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Oct 25, 2017
8,621
So...what happens to Michael now...? I mean Lorca is the only reason she didn't make it to prison (or penal colony), yeah she helped bring back Discovery and I'm going to assume she'll be a big reason why the war ends with the Klingons (was even mentioned in the trailer). Does Starfleet just pardon her? How does she get to stay on Discovery as a civilian? No way is that enough to reinstate her into Starfleet...let alone with any kind of rank.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,029
So...what happens to Michael now...? I mean Lorca is the only reason she didn't make it to prison (or penal colony), yeah she helped bring back Discovery and I'm going to assume she'll be a big reason why the war ends with the Klingons (was even mentioned in the trailer). Does Starfleet just pardon her? How does she get to stay on Discovery as a civilian? No way is that enough to reinstate her into Starfleet...let alone with any kind of rank.

Commendation from Saru suggesting that she be permitted back into the ranks, albeit at ensign all over again, based on the contributions she has made and her general behaviour aboard Discovery?

...Then again, disobeying orders was also the one charge sustained against Admiral (and thereafter, Captain) Kirk.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,621
Three inconsistencies ... two of which have to do with the Defiant ... which makes me think it was tacked on.

If the Defiant that crossed over to the Mirror Universe was from some time in the future, wouldn't the Emperor have looked up herself and Burnham? She seemed surprised that Burnham betrayed her in both universes. The other thing was Mirror Burnham's dog tag, Mirror Universe emblem. Kind of implied Georgieu recovered Mirror Burnham's body.

The other thing has to do with Lorca and Admiral Cornwell. How good at improving was he? He got the history of Lorca down (I doubt Mirror Lorca's family was in the fortune cookie business) ... but there would be so many details and nuances about his romantic interest (who happens to be his superior) that wouldn't be in any current Starfleet database.

I thought the same thing for the emblem but she could have just had another one made or it was an extra one, the one she had looked brand new, unlike the one Michael carries of PU Georgieu.

As for Lorca, I imagine he had access to all his personal logs.

As for your first point....who knows lol

Commendation from Saru suggesting that she be permitted back into the ranks, albeit at ensign all over again, based on the contributions she has made and her general behaviour aboard Discovery?

...Then again, disobeying orders was also the one charge sustained against Admiral (and thereafter, Captain) Kirk.

Yeah I suppose Saru could but I don't know if that would be enough to not just forgive a life sentence...but get her stationed on Discovery. I don't know, we'll see how it goes.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,029
Three inconsistencies ... two of which have to do with the Defiant ... which makes me think it was tacked on.

If the Defiant that crossed over to the Mirror Universe was from some time in the future, wouldn't the Emperor have looked up herself and Burnham? She seemed surprised that Burnham betrayed her in both universes. The other thing was Mirror Burnham's dog tag, Mirror Universe emblem. Kind of implied Georgieu recovered Mirror Burnham's body.

The other thing has to do with Lorca and Admiral Cornwell. How good at improving was he? He got the history of Lorca down (I doubt Mirror Lorca's family was in the fortune cookie business) ... but there would be so many details and nuances about his romantic interest (who happens to be his superior) that wouldn't be in any current Starfleet database.

The Defiant landed in the Mirror Universe almost a century prior - it was literally found by Archer's counterpart. So Georgieu didn't discover it, but inherited it, so less an immediate urge or rush to study personnel files - indeed, she might not have cared for any details other than 'there exists another universe and in it, a body that is everything we are opposed to'.

As for Lorca... that's actually hard to say given we don't know the full truth of what happened on the USS Buran. He may have had the chance to study his counterpart's personal logs, if he swapped places with them. Alternatively, he talked with his counterpart, checking what facts did or didn't align, and learning what he would have to address from there. "We still got that chinese restaurant?" "Sure do. You ever know a woman named Katrina?" Etc
 

Deleted member 14568

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,910
The other thing has to do with Lorca and Admiral Cornwell. How good at improving was he? He got the history of Lorca down (I doubt Mirror Lorca's family was in the fortune cookie business) ... but there would be so many details and nuances about his romantic interest (who happens to be his superior) that wouldn't be in any current Starfleet database.

i guess it could be explained by MU lorca reading the personal log of PU lorca on the PU buran...
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
The other thing has to do with Lorca and Admiral Cornwell. How good at improving was he? He got the history of Lorca down (I doubt Mirror Lorca's family was in the fortune cookie business) ... but there would be so many details and nuances about his romantic interest (who happens to be his superior) that wouldn't be in any current Starfleet database.

Well, I mean, to be fair - as soon as they have private time she says he's not like the man she knew, and then goes as far as to say she's going to have him removed from captain and that he needs help, and she probably made the first move to initiate the first time they met and he rolled with it, one would think.

The dialogue in bed is the biggest red flag of all we have prior to the reveal, though:

"All these months I have ignored the signs, but I can't any more. The truth is, you are not the man I used to know."
"Of course I am."
"I'm not like the rest at Starfleet, blinded by your victories. You lied on those psych evaluations, and you did it so brilliantly that you fooled everyone. It's worse than I even thought. Your behavior is pathological."

He only escapes all this because she then gets captured.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,619
The amount of evil captains and admirals in Star Fleet as got to be in the 20s by now at least Lorca has the I'm from the evil universe excuse.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
The amount of evil captains and admirals in Star Fleet as got to be in the 20s by now at least Lorca has the I'm from the evil universe excuse.

Yeah, that's why I was never really bothered by Lorca being "morally grey/evil".

There was an entire movie about Starfleet officers sabotaging a peace treaty just to continue the war with the Klingons, plus all the other crazy captains in TNG, DS9 and Voyager.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
The problem with Discovery isn't that it wants to be Star Wars, I don't particularly think it does, other than acknowledging that fight scenes can be cool and going all 40K with the design of the Terran command vessel.

The problem is that there are clear throughlines from other modern serialized TV and how it handles characters and what it thinks constitutes meaningful drama and its become very concerning very fast. This isn't even an argument against serialization in general, this is very specifically about the state of genre TV in the last...decade or so. Its the school of thought that says that fun characters having fun interactions means that you can pretty flatly ignore major ethical problems and gloss through emotional beats or just deploy them without proper dramatic construction because people like the characters damnit and that's enough

I'm reminded, worryingly, of why I fell so hard off of The Flash
 

Won

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,428
That was a waste of both a great actor and an interesting character. I think that was the first episode I really disliked. :(

The show feels too messy, almost incoherent, with all the plot threads, twists, cliffhangers and character deaths, with no real breathing room for any of it. I hope they dial it down for the second season.

At least we finally get Captain Saru and the crew members got some lines.
 

Medalion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,203
Every evil human is from the Mirror Universe, only explanation... even all those Admirals and Section 31

Humanity is peak bland and goodie goodie in the Future
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,656
So...what happens to Michael now...? I mean Lorca is the only reason she didn't make it to prison (or penal colony), yeah she helped bring back Discovery and I'm going to assume she'll be a big reason why the war ends with the Klingons (was even mentioned in the trailer). Does Starfleet just pardon her? How does she get to stay on Discovery as a civilian? No way is that enough to reinstate her into Starfleet...let alone with any kind of rank.


I think the show needs to really buckle down and focus on her character in the next couple episodes. There's a lot to resolve there. It'll be easy to handwave away the issue of keeping her on the ship, but her character development still has some major ground to cover. I see people talking about her "redemption." How does saving the racist murderer duplicate of someone she previously failed redeem her at all? That failure was a side effect of her large ego, her disrespect of authority, and her brash attitude. Traits she still demonstrates on a fairly regular basis.

I don't understand how I'm supposed to think she's redeemed at all (yet). Maybe saving the Emperor makes her feel a little superficially better about herself, but what has she learned? Anything? Mainly it just seems like another impulsive split second decision that prioritizes her own emotions and puts her friends in serious danger. Again.

She's supposed to be our protagonist but I find myself desperate for justice to catch up with her instead. Thanks to Lorca bailing her out she just keeps getting away with this shit and because she's talented, the crew give her a pass.

I think the next couple episodes are crucial for her development. She's free of Lorca's influence now and Saru has begun to trust her. She's finally free to show us how she's really changed. I'm eager for it but I'm not buying it yet. She needs to realize what a total jackass she is, and actually be better. Not just be sad about stuff while still acting exactly the same as she always did. I don't care how sad she is if nothing is coming of it.

There was like, one episode of this season so far where it actually seemed like the writers wanted to progress her character forward. It was also the episode with the reset button.
 

Jackpot

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,827
Airiam is the cyborg... lady, who helps run the spore drive from the bridge. Sources are inconsistent on whether she's a human or alien - that's how little has been firmly established about her.

I believe she's a Tulian, a cousin of the Bolians who went in for transhumanism.

The only bridge officers I can remember are the black one with the nice hair, injured Shenzhou redhead, and asian tactical officer.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,128
If the Defiant that crossed over to the Mirror Universe was from some time in the future, wouldn't the Emperor have looked up herself and Burnham? She seemed surprised that Burnham betrayed her in both universes. The other thing was Mirror Burnham's dog tag, Mirror Universe emblem. Kind of implied Georgieu recovered Mirror Burnham's body.
When on board the Defiant, Archer ordered the Starfleet historical database be deleted. Even though he died shortly after, I imagine that'd be something Hoshi would have done for similar reasons.
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,937
Anyone else appreciate that Landry was basically evil (or at least morally questionable) in both universes?
 

Jackpot

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,827
Anyone else appreciate that Landry was basically evil (or at least morally questionable) in both universes?

The opposite. Her Prime Universe appearance was crueler than Lorca's so I was hoping she had come with him from the Mirror Universe. But nope, Starfleet really does employ people that stupid and callous.
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,020
I think the show needs to really buckle down and focus on her character in the next couple episodes. There's a lot to resolve there. It'll be easy to handwave away the issue of keeping her on the ship, but her character development still has some major ground to cover. I see people talking about her "redemption." How does saving the racist murderer duplicate of someone she previously failed redeem her at all? That failure was a side effect of her large ego, her disrespect of authority, and her brash attitude. Traits she still demonstrates on a fairly regular basis.

I don't understand how I'm supposed to think she's redeemed at all (yet). Maybe saving the Emperor makes her feel a little superficially better about herself, but what has she learned? Anything? Mainly it just seems like another impulsive split second decision that prioritizes her own emotions and puts her friends in serious danger. Again.

She's supposed to be our protagonist but I find myself desperate for justice to catch up with her instead. Thanks to Lorca bailing her out she just keeps getting away with this shit and because she's talented, the crew give her a pass.

I think the next couple episodes are crucial for her development. She's free of Lorca's influence now and Saru has begun to trust her. She's finally free to show us how she's really changed. I'm eager for it but I'm not buying it yet. She needs to realize what a total jackass she is, and actually be better. Not just be sad about stuff while still acting exactly the same as she always did. I don't care how sad she is if nothing is coming of it.

There was like, one episode of this season so far where it actually seemed like the writers wanted to progress her character forward. It was also the episode with the reset button.

It's almost a given that the ending of the first season will be a literary callback to Michael's mistakes in the pilot. Probably that she'll stop mirror Georgiou from doing something heinous -- like the bioweapon from this episode -- but this time with the support of the Discovery crew.
 

JustSomeone

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
910
Didn't they clearly show in the previous episode that the stamets on the emperor's mothership is the "real" stamets and not the alternate one?
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,937
Didn't they clearly show in the previous episode that the stamets on the emperor's mothership is the "real" stamets and not the alternate one?

No it was just a slightly awkward cut. Mirror Stamets said "he did it" and they showed him wake up first, so I can see how it would be easy to assume it was Prime Stamets (I did initially). Strange editing.
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,256
Didn't they clearly show in the previous episode that the stamets on the emperor's mothership is the "real" stamets and not the alternate one?

I'm glad it wasn't just me. I thought that each Stamet was restored to the opposite's body and that a subplot would be our Stamets trying to get back to the Discovery.

EDIT: Ok I watched the ending of the last episode. I missed the scene where Stamet wakes up and tells Tilly "I know about Hugh".
 
Last edited:

8bit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,390
The Stamets on disco in this episode was the prime one, the terran one wouldn't have had the connection to Hugh.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,656
It's almost a given that the ending of the first season will be a literary callback to Michael's mistakes in the pilot. Probably that she'll stop mirror Georgiou from doing something heinous -- like the bioweapon from this episode -- but this time with the support of the Discovery crew.

I'd really like that a lot. She saved the Emperor in yet another moment of brash reactionary emotion without consideration or respect for her peers. If that choice quickly came back to bite her in the ass and she was the one who had to fix it, realizing how those kind of headstrong actions keep fucking everything up, it would be great for her character.
And because of the whole sentimental stuff surrounding Georgiou it would be dramatic as hell. Taking her down again, but for the right reasons this time. Putting aside her own baggage in order to represent starfleet properly and not making the call alone this time. Yep, that'd work out pretty well. I hope you're right!
 

Lump

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,041
What will happen to Lorca's tribble?

It's how Starfleet wins the war. The Tribble Plague that decimated the Klingons was established in DS9 Trials and Tribble-ations. The timeline of Worf's description of the Tribble plague lines up exactly with Discovery's timeline.

Odo has Worf sit down before he attracts any further attention. Sitting down, Worf asks where Odo got it; he tells Worf that he got it from one Cyrano Jones, who said that tribbles like everyone – but apparently not Worf, a feeling which Worf shares. He calls the tribble a "detestable creature," noting that feeding a tribble more than the smallest morsel will cause prolific reproduction. Worf tells Odo how tribbles were considered mortal enemies of the Klingon Empire, which Odo is amazed to hear, finding it hard to believe that a simple tribble could be someone's "mortal enemy." Worf further explains that the Empire considered tribbles to be an ecological menace and that many warriors were sent out to kill any and all tribbles that they could find. Once the tribble homeworld was located, a Klingon armada obliterated it. According to Worf, tribbles were considered extinct by the end of the 23rd century, which Odo sarcastically calls "another glorious chapter in Klingon history," and then proceeds to ask Worf mockingly, "Tell me, do they still sing songs about The Great Tribble Hunt?"
 

Bob_Coffee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
682
last nights ep was so good. Saru's picard-esque speech, Michelle yeoh doing what looks like kicking phaser blasts with her feet, lorca using TOS double handed axe chop was good stuff. also Saru's FIRE line was so good lol. I also liked how lorca got taken out like a little bitch. i think whats going to happen, is after spending a bit of time in the PU, they send the empress back, and she regains control of the Terran empire and becomes a little more lenient leading into the TOS Terran empire we see kirk travel to. ie aliens serving on terran empire ships instead of being food.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,094
Lorca is a sympathetic character. Other than inherently being a mirror universe version, he really doesn't seem undeniably evil. Or at least didn't before this episode. He seemed to still have compassion, even here he genuinely cares about his people, and his farewell to Discovery seemed sincere too. He went to a universe and back to free his people and topple this evil Emperor. But we're supposed to be against him because he lied to Michael and Discovery and brought them here to do this? Yeah it was underhanded, but you at least get where he's coming from. Even Michael admits she would have helped him get home, right before he dies -- which is exactly the correct response.
Did you miss Lorca's speech over the intercom, his talk with Michael in the hallway screen, and his comments to the Empress? Lorca is straight up evil, there is no question about that. His first words in that speech is to tell the Empress how unimpressed he was in her allowing aliens to mingle with Terrans. He tells Michael that the Federation will fail because there is a hierarchy amongst the species, and that hierarchy must be maintained.
 

Guppeth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,848
Sheffield, UK
My prediction for next week is that all the most worst Klingons are at Earth and about to win by blowing up the Earth. Discovery arrives and fights hard but they can't win against so many worst Klingons. Then when hope is lost the spores arrives and surround the worst flagship and suicide like the end of Warcraft 3 and the rest of the Klingons run.

Then the last spores come and Stamets says can we use spore drives and the spores say yes in one thousand years from now and then they disappear.

I will quote this post triumphantly in one week.
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,937
I always assumed the Tribble plague happened because Scotty beamed then all over to the Klingon ship. You don't call the Enterprise a garbage scow and get away with it
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,142
Sydney
Did you miss Lorca's speech over the intercom, his talk with Michael in the hallway screen, and his comments to the Empress? Lorca is straight up evil, there is no question about that. His first words in that speech is to tell the Empress how unimpressed he was in her allowing aliens to mingle with Terrans. He tells Michael that the Federation will fail because there is a hierarchy amongst the species, and that hierarchy must be maintained.

Yeah it ain't rocket science he was pretending to be good because he was stuck in the Federation.

Like if he started giving speeches about the innate inferiority of alien species and how cultural integration was bad that might have been a red flag.
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
Did you miss Lorca's speech over the intercom, his talk with Michael in the hallway screen, and his comments to the Empress? Lorca is straight up evil, there is no question about that. His first words in that speech is to tell the Empress how unimpressed he was in her allowing aliens to mingle with Terrans. He tells Michael that the Federation will fail because there is a hierarchy amongst the species, and that hierarchy must be maintained.
That's why I said:

"Or at least didn't before this episode. He seemed to still have compassion, even here he genuinely cares about his people, and his farewell to Discovery seemed sincere too."

I'm aware they made him a mustache twirling evil villain at the end. But he seemed like a more complex character prior to that in the series... and it doesn't even gel with some of his depiction earlier in the series where he clearly cares about saving people and several times left an alien in command. Additionally, I still don't see how he's "worse" than the Empress who clearly had no compassion, killed a room full of her closest advisors just because Michael revealed in front of them there was another universe, and orbital bombarded a planet.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,094
If the show makes one major misstep it will be falling into the trap of so many cheap genre dramas before it of trying to "redeem" horrific characters while ignoring the actual content of their actions
giphy.gif


Who knows, maybe the Empress can go from vicious murderer to fan (some not all) darling like the guy above as well lol.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,029
That's why I said:

"Or at least didn't before this episode. He seemed to still have compassion, even here he genuinely cares about his people, and his farewell to Discovery seemed sincere too."

I'm aware they made him a mustache twirling evil villain at the end. But he seemed like a more complex character prior to that in the series... and it doesn't even gel with some of his depiction earlier in the series where he clearly cares about saving people and several times left an alien in command. Additionally, I still don't see how he's "worse" than the Empress who clearly had no compassion, killed a room full of her closest advisors just because Michael revealed in front of them there was another universe, and orbital bombarded a planet.

Honestly the situation with the Pahvans seems so... curious, in hindsight. Like, the show could probably get a small but powerful moment if someone were to comment on the fact that Lorca more than vaguely 'abused our idealism', as Saru put it, but was able to hide his hateful bigotry in the cloak of the progressive values of his peers, and other vague abstracts that could be easily recontextualised into something darker. He knew how say the right words and do the right deeds so that he looked like a good person, all the while harbouring utter contempt for like a third of the people of the people on his bridge. Because that is how bigotry so often survives in the 21st century, and seemingly even in the 23rd - by hiding, until it no longer has to. How even 'heroes' of the right time and place can turn out to be disgusted by the very people they were saving. See: "I'm Milwall!"
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
Honestly the situation with the Pahvans seems so... curious, in hindsight. Like, the show could probably get a small but powerful moment if someone were to comment on the fact that Lorca more than vaguely 'abused our idealism', as Saru put it, but was able to hide his hateful bigotry in the cloak of the progressive values of his peers, and other vague abstracts that could be easily recontextualised into something darker. He knew how say the right words and do the right deeds so that he looked like a good person, all the while harbouring utter contempt for like a third of the people of the people on his bridge. Because that is how bigotry so often survives in the 21st century, and seemingly even in the 23rd - by hiding, until it no longer has to. How even 'heroes' of the right time and place can turn out to be disgusted by the very people they were saving. See: "I'm Milwall!"
I just don't buy that someone like that would choose an alien first officer and leave him in command multiple times.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,621
He could have made Saru XO just to entice Michael to stay on Discovery. His plan revolved around getting Michael to the MU with him.
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
He could have made Saru XO just to entice Michael to stay on Discovery. His plan revolved around getting Michael to the MU with him.
Did he read the script? lol. I barely even got the sense that Saru was a part of his persuasion to have her stay. It was more, want to go rot in a cell, or want to stay and help stop this war you started?