BSG and DS9 share A LOT of similarities, including entire episode plots. Go figure, since Ronald Moore who ran BSG also co-ran DS9.
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Star Trek Discovery |OT| To Boldly go into the new streaming era
- Thread starter berzeli
- Start date
BSG and DS9 share A LOT of similarities, including entire episode plots. Go figure, since Ronald Moore who ran BSG also co-ran DS9.
I could see the similarities, especially since the parts I hated about DS9 were the same parts that made me stop watching BSG lol
As I understand it, BSG hones in on a similar sense of military intrigue and realpolitik to some stuff that comes in from time to time in Star Trek. Episodes like The Defector or In The Pale Moonlight, more than The Inner Light or Trials and Tribble-ations. More Wrath of Khan than The Voyage Home. And admittedly, realising there is that sort of segmentation in what people actually like in Star Trek was one of the more interesting thoughts to cross my mind over the last year.
I hope they go back and the real ISS Discovery has finished the war through sheer brutality, thus inadvertently earning the Federation the respect of the Klingons and ending it all. (Go Captain Killy!)
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lmao that would be hilarious
The producers did say the Klingon war arc would be over by the end of the season.
Traveling to Post-Voyager would be cool but I can't see ending them getting back from the MU, ending the Klingon war, and spore-traveling to somewhere else happening in 3 episodes.
That would be pretty funny and a interesting swerve. Leaving the USS Discovery having to answer for their actions. I still think to a degree that has to or likely should happen. They've been missing for to long and if the ISS Discovery is indeed in the prime universe no way they haven't gotten into some crap by now.
How long have they been in the MU? A few weeks at least right? Also why did the MU Discovery switch with the Prime one? The MU Discovery didn't have a spore drive...
In fairness, we don't know that it did. The exact phrasing is that our Discovery appeared in the last known position of their discovery, so the natural suggestion is that there was a swap, but there could've been some temporal anomaly that just ate the other discovery or something.
Sometimes? Yes.
LOL. In no way is this true. In fact, most of the issues folks have with Discovery are worse in BSG. I'd say it's even darker.
Random reviewer quote:
And Dirk Benedict on why it was nothing like the original, which sounds pretty rich given some of the response to Disco:
Plus, I watched BSG in real-time, you remember the best but not all the nonsense in-between.
Indeed. It's more arc-driven than not, but it's pretty much a modern version of TOS.
BSG feels thematically and tonally completely different than Deep Space Nine imo. The argument that Deep Space Nine is the "darkest" of the trek shows is fine but BSG outside of Ron Moore's dna itself, it always felt like a rejection of Trek world view and mostly an Apocalypse story. 9/11 always loomed large over BSG.
The reason I don't think Discovery is "Trek" is because I don't think it is about anything on a deeper, non-2018-television-has-to-be-like-LOST kind of way.
I assume Michael is meant to be an example of why you can't remove humanity from a human, because you are left with an emotionally stunted and potentially unstable personality, but I just don't feel like it's gone anywhere - particularly when the one time she allows herself to be human is taken away from her since, oops, the guy she likes is actually a Klingon.
Lorca's "darkness" is explained away because he's just inherently evil due to Mirror Universe shenanigans, which leaves Mudd, who is driven by personal greed... but in his one episode, we find that he takes joy from finding different ways of murdering people while trapped in a time loop trying to find a way to steal the Discovery, so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from that. That even in a utopian society, there will always be capitalist psychopaths?
I don't know if I need episodes that just scream "THIS IS ABOUT GAY MARRIAGE" or "THIS IS ABOUT ABORTION" or "THIS IS ABOUT RACISM" like they are pumping out on Orville, but when Star Wars: The Last Jedi seems to have more of a didactic allegorical point than a Star Trek show? I can't help but be disappointed.
I assume Michael is meant to be an example of why you can't remove humanity from a human, because you are left with an emotionally stunted and potentially unstable personality, but I just don't feel like it's gone anywhere - particularly when the one time she allows herself to be human is taken away from her since, oops, the guy she likes is actually a Klingon.
Lorca's "darkness" is explained away because he's just inherently evil due to Mirror Universe shenanigans, which leaves Mudd, who is driven by personal greed... but in his one episode, we find that he takes joy from finding different ways of murdering people while trapped in a time loop trying to find a way to steal the Discovery, so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from that. That even in a utopian society, there will always be capitalist psychopaths?
I don't know if I need episodes that just scream "THIS IS ABOUT GAY MARRIAGE" or "THIS IS ABOUT ABORTION" or "THIS IS ABOUT RACISM" like they are pumping out on Orville, but when Star Wars: The Last Jedi seems to have more of a didactic allegorical point than a Star Trek show? I can't help but be disappointed.
I don't really take the position of arguing what people like or don't like. If people like something cool. If they don't that's cool too. All I do is give my opinion and take.
I'm old enough to remember when TNG began I didn't like it because it didn't remind me of the elements I enjoyed from TOS. It felt weird to me. It felt dull. And the cast felt like perfect aliens to me. Over time I grew to quite like the show especially as it improved.
Discovery for me is a fun entertaining show that is certainly more action adventurish than TNG but I actually always kind of missed that from that era of trek which often felt sterile to me.
So my attitude is always like what you like. Don't like what you don't like. Just don't be overly obnoxious about it.
I'm old enough to remember when TNG began I didn't like it because it didn't remind me of the elements I enjoyed from TOS. It felt weird to me. It felt dull. And the cast felt like perfect aliens to me. Over time I grew to quite like the show especially as it improved.
Discovery for me is a fun entertaining show that is certainly more action adventurish than TNG but I actually always kind of missed that from that era of trek which often felt sterile to me.
So my attitude is always like what you like. Don't like what you don't like. Just don't be overly obnoxious about it.
I do agree that, to me, the best Star Trek episodes are usually the ones that are an allegory for real world issues. The lack of these plot lines isn't enough to turn me off Discovery, but I hope once the show finds its groove that we can get some stories that try to say something about our world today
I think the issue is that you are using a brand, and that inevitably comes with expectations. The trend in modern fiction is to subvert expectations in order to "surprise audiences" - since a lot of it is the generation that grew up with a property now being given the chance to put their own stamp on it - but you can't help but at least annoy people who feel a bit put off by the changes.
TNG is completely different from TOS, particularly after Roddenberry was Kutaragi'ed and moved to a window office where he couldn't do anything anymore, but it was still seen as this politically forward show that tried to tell allegorical science fiction stories. DS9, VOY, and ENT followed the same trajectory, even though they did it different.
It's why I think Orville is more "Star Trek" than Discovery. That's not necessarily a judgement about the quality of either, since it's clear Discovery is just better put together than Orville. It's more about how each show is fulfilling the obligations of the franchise (or the reference) in their actual production.
I don't know I was rewatching Enterprise recently and the post 9/11 themes were a bit grating today.
There was that Enterprise episode with the Vulcan telepathy disease and every scene was practically screaming 'HEY THIS IS ABOUT HIV! DO YOU GET IT YET?'
I think another way of putting it would be that Discovery's season wide balance of plot vs themes leans very much in favour of plot at the moment, with its primary themes being those that are stretched out alongside that season length - primarily the diversity and multiculturalism as good position aceface mentions above. So you can't go into it with quite the same idea of 'what is this episode about' when that's not really the approach involved at all; each episode is very much treated as part of the bigger picture for whatever ideas it's got going on.
It's not inherently better or worse than prior series as a general storytelling approach, but it does somewhat remove the ability of an episode to stand entirely on its own terms, for better or for worse. You probably won't get an equivalent to episodes like 'The Measure of a Man' - where it zooms in on sentient rights for 40 or so minutes - without at least some shift in format; yes there's the stuff with the tardigrade, but it's still rooted in the wider war story. Things have to be resolved in a way that enables the continuing story - hence Stamets, which then gets the ball rolling into more plot.
It's not inherently better or worse than prior series as a general storytelling approach, but it does somewhat remove the ability of an episode to stand entirely on its own terms, for better or for worse. You probably won't get an equivalent to episodes like 'The Measure of a Man' - where it zooms in on sentient rights for 40 or so minutes - without at least some shift in format; yes there's the stuff with the tardigrade, but it's still rooted in the wider war story. Things have to be resolved in a way that enables the continuing story - hence Stamets, which then gets the ball rolling into more plot.
I've said this before but watching Orville has taught me that the last thing I wanted from Discovery is a continuation of that style of Trek. Which is not the diss at the Orville it sounds like. I like Orville. I think its a good piece of nostalgia television. I'm glad it exists and I hope it does help to fill some of that void of yearning for trek that some people want. But for Trek itself, its not what I wanted. Especially coming after so many years of that type of Trek. I totally get that for people who grew up with that Trek. That seems like the PERFECT way to do Trek. But it was never that for me. There are certainly good elements to pull from it.
Deep Space Nine never reached the sheer bleakness of BSG. There was always hope in DS9, and despite Section 31 and the Romulan deception it was always insinuated the federation are still overwhelmingly good.
This is true and one of the inherent issues when you switch from episodic to serial and I really get that. I do. Old trek is like one hour little plays on a subject. And there is absolutely merit to that. But I also think there is a nostalgia think that happens where people forget the flaws of that system.
Where with so many standalone episodes it constantly feels like we are resetting the universe. Or constant episodes where you recognize the dilemma 5 minutes into the episode and now have to wait 40 minutes for it to slog its way to an inevitable reset conclusion by some last second shenanigans. Or the constant guest spot episodes of the week where we meet some long lost brother of the cast we've never heard from and will never hear about after or a love interest that pops in a for an episode to also never been seen again. There are so many throw away trek episodes when you are episodic that people forgot is the cost of doing business.
Which is not to say I could never envision a trek show that was episodic. My actual favorite initial rumour was that the new trek show was going to be a season analogy trek show. I thought that was a really interesting idea that would free them up to do completely different kind of trek stories. I think a version like that would ultimately get a lot of hate because Trek fans are creatures of habit but personally I was always intrigued by that idea.
That's the thing though, I don't know what this *season* is about - if it's about anything at all. Even the JJ Trek films, as shallow as they are, are about "destiny" and "family". (The more I think about it, the more Star Trek: Beyond feels like a Fast and Furious film lol).
Is Stamets supposed to be about the dangers of science and scientific experimentation? Since the entire season hinges on the mycelial network, is that supposed to be the "A bomb" of the future, which is why no one - for hundreds of years - mentions it?
I think it's because I watch too much TV, and every show is basically doing what Orville is trying to do too, so it's just really, really tiring to me. Particularly when the plot points are built on twists and trying to shock the audience.
The primary theme I would say, aside of diversity and multiculturalism vs ethnic-nationalism, is the question of to what extent one goes to in the defense of what they value, whether that is ideals, loved ones, or something else. The question that is regularly asked through many episodes of the show is 'Are these characters willing to go that far?'. Often enough that answer is yes, so the show tries to vary things up by showing how that isn't always the correct answer. The prologue ends with Michael facing a court martial because she fought the ends justified the means. Landry was willing to go far enough to kill the tardigrade to repurpose it for weaponry, and it got her killed. Michael was willing to go far enough to use the tardigrade in general, and realised that while justified by necessity, it was also ethically fucked - thus she has to backtrack on it and find an alternative. Lorca will go that far to keep his ship, and it's one of the most significant markers that something is wrong with him. And of course, Voq will go so far as to become human to avenge T'Kuvma's death. Such is all set against the backdrop of the necessity of a war that must be won. So, how far are they willing to go?
I mean, on the war front, I still think that pales in comparison to In The Pale Moonlight (that was an accident, really). I think the fact that we know the Federation not only wins, but becomes this Utopian paradise by the time TOS comes around, also renders a lot of that inconsequential because we know that everyone will end up making the right choice.
Unless, of course, maybe the Discovery is trapped in the Mirror Universe forever and the show becomes about how they try to save humanity from being evil and cruel. Then I can see the possibilities.
I think the thrust, which yes, was explored well in DS9, is, "What does utopia cost and are we willing to pay that price?"
I like it slightly better than "Mirror Universe sets are darker because they're just evil".
Go back and watch DS9 Season 1 again. You won't really like many of the characters by episode... 10 are we on? Dax was probably the most enjoyable character, maybe O'Brien, but he had TNG to draw upon. Which is to say, it's probably not best to equate 4-5 seasons of character development with less than a dozen episodes.
I still hold out a vague hope we get somebody from the Mirror Universe who visits the Prime Universe someday, and stays because they like it so much better than the MU. I mean, they could still technically pull that off with Lorca, but I highly doubt it given how last episode's ending drove home the point of him being a manipulative asshole not to be trusted.
We let Quark go, even though he wasn't a member of Starfleet.
I don't know. You can build a narrative around how the mental effect of them having to sit around in the dark all the time made everyone evil and mistrusting. Or something. I thought it was a cool callback to like, episode 2 with Lorca.
I still think they'll do something like that with Lorca, a big theme in the show is the role of environment/culture and how it shapes people. Lorca even had a line about hoping to find a better version of himself in the Mirror universe.
Though admittedly a significant reason I think this is because I just want more Jason Isaacs as Lorca. :p
I rewatched it a few months ago. I liked a good chunk of the cast (Sisko, Jake, O'Brien, Kira) early on a hell of a lot more than anyone on Discovery, who I'm still struggling to connect with. At this point, I'm declaring it a lost cause, at least for the remainder of the season. Maybe season 2 will win me over.
Star Trek Online is live with both DS9 and Star Trek Discovery content
The 3 ships - Discovery, Sarcophagus Ship, Shenzhou
DS9 plays a big part of the latest Featured Episode and the upcoming summer expansion... rumor has it, we will finally have a bigger reason to go back to the Gamma Quadrant and see more of it
The 3 ships - Discovery, Sarcophagus Ship, Shenzhou
DS9 plays a big part of the latest Featured Episode and the upcoming summer expansion... rumor has it, we will finally have a bigger reason to go back to the Gamma Quadrant and see more of it
I rewatched it with a non-Star Trek fan earlier last year and the response was A) "When does this get good?" and B) "Why are they all so angry at each other?" They started to vibe during the end of the first Season.
Lorca is literally a blank slate, unless they try to redeem mirror Lorca.
I kind of wish they played that up more, considering the Bajorans see the Federation as basically another occupying force. Then again, a lot of that gets thrown out when the Dominion shows up anyway.
I would rather have that as the Bajoran religious stuff is soooooooooooo boring on a rewatch. Dominion and the Cardassians is where it's at.
It's like the Klingon-only scenes in Disco. I get the idea, but soooooooooo boring.
Yeah, even if people called it it was still good and well done. Just hope Isaacs stays on somehow and doesn't leave after just one season.
I quickly realized that it didn't seem to be the case when they showed ours back on Discovery, but I too at first thought that there was a slight possibility Stamets might have accidentally switched bodies with himself when he first got off the table, hehe.
They haven't said anything that I've seen but I think it will. A couple of big shows have started to get them and I think these visually impressive shows are likely to start getting them now going forward, so I think Discovery will get one. At least I hope so.
On the CBS All-Access stream the show looks really quite good on my OLED, I could only image how sweet it would look in even better PQ and actually with HDR given the great contrast/lighting/colors.
Yeah, both Enterprise and Discovery's mirror episodes have been great to watch.
Yeah. I hope Isaacs stays somehow since he adds so much presence just like the previous stars and we still haven't spent a lot of time with other characters (besides Michael, formerly Tyler, and some Saru) but if it had to happen Saru would be kind of cool, just like it's been fun to watch him do it a bit in these episodes.
Yeah, it can definitely be a different experience. As for myself I watched week-to-week and overall loved Korra.
S2 was the one season I went back and forth on while watching, which purposefully pulled back on some of Korra's character development from S1 which was clearly in order to have more room to work when the show got its full extension. It could have been done smoother and I think is the main reason for the S2 complaints, which "Bryko" have also pretty much confirmed was their most challenging season for multiple reasons anyway.
The religion stuff was stupid, but I liked the idea of an oppressed/occupied people. It's too bad Michelle Forbes decided to quit DS9, because that would have been an interesting angle to take. Instead I guess we got Kira, and then most of the Federation as occupier stuff got shifted to Eddington.
Oh yeah I meant MU Lorca, we still don't know why he wants to overthrow Georgiou, he could very well prefer the ideals of the PU federation