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ultra bawl

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Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,137
No. Not even close. Voldo, are you kidding me? Voldo is a hideous freak, he's not designed to titillate straight women (can't comment on gay men but I doubt it).
Just coming out of lurking this thread to say that nah, I'm not into Voldo either, and I'm into some weird stuff.

Does Nathan Drake perhaps also fall under the intentional fan service to straight women? Obviously it's incredibly tame in comparison to his female counterparts, but I know a lot of gay men who were into the idea of a hot young action guy. I haven't played the games so can't comment on how the camera behaves around him and what sort of outfits and positions he's typically put into, and disclaimer: most gay gamers I know will take what little scraps they're given of hot video game men. Like you said, I can't think of anything that comes close to Cindy or Quiet with male characters outside of some more racy and sexually explicit dating sims (and they were also aimed at men!).
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,398
Does Nathan Drake perhaps also fall under the intentional fan service to straight women?
Nah. Nathan Drake is widely considered conventionally attractive (though he does nothing for me personally but I can't deny that he's "conventionally handsome"), but he's not "fanservicey" in the least. He's never sexualized in any way, not through camera work, outfits, or anything else really. Chloe is more sexualized than he is, lol (though it's very tame/tasteful stuff).
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Just coming out of lurking this thread to say that nah, I'm not into Voldo either, and I'm into some weird stuff.

Does Nathan Drake perhaps also fall under the intentional fan service to straight women? Obviously it's incredibly tame in comparison to his female counterparts, but I know a lot of gay men who were into the idea of a hot young action guy. I haven't played the games so can't comment on how the camera behaves around him and what sort of outfits and positions he's typically put into, and disclaimer: most gay gamers I know will take what little scraps they're given of hot video game men. Like you said, I can't think of anything that comes close to Cindy or Quiet with male characters outside of some more racy and sexually explicit dating sims (and they were also aimed at men!).
I wouldn't say that Nathan Drake is an intentional fan service to straight women, he's an attractice character but pretty much most protags are. If anything he's an example that you can include hot, sexy characters without making them fan service.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
The PP is an interesting case. It's a conservative party, that defends moral values that have been traditionally linked with catholicism, but you will never (or almost never) actually see them adress that their stance is based on their religious beliefs. Their stance on abortion and their past stance on gay marriage is definitely fueled by catholicism, I remember seeing them in the front row in those "for family's sake" protests that were organized by the Church to oppose to the later, for example, but in general they aren't really intertwined in the same way that politics and religion is in the States.

Even then, I'd say that one of the reasons why Ciudadanos is growing is because it offers a conservative proposition that isn't as linked to religion and is closer to the the center in certain social aspects. Which makes them more palatable to a lot of conservative people, and especially younger ones that may be conservatives but not Catholics, I'd say.

To try to stay a bit more on topic, I think that US media has recently stopped being so shy of nudity during this decade, especially on TV. At least that's the perception I have from the media I consume, I may be wrong.

Dont' want to keep the offtopic going but I liked and kinda agree with this post :) Also put me in the camp of "who the fuck I'm going to vote" too lol
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
I agree that Nathan Drake is just incidentally attractive. I don't play DMC, but I do remember a scene at the beginning of the Devil May Cry reboot where new Dante is naked (? almost naked?) and there were lots of carefully positioned objects over his crotch, etc. I think it was probably meant to be played for laughs, but it struck me as being surprisingly fanservicey in a way most games don't touch. I can't look for it now, because I'm at work. But if anyone else knows of it!
 

ultra bawl

User requested ban
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,137
I wouldn't say that Nathan Drake is an intentional fan service to straight women, he's an attractice character but pretty much most protags are. If anything he's an example that you can include hot, sexy characters without making them fan service.
Nah. Nathan Drake is widely considered conventionally attractive (though he does nothing for me personally but I can't deny that he's "conventionally handsome"), but he's not "fanservicey" in the least. He's never sexualized in any way, not through camera work, outfits, or anything else really. Chloe is more sexualized than he is, lol (though it's very tame/tasteful stuff).
Kind of suspected this but thought I'd ask! I remember before the games came out reading some articles that were like "oh ho ho, a sexy MAN this time!" But yeah, the execution was never going to be comparable and the intent was likely never anywhere near the same - I guess I shouldn't have even entertained the idea of fan service, it's not like those games are famous for hot springs scenes or maid costumes or whatever. I just know a lot of thirsty gays.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
I agree that Nathan Drake is just incidentally attractive. I don't play DMC, but I do remember a scene at the beginning of the Devil May Cry reboot where new Dante is naked (? almost naked?) and there were lots of carefully positioned objects over his crotch, etc. I think it was probably meant to be played for laughs, but it struck me as being surprisingly fanservicey in a way most games don't touch. I can't look for it now, because I'm at work. But if anyone else knows of it!
Donte was surprisingly naked a lot more than I remembered. I think this specific part was partly played for laughs tho
original.gif
 
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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Trading a fallacy for no reason at all isn't exactly progress.

I actually think it is progress. For one conversation doesn't get mired in "but it makes sense if you play the game!" like MGS fans do with Quiet, and it can focus on the actual authorial intent.

... actually scratch that, I just remembered people have come up with in-game plot reasons why 2B dresses like that, in this forum even. Was "death of the author" actually speaking of fandom? :D
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
Trading a fallacy for no reason at all isn't exactly progress.
It is because what we're really discussing is how the conversation around character design is formed. Creators saying things to give cover for egregious designs is a huge part of the problem to begin with, so someone who's willing to effectively say, "yeah, I'm not going to try justifying this" is a step in the right direction. Sure, 2B could have fewer problems to begin with, but that's more a problem with how Japanese games go about with their character designs to begin with, and how sexual objectification is barely as an issue acknowledged there.

I've seen people do exactly that... They say there's nothing wrong with it, because it's supposed to be sexy and the creator even said so. I've absolutely seen tweets/quotes by him used in a "it's not that serious" way to dismiss criticism as being overwrought.
Yeah, but they're actually twisting Yoko Taro's intentions in order to do that, and people will do that with any statement. At least you know right off that they're not arguing in good faith.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
Yeah, but they're actually twisting Yoko Taro's intentions in order to do that, and people will do that with any statement. At least you know right off that they're not arguing in good faith.

How is it twisting his intentions at all? And actually, I would say that it is his justification. He's justifying the design by saying it's sexually appealing to him. Just because it isn't an obviously bullshit answer doesn't mean he isn't defending his own choice or giving a reason for it.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
How is it twisting his intentions at all? And actually, I would say that it is his justification. He's justifying the design by saying it's sexually appealing to him. Just because it isn't an obviously bullshit answer doesn't mean he isn't defending his own choice or giving a reason for it.
A justification is an attempt to make something look correct or reasonable. Saying, "I like it that way" doesn't do that so it's not a justification.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
A justification is an attempt to make something look correct or reasonable. Saying, "I like it that way" doesn't do that so it's not a justification.

Considering how many people we've had come in to this very thread and justify the existence of these designs by saying they like them, I can't agree. I personally think it's flimsy and selfish reasoning, but plenty of people clearly believe simply liking the designs is justification enough.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Yes. I don't think Yoko Taro's stated reason for his sexualized designs is any better just because he's upfront about it.

Depends on your definition of "better", but at the very least his reason is "true". It might not be the biggest revelation that an artist does things because he likes them this way, but it's still better than a reason that is blatantly bollocks.

If I say "I painted the sky green because I like it", it might not be knocking off anyone's socks, but it cuts closer to the actual truth than a fictitious in-universe reason like "I painted the sky green because the sky in Xirpilug IV looks green due to the presence of element nerlogurt in the atmosphere". And therefore people can openly criticise my choice without me being able to shield myself in "BUT ELEMENT NERLOGURT".

(as an aside I personally think moving from "justification" to "reason" and thus shedding any connotations of "being owed one" also helps cull some discussion that was distracting from the heart to the matter).
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,989
Just because you are upfront about something doesnt make the situation better, the real question is if the design itself is deserving of being bashed just because it is "sexy"
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,398
Just because you are upfront about something doesnt make the situation better, the real question is if the design itself is deserving of being bashed just because it is "sexy"
It deserves to be bashed because it's ugly and stupid >.>

I'm aware I'm in the minority, unfortunately, but I still don't know why people think it's "cool".
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
Depends on your definition of "better", but at the very least his reason is "true". It might not be the biggest revelation that an artist does things because he likes them this way, but it's still better than a reason that is blatantly bollocks.

If I say "I painted the sky green because I like it", it might not be knocking off anyone's socks, but it cuts closer to the actual truth than a fictitious in-universe reason like "I painted the sky green because the sky in Xirpilug IV looks green due to the presence of element nerlogurt in the atmosphere". And therefore people can openly criticise my choice without me being able to shield myself in "BUT ELEMENT NERLOGURT".

(as an aside I personally think moving from "justification" to "reason" and thus shedding any connotations of "being owed one" also helps cull some discussion that was distracting from the heart to the matter).

I understand what you and others are saying, but a dev's reason and how honest it is makes no difference to me in this circumstance. A dev could come out and say "I design women like this because I see women as sex objects. I don't care if women play my games or how upset they are." I don't respect that, and it doesn't make me feel better because fewer people might latch on to a made-up in-game reason.

I don't see it any differently than I do the Kingdom Come: Deliverance dev from a few pages ago. He's being perfectly honest about what he thinks, but I don't respect him or what he's saying just because he's being honest.

And I do get that Yoko Taro saying he likes butts or whatever might seem really innocuous, but I absolutely hate that it's apparently acceptable and somewhat lauded to say that (because honesty) and then go ahead and put fetish-y designs in your critically acclaimed game. I like a lot of his work and I enjoy both Nier games, but I wouldn't want to be locked in a room with the guy. It all contributes to an atmosphere that isn't exactly welcoming toward women.
 
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Witch

Member
Jan 1, 2018
543
the moon
Just because you are upfront about something doesnt make the situation better, the real question is if the design itself is deserving of being bashed just because it is "sexy"
I love the design to death and I get pretty sad when people just say it's fanservice. I find it nice and not overdone at all. It's the fan art that overdoes it. I personally don't think it deserves to be bashed.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,989
It deserves to be bashed because it's ugly and stupid >.>

I'm aware I'm in the minority, unfortunately, but I still don't know why people think it's "cool".
I love the design to death and I get pretty sad when people just say it's fanservice. I find it nice and not overdone at all. It's the fan art that overdoes it. I personally don't think it deserves to be bashed.
I actually liked 2B's design, I think most people would agree its aesthetically a cohesive design, regardless of the position they have on the sexy aspect of it. Like the XC2 bunny thing is one that I can see being bashed because even if you remove the fact its just blatant pandering to titillate, the aesthetics of it are all off. The proportions are weird, the design is boring and the palette is bland, it fails at even being a good character design. 2B doesnt really have this problem, its smartly themed and has nice contrasts, and never really went overboard in the same way stuff like XC2 did.
 

incogneato

Self Requested Ban
Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,119
ultra bawl

i consider nathan drake fanservice because all attractive characters are created with the explicit purpose of attracting people to them based on their looks. however saying that nathan drake is on the level of ridiculous fanservice is not a good claim, but he's absolutely pandering to a very specific audience with his conventionally attractive, white worship design

fanservice is ok for the most part just not when it's ridiculous or ill befitting the character or themes of the overall story
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I understand what you and others are saying, but a dev's reason and how honest it is makes no difference to me in this circumstance. A dev could come out and say "I design women like this because I see women as sex objects. I don't care if women play my games or how upset they are." I don't respect that, and it doesn't make me feel better because fewer people might latch on to the made-up in-game reason.

I think we're getting to the crux of the disagreement here. I thought your issue with it was that it also fails to justify 2B's design; I didn't get until now that you consider "I like butts", itself and taken in a vaccuum, as problematic.

If one thinks of "I like butts" as the same as "I see women as sex objects", then yes, obviously no amount of honesty can excuse it. I (as a het male) personally didn't see it like that, nowhere near close, and I have a pretty strong feeling he himself doesn't, either. This doesn't mean that your perspective isn't also valid, or even more valid, but it's worth noting that most men won't immediately make that jump. And specifically, considering the utter lack of self-reflection Japan shows in terms of sexualization, asking a Japanese designer to make that jump is probably beyond impossible.

I don't see it any differently than I do the Kingdom Come: Deliverance dev from a few pages ago. He's being perfectly honest about what he thinks, but I don't respect him or what he's saying just because he's being honest.

Again, it depends on whether you assume the quote to imply something malicious. If not, then it's nowhere the same case, because Vavra's quotes are vile by themselves.

And I do get that Yoko Taro saying he likes butts or whatever might seem really innocuous, but I absolutely hate that it's apparently acceptable and somewhat lauded to say that (because honesty) and then go ahead and put fetish-y designs in your critically acclaimed game.

Until now I personally thought it acceptable to say that, and indeed innocuous. It's worth noting, however, that I'm from Spain, a considerably more sexually open country than the UK or US, and "I like butts" is among the tamer things you'll hear here... from women. I'm not saying it's better or worse (don't take this as the overused "you prudish americans"), just different, and most people in my IRL circle, men and women, will absolutely have zero issues with such a statement.

Of course, I've come to this thread to learn from all of you. Let's separate both issues (the quote and the design), especially since we've pretty much all agreed that the former doesn't (attempt to) justify the latter. Do other women here also consider the quote offensive by itself?
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I'm not really sure it's about who's saying it, but the context in which it was said.

People find Dahlia from XC2 to be a problem, in spite of the designer being female. The design is not excused from criticism, nor would she be if her response to why Dahlia was designed that way was, "I like butts."

In both cases, it's a shallow reasoning and doesn't resolve anything - it just perpetuates the same problems we've always had, in a different way.

It's good that some designers are honest. But that doesn't really solve anything.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
I think we're getting to the crux of the disagreement here. I thought your issue with it was that it also fails to justify 2B's design; I didn't get until now that you consider "I like butts", itself and taken in a vaccuum, as problematic.

If one thinks of "I like butts" as the same as "I see women as sex objects", then yes, obviously no amount of honesty can excuse it. I (as a het male) personally didn't see it like that, nowhere near close, and I have a pretty strong feeling he himself doesn't, either. This doesn't mean that your perspective isn't also valid, or even more valid, but it's worth noting that most men won't immediately make that jump. And specifically, considering the utter lack of self-reflection Japan shows in terms of sexualization, asking a Japanese designer to make that jump is probably beyond impossible.



Again, it depends on whether you assume the quote to imply something malicious. If not, then it's nowhere the same case, because Vavra's quotes are vile by themselves.



Until now I personally thought it acceptable to say that, and indeed innocuous. It's worth noting, however, that I'm from Spain, a considerably more sexually open country than the UK or US, and "I like butts" is among the tamer things you'll hear here... from women. I'm not saying it's better or worse (don't take this as the overused "you prudish americans"), just different, and most people in my IRL circle, men and women, will absolutely have zero issues with such a statement.

Of course, I've come to this thread to learn from all of you. Let's separate both issues (the quote and the design), especially since we've pretty much all agreed that the former doesn't (attempt to) justify the latter. Do other women here also consider the quote offensive by itself?

You can't separate the quote from the design, though. There is nothing wrong with saying "I like butts" all on its own. But it's one thing for Yoko Taro to say "I like women's butts" and another for him to then go make a female character with a fetishized design, lots of accidental upskirts, an achievement for getting upskirts, and an ability to blow her skirt off so you can see her sexualized butt.

There is objectification in Nier Automata, and his reason for it ("I like butts") doesn't prevent it from being objectification. So in the end, his honest reason results in the same objectification as a dishonest reason.
 

SieteBlanco

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,878
It's not really equivalent to how they use female characters, but anyone pointing to cool and incidentally attractive characters like Nathan or Dante should take a look at the King of Prism franchise.

CTLIwfsWUAAS1Qk.jpg:orig

amakuni_yamatopo-9.jpg


Or at least at the, popular and mainstream, Free.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,989
You can't separate the quote from the design, though. There is nothing wrong with saying "I like butts" all on its own. But it's one thing for Yoko Taro to say "I like women's butts" and another for him to then go make a female character with a fetishized design, lots of accidental upskirts, an achievement for getting upskirts, and an ability to blow her skirt off so you can see her sexualized butt.

There is objectification in Nier Automata, and his reason for it ("I like butts") doesn't prevent it from being objectification. So in the end, his honest reason results in the same objectification as a dishonest reason.
It doesnt change the design, but it still scores points for Taro as a person. I think most people would agree that its better to be honest instead of assuming people dont have eyes and can see whats going on. Really the quote and the designs really have nothing to do with each other, because the design is what it is and we can all judge it based on what we see rather than what the creator tells us to see.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
It doesnt change the design, but it still scores points for Taro as a person. I think most people would agree that its better to be honest instead of assuming people dont have eyes and can see whats going on. Really the quote and the designs really have nothing to do with each other, because the design is what it is and we can all judge it based on what we see rather than what the creator tells us to see.
Except the quote has everything to do with the design, because it was answering a question about her design!
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,037
It deserves to be bashed because it's ugly and stupid >.>

I'm aware I'm in the minority, unfortunately, but I still don't know why people think it's "cool".

Because you can see up her skirt. And, if you hold the analog buttons down it will blow her skirt off so you can experience the full glory of her wonderful bum.

So cool...
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,989
Except the quote has everything to do with the design, because it was answering a question about her design!
so did it change anything about the design for you? My point is, whatever he says shouldnt color your opinion on the actual aesthetic design. Its like saying quiet was okay because Kojima said I was going to be ashamed of my words and deeds
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
I really wouldn't take Yoko Taro at face value for, well, anything. The guy is not normal in how he thinks or perceives the world.

On 2B, I've already made a big post earlier in the thread on why I feel pretty much everything about her is justified, but it's like 100 pages back and I'm at work now, so maybe I'll dig for it later. Doubt it would change any minds though.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
It doesnt change the design, but it still scores points for Taro as a person. I think most people would agree that its better to be honest instead of assuming people dont have eyes and can see whats going on. Really the quote and the designs really have nothing to do with each other, because the design is what it is and we can all judge it based on what we see rather than what the creator tells us to see.

The honesty here is basically, "I made an objectified female character, because I think women are hot." That doesn't score him any points with me. I'll save those for devs who are making efforts to do well by their female characters.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
It's not really equivalent to how they use female characters, but anyone pointing to cool and incidentally attractive characters like Nathan or Dante should take a look at the King of Prism franchise.

Or at least at the, popular and mainstream, Free.

There is also a series of chinese doujin games titled Prince Maker, based on Princess Maker but with better story

 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,989
The honesty here is basically, "I made an objectified female character, because I think women are hot." That doesn't score him any points with me. I'll save those for devs who are making efforts to do well by their female characters.
I mean, then we are going into opinion territory on how we perceive objectification, I think you can do a lot worse than 2b and for what it is 2b is a fleshed out character with some powerful moments. Especially given that you have to go out of your way to make her more "sexy", really this is more of an issue of do we perceive sexuality as objectification inherently. Then you have to ask yourself if it would have been better if they denied it. Even if the answer he gave got him 0 points, its better than a lie that would give him -1 points
 
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Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Because you can see up her skirt. And, if you hold the analog buttons down it will blow her skirt off so you can experience the full glory of her wonderful bum.

So cool...

2B's design is pleasing for reasons other then the fact you can see up her skirt.

It's stylish slick and has an overall appealing aesthetic.

It's pretty damn disingenuous to try and write off all the appeal of the look with "you can see up her skirt."
 
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Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
edit: nvm, I already said so much about 2B here that I don't want to sound like a broken record lol
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I mean, then we are going into opinion territory on how we perceive objectification, I think you can do a lot worse than 2b and for what it is 2b is a fleshed out character with some powerful moments. Especially given that you have to go out of your way to make her more "sexy", really this is more of an issue of do we perceive sexuality as objectification inherently. Then you have to ask yourself if it would have been better if they denied it. Even if the answer he gave got him 0 points, its better than a lie that would give him -1 points
Doesn't change her objectification or that Yoko Taro's ok with it.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Donte was surprisingly naked a lot more than I remembered. I think this specific part was partly played for laughs tho
original.gif
It's definitely played for laughs, but I think it's also played for eye candy.

A lot of fanservice nonsense in anime is both meant to be comedy and eye candy. False equivalences abound, of course, but, yeah.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I mean I've said more than once in this thread that I love 2B's outfit because I think it's a really cool design and comes off to me more as badass than sexy.

Doesn't mean it's perfect, but Izanagi isn't wrong. "It's hot" is not the only reason to like that outfit.
 

Witch

Member
Jan 1, 2018
543
the moon
2B's design is pleasing for reasons other then the fact you can see up her skirt.

It's stylish slick and has an overall appealing aesthetic.

It's pretty damn disingenuous to try and write off all the appeal of the look with "you can see up her skirt."
This is exactly what I was talking about above.
Look, man. I'm a straight girl and I don't care about looking at her butt. In my opinion, her design is cool for many reasons that have been stated well by Aigis and Izanagi.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,398
I mean I've said more than once in this thread that I love 2B's outfit because I think it's a really cool design and comes off to me more as badass than sexy.
That's really what I don't get. How does a ballerina come across as "badass", anyway? It has the 100% opposite effect on me. I don't see "she must be a badass android", I see "she must be ready for her Babymetal concert". Literally the opposite of badass, lol.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I can't explain it! I can only provide my reaction.

I don't think she looks like a ballerina. I like the fashion. I dunno.
 
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