Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

rras1994 · Feb 20, 2018

RalchAC said:
I've been recently reading some stuff about how to create an alien species for a story I'm currently writing and came across this link which has interesting information and links to other interesting sites. Some of the articles referenced over there that I've actually liked were the two following ones:

- The first one explicitely mentions Mass Effect, so I think it'd be interesting to link it here.
- The other one seems to consider different theories about aliens and if it's possible that they'd be similar to us.

I recently read The Mote in God's Eye and the alien species was without a doubt the best part of it. It was interesting, because the aliens shown there while being bipedal, had a really different mindset, culture and society compared to humanity in the book. Their sexuality is kept as a secret for a long while and when it's finally unveiled it has quite a long standing impact in their history. The author of the blog where the original article links sex (more how the species reproduces than in a more specific way) with a lot of social customs, which honestly makes a lot of sense too.

It's a shame videogames don't explore non-antropomorph alien species more. I get that for some stuff like early Star Wars and Star Trek it may be complicated to go all out due to the need to use costumes and other budget-related concerns. But videogames shouldn't have the same problem. An example that's given in one of those articles is that in a world with much higher gravity than ours, having 2 legs would be impractical.

Actually it is more difficult in video games as you'd have to do completely new animations (or was it rigging they said? This was explained by a dev somewhere a long time ago where I can't remember where exactly :P) which is why the main species/ enemy species are bipedal in Mass Effect. The non-bipedal ones like the Hanar, Elcor and the Rachni you'll notice they don't use them as much or have them move cus it just increases the expense. Heck, it's important to remember that for a very long time, Mass Effect didn't even have female models of many species, again cus it's expensive to do.

Rowlf · Feb 20, 2018

Kodama said:
As someone who's been gaming since the late 80's, I'd like know where this "idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure" came from. I know this is only anecdotal evidence, but I've never met a single man who referred to women this way, and gamers in general seem to be even more respectful of women than the average non-gaming man I come across. I can certainly see why you would jump to the conclusion that all the skimpy outfits are communicating such a message, but the message in question doesn't really seem to be communicated at a human level... again anecdotally in my world...

Anecdotal evidence that reinforces your position is okay, but anecdotal evidence that doesn't...

Kodama said:
This is the opposite of anecdotal evidence though lol. This is a few fringe crazy people doing crazy things as reported by the media. We don't judge an entire group of people for that kinda stuff, right?

just gets dismissed. Furthermore, by dismissing the media reported stores as being a "few fringe crazy people," you're dismissing the anecdotal evidence of other users in this very thread, who have talked about being harassed.

Kodama said:
Most gamers in general don't even know who Anita is. The point I was trying to make is I've never heard ANY man ever say anything like "women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure" or believes that in any way. The few people who do think like that are social outcasts that don't get alot with the rest of society. At least that's how I see it...

Again, anecdotal evidence that supports your position is A-okay, while downplaying anecdotal evidence that doesn't.

It's fine if you want to form your opinion around your own life experiences. But it's a big damn world, and people have had different experiences than yourself. Trying to argue from authority based upon what you have personally experienced while downplaying the personal experiences of others isn't going to fly here. When you get back in 3 days, you're welcome to share your experiences if you can do so without attempting to dismiss the experiences of other users here.

Weltall Zero · Feb 20, 2018

Saucycarpdog said:
Going back to alien/monstrous female designs, I do want to give props to Young Justice and Supergirl for their designs of Miss Martians true form. It would have been so easy for them to either ignore her white martian backstory or make the design more sexualized.

Man, Young Justice was so. freaking. good. Feels like I've been waiting for that third season forever, really hoping it hits its 2018 target.

Dary · Feb 20, 2018

Tizoc said:
So I'm playing Final Fantasy 12 and while I enjoy it, Ashe is wearing the most unpractical and dumbest outfit ever (also why is there a veil on Fran's stomach?)

Like where do I even BEGIN, even looking at it from the back it's just unbelievable. It's like she went to the royal Dalmascan tailor and told him 'Just fuck my shit up' and went about taking pieces of clothing and cutting stuff out from them. What is even up with those footwear?

Some of the main characters in FF12 have really absurd clothing, like Vaan and Basche. What I find even most weird is with Vossler

WHY IS THERE A BELT AROUND HIS NECK?! WHAT KINDA FASHION STATEMENT IS HE TRYING TO GIVE?!

Thankfully Balthier dresses like the classy leading man that he is

Yoshida certainly has his...artistic quirks.

Redcrayon · Feb 20, 2018

"In the grand scheme of things, and this would include almost all aspects of life, the number of solutions available is very limited," said Simon Conway Morris, a professor of evolutionary paleobiology at the University of Cambridge.

Nevertheless, as Conway Morris noted, the "diversity of life on Earth is enormous." That humankind looks the way it does, or that an intelligent breed of spiders did not instead evolve to build cities and smartphones, is largely due to chance, other researchers maintain.

Are we allowed to choose who's idea we support based on which lets us sleep easier at night?
(like we don't do that on various other unsolvable questions already!)

Redcrayon · Feb 20, 2018

Dary said:
Yoshida certainly has his...artistic quirks.

aren't you supposed to show him with his arse hanging out :P

Dary · Feb 20, 2018

Nevertheless, as Conway Morris noted, the "diversity of life on Earth is enormous." That humankind looks the way it does, or that an intelligent breed of spiders did not instead evolve to build cities and smartphones, is largely due to chance, other researchers maintain.

40f8844b581a9f79aa95390aec36efaa--babylon--science-fiction.jpg

Mass Effect wanted so badly to be Video Game Babylon 5.

It failed.

Weltall Zero · Feb 20, 2018

Korigama said:
If anything, P3's "can't max'em if you don't date'em" approach and the weird lack of S. Links for any of the male party members in your group (a mistake that neither P4 nor P5 made) arguably encouraged building a harem in ways that its successors didn't. That said, P5 could've used more than one woman who wasn't dateable (and whose bond didn't rank up automatically with the story anyway).

While I didn't remember the "mandatory dating for social link max" aspect of P3, it's still considerably better than later games. This came up in an email conversation with Redcrayon so let me cut and paste:

Persona 3: 21 social links, of which 3 are dateable.
Persona 4: 21 social links (23 in Golden) of which 7 (8 in Golden) are dateable.
Persona 5: 21 confidants, of which 9 are dateable.

As for P3 not having social links with male party members, I for one wish social links with party members were gone entirely. The entire point of them for me is to hear someone else's story, not spend even more time with one of the protagonists. Of course they're now linked to actual party member perks, so they're probably here to stay.

Kodama said:
and gamers in general seem to be even more respectful of women than the average non-gaming man I come across

*peeks down the page* This is just starting, isn't it? :S

ara said:
Gamers are respectful tho

"respects you"
"bitch"
I'm dying here. :D

Dice · Feb 20, 2018

Dary said:
Yoshida certainly has his...artistic quirks.

I DO weirdly like Yoshida because he's a 'thigh-guy'. As a girl with thighs that barely get tinier no matter how much I work out, it makes me feel a wee bit better than some people would like 'em. xD

His designs are very unique too...what with their famous lack of noses on his chibi-er styled art.

In terms of sexualization: It could be worse is about the best I can say haha...ho...

Weltall Zero · Feb 20, 2018

Kodama said:
While I agree 100%, think about what you're saying. Those odds that 1 person out of the several hundred she will interact with online will be a creep does not make those other guys creeps...

I refuse to believe you've even once in your life talked to a women who games online if you think creeps are "one in several hundred".

Kodama said:
We've really deviated from what I was trying to explore. I guess that's impossible here... oh well, thanks for trying to help...

Your arguments have been made and debunked (sorry, "explored" over and over in this thread. There's a fucking hashtag for them.

RalchAC said:
I've been recently reading some stuff about how to create an alien species for a story I'm currently writing and came across this link which has interesting information and links to other interesting sites. Some of the articles referenced over there that I've actually liked were the two following ones:

- The first one explicitely mentions Mass Effect, so I think it'd be interesting to link it here.
- The other one seems to consider different theories about aliens and if it's possible that they'd be similar to us.

I recently read The Mote in God's Eye and the alien species was without a doubt the best part of it. It was interesting, because the aliens shown there while being bipedal, had a really different mindset, culture and society compared to humanity in the book. Their sexuality is kept as a secret for a long while and when it's finally unveiled it has quite a long standing impact in their history. The author of the blog where the original article links sex (more how the species reproduces than in a more specific way) with a lot of social customs, which honestly makes a lot of sense too.

It's a shame videogames don't explore non-antropomorph alien species more. I get that for some stuff like early Star Wars and Star Trek it may be complicated to go all out due to the need to use costumes and other budget-related concerns. But videogames shouldn't have the same problem. An example that's given in one of those articles is that in a world with much higher gravity than ours, having 2 legs would be impractical.

One of my favorite sci-fi novels is A Fire Upon the Deep (by Vernor Vinge, who coined the term "singularity"); it's pretty much space opera, but with a ridiculous level of imagination and creativity in each and every page. The book centers heavily on an alien species that resemble dogs... but each sentient individual (or "pack") is made up of four to six of them, of mixed genders, communicating via super-fast short-range ultrasound. And the book explores ever single ramification from there. For example, close physicality is difficulty as "thoughts" intermingle, and is pretty much only done for inter-pack sex. Something resembling immortality is possible, as second-hand memories are shared between members of the pack, which are replaced as they die. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
The book also features other fascinating aliens, including but not limited to a species of plants uplifted by another species, equipped with artificial memory, speech and locomotion devices. It's freaking great.

Really disliked its two sequel books, though.

Dary said:
Mass Effect wanted so badly to be Video Game Babylon 5.

It failed.

Yeah, they didn't try to hide that the Citadel is pretty much the titular station. :D
Man, B5 was so good. If there's ever a series that would benefit from revising its special effects, it's that. I wonder what Straczynski is up to now that Sense8 was cancelled.

Dice said:
I DO weirdly like Yoshida because he's a 'thigh-guy'. As a girl with thighs that barely get tinier no matter how much I work out, it makes me feel a wee bit better than some people would like 'em. xD

"Some"? Het men are wired to love plump thighs and round figures in general. It's mostly women (and fashion designers, of which you can probaly count het men on a hand's fingers) who seem to be obsessed with looking like stick figures. Yoshida is just appealing to pretty much every men's tastes.

But to be fair, the theme of men being utterly wrong about what women find attractive is a recurring theme in this thread, so we're both guilty of this. In that respect, I guess gay people have it easier at least. :D

Scrooge McDuck · Feb 20, 2018

Aigis said:
I mean, I never got how this turned into a Kojima is a misogynist personally. I think there are tons of examples where he does the exact same thing to male characters

Now my point is not that the objectification of women is not problematic or even that its on the same volume as with the men, but I dont think Kojima as a person is looking to hate women, I think he just more open with sexuality in general. I dont know if its a cultural thing or what have you, but I think we should be able to criticize the work rather than just blanket Kojima hates women.

I hate, hate, hate Kojima's treatment to his female characters in MGS4 so much that it made me second guess his every depictions of women in games prior.

I liked 1 to 3, you know? Even though I did get some niggling discomfort from various scenes spread throughout. I thought to myself "oh it's just harmless pandering for the guys," "oh it's just the creator's cultural blind spot," "oh it's simply that the character is kinda sexist, not the game," etc. Every time I felt like I'm being too sensitive, I conjured up these rationale so I could feel good about them. Then with MGS4 it seems like Kojima lost all pretense and I just felt stupid.

At this point it doesn't really matter to me whether he actually actively hates women or not; somebody gotta tell him to stop because those stuff is fricking unwelcoming.

Also, unless he actually has a male character that could be recognized by the sway of his butt or a group of mentally-handicapped men whose only notable qualities are their handsome model faces, skintight outfits, and their tendency break into sexy poses in the middle of a fight, then I'd hardly say that "he does the exact same thing to male characters," let alone tons.

SchrodingerC · Feb 20, 2018

Kodama said:
gamers in general seem to be even more respectful of women than the average non-gaming man I come across

When I think certain posts in this thread couldn't get more absurd y'all just keep outdoing each other.
The gaming community's most infamous movement, aka gamergate, sure as fuck wasn't born from the respect of women.

Weltall Zero · Feb 20, 2018

Scrooge McDuck said:
I hate, hate, hate Kojima's treatment to his female characters in MGS4 so much that it made me second guess his every depictions of women in games prior. It doesn't really matter to me whether he actually actively hates women or not; somebody gotta tell him to stop because those stuff is fricking unwelcoming.

Yeah, he's always been a freaking creepy weirdo, but at least he seemed to be recovering. Then he puts literal model photo sessions in the middle of MGS4... -_-

The long article linked above and the relationship between Snake and Otakon sure shines an interesting light on his buddy-buddy relationship with Guillermo del Toro... It's a common trope, and one I actually like when done right.

Persephone · Feb 20, 2018

Kodama said:
gamers in general seem to be even more respectful of women than the average non-gaming man I come across

i know ur banned and all but

RalchAC · Feb 20, 2018

Redcrayon said:
Interesting stuff!

Some of the reproductive methods of our earthly cousins under the sea, tiny in size or in extreme environments can be super-weird too.

I was watching a video about how frogs mate and it was hilarious in a low key way. You have the male frog, croaking in the middle of nowhere. The female arrives to his call, he mounts her, and both stare at the horizon while the lower half of their bodies are underwater while croaking. After a few minutes, the male frog just leaves as if nothing happened. It's the kind of thing you'd see in one of those Rick and Morty episodes where they use the interdimensional TV remote.

rras1994 said:
Actually it is more difficult in video games as you'd have to do completely new animations (or was it rigging they said? This was explained by a dev somewhere a long time ago where I can't remember where exactly :P) which is why the main species/ enemy species are bipedal in Mass Effect. The non-bipedal ones like the Hanar, Elcor and the Rachni you'll notice they don't use them as much or have them move cus it just increases the expense. Heck, it's important to remember that for a very long time, Mass Effect didn't even have female models of many species, again cus it's expensive to do.

Oh, I didn't really thought of it in that way. I'll have to keep pursuing my non-traditional alien designs in books then.

Weltall Zero said:
I refuse to believe you've even once in your life talked to a women who games online if you think creeps are "one in several hundred".

Your arguments have been made and debunked (sorry, "explored" over and over in this thread. There's a fucking hashtag for them.

It's a strange situation to me. Maybe I've had really good luck, but the people I've befriended both online and in real life that are into gaming, anime and other geeky stuff have always been nice, progressive and inclusive people.

But then, when I was playing WoW I remember that the women that were in the guild I was part of would refuse to use any kind of voice chat with anybody but their guildmates. We sometimes would go with randoms to do a raid, the organiser would ask everyone to go to TeamSpeak and they'd say something along the lines of "sorry, my mic is broken" in order to not have their genders exposed.

In general, when I've played online, the trend I've seen is that women play with randoms much less than men. I'd say that they're wary due to their past experiences, not because of some kind of irrational fear. So I'd say my personal experience means nothing in the great scheme of things :P

Weltall Zero said:
One of my favorite sci-fi novels is A Fire Upon the Deep (by Vernor Vinge, who coined the term "singularity"); it's pretty much space opera, but with a ridiculous level of imagination and creativity in each and every page. The book centers heavily on an alien species that resemble dogs... but each sentient individual (or "pack") is made up of four to six of them, of mixed genders, communicating via super-fast short-range ultrasound. And the book explores ever single ramification from there. For example, close physicality is difficulty as "thoughts" intermingle, and is pretty much only done for inter-pack sex. Something resembling immortality is possible, as second-hand memories are shared between members of the pack, which are replaced as they die. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
The book also features other fascinating aliens, including but not limited to a species of plants uplifted by another species, equipped with artificial memory, speech and locomotion devices. It's freaking great.

Really disliked its two sequel books, though.

I'll give it a look. I've been on a sci-fi mood lately so I'll give it a look. So far I'm getting info scattered online and trying to form my own spreadsheet with the amount of vital information I need to fill in order to make a consistent and believable bunch. It's a much more complicated matter than it initially seems.

Turin · Feb 20, 2018

Kojima's an inexcusable shitheaded creep but I do find it ironic that he, I suspect unintentionally, provided a rare image of almost eroticized vulnerability in a male protagonist.

Morrigan · Feb 20, 2018

Turin said:
Kojima's an inexcusable shitheaded creep but I do find it ironic that he, I suspect unintentionally, provided a rare image of almost eroticized vulnerability in a male protagonist.

I mentioned that before. Just about one of the only "female fanservice" instance I remember seeing in a game, and I'm almost certain it was not intentional.

Deleted member 4037 · Feb 20, 2018

Scrooge McDuck said:
I hate, hate, hate Kojima's treatment to his female characters in MGS4 so much that it made me second guess his every depictions of women in games prior.

I liked 1 to 3, you know? Even though I did get some niggling discomfort from various scenes spread throughout. I thought to myself "oh it's just harmless pandering for the guys," "oh it's just the creator's cultural blind spot," "oh it's simply that the character is kinda sexist, not the game," etc. Every time I felt like I'm being too sensitive, I conjured up these rationale so I could feel good about them. Then with MGS4 it seems like Kojima lost all pretense and I just felt stupid.

At this point it doesn't really matter to me whether he actually actively hates women or not; somebody gotta tell him to stop because those stuff is fricking unwelcoming.

Also, unless he actually has a male character that could be recognized by the sway of his butt or a group of mentally-handicapped men whose only notable qualities are their handsome model faces, skintight outfits, and their tendency break into sexy poses in the middle of a fight, then I'd hardly say that "he does the exact same thing to male characters," let alone tons.

I mean thats fine to criticize Kojima, there is a lot you can, my point is I dont get how he as a person is painted as a this huge misogynist when there are examples of males being treated pretty much as pieces of meat too. Again not in the same frequency or intensity, but there none the less.

Deleted member 4037 · Feb 20, 2018

Morrigan said:
I mentioned that before. Just about one of the only "female fanservice" instance I remember seeing in a game, and I'm almost certain it was not intentional.

date with kaz? I dont think Kojima is against female fanservice if thats what we want to call it

psychowave · Feb 20, 2018

BossAttack said:
I love absolutisms. And no, I don't feel like retorting to a "dead" blog post, that is about 50 or so pages long, on mobile, just to satisfy you. The author already started to lose me when they decided to dismiss Otacon, they neared the deep end by inserting weird homophobia into the mix, and then lost me once and for all by trying to state that Decoy Octopus was tantamount to black face.

Sorry, but as a black dude I don't need to read that shit. I didn't bother to look up the author, but something tells me they aren't black. Go make your point without trying to invoke racism when you don't know what you're talking about.

To be frank, I don't particularly care what you think about that blog post. Kojima is a misogynist whether you agree with whoever wrote that post or not.

Aigis said:
I mean thats fine to criticize Kojima, there is a lot you can, my point is I dont get how he as a person is painted as a this huge misogynist when there are examples of males being treated pretty much as pieces of meat too. Again not in the same frequency or intensity, but there none the less.

Does Kojima have many games where the female protagonist can sexually assault every male character she encounters (including one that's underage), without any sort of repercussion? Does Kojima have many games where the female characters talk to each other about how vain and evil men are? Does Kojima have many games where men are subjected to sexualized violence?

but I guess there's a few shirtless men in his games which is totally the same thing or something

AztecComplex · Feb 20, 2018

Aigis said:
date with kaz? I dont think Kojima is against female fanservice if thats what we want to call it

Im pretty sure that was played for laughs though. But that may just be me.

Deleted member 4037 · Feb 20, 2018

AztecComplex said:
Im pretty sure that was played for laughs though. But that may just be me.

I mean, I dont disagree with you, but you can argue that a lot of fanservice from kojima is played for laughs like the pinup posters you put on boxes or eva in mgs3 being part of the bond knockoff motif

MattWilsonCSS · Feb 20, 2018

Aigis said:
I mean thats fine to criticize Kojima, there is a lot you can, my point is I dont get how he as a person is painted as a this huge misogynist when there are examples of males being treated pretty much as pieces of meat too. Again not in the same frequency or intensity, but there none the less.

I mean that just means he's a misogynist that also has done misandrist material as well. i don't know that 'equal opportunity offender' makes things any better.

Deleted member 4037 · Feb 20, 2018

MattWilsonCSS said:
I mean that just means he's a misogynist that also has done misandrist material as well. i don't know that 'equal opportunity offender' makes things any better.

I mean how can you be prejudiced agaisnt both sides? You have to favor one inherently on the definition. He can be a person who puts objectified material of both sexes, but that doesnt translate to a single rooted stance against one side if that makes sense.

Morrigan · Feb 20, 2018

Kojima doesn't portray men as "pieces of meat" the way he does his female characters. He has shown male nudity played for laughs (Raiden) for an already unpopular character. He has shown a vulnerable shirtless Snake in a scene where he's injured after fighting and needs to treat himself (unlikely to be intentionally titillating, but I'll grant that it's possible he thought "hey this is what chicks find hot"). I don't know about that "date with Kaz" thing, but even if it's meant to be fanservicey, it's still an incredibly minor instance among the great diversity of his male characters. If he objectifies male characters, they are the exception, not the norm. The complete opposite is true for female characters; non-objectified ones are the exception, and they are objectified in far creepier and exploitative ways than one single scene with a shirtless Snake ever will be. He even went as far as objectifying a blatantly underage character.

MattWilsonCSS · Feb 20, 2018

Aigis said:
I mean how can you be prejudiced agaisnt both sides? You have to favor one inherently on the definition.

I mean based on sheer quantity I would say he does favor one inherently.

Deleted member 4037 · Feb 20, 2018

MattWilsonCSS said:
I mean based on sheer quantity I would say he does favor one inherently.

If we are going by ratios than I think most of the world is misogynistic, for that term to apply I would think its an all or nothing stance.

Dary · Feb 20, 2018

I'm trying to picture a genderswapped MGS. It would be like, what, Sarah Conner vs the Goblin King?

Deleted member 4037 · Feb 20, 2018

Morrigan said:
He even went as far as objectifying a blatantly underage character.

Just curious who youre referring to

Dary said:
I'm trying to picture a genderswapped MGS. It would be like, what, Sarah Conner vs the Goblin King?

SISTER!!!

MattWilsonCSS · Feb 20, 2018

Aigis said:
If we are going by ratios than I think most of the world is misogynistic

I mean, most of the world IS misogynist. We're not seriously going to argue that next, are we?

Dary · Feb 20, 2018

Aigis said:
I mean how can you be prejudiced agaisnt both sides?

I mean, all it takes is a self-loathing man who takes his personal issues out on women?

Morrigan · Feb 20, 2018

Aigis said:
Just curious who youre referring to

Snatcher has been brought up multiple times already.

Aigis said:
If we are going by ratios than I think most of the world is misogynistic, for that term to apply I would think its an all or nothing stance.

...What do you even mean by that?

Deleted member 4037 · Feb 20, 2018

Dary said:
I mean, all it takes is a self-loathing man who takes his personal issues out on women?

so he just hates everyone?

MattWilsonCSS · Feb 20, 2018

Aigis said:
so he just hates everyone?

Everyone but Geoff Keighley

Deleted member 4037 · Feb 20, 2018

Morrigan said:
...What do you even mean by that?

Im probably going to drop this cause I can tell its not going over well, but I would mean there is a certain point where I think there is a difference between personal attacks and criticizing a work. To be labeled as a misogynist I would think it would have be geared on a complete slant, rather than having both which can be construed as just not being concerned with sexuality. That doesnt mean you cant and shouldnt attack the work where you see fit, but I dont know if that deserves to get him the moniker. Maybe there is just a disconnect on how we are using the term though

Deleted member 4037 · Feb 20, 2018

MattWilsonCSS said:
Everyone but Geoff Keighley

or del toro...
... or reedus
... or mikkelsen

Kojima has quite the group, but Keighley has to be the most devoted

Weltall Zero · Feb 20, 2018

RalchAC said:
It's a strange situation to me. Maybe I've had really good luck, but the people I've befriended both online and in real life that are into gaming, anime and other geeky stuff have always been nice, progressive and inclusive people.

Nothing to do with luck, all to do with selection bias. Would you have befriended them if they were mean, racist and sexist? :)

RalchAC said:
I'll give it a look. I've been on a sci-fi mood lately so I'll give it a look. So far I'm getting info scattered online and trying to form my own spreadsheet with the amount of vital information I need to fill in order to make a consistent and believable bunch. It's a much more complicated matter than it initially seems.

I think the best way to come up with unique aliens is to use the core principle of science fiction, extrapolation. Think of an environmental change, a specific evolutionary pressure or opportunity in their home world, and then think how they might have evolved to adapt to that. This has the side advantage of providing both backstory and believability / internal consistence.

Dary said:
I'm trying to picture a genderswapped MGS. It would be like, what, Sarah Conner vs the Goblin King?

I would watch the fuck out of that. Like, holy shit.

Antiwhippy · Feb 20, 2018

I'm still trying to find a fictional alien that tops the hooloovoo, who are basically a hyper intelligent shade of blue.

cosmicblizzard · Feb 20, 2018

Dary said:
Simple explanation, really: escapism. Gaming, comics, anime etc all provide a means of escaping the real world, so they're attractive to people who struggle with other humans (and aren't willing to learn or adapt).

I think it's good to take into account the potential neurological issues that come with the territory of gravitating toward asocial hobbies. Aspergers/autism, avoidant personalities, schizoid disorders, depression and other mood disorders, social anxiety, etc. Anecdotally speaking, pretty much everyone I know deep into gaming and anime including myself has at least one of these, some of which have unfortunately fallen down the more toxic holes of the hobbies. I think calling it an unwillingness to learn or adapt may be simplifying the issue.

Dary · Feb 20, 2018

cosmicblizzard said:
I think it's good to take into account the potential neurological issues that come with the territory of gravitating toward asocial hobbies. Aspergers/autism, avoidant personalities, schizoid disorders, depression and other mood disorders, social anxiety, etc. Anecdotally speaking, pretty much everyone I know deep into gaming and anime including myself has at least one of these, some of which have unfortunately fallen down the more toxic holes of the hobbies. I think calling it an unwillingness to learn or adapt may be simplifying the issue.

I mean, I'm some kind of autistic-bipolar-borderline hybrid of crazy (seriously, it all depends on which doctor/specialist you speak to) so I know all about the allure of losing yourself to a fantasy world where you don't have to deal with shit - and I've seen people fall into that toxic abyss because of it.

But it's not an excuse for treating others (in this case, women) like crap - and I've seen far too many people try to use it as one.

weemadarthur · Feb 20, 2018

Antiwhippy said:
I'm still trying to find a fictional alien that tops the hooloovoo, who are basically a hyper intelligent shade of blue.

Yes except the only thing one ever did was to be refracted into a prism. At least Asimov occasionally wrote an alien that did something newish.

cosmicblizzard · Feb 20, 2018

Dary said:
I mean, I'm some kind of autistic-bipolar-borderline hybrid of crazy (seriously, it all depends on which doctor/specialist you speak to) so I know all about the allure of losing yourself to a fantasy world where you don't have to deal with shit - and I've seen people fall into that toxic abyss because of it.

But it's not an excuse for treating others (in this case, women) like crap - and I've seen far too many people try to use it as one.

Oh, never said it was an excuse. Understanding why something happens isn't justifying it happening. People are ultimately responsible for their actions regardless of the external and internal factors that lead to those actions. I just think it's good to bring up why people gravitate towards certain hobbies and that the solution to the toxic nature of said hobbies may not be so simple when certain behavior is inherent to one's very being.

Antiwhippy · Feb 20, 2018

weemadarthur said:
Yes except the only thing one ever did was to be refracted into a prism. At least Asimov occasionally wrote an alien that did something newish.

Hah, I mean it was mostly meant to be flavour text but it was still something that stuck with me all these years.

I do like Adam's depiction of aliens being weirdly mundane.

Deleted member 7130 · Feb 20, 2018

Kodama said:
As someone who's been gaming since the late 80's, I'd like know where this "idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure" came from. I know this is only anecdotal evidence, but I've never met a single man who referred to women this way, and gamers in general seem to be even more respectful of women than the average non-gaming man I come across. I can certainly see why you would jump to the conclusion that all the skimpy outfits are communicating such a message, but the message in question doesn't really seem to be communicated at a human level... again anecdotally in my world...

Oh boy, did I miss a good one...

Dary · Feb 20, 2018

cosmicblizzard said:
Oh, never said it was an excuse. Understanding why something happens isn't justifying it happening. People are ultimately responsible for their actions regardless of the external and internal factors that lead to those actions. I just think it's good to bring up why people gravitate towards certain hobbies and that the solution to the toxic nature of said hobbies may not be so simple when certain behavior is inherent to one's very being.

What everyone should always remember is that, just as these hobbies attract people who struggle to find their place in the real world - because they attract such people - they are also very appealing to extremely toxic individuals. It's no secret that certain narcissistic fellows deliberately took advantage of geek culture to cultivate support for their far-right beliefs, playing on that insecurity, disillusionment and detachment to stoke anger towards their perceived opponents.

This isn't new: it's a classic fascist tactic that has cropped up time and again. And, of course, this doesn't always have to relate to world politics, either - I'm sure most of us will have encountered individuals desperate to assert their authority over a social club or fan forum, some behaving with the sort of totalitarian fervour you'd expect from a cult leader or vainglorious President...

Korigama · Feb 20, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
While I didn't remember the "mandatory dating for social link max" aspect of P3, it's still considerably better than later games. This came up in an email conversation with Redcrayon so let me cut and paste:

Persona 3: 21 social links, of which 3 are dateable.
Persona 4: 21 social links (23 in Golden) of which 7 (8 in Golden) are dateable.
Persona 5: 21 confidants, of which 9 are dateable.

As for P3 not having social links with male party members, I for one wish social links with party members were gone entirely. The entire point of them for me is to hear someone else's story, not spend even more time with one of the protagonists. Of course they're now linked to actual party member perks, so they're probably here to stay.

If your assessment is that less options for what's essentially dating sim lite = better, perhaps (not really inclined to agree). It's also incorrect that only the first three within your party are dateable. P3's approach is objectively inferior for making dating anyone mandatory. The entire point of them is not simply to spend time with people and hear their stories, but to forge bonds with them, a recurring theme throughout modern Persona and cited within the narratives for those games as key to the protagonist gaining the power to overcome the challenges ahead of them. You don't have to like this idea, but it is important to know what it is that they were going for with it. As of P5, they are not only linked to party member perks, but gameplay and shop bonuses tied to NPCs as well.

Either way, yes, they are here to stay.

Scrooge McDuck · Feb 20, 2018

Aigis said:
Im probably going to drop this cause I can tell its not going over well, but I would mean there is a certain point where I think there is a difference between personal attacks and criticizing a work. To be labeled as a misogynist I would think it would have be geared on a complete slant, rather than having both which can be construed as just not being concerned with sexuality. That doesnt mean you cant and shouldnt attack the work where you see fit, but I dont know if that deserves to get him the moniker. Maybe there is just a disconnect on how we are using the term though

I get the urge to remain mild and pleasant in criticism. "Misogyny" is a strong word, after all, and inserting it into a conversation brings a certain degree of discomfort. There are limits, though, and personally Kojima has strayed past that.

I like Mei Ling. She's an brilliant researcher who, even after losing her position, managed to join the Navy and rise through the ranks to become the Captain of a battleship. Then I found out that she apparently got there due to a perverted admiral pulling some strings. Then the first time she appears in MGS4, she fumbles in a really amateurish ways, resulting in her obliviously thrusting her ass towards all the ogling male soldiers. How am I supposed to take this scene? What male character has his authority and competence thoroughly undermined like this?

Enter the Beauty Corps, those group of sexy, pretty ladies whose minds are so broken that they could rarely form coherent sentences on a good day. And there are four of them! Their trauma run so deep that they have no choice but to continue fighting, they have no choice but to occasionally drop into a fit of intense insane emotion, they have no choice but to suddenly break into sexy poses for the camera during their battle euphoria. Because they are insane, see! What male characters have their self-worth and autonomy completely denied like that?

It's not just about bare skin, pandering and shows of sexuality, but also about what's sacrificed to get there. Kojima might not be actively look down on women, creating these characters while cackling "that'd show 'em!" But his works, whether he realizes it or not, continuously demonstrate hostility and disrespect towards women. We just reacted accordingly.

siteseer · Feb 20, 2018

Turin said:
Kojima's an inexcusable shitheaded creep but I do find it ironic that he, I suspect unintentionally, provided a rare image of almost eroticized vulnerability in a male protagonist.

Morrigan said:
I mentioned that before. Just about one of the only "female fanservice" instance I remember seeing in a game, and I'm almost certain it was not intentional.

i've not participated here and i don't mean to be a drive-by but isn't kojima the one who gave us raiden because he market tested school girls and asked them what they wanted to see in his games? if anyone intentionally eroticizes his male characters for female fans it would be kojima.

Weltall Zero · Feb 20, 2018

Korigama said:
If your assessment is that less options for what's essentially dating sim lite = better, perhaps (not really inclined to agree).

My assessment is that turning literally every single female social link into a dateable girl is problematic in the extreme. If you don't understand why, you might be in the wrong thread.

Korigama said:
It's also incorrect that only the first three within your party are dateable.

Correct, I miscounted, it's five total. Out of 20, that's still one fourth, so I don't have a clue where the hell you're getting "dating sim lite" besides projecting.

Korigama said:
P3's approach is objectively inferior for making dating anyone mandatory.

A single negative aspect on an older game doesn't invalidate other positives, and certainly doesn't necessarily make it "objectively inferior". Plus according to you they're dating sims anyway so that'd be working as intended, no?

Korigama said:
The entire point of them is not simply to spend time with people and hear their stories, but to forge bonds with them, a recurring theme throughout modern Persona and cited within the narratives for those games as key to the protagonist gaining the power to overcome the challenges ahead of them. You don't have to like this idea, but it is important to know what it is that they were going for with it.

I like this idea, which is why I criticise they turned them into shallow dating sims instead of actual bond development with a variety of people. You're making my case for me. :)

Unless, of course, your argument is that the only way to make a significant bond with someone of the opposite gender is to romance them?

Korigama said:
As of P5, they are not only linked to party member perks, but gameplay and shop bonuses tied to NPCs as well.
Either way, yes, they are here to stay.

Both of which I already acknowledged, but feel free to repeat them like one of Persona 5's phone chat conversations. :)

Dragmire · Feb 20, 2018

For those concerned about how Kojima will portray female characters in DS don't worry : https://www.vg247.com/2017/01/26/ko...ent-approach-to-overly-sexualised-characters/

you'll be ashamed of your words and deeds again.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

User requested ban

Game Developer

Patient hunter

Patient hunter

Game Developer

Game Developer

Game Developer

Spear of the Metal Church

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

Spear of the Metal Church

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

Spear of the Metal Church

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

Game Developer

Community Resettler

User requested account closure

Game Developer

▲ Legend ▲