Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

[Weltall Zero]

Not at all, actually. Human breasts are so prominent because we store fat there and most mammals do not. The average mammalian mammary is mostly unnoticeable unless they are lactating. Humans are freaks.

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"Humans store fat there" is the how, not the why. There are several theories why human females have breasts, every single of them stemming from the fact we're upright (from "easier to breastfeed in that position" to the slightly unflattering yet widely more accepted "mimicking of buttocks").

 

[psychowave]

Eh, it's not really better. It just shows that the designers/artists know high heels are stupid for combatant, but put them in anyway. So they don't even have the "oh I wasn't really thinking about that I just thought it looked cool" excuse (not that it'd be much of one, lol).

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Yeah, it's the good old "if we make fun of an old boring trope people can't call us lazy and unimaginative for using it, even though we're otherwise playing it completely straight!".

 

[DragonKeeper]

"Humans store fat there" is the how, not the why. There are several theories why human females have breasts, every single of them stemming from the fact we're upright (from "easier to breastfeed in that position" to the slightly unflattering yet widely more accepted "mimicking of buttocks").

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Likely has nothing to do with being upright and more to do with the way the human body stores fat in general (compared to other apes). The whole "humans have a layer of blubber" is one of the tenets of the stupid aquatic ape theory. Anyway, changes nothing in regards to what I said. An upright mammal might have breasts, but they don't need to be fatty, or located on the chest, or breasts a all, could even be a marsupial or a monotreme.

Damned placentals thinking you're the default mammal.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Likely has nothing to do with being upright and more to do with the way the human body stores fat in general (compared to other apes).

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That's not at all what most of the bibliography I've found says, though. Do you have a source for that theory?

The whole "humans have a layer of blubber" is one of the tenets of the stupid aquatic ape theory. Anyway, changes nothing in regards to what I said. An upright mammal might have breasts, but they don't need to be fatty, or located on the chest, or breasts a all, could even be a marsupial or a monotreme.

Damned placentals thinking you're the default mammal.

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Well, yeah, but Charr are obviously based on felidae, which aren't marsupials nor monotremes. :) It certainly makes a hell of a lot more sense for them to have breasts than 90% of other nonhuman races out there, especially non-mammalian races. I love you to bits, Starbound, but physiology is not the reason your bird ladies and fish ladies have breasts. :)

 

[DragonKeeper]

That's not at all what most of the bibliography I've found says, though. Do you have a source for that theory?

Well, yeah, but Charr are obviously based on felidae, which aren't marsupials nor monotremes. :) It certainly makes a hell of a lot more sense for them to have breasts than 90% of other nonhuman races out there, especially non-mammalian races. I love you to bits, Starbound, but physiology is not the reason your bird ladies and fish ladies have breasts. :)

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In comparison to our closest relatives, humans are fat. We store more fat and retain more fat. It's theorized this evolved in relation to humans being a wandering species rather than a sedentary one which keeps a small territory with reliable food sources. Female chimps also have fat in their breasts, but only when they are lactating. Humans have it there all the time, and again it's likely because we just store lots of fat in general, needing it both for energy and insulation. It also seems we traded a lot of muscle in for that fat. Muscle is expensive to maintain, especially if you don't know where the next meal is coming from so, fat it is!

Onto the Charr, just because something looks feline doesn't mean it ancestrally is, or have various taxonomic faux pas revealed with he advent of genetic analysis taught us nothing! No reason the Charr couldn't be descendants of Thylacoleo carnifex. And if they are feline, they likely would have a line of nipples along the abdomen, not breasts.

 

[Weltall Zero]

In comparison to out closest relatives, humans are fat. We store more fat and retain more fat. It's theorized this evolved in relation to humans being a wandering species rather than a sedentary one which keeps a small territory with reliable food sources. Female chimps also have fat in their breasts, but only when they are lactating. Humans have it there all the time, and again it's likely because we just store lots of fat in general, needing it both for energy and insulation. It also seems we traded a lot of muscle in for that fat. Muscle is expensive to maintain, especially if you don't know where the next meal is coming from so, fat it is!

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Again, any reputable source for this being the source of human breasts? It runs counter to pretty much every resource I've found on the matter.

Onto the Charr, just because something looks feline doesn't mean it ancestrally is, or have various taxonomic faux pas revealed with he advent of genetic analysis taught us nothing! And if they are feline in nature, they likely would have a line of nipples along the abdomen, not breasts.

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That's a fair point, indeed. But I wouldn't put it past devs to use that to put six human-sized breasts on their catgirls. :D

 

[DragonKeeper]

Again, any reputable source for this being the source of human breasts? It runs counter to pretty much every resource I've found on the matter.

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I'm a science buff and have read so much material on evolutionary biology I don't remember my sources, other than it was a primatology study and not specifically an anthropology study.

I just googled human fat vs chimp fat to see if anything popped up and got a bunch of hits saying the same thing.

 

[Akainu]

I would mind this a little bit less if female Au Ra weren't so damn doll-like, both in their faces and animations.

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Eh. They are actually far better than female midlanders. And they don't have that dumb girly run.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I'm a science buff and have read so much material on evolutionary biology I don't remember my sources, other than it was a primatology study and not specifically an anthropology study.

I just googled human fat vs chimp fat to see if anything popped up and got a bunch of hits saying the same thing.

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I googled "human fat vs chimp fat breasts" and these are the first few hits that actually talk about breasts:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/may/14/breast-size-evolution

So it has been widely theorised that the plump buttock and bosom of modern women are sexual ornaments, selected for by ancestral males2. Seen from a distance the adult female form, either from behind or from the front, can be recognised as distinct from the male of the species. An hourglass figure, plus youthfulness, would have attracted male hominids looking for mating opportunity3. The hourglass figure remains attractive to modern males. Over the centuries females attempting to increase their mate choice have dressed to exploit this shape (corsets, bustles and wonder bras). If ancestral males had not shown a preference for the mutation producing symmetrical, plump bosoms, modern women's chests would resemble the flat thoraxes of the other apes.

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https://www.livescience.com/32745-why-do-women-have-breasts.html

Even though they appear full, a woman's breasts are only filled with milk after a she gives birth. The rest of the time, they're mostly made up of fat.

"Human breasts could therefore be a kind of biological deception," according to David P. Barash and Judith Eve Lipton at the National Sexuality Resource Center.

However, Barash and Lipton report that full breasts could just as easily signal the truth about a woman's ability to store fat and her fertility. For example, flat-chested prepubescent girls are too young to bear children, and the sagging shrunken chests of older women may suggest they're past their prime.

Because breasts sometimes get in women's way, some scientists have developed an evolutionary theory they call a "handicap principle." According to this theory, heavy breasts honestly announce a woman's genetic health, but at a cost of her carrying them around.

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I found no results implying that breasts were the direct result of fat redistribution (or rather, of the much higher concentration of fat in humans than in other primates). Universally all literature I've found agrees that the hourglass figure evolved as a (costly) way to attract males, and like in the myriad other cases, the evolutionary arms race took off from there.

Just to know where we're standing, what you're saying is that breasts indeed evolved to attract males, but that they would have not evolved if not for a separate change in how humans store fat compared to other primates? That actually makes sense, it's just that I can't find any literature on it.

 

[DragonKeeper]

I googled "human fat vs chimp fat breasts" and these are the first few hits that actually talk about breasts:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/may/14/breast-size-evolution

https://www.livescience.com/32745-why-do-women-have-breasts.html

I found no results implying that breasts were the direct result of fat redistribution (or rather, of the much higher concentration of fat in humans than in other primates). Universally all literature I've found agrees that the hourglass figure evolved as a (costly) way to attract males, and like in the myriad other cases, the evolutionary arms race took off from there.

Just to know where we're standing, what you're saying is that breasts indeed evolved to attract males, but that they would have not evolved if not for a separate change in how humans store fat compared to other primates? That actually makes sense, it's just that I can't find any literature on it.

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Humans have fat concentration around our center of gravity, that's why we have fatty butts and thighs. Men store fat in the same areas, women just store more (and men store more around the gut, but even this isn't really universal, as there's a lot of individuality in where people carry fat depending on their body type). Whether or not fat there or in the breasts has anything to do with sexual attraction is speculative and hardly has a universal sex appeal. In societies where women do not wear clothes on their upper torsos. breasts aren't considered special to sex appeal and what's been considered sexually provocative or even lewd has varied across different cultures and at different times and may have more to do with how we clothe ourselves and choose to cover up. I don't buy into the breasts evolved to attract males, it's a contentious theory in science. It's not universal to human culture and isn't reflected in our living relatives. Most likely fat in general was attractive as a sign of health in our ancient ancestors and fatty breasts were just a result of more fat in general. The capacity to store fat there was already present in pre-human ancestors. Not every evolutionary characteristic evolved for a purpose, never overlook the humble spandrel as the most likely reason for a lot of biological features. The spandrel wasn't built for a purpose, it's just the natural consequence of building stairs.

And humans are still freaks and it really irritates me any time somebody creates a female nonhuman (even non mammalian) character and needs to slap a pair of boobs on it. Wouldn't want anybody to freak out if they couldn't immediately determine the sex of that lobster person.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Humans have fat concentration around our center of gravity, that's why we have fatty butts and thighs. Men store fat in the same areas, women just store more (and men store more around the gut, but even this isn't really universal, as there's a lot of individuality in where people carry fat depending on their body type). Whether or not fat there or in the breasts has anything to do with sexual attraction is speculative and hardly has a universal sex appeal. In societies where women do not wear clothes on their upper torsos. breasts aren't considered special to sex appeal and what's been considered sexually provocative or even lewd has varied across different cultures and at different times and may have more to do with how we clothe ourselves and choose to cover up. I don't buy into the breasts evolved to attract males, it's a contentious theory in science. It's not universal to human culture and isn't reflected in our living relatives. Most likely fat in general was attractive as a sign of health in our ancient ancestors and fatty breasts were just a result of more fat in general. The capacity to store fat there was already present in pre-human ancestors. Not every evolutionary characteristic evolved for a purpose, never overlook the humble spandrel as the most likely reason for a lot of biological features. The spandrel wasn't built for a purpose, it's just the natural consequence of building stairs.

And humans are still freaks and it really irritates me any time somebody creates a female nonhuman (even non mammalian) character and needs to slap a pair of boobs on it. Wouldn't want anybody to freak out if they couldn't immediately determine the sex of that lobster person.

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Well... we're clearly off topic and it doesn't seem any sort of literature supporting the conjectures above is forthcoming, so I believe this would be as good a time as any to move on.

 

[DragonKeeper]

Well... we're clearly off topic and it doesn't seem any sort of literature supporting the conjectures above is forthcoming, so I believe this would be as good a time as any to move on.

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I'm not having such a serious scientific debate with you that I feel I need to dig up research I remember reading who knows how long ago. I frequent a biology professor's blog who has touched on similar subjects. Go hang out there or e-mail him a question if you like (note, the blog is as political as it is scientific) https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/

Anyway, until you decided to redirect us down a side alley, my only point was you don't need to slap boobs on a fantasy/alien species to make it identifiably female, that anatomy is only relevant to human females, you don't even need to make a character's sex identifiable. I'd like to see more creators veer away from this cliche'.

 

[psychowave]

I've been having slowbeef's Let's Play of Snatcher as background noise while I do other stuff and I forgot that not only does the game let you sexually assault a 14 year old, but she's actually treated as a love interest for much of the game. I really wish gamers would stop sucking Kojima's dick, but then again, most gamers don't care about this stuff in the first place.

 

[Xaszatm]

I've been having slowbeef's Let's Play of Snatcher as background noise while I do other stuff and I forgot that not only does the game let you sexually assault a 14 year old, but she's actually treated as a love interest for much of the game. I really wish gamers would stop sucking Kojima's dick, but then again, most gamers don't care about this stuff in the first place.

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What's really creepy is that the main character clearly still has feeling's with his ex so it brings on a feeling of cheating into it as well. And the other awful part is that, well...it's completely unnecessary to the game because the main story is far more interested in the ex as a character than the 14 year old.

 

[Spode]

So I was browsing Steam and got this recommended to me because it is apparently similar to Stardew Valley. Stardew is like my favorite game of the past few years so I felt I should try the demo. 5mins in and I run into this

Spoiler

Fucking wow, what is that outfit. Never have I uninstalled a game so fast, and now I'm annoyed it shows up in the recent games menu >_>.

 

[Weltall Zero]

So I was browsing Steam and got this recommended to me because it is apparently similar to Stardew Valley. Stardew is like my favorite game of the past few years so I felt I should try the demo. 5mins in and I run into this

Spoiler

Fucking wow, what is that outfit. Never have I uninstalled a game so fast, and now I'm annoyed it shows up in the recent games menu >_>.

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You can remove a game from your account and it won't show up anywhere anymore; for free games and demos I believe this pretty much hides records of you having ever played it (for non-free games it actually removes them from your account, so beware!).

Also is it just my dirty mind or is there innuendo in that dialogue too ("studying under him")?

 

[Snormy]

So I was browsing Steam and got this recommended to me because it is apparently similar to Stardew Valley. Stardew is like my favorite game of the past few years so I felt I should try the demo. 5mins in and I run into this

Spoiler

Fucking wow, what is that outfit. Never have I uninstalled a game so fast, and now I'm annoyed it shows up in the recent games menu >_>.

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Which is a shame because the game itself is quite good. There is a bit of a split on the fan base opinion on the characters. I lean on most of them looking pretty bad. I guess I don't like that style. That outfit is bad though, no denying that.

 

[PtM]

Also is it just my dirty mind or is there innuendo in that dialogue too ("studying under him")?

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It's your dirty mind.

 

[Redcrayon]

I was looking at Reddit/Switch and saw this Xenoblade Chronicles 2 figure up for pre-order. Needless to say the conversation gets very weird, very fast.

 

[Ferrs]

I was looking at Reddit/Switch and saw this Xenoblade Chronicles 2 figure up for pre-order. Needless to say the conversation gets very weird, very fast.

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what's the point of that "dress" if realistically her nipples should be visible by how low the breast part hangs... (also she has no nipples, omg censorship!!!111)

 

[Dary]

Well, they certainly know their audience...

 

[Redcrayon]

what's the point of that "dress" if realistically her nipples should be visible by how low the breast part hangs... (also she has no nipples, omg censorship!!!111)

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And there was me thinking that YsVIII had taken last year's award for 'least effective scrap of waist plate armour paired with lingerie' :D

 

[Redcrayon]

Well, they certainly know their audience...

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Seeing as the figure will probably be four times the price of the game, I guess so!

 

[Dary]

Also, shouldn't all that metal cause some major chaffing? And, since Rex shares her injuries, shouldn't he be really feeling it?

 

[Spode]

You can remove a game from your account and it won't show up anywhere anymore; for free games and demos I believe this pretty much hides records of you having ever played it (for non-free games it actually removes them from your account, so beware!).

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Oh, okay, thanks! Managed to find the remove game from account option, and using it + rebooting steam also made the game disappear from the system tray menu. Yay!

Which is a shame because the game itself is quite good. There is a bit of a split on the fan base opinion on the characters. I lean on most of them looking pretty bad. I guess I don't like that style. That outfit is bad though, no denying that.

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Yeah... I mean, I can/should not say much about the game with ~10 minutes played of the demo but those were some meh minutes. I was not a fan of how it controlled, and the combat (which I encountered by accidentally starting a sparring session) felt... not great. Then that happens and made it easy for me. There seems to be multiple similar games in development, and Stardew is getting a new update next month.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I was looking at Reddit/Switch and saw this Xenoblade Chronicles 2 figure up for pre-order. Needless to say the conversation gets very weird, very fast.

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Yeah, I read the title of a thread here on Era about new figures announced for Xenoblade 2 and other such Japanese games and I was like "nope".

 

[Redcrayon]

Yeah, I read the title of a thread here on Era about new figures announced for Xenoblade 2 and other such Japanese games and I was like "nope".

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But Weltall, I thought you liked a good action figure :D

 

[Dragmire]

Wonder fest is going on. As a collector It can be very frustrating because for every great figure you see there are 20 like those Xenoblade characters just ten times worse(and younger).

 

[CannonFodder52]

I've been having slowbeef's Let's Play of Snatcher as background noise while I do other stuff and I forgot that not only does the game let you sexually assault a 14 year old, but she's actually treated as a love interest for much of the game. I really wish gamers would stop sucking Kojima's dick, but then again, most gamers don't care about this stuff in the first place.

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Yea, I got to play it for the first time in 2017. There's so much good in that game, but at the same time there's some of the more vile stuff I've seen featured in a video game.

After the death of your colleague you're sent to his home, where you harass and creepily hit on his 14 year old daughter. Also that shower scene is incredibly messed up, I believe there's nudity and smelling of her underwear in Japanese version. It's really bad.
I'm glad some of the more extreme stuff was removed from the English localisation, but damn it's hard to not think differently of Kojima after experiencing that game.
Edit: for some reason Blaustein's localisation added the harem scene to the ending, which is pretty gross as well.

Slowbeef is great though.

 

[petran79]

I've been having slowbeef's Let's Play of Snatcher as background noise while I do other stuff and I forgot that not only does the game let you sexually assault a 14 year old, but she's actually treated as a love interest for much of the game. I really wish gamers would stop sucking Kojima's dick, but then again, most gamers don't care about this stuff in the first place.

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Dating simulator games were quite popular back then in Japan and most of it had lewd material. Policenauts had even an Easter Egg if it detected a Tokimeki Memorial save game. That game did not feature any questionable content but it involves finding a way to date school girls.

 

[CannonFodder52]

Dating simulator games were quite popular back then in Japan and most of it had lewd material. Policenauts had even an Easter Egg if it detected a Tokimeki Memorial save game. \

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Was it Policenauts that let you grope every woman in the game?

 

[Dary]

Dating simulator games were quite popular back then in Japan and most of it had lewd material. Policenauts had even an Easter Egg if it detected a Tokimeki Memorial save game. That game did not feature any questionable content but it involves finding a way to date school girls.

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I remember trying to play the SNES version back in the day. I think I pissed them all off because I had no idea what was going on.

Do the modern equivalents even have fail states? It'd be an interesting metacommentary on things if they've been phased out. I mean, Persona 3 had them, but 4 cut you some slack and 5 outright lets you date every woman in the game with barely any consequence...

 

[Weltall Zero]

But Weltall, I thought you liked a good action figure :D

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And that includes women, but they gotta transform and carry heavy weaponry. :D

(and yeah, pink. I have a smaller Arcee I painted red).

 

[Xaszatm]

I remember trying to play the SNES version back in the day. I think I pissed them all off because I had no idea what was going on.

Do the modern equivalents even have fail states? It'd be an interesting metacommentary on things if they've been phased out. I mean, Persona 3 had them, but 4 cut you some slack and 5 outright lets you date every woman in the game with barely any consequence...

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In actual dating simulators? Honestly I see more Visual Novels over those these days which kind of requires you to end up with someone. Though admittedly I haven't really paid attention to that genre these days anyway.

 

[Deleted member 18021]

Was it Policenauts that let you grope every woman in the game?

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Yep. I believe there was one occasion where it was actually necessary.

As cool as The Boss was, Kojima really doesn't have the best history in this regard.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I remember trying to play the SNES version back in the day. I think I pissed them all off because I had no idea what was going on.

Do the modern equivalents even have fail states? It'd be an interesting metacommentary on things if they've been phased out. I mean, Persona 3 had them, but 4 cut you some slack and 5 outright lets you date every woman in the game with barely any consequence...

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Quite a number actually.

Some of them are even more known for their fail states lol.

 

[Dary]

In actual dating simulators? Honestly I see more Visual Novels over those these days which kind of requires you to end up with someone. Though admittedly I haven't really paid attention to that genre these days anyway.

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Quite a number actually.

Some of them are even more known for their fail states lol.

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When I say "fail states" I meant as in a way to completely derail relationships, like you can in P3 (where, iirc, attempting to cheat on someone reverses and locks out their social link).

Wasn't sure if the modern standard was to encourage harems because, you know, gotta play to that male power fantasy!

 

[Antiwhippy]

When I say "fail states" I meant as in a way to completely derail relationships, like you can in P3 (where, iirc, attempting to cheat on someone reverses and locks out their social link).

Wasn't sure if the modern standard was to encourage harems because, you know, gotta play to that male power fantasy!

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Oh totally. That's usually where they like to go buckwild too. Not to say that it's good that they do though, because some of them really like to engage in "insanity in love" tropes.

 

[Syril]

When I say "fail states" I meant as in a way to completely derail relationships, like you can in P3 (where, iirc, attempting to cheat on someone reverses and locks out their social link).

Wasn't sure if the modern standard was to encourage harems because, you know, gotta play to that male power fantasy!

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Well there was that game School Days that was famous for the bad endings where the love interests would go crazy and murder each other and/or you. So much so that the anime they made of it was based on them.

 

[Dary]

Oh totally. That's usually where they like to go buckwild too. Not to say that it's good that they do though, because some of them really like to engage in "insanity in love" tropes.

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Well there was that game School Days that was famous for the bad endings where the love interests would go crazy and murder each other and/or you. So much so that the anime they made of it was based on them.

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Asking for characters to behave like actual human beings really is asking a lot when it comes to video games...

 

[Don Fluffles]

Asking for characters to behave like actual human beings really is asking a lot when it comes to video games...

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I don't know, the endings where Makoto got killed was pretty cathartic.

 

[Antiwhippy]

To be fair not acting like actual human beings is part of the appeal in a way. This goes for visual novels, otomes, or anime inspired games in general. Even more well-known written ones tend to swing for the outlandish rather than the grounded.

 

[Dary]

To be fair not acting like actual human beings is part of the appeal in a way. This goes for visual novels, otomes, or anime inspired games in general. Even more well-known written ones tend to swing for the outlandish rather than the grounded.

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Aye. It's one of the reasons I've soured on JRPGs over the years - too many characters acting like two-dimensional cliches defined by some intensely juvenile "quirk".

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Asking for characters to behave like actual human beings really is asking a lot when it comes to video games...

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Something like School Days would be super dull if they actually acted like normal humans.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Aye. It's one of the reasons I've soured on JRPGs over the years - too many characters acting like two-dimensional cliches defined by some intensely juvenile "quirk".

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Depends really, I do agree that a lot of the writing is dependant on a character-defining quirk, but it becomes more interesting if the writing know how to complicate that in interesting ways that ties into the story. It's kinda why I loved night in the woods last year. Most of the better visual novels I've read tend to have this characteristic.

I guess that also requires them to not be two dimensional lol.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Yep. I believe there was one occasion where it was actually necessary.

As cool as The Boss was, Kojima really doesn't have the best history in this regard.

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From reading Kojima's movie reviews and insights I think we'll see him go in a different direction with female characters than his usual with Death Stranding. He seems...different. But only time will tell.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

Well there was that game School Days that was famous for the bad endings where the love interests would go crazy and murder each other and/or you. So much so that the anime they made of it was based on them.

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This reminds me how I began to watch the anime for romance. It was so awful in every way possible but the end actually surprised me.

 

[Choppasmith]

This reminds me how I began to watch the anime for romance. It was so awful in every way possible but the end actually surprised me.

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I remember reading the comments for an ANN story, or maybe it was just on their forum, but it was talking about harem anime like Tenchi and if there was anything ever the main guy actually takes advantage of the girls fawning over him. Someone threw out School Days. I was intrigued at the idea myself so I have gave it a shot and... Oh boy. I remember skipping through a few episodes. I just remember thinking, "God that guy is such an asshole. But it IS different than having the "clueless" protagonist I'll give it that much."

 

[texhnolyze]

I was looking at Reddit/Switch and saw this Xenoblade Chronicles 2 figure up for pre-order. Needless to say the conversation gets very weird, very fast.

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Yeah, the sexualization in Xenoblade 2 actually gets worse the further you progress. Pyra is nothing compared to the designs of some of the characters revealed later.

 

[Grain Silo]

I miss when Fire Emblem characters looked like this: