Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

I have no grand solution either I'm afraid, but I'm not gonna stop talking about it when it gets brought up in this thread and others. If you go down the road of "well people are always gonna be racist, sexist, homophobic etc. so what's the point in speaking up?" Nothing will ever change. Discussion, even if it is just in one thread on one forum among millions, is worth something.

MattWilsonCSS said:

You've been relatively good about this to this point, Cosmic Blizzard, but you're toe-tipping the edge of "you can't do anything to stop it, so stop talking about it"

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Not my intention at all. It's more that it just seems like a hollow discussion to me. I've been in many discussions like that for over half a decade and in the end, it ultimately comes down to just shaming people for their tastes in games. No solutions proposed, not even a real pinpointing of the issue itself; just endless attacking and defending. "That's creepy!" "It's not real!" "That doesn't matter, still creepy!" ad infinitum. It's the absolute lowest form of discourse.

With mainstream products, the problem is identified clearly and concisely. "This product has minimal aspects that make people uncomfortable, thus turning people away that would otherwise enjoy it." It makes sense to address that problem from multiple areas, with of course capitalism being the best motivation corporations will get. Widening the scope of your audience will never be a bad thing...

...Unless you're going after a very focused and dedicated demographic, whether because it's in an area you can actually compete in or because that's just what you want to make. The rules are different when it comes to criticism of niche products. First of all, the fanbase and their desires will have the full backing of the publisher, whether it be Xseed, NISA, Pqube, Idea Factory International, Mangagamer, etc. Second, the criticism will come from the outside, not the inside. The perception from the fanbase will suddenly be outsiders encroaching on their safe space which is the only place said products exist, which is what causes them to get defensive, which will further push the publishers to reassure them about things like being anti-censorship and all that jazz, and all everyone is left with is a hostile environment for all.

So with that, we circle back around to the beginning where the most insightful bit of commentary you're going to get is "that's creepy". And I mean that's fine if people just want to vent about the existence of things like that, I'm not going to stop anyone. I've certainly done it before about things I didn't care about, but I don't really see much purpose in dwelling on it.

MattWilsonCSS said:

You've been relatively good about this to this point, Cosmic Blizzard, but you're toe-tipping the edge of "you can't do anything to stop it, so stop talking about it"

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This.
I appreciate a lengthy well thought out reply. And Cosmic Blizzard is not without valid points but the fact remains that I desire to do better myself and would also like to see others constructively do better also. If you can get someone to see the small fish is toxic to consume then maybe in time you can get them to see that the big and very popular fish is perhaps bad for them too. (Nothing against actual fish.)
I don't want people to feel shamed for their consumption, nor do I want to see developers out of work. No joy is derived from that manner of pain.
But every human could benefit from reflection into whether or not the things they partake in could be harmful to others.

MattWilsonCSS said:

You've been relatively good about this to this point, Cosmic Blizzard, but you're toe-tipping the edge of "you can't do anything to stop it, so stop talking about it"

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Not really toe tipping. He's outright stated before that he believes humans are always going to be selfish and there's no point in trying to convince people otherwise. Especially in "meaningless" media.

cosmicblizzard said:

Not my intention at all. It's more that it just seems like a hollow discussion to me. I've been in many discussions like that for over a decade and in the end, it ultimately comes down to just shaming people for their tastes in games. No solutions proposed, not even a real pinpointing of the issue itself; just endless attacking and defending. "That's creepy!" "It's not real!" "That doesn't matter, still creepy!" ad infinitum. It's the absolute lowest form of discourse.

With mainstream products, the problem is identified clearly and concisely. "This product has minimal aspects that make people uncomfortable, thus turning people away that would otherwise enjoy it." It makes sense to address that problem from multiple areas, with of course capitalism being the best motivation corporations will get. Widening the scope of your audience will never be a bad thing...

...Unless you're going after a very focused and dedicated demographic, whether because it's in an area you can actually compete in or because that's just what you want to make. The rules are different when it comes to criticism of niche products. First of all, the fanbase and their desires will have the full backing of the publisher, whether it be Xseed, NISA, Pqube, Idea Factory International, Mangagamer, etc. Second, the criticism will come from the outside, not the inside. The perception from the fanbase will suddenly be outsiders encroaching on their safe space which is the only place said products exist, which is what causes them to get defensive, which will further push the publishers to reassure them about things like being anti-censorship and all that jazz, and all everyone is left with is a hostile environment for all.

So with that, we circle back around to the beginning where the most insightful bit of commentary you're going to get is "that's creepy". And I mean that's fine if people just want to vent about the existence of things like that, I'm not going to stop anyone. I've certainly done it before about things I didn't care about, but I don't really see much purpose in dwelling on it.

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Well I agree to a certain extent. I dont think anyone here is under the dillusion that this thread in particular will have an effect on the gaming industry as a whole (or atleast I hope no one thinks that).
There have been hundreds of threads just like this one, with the same points and argument cycles, and there will be hundreds more just like it. On the whole this discussion isnt fruitful in that regard.

However, that dosent mean that these discussions are worthless. They are for people who want to air out their grievances with things that they find morally distasteful of otherwise annoying. Of course long form discussions like this arent going to appeal to everyone, but I dont think you should view this thread as having a "point" per se, rather its just a collection of womens thoughts on sexualiztion in video games.

Screw shame, I'd settle for a little self-reflection and empathy. Pause to think about the stuff you're engaging with and how it plays out in the grand scheme of things. SK is obviously at the extreme end of the spectrum, but just look at XC 2, FFXV and MGS V, this kind of stuff is sneaking more and more into the mainstream. This thread has seen countless examples of the same overly defensive attitude from people who love these games and others like it who are set on wilfully ignoring the complaints of actual women, as well as men like me who also think it's a terrible trend.

People might think that SK is just an extreme example that is far more open and aware of what it is compared to the aforementioned mainstream games and so isn't worth the effort: but when people who defend the likes of Quiet, Cindy and Pyra do so with the exact same fervour as they do SK, it becomes less about specific examples and more about a pervasive attitude problem within online gaming communities.

EDIT: I just now connected Cosmic Blizzard to an earlier discussion in another thread. Probably not gonna continue engaging with you, my dude.

Saucycarpdog said:

Not really toe tipping. He's outright stated before that he believes humans are always going to be selfish and there's no point in trying to convince people otherwise. Especially in "meaningless" media.

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I never said there's no point trying to convince people otherwise. I just said I personally haven't been convinced. People absolutely should discuss things that they feel could be better, even if that's an uphill battle. But for me personally, it likely won't change and I'd just feel like I'm patronizing people when I'll just go right back to consuming problematic content precisely for their problematic aspects.

HypedBeast said:

Well I agree to a certain extent. I dont think anyone here is under the dillusion that this thread in particular will have an effect on the gaming industry as a whole (or atleast I hope no one thinks that).
There have been hundreds of threads just like this one, with the same points and argument cycles, and there will be hundreds more just like it. On the whole this discussion isnt fruitful in that regard.

However, that dosent mean that these discussions are worthless. They are for people who want to air out their grievances with things that they find morally distasteful of otherwise annoying. Of course long form discussions like this arent going to appeal to everyone, but I dont think you should view this thread as having a "point" per se, rather its just a collection of womens thoughts on sexualiztion in video games.

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Well if it's just airing grievances, than I agree. It's good to have a place to vent.

Dmax3901 said:

EDIT: I just now connected Cosmic Blizzard to an earlier discussion in another thread. Probably not gonna continue engaging with you, my dude.

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Hey, fair enough. If you think our views are incompatible, I won't hold it against you. Feel free to put me on ignore if you get the urge to respond while thinking the conversation won't go anywhere. If it's any consolation, I've found many of your posts very informative even if I don't always agree.

cosmicblizzard said:

Yeah, I think a lot of people are missing that those designs are targeting both men and women based on what's considered traditionally attractive in those circles.

Saying "the men are more dressed, therefore they aren't objectified like the women" is missing the point because it's not true from a Japanese otaku perspective. That's pure fujoshi bait right there.

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Fair enough about objectification, but there's still a discrepancy in treatment.

Just look at the covers of promotional character images of any female-pandering visual novels. Sure, all those pretty boys might be wearing impossibly gaudy costumes. They might pose sexily, looking at us so lovingly. But most of them are still fully clothed. Why is that? It's not like women don't actually want to see some skin, you know. After all, every single route in Code: Realize contains long-awaited sexy shirtless scenes at the end.

Then we have this game that's designed, from the developer's own mouth, to have universal appeal. Sure enough, when we finally see the important casts, the characters they are pushing to the forefront of the game's promotion, all the boys look like they come straight out some kind of an edgy otome game. All of them are still fully clothed, though, while all of the girls look like that they're halfway to a sexy scene already. Why is that? Is that the bare minimum for men to feel that they are being pandered to? Like they just have to see skin on the default look of all the characters?

Do you feel the design treatment for both the girls and the boys in Code Vein are equal?

Scrooge McDuck said:

Fair enough about objectification, but there's still a discrepancy in treatment.

Just look at the covers of promotional character images of any female-pandering visual novels. Sure, all those pretty boys might be wearing impossibly gaudy costumes. They might pose sexily, looking at us so lovingly. But most of them are still fully clothed. Why is that? It's not like women don't actually want to see some skin, you know. After all, every single route in Code: Realize contains long-awaited sexy shirtless scenes at the end.

Then we have this game that's designed, from the developer's own mouth, to have universal appeal. Sure enough, when we finally see the important casts, the characters they are pushing to the forefront of the game's promotion, all the boys look like they come straight out some kind of an edgy otome game. All of them are still fully clothed, though, while all of the girls look like that they're halfway to a sexy scene already. Why is that? Is that the bare minimum for men to feel that they are being pandered to? Like they just have to see skin on the default look of all the characters?

Do you feel the design treatment for both the girls and the boys in Code Vein are equal?

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This isn't really a question I can answer as I don't actually understand how female-pandering works. I can't confirm or deny if more clothed bishounen are what fujoshi find attractive because I'm a straight male. But I mean, that seems to be what the numbers suggest.

This seems like some kind of nurture-based conditioning in regards to different groups finding different things attractive. So do I think it's equal? Probably not? I feel like a fujoshi is better-equipped to handle this question than I am.

cosmicblizzard said:

I never said there's no point trying to convince people otherwise. I just said I personally haven't been convinced. People absolutely should discuss things that they feel could be better, even if that's an uphill battle. But for me personally, it likely won't change and I'd just feel like I'm patronizing people when I'll just go right back to consuming problematic content precisely for their problematic aspects.

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You never made about yourself. You said there's nothing wrong for anyone to put their tastes above others and then proceeded to call all fictional media "meaningless".

cosmicblizzard said:

And yes, total expansion is what I've always proposed, but how one should define "popular media" and how it's generally not all-encompassing always has me conflicted with stuff like this. A well made AAA titty game should be just as commercially viable as a well made AAA game devoid of any sexualization, but that's not how market trends work. In a perfect world and with unlimited resources, I would want everyone to be catered to with multiple works that they'd never run out of, but since that's not entirely possible, I don't see much wrong with putting value on your own tastes above others for something as ultimately meaningless as fictional media.

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Saucycarpdog said:

You never made about yourself. You said there's nothing wrong for anyone to put their tastes above others and then proceeded to call all fictional media "meaningless".

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That was simultaneously a second-person statement and a reference to anyone else. The "your own tastes" can be translated to "my own tastes and anyone that feels similar to me" as well as "the tastes of people on the opposite side". As I believe I concluded in that very discussion, people should fight for what they want in media, because in the end it really isn't that important on an individual level and so one's own tastes should take priority. It was simultaneously words of encouragement and me admitting that I'd probably fight back were it to come to things I like not existing anymore or not.

cosmicblizzard said:

This isn't really a question I can answer as I don't actually understand how female-pandering works. I can't confirm or deny if more clothed bishounen are what fujoshi find attractive because I'm a straight male. But I mean, that seems to be what the numbers suggest.

This seems like some kind of nurture-based conditioning in regards to different groups finding different things attractive. So do I think it's equal? Probably not? I feel like a fujoshi is better-equipped to handle this question than I am.

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Here's the thing, though. I looked at covers and characters from popular male-pandering visual novels, and the female characters are generally more respectable (speaking of designs only; I can't speak for their treatment in game). Heck, Fate/stay night and Katawa Shoujo are hentai and they show more restraint in their female character designs.

It's really hard to buy the "it's pandering to both sides" argument when one side is comparable to otome games and the other doesn't even measure up to hentai games. At least the ones that actually try to be more than sexual fantasies, because surely we don't want Code Vein to be compared to How Do You Like My Big Bajoongaloogas or something.

Scrooge McDuck said:

Here's the thing, though. I looked at covers and characters from popular male-pandering visual novels, and the female characters are generally more respectable (speaking of designs only; I can't speak for their treatment in game). Heck, Fate/stay night and Katawa Shoujo are hentai and they show more restraint in their female character designs.

It's really hard to buy the "it's pandering to both sides" argument when one side is comparable to otome games and the other doesn't even measure up to hentai games. At least the ones that actually try to be more than sexual fantasies, because surely we don't want Code Vein to be compared to How Do You Like My Big Bajoongaloogas or something.

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While you're right in that I didn't take into account levels of objectification beyond "both sides are objectified" (which again is not something I as a straight male can fully determine the level of), I don't think Fate and Katawa Shoujo as an example of these super raunchy hentai games as a counterpoint really works. They're like the tamest an eroge can get and virtually no one reads them for the porn parts. Nukige are what you want here, and I can tell you right now that those covers go WAY beyond Code Vein.

cosmicblizzard said:

While you're right in that I didn't take into account levels of objectification beyond "both sides are objectified" (which again is not something I as a straight male can fully determine the level of), I don't think Fate and Katawa Shoujo as an example of these super raunchy hentai games as a counterpoint really works. They're like the tamest an eroge can get and virtually no one reads them for the porn parts. Nukige are what you want here, and I can tell you right now that those covers go WAY beyond Code Vein.

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I didn't bring them up as examples of "super raunchy hentai". I specifically picked hentai titles that, like I said, actually try to be more than sexual fantasies to point out that even games where the player character ultimately see naked women and have explicit sex with them can strive to be respectful in their character designs.

Code Vein is something Bandai Namco intends to be mainstream with universal appeal. I think they could at least also strive for that, instead of looking down at nukiges and say "at least we're better than those".

Choppasmith said:

I just finished Handa-Kun,the prequel Anime to Barakamon, and man episode 10 really captures that awkwardness when game companies try too hard and thought of this thread. So I took a crack at making a GIF slightly tweaking the dub dialog.

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Missed this on the last page, but good work on that gif. Also damn there was more Barakamon and I was unaware. I really liked the vibe of that anime (and the fact that they didn't do anything sketchy with the child characters).

Scrooge McDuck said:

I didn't bring them up as examples of "super raunchy hentai". I specifically picked hentai titles that, like I said, actually try to be more than sexual fantasies to point out that even games where the player character ultimately see naked women and have explicit sex with them can strive to be respectful in their character designs.

Code Vein is something Bandai Namco intends to be mainstream with universal appeal. I think they could at least also strive for that, instead of looking down at nukiges and say "at least we're better than those".

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Yeah, I agree.

Twig said:

that's...

good

i should watch handa-kun, i love barakamon but have always been baffled by handa-kun's existence...

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atomsk eater said:

Missed this on the last page, but good work on that gif. Also damn there was more Barakamon and I was unaware. I really liked the vibe of that anime (and the fact that they didn't do anything sketchy with the child characters).

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Thanks. When browsing the shows on Funimation NOW, it kinda baffled me as I overlooked it. The description doesn't mention its connection to Barakamon. After watching (and loving) Barakamon, I gave Handa Kun a shot and then realized when watching the opening it was done by the same manga creator. You'd never know though. It's a pretty zany high school comedy with no connection to Barakamon outside a quick little fourth wall reference in the first episode and some really vague foreshadowing in another episode and that's it.

It's.. Okay. I mean it's not bad, but it's really disconnected from Barakamon in tone, characters, and everything. I kept thinking they'd properly connect the two shows, but they didn't. Just don't expect it as a fitting follow-up in the same vein and you should enjoy it.

Steering a bit more on topic. It was thanks to this thread that I checked out Free! I really wanted to see what was angering so many anime fans blaming women for watching it and "ruining" anime and I really enjoyed it. So thanks to whoever originally mentioned that here.

cosmicblizzard said:

While you're right in that I didn't take into account levels of objectification beyond "both sides are objectified" (which again is not something I as a straight male can fully determine the level of), I don't think Fate and Katawa Shoujo as an example of these super raunchy hentai games as a counterpoint really works. They're like the tamest an eroge can get and virtually no one reads them for the porn parts. Nukige are what you want here, and I can tell you right now that those covers go WAY beyond Code Vein.

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Well, a) the both sides argument in this case is super fraught and b) even if you're a straight male and can't fully determine or even understand the problem, it doesn't mean you're incapable of making an approximation. And it's pretty obvious that the majority of all pandering in video games is focused towards a specific audience, regardless of the "type" of game we're talking about.

Like, I see this problem in a lot of arguments you make, where you state from the outset that you "can't understand" - except in most cases, you can at least approach the issue and try, rather than giving up because you think it's meaningless or not something you can relate to. Empathy would suggest that you can understand the problem if you want to and even discuss it, rather than dismissing it out of hand because you're a straight male.

esserius said:

Well, a) the both sides argument in this case is super fraught and b) even if you're a straight male and can't fully determine or even understand the problem, it doesn't mean you're incapable of making an approximation. And it's pretty obvious that the majority of all pandering in video games, regardless of the "type" of game we're talking about.

Like, I see this problem in a lot of arguments you make, where you state from the outset that you "can't understand" - except in most cases, you can at least approach the issue and try, rather than giving up because you think it's meaningless or not something you can relate to. I mean, empathy would suggest that you can understand the problem if you want to and even discuss it, rather than dismissing it out of hand because you're a straight male.

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The problem here is assuming I have empathy. Because of that, the most I can go on is what I've heard from fujoshi I've spoken to about this. And like any group, the opinions are all over the place. It's not so much that I'm dismissing it out of hand as I just default to looking at market trends and how well stuff like Free! or popular Otome games do. Since there's no hard numbers when it comes to "level of objectification", I can't actually make an approximation in determining if something is equal objectification or not. Like I can look at something like Akiba's Trip and say that's equal because the male and female characters are treated the exact same way by the stripping mechanic, but it gets murkier when it's about how a character dresses or poses or stuff like that. So in the end I just say I don't have a horse in this race and have to defer to other people.

cosmicblizzard said:

The problem here is assuming I have empathy. Because of that, the most I can go on is what I've heard from fujoshi I've spoken to about this. And like any group, the opinions are all over the place. It's not so much that I'm dismissing it out of hand as I just default to looking at market trends and how well stuff like Free! or popular Otome games do. Since there's no hard numbers when it comes to "level of objectification", I can't actually make an approximation in determining if something is equal objectification or not. Like I can look at something like Akiba's Trip and say that's equal because the male and female characters are treated the exact same way by the stripping mechanic, but it gets murkier when it's about how a character dresses or poses or stuff like that. So in the end I just say I don't have a horse in this race and have to defer to other people.

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You're not a robot, you have empathy. What you mean is you don't have empathy for this issue. It seems to me that you are so obsessed with numbers that you can't see problems as real outside them. Most people have the clarity of mind to make judgments outside of what numbers tell them. Even in statistical analysis, the smell test is important when addressing issues or research (and is typically the first thing done before starting research, as well as the last thing done to see if the research does or does not match up with that initial reaction).

esserius said:

You're not a robot, you have empathy. What you mean is you don't have empathy for this issue. It seems to me that you are so obsessed with numbers that you can't see problems as real outside them. Most people have the clarity of mind to make judgments outside of what numbers tell them. Even in statistical analysis, the smell test is important when addressing issues or research (and is typically the first thing done before starting research, as well as the last thing done to see if the research does or does not match up with that initial reaction).

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I have hindered empathy. I'm not a sociopath, but I'm not neurotypical either. Understanding certain things has been tough if not impossible for me, but I find the conversations fascinating which is why I've stayed in this thread despite my views being the opposite of the thread's.

cosmicblizzard said:

I have hindered empathy. I'm not a sociopath, but I'm not neurotypical either. Understanding certain things has been tough if not impossible for me, but I find the conversations fascinating which is why I've stayed in this thread despite my views being the opposite of the thread's.

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Is there any evidence that this a thing? I looked in the DSM IV and couldn't find anything. Is it like the Schizoid Personality Disorder?

It's unfortunate that people think sales = it's okay to do certain things.

I feel this forum's community has a good understanding of racism for the most part, but when it comes to female representation I feel the community here is about on par with any other gaming website and that saddens me.

I wish there was a place with more understanding on these issues because it feels like a losing battle almost every time.

Kokonoe said:

It's unfortunate that people think sales = it's okay to do certain things.

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And look, Nintendo released their FY reports and their games with almost zero objectification sold more like every shitty objectification focused game mentioned on this thread COMBINED

Kokonoe said:

It's unfortunate that people think sales = it's okay to do certain things.

I feel this forum's community has a good understanding of racism for the most part, but when it comes to female representation I feel the community here is about on par with any other gaming website and that saddens me.

I wish there was a place with more understanding on these issues because it feels like a losing battle almost every time.

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Sometimes I feel like a portion of the posters in this thread could be the great start of a Discord community. This thread won't last forever. Right?

Platy said:

And look, Nintendo released their FY reports and their games with almost zero objectification sold more like every shitty objectification focused game mentioned on this thread COMBINED

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Yeah, people tend to selectively use information it seems.

Peanut Cheese Bar said:

Sometimes I feel like a portion of the posters in this thread could be the great start of a Discord community. This thread won't last forever. Right?

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That would honestly be pretty cool.

Kokonoe said:

That would honestly be pretty cool.

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I don't like excluding people, and I don't think an echo chamber is good for anyone, but to be able to discuss these issues without having to stop every other page to try and reiterate the point of the thread would be pretty welcome.

Kokonoe said:

It's unfortunate that people think sales = it's okay to do certain things.

I feel this forum's community has a good understanding of racism for the most part, but when it comes to female representation I feel the community here is about on par with any other gaming website and that saddens me.

I wish there was a place with more understanding on these issues because it feels like a losing battle almost every time.

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Peanut Cheese Bar said:

I don't like excluding people, and I don't think an echo chamber is good for anyone, but to be able to discuss these issues without having to stop every other page to try and reiterate the point of the thread would be pretty welcome.

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I would have remained a lurker with a miniscule postcount were it not for this thread, TBH. It'd be nice to discuss some of the wider, off-topic issues raised over the past x-hundred pages without dealing with a constant cycle of repetitive, defensive arguments. A lot of gamers, it seems, have a severe allergy to critique, and will jump at the call to shoot down any attempts at properly analysing their beloved hobby and its associated mores :/

Any of you fine folks here played Iconoclasts? What did you think of the main cast?

Dary said:

I would have remained a lurker with a miniscule postcount were it not for this thread, TBH. It'd be nice to discuss someone of the wider, off-topic issues raised over the past x-hundred pages without dealing with a constant cycle of repetitive, defensive arguments. A lot of gamers, it seems, have a severe allergy to critique, and will jump at the call to shoot down any attempts at properly analysing their beloved hobby and its associated mores :/

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Same here.
A community like that would allow us to delve deeper into the good and the bad without the need to sling education on our views every two minutes. I'm in no way savvy enough to set up or organize that though.

Tizoc said:

Any of you fine folks here played Iconoclasts? What did you think of the main cast?

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Not had a chance yet. Too busy playing Celeste to be honest.
Any insights you care to pass along about Iconoclasts?

Tizoc said:

Any of you fine folks here played Iconoclasts? What did you think of the main cast?

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I'm in the middle of it, but all the characters are pretty great so far.

Peanut Cheese Bar said:

Not had a chance yet. Too busy playing Celeste to be honest.
Any insights you care to pass along about Iconoclasts?

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Great visuals
Great soundtrack
Good gameplay, it is an action platformer with some light puzzle elements and light exploration
The main 2 gals are great altho u mainly control Robin and while she is a silent protagonist, she has some adorablr sprite animations, esp her run animation

Peanut Cheese Bar said:

Not had a chance yet. Too busy playing Celeste to be honest.
Any insights you care to pass along about Iconoclasts?

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I was coming to say that just started playing Celeste

It's damn good

Tizoc said:

Great visuals
Great soundtrack
Good gameplay, it is an action platformer with some light puzzle elements and light exploration
The main 2 gals are great altho u mainly control Robin and while she is a silent protagonist, she has some adorablr sprite animations, esp her run animation

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Something I really like about a female protagonist with a giant wrench. Soft spot in my heart for that I guess.

Amiibola said:

I was coming to say that just started playing Celeste

It's damn good

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Celeste is putting a check in every box that makes up the list of what I'm looking for in a game. Not felt so overjoyed for a game in a long time.

Peanut Cheese Bar said:

Celeste is putting a check in every box that makes up the list of what I'm looking for in a game. Not felt so overjoyed for a game in a long time.

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Yeah, somehow it feels right in all fronts.

I'm at the third zone and i'm really liking the protagonist. Also, 1st zone end cutscene and the entire second zone hit something inside me. Not used to have that kind of characters in a videogame.

I had to stop at the third zone and i'm really cursing my assignments right now. I want to go back and keep playing

Y'all may want to keep an eye out for dandara, that is another indie game releasing in feb with a female protagonist

Amiibola said:

Yeah, somehow it feels right in all fronts.

I'm at the third zone and i'm really liking the protagonist. Also, 1st zone end cutscene and the entire second zone hit something inside me. Not used to have that kind of characters in a videogame.

I had to stop at the third zone and i'm really cursing my assignments right now. I want to go back and keep playing

Spoiler

Fucking pop3 and imap Dovecot servers. Why do i have to do this thing ffs

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I wasn't expecting a character I would relate to so much from a precision platformer. Hell, I wasn't expecting any story let alone such a good one.

Tizoc said:

Y'all may want to keep an eye out for dandara, that is another indie game releasing in feb with a female protagonist

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The way you aim and fire the character around vs standard movement is really interesting.

cosmicblizzard said:

This isn't really a question I can answer as I don't actually understand how female-pandering works. I can't confirm or deny if more clothed bishounen are what fujoshi find attractive because I'm a straight male. But I mean, that seems to be what the numbers suggest.

This seems like some kind of nurture-based conditioning in regards to different groups finding different things attractive. So do I think it's equal? Probably not? I feel like a fujoshi is better-equipped to handle this question than I am.

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Having half-naked men where they would be clothed in real life typically breaks the fantasy for otome games because as much as we like looking at them, men who show off their bodies in a sexual way tend to be doing it for other gay men. So they seem like they're not a fantasy "for us" except in the context of yaoi. Probably why a lot of otome scenarios involve abuse, just feels way more realistic lol.

Fuckin' Capcom. Look at this shit:




Both are the exact same armor set.

This alone kills any interest I have in this game. Fuck off, Capcom. I am not putting up with this kind of blatant disrespect.

Peanut Cheese Bar said:

Something I really like about a female protagonist with a giant wrench. Soft spot in my heart for that I guess.

Celeste is putting a check in every box that makes up the list of what I'm looking for in a game. Not felt so overjoyed for a game in a long time.

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Yeah Celeste feels joyous to play and I don't even like platformers. Madeline sports a great design (love her animated portraits), and the subject matter the narrative has her grapple with is handled very well.

Laiza said:

Fuckin' Capcom. Look at this shit:

Both are the exact same armor set.

This alone kills any interest I have in this game. Fuck off, Capcom. I am not putting up with this kind of blatant disrespect.

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Is the top one Pink Rathian? Can't believe that it's full plate on the Male and an armoured bikini on the female variant, that's pathetic.

Bottom one is Rathian? Yes, I can see why no shoulder armour, unarmoured upper chest and a massively restrictive armoured skirt guaranteed to trip you up and interfere with your ability to evade lethal blows is required for hunters with breasts. Said no blacksmith ever.

Laiza said:

Fuckin' Capcom. Look at this shit:

Both are the exact same armor set.

This alone kills any interest I have in this game. Fuck off, Capcom. I am not putting up with this kind of blatant disrespect.

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What's bizarre is that none of the female NPCs are sexualized in the slightest. So that there's such unnecessary dimorphism in the armor is just... Well, weird and tonally inconsistent.

Redcrayon said:

Is the top one Pink Rathian? Can't believe that it's full plate on the Male and an armoured bikini on the female variant, that's pathetic.

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It's the Anja set.

It really kills me because the male version heavily resembles one of my favorite armor sets from the Dark Souls series... but nah, women can't be allowed to have nice things, because we're fuckin' eye candy and not bloody human beings I guess. Goddammit.

Edit: Oh, and I just now realized that the vast majority of closed helmets in MHW are either open-faced or straight up not helmets on the female versions.

Goddammit, Capcom.

the Xenoblade 2 discussion keeps breaking down in ways that are incredibly depressing - now we have posters who can't understand why it's demeaning/problematic to refer to people who don't complain about game design as "normal." as if the rest of us are abnormal.

Laiza said:

It's the Anja set.

It really kills me because the male version heavily resembles one of my favorite armor sets from the Dark Souls series... but nah, women can't be allowed to have nice things, because we're fuckin' eye candy and not bloody human beings I guess. Goddammit.

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Yeah, it's really poor. Bottom one looks like a straight interpretation of Rath/Pink Rath from the older games, I've not seen the female one before as I usually go for a male hunter just because, as you say, the armour looks cooler. I find this so often in RPGs that I choose m/f based on who is more likely to have the least shitty armour. If I'm hunting wyverns I want to be in full armour, not dressed for the beach like some workshy Felyne.

esserius said:

Is there any evidence that this a thing? I looked in the DSM IV and couldn't find anything. Is it like the Schizoid Personality Disorder?

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It's not actually called hindered empathy.

I'll PM you when I get home from work. Don't really feel comfortable having this out in the open.

Viera said:

Having half-naked men where they would be clothed in real life typically breaks the fantasy for otome games because as much as we like looking at them, men who show off their bodies in a sexual way tend to be doing it for other gay men. So they seem like they're not a fantasy "for us" except in the context of yaoi. Probably why a lot of otome scenarios involve abuse, just feels way more realistic lol.

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I see.

Would you say the "all women love homos" (paraphrasing from Genshiken here, lol) sentiment is a myth among that group that male producers came up with because of false assumptions, or is it a real phenomenon due to the large amount of female creators in the space?

Mewshuji said:

What's bizarre is that none of the female NPCs are sexualized in the slightest. So that there's such unnecessary dimorphism in the armor is just... Well, weird and tonally inconsistent.

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Build Your Own Waifu Simulator, innit?

With design decisions like that, I don't believe they for one moment thought of women playing the game.

Laiza said:

It's the Anja set.

It really kills me because the male version heavily resembles one of my favorite armor sets from the Dark Souls series... but nah, women can't be allowed to have nice things, because we're fuckin' eye candy and not bloody human beings I guess. Goddammit.

Edit: Oh, and I just now realized that the vast majority of closed helmets in MHW are either open-faced or straight up not helmets on the female versions.

Goddammit, Capcom.

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Yeah I also saw the video with the outfits and even the more armored female outfits have that thigh window thingy that japanese folks adore.

MH armours have always had horribly sexist designs. Sadly MH World isn't a step in the right direction. Some sets are OK, others are egregiously bad. :( I might make two hunters, a male one that uses some armours and a female one who uses the others... lol.