Where did I even say anything about this game excluding races in this thread? What on earth are you even talking about?
Kingdom Come Deliverance - Review Thread
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Where did I even say anything about this game excluding races in this thread? What on earth are you even talking about?
In this case someone has allready put forward a case that I can see merit too, it's everyone else trying to debunk their case.
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Plus the overarching use of words like nazi to describe Vavra, someone who's family was persecuted by actual nazis, as was mine, yet people today think it's ok to throw that around just because there no black people in a game
you're acting as if this is an innocent conversation about a game, it's clearly not.
There are potions which restore some health over time but you cannot use them in combat and they don't work when you're bleeding. You would first need to apply bandages to stop the bleeding and then rest or apply a potion to restore your health. No, it's far from historically accurate but it's also not like you are popping twenty potions mid battle to keep you going. It's still a game so compromises need to be made between gameplay and historical accuracy.
Like I'm actually not bothered by their not being black people in the game. My reaction is "eh." it's the "but it's historically accurate." part that just irritates me. Games in particular will bend rules (even their own rules!) for player enjoyment because that's how they make their money and grow their business. It's just so fake to pretend otherwise.
But Vavra muddied the waters all on his own. His position was immediately compromised by his own views.
Vavra has responded to a question he asked to himself. No one forced him to do anything, he just takes any forum debate for a moral imperative or a Kotaku article for an UN resolution, like any random impulsive triggered maniac overreact on twitter. Then transformed that into a marketing argument, like HEY LOOK, I DIDN'T DO WHAT NO ONE FORCED ME TO DO.
So the more you focus on what is someways accurate but synced with his far-right opinion, the more you renforce him in a role of victim he has endorsed voluntarily. The Eurogamer review is clear about that, they didn't not said the game is racist in any way, they just interrogate these arguments he pushed himself.
So the more you focus on what is someways accurate but synced with his far-right opinion, the more you renforce him in a role of victim he has endorsed voluntarily. The Eurogamer review is clear about that, they didn't not said the game is racist in any way, they just interrogate these arguments he pushed himself.
Actually I can hate him because he thinks less of me because of my race.
FYI, images like that aren't particularly accurate. It lacks time relevant information and removes context by claiming "spice routes" and "silk routes" when in reality the route taken depended on the trader, the merchandise, and the political climate at that moment in time.
For example, after the fall of Moravia a trade route did exist into central Europe that went up the Danube and through Prague and Cracow (around the 9th and 10th centuries). It primarily was used to sell slaves in both directions. A lot of the slave traders were of Jewish or Middle Eastern ethnicity.
The Silk Road and similar historic trade routes weren't like rolling down I-95.
Except the Eurogamer review is full of factual errors, pushed as facts. They got the geometry of where the Silk Road went completely wrong and used stupid "what if?" and "It's not conclusive proof but" arguments, rather than relying on evidence to support their claims. The golden rule is if you're going to argue against claims you think to be false, then for heavens sake, don't use more conjecture as a counter. It just makes the reviewer look stupid, or worse, intentionally dishonest.
User Banned (3 Days): Intentionally ignoring site policy. Defending bigoted views.
I don't even think the boards rules alow me to question your statement...
A great post.
I blame it on most "journalists" today coming from the console world.
Yeah don't bother. You'll either get a warning or straight up ban
Then I'm out for this thread, in a world where everyone wants a conversation but you have to agree with them...
I'm joining you pal. This thread got off-topic and ultra-toxic really, really quickly.
First of all I said 'almost impossible'. You are the one who is argueing history with me. The onus is on you dude. The devs have stated they didnt include poc because its not realistic for poc to be inhabitants of this particular area around this particular time.
I dont know why its on me to prove that lol.
Because you are equating discussing this standpoint with you "stanning and batting for a racist".
User Warned: Arguing in Bad Faith
So apparently you are willing to call Joanna Nowak, the other 100+ people on the team, and the top czech historians racist in order to justify your agenda. That's interesting, but has no bearing on reality.
I mean a quick google search found me this:
The main part of the Silk Road may end around the Middle-East, but trade happened all over. It's definitely possible. Once you see that it is possible, his defiance (and the rest of his qualities and viewpoints) become far less easy to swallow, imo.
lol, what? Are you denying the writer/director is racist? If so, please elaborate. If not, then why are you coming after me? You can put all those words in my mouth if you want, but if you reread my post I'm very obviously talking about Vavra himself. After all we haven't heard anything from the studio at large about this whole thing, every response has been from him.
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From your bottom line:
The implication is very clear. You claim the game might have underlying racist agenda and therefore the historians are either paid off or racist themselves, apparently.
I don't think the game has a racist agenda, but the guy who WROTE the game is racist. This fact had to play into the process of consulting historians. I'm not saying, and never said, that the historians in question are being paid off or are racist and you know that. You can keep obfuscating my completely civil discussion by putting words in my mouth if you want, but I don't see how that gets us anywhere.
This policy has been posted in a multitude of threads about the game at this point, and this thread not having it posted in the OP is at this point no excuse for breaking it. However, you are right that it should be in the OP, so I've added it now.
Yes trade happened all over and there were undoubtedly some trade routes going through the Kingdom of Bohemia. But first - to say the actual Silk Road went through Prague is absolutely shocking, even more so from someone Eurogamer introduces as a historian.
And second - let's not forget how the controversy about the game blew up. Four years ago, during their Kickstarter in 2014, someone called MedievalPOC on Tumblr replied to an admittedly bumbling Warhorse tweet that:
"There were no ethnicities in Bohemia or more precisely they were very very rare, that's why there are none in our game"
with this:
- "There was diversity in Bohemia. Keep in mind however that many of these distinctions do not reflect "race" as we think of it or have it now, but denote religious and/or ethnic affiliations. Which is not the same as race. It does however, show just how diverse and well-traveled the general population was at that time, and how much immigration to the area there was: from Italy, Greece, Germany, Turkey, and Central/South Asia."
This message got completely garbled and soon people started thinking Warhorse refused to include BLACK people in KCD therefore the game is racist. It was never about black people. People were just wondering where are the Germans, southern Europeans or the Turkic ethnicities in the game. Only later it turned out one of the main protagonists are actually Germans and Turkic people called the Cumans.
This is how this whole sordid, unfortunate affair started and it should've ended shortly after. If Warhorse is guilty of anything it's that dumb tweet about no ethnicities existing in Bohemia. First, it's not true and second, it's irrelevant because the game is not taking place in the entire Bohemia but in an obscure rural 16 square km large area. Apart from that they did a good job when it comes to ethnic diversity.
Treatment of women, well, that's a bit different question that's being overshadowed by this whole debate about ethnic diversity which is unfortunate.
Yep, I'm about as left wing as you can get and I was a day one backer of this game (Jan 2014) before all the controversy hit and way before GG and kept my pledge since it was already charged to years ago and this game has been something I've wanted for a very long time. Only Witcher 3 scratched that itch this gen.
Game is great, a general shame about the views of the director but I have made a choice to keep my kickstarter pledge I made in 2014 and just enjoy this game as it is my favorite type of Genre and nails it. Judge me as you will.Sometimes you just gotta pick your battles and I personally don't feel this battle was worth denying me playing the game.
It is an incredible take on the 1400's and I do hope it's success spawns more games like this. The Lack of hand holding and realistic setting is pretty much once in a life time gaming and something I've always wanted. So far I'm about 25 hrs in and have not had any major bugs playing on the X1X and now just kind of stretching out my play so it gets patched before I run into any major quest bugs.
I don't think reviewers today have any clue how to handle games like this. This game harkens back to TES: Arena, TES: Daggerfall, Betrayal at Krondor, The Might and Magic Series etc.
It is a great return to form for old school RPG's and I hope it's sales bring out more games like this.
Honestly, if I was a developer I would never ever post anything on Twitter that carried the slightest political connotation. I would just focus on my game and that's it.
It's amazing how they still dont get how social media works today, specially when you're famous amongst the community.
Keep your ideas to yourself and it won't affect your business.
It's amazing how they still dont get how social media works today, specially when you're famous amongst the community.
Keep your ideas to yourself and it won't affect your business.
Developers get attacked for that to. People want opinions out of public figures and call them cowards if they don't say what they think. Do you remember when Marcus Beer insulted Phil Fish and Jonathan Blow for refusing to comment on a Microsoft issue?
I mean I personally think its important to see art seperate from its creators. Plenty of famous artists were/are fucked up in the head ( Caravaggio, Michael Jackson, Woody Allen ). As people I think they were fucked up and had thoughts and morals not compatible with my own.
But I really enjoy their works. I have respect for them as artists, not as people per se.
Now I am NOT trying or even want to defend racism, that is just my personal standpoint.
A whole team of people worked on this game and Im not going to put it down because this Vavra guy is a racist asshole.
And I think this is one damn fine game. A very immersive world that has already kept me very engaged for 35+ hours. I am loving walking around in the world and the missions and different ways to complete them really scratch that itch that a game like New Vegas gave me.
But I really enjoy their works. I have respect for them as artists, not as people per se.
Now I am NOT trying or even want to defend racism, that is just my personal standpoint.
A whole team of people worked on this game and Im not going to put it down because this Vavra guy is a racist asshole.
And I think this is one damn fine game. A very immersive world that has already kept me very engaged for 35+ hours. I am loving walking around in the world and the missions and different ways to complete them really scratch that itch that a game like New Vegas gave me.
I'm having a blast with the game so far. Its such a well realised world for a small developer to have created. Its gotten good reviews from Ganespot, PC Gamer and other reputable sites so hopefully the bad reviews don't put too many people off. That Eurogamer "review" is a complete and utter shitshow though.
The outrage of this type is short lived though. If you refuse to interact with thpse people they will quickly move on, because they can sustain themselves if they are ignored
I overall agree with you, but to be completely honest, I actually do think they would be able to write a decent black character if they had to.
The reason for that is because of the way the game handles the refugees, at least as far as I got into it. From what I know (from Era, didn't go around digging too much), the dude is also against the current influx of refugees in Europe, so when someone said that the game has NPCs talking about "damn refugees disturbing the peace", it really made me worry.
But, playing the game itself, I was surprised to find out that things are not quite what they seemed. They had the perfect opportunity to do commentary on the current refugee crisis using a historical setting as a mirror, but the game actually very clearly paints them as victims and sides with them. The NPC dialogue bashing them is indeed there, and not only one, almost all of the townsfolk you can talk to and ask what they think of the refugees will have a negative view, and at most will say "I know they went through a lot, but...", but what the person who brought that to my attention didn't know (they were only watching a stream while that happened) was that YOU are the refugee. Your friends and relatives are the refugees. They are absolutely painted as victims of a war they had nothing to do with.
You see firsthand them losing their houses, families, workplaces, and being forced to take refuge in another town, and become beggars at that. It's even telling in the mechanics: These townsfolk who discriminate against them have their names as "Townsfolk" over the interact prompt, while each beggar that would in any other game just be "NPC_Beggar" at most, here they have a name, because they're the people Henry knew and grew up with, they're your friends, victims of the horrors of war, living in a terrible situation. Even Kunesh, who already had nothing at the beginning of the game in Skalitz (which was by the way a really cool piece of environmental storytelling, in my opinion), ended up in an even worse situation as a refugee.
This is already a pretty major aspect where the game's message was without a doubt not a mirror to the creator's own beliefs, which seriously surprised me.
That being said, I do think for this particular game, with the examples people defending the inclusion of diversity can give being terrible, it wouldn't really work out that well. But if they decide to have a black protagonist for their next project for whatever reason, I don't think it'll necessarily be terrible, despite of Vavra's own racist beliefs.
It's also possible that if the game was actually about the current day refugees the message would be quite different, though, and in that case you'd be completely right.
Instead of the playing and trying to enjoy the game(the best that it can be in its current state), we have people posting maps, discussing racism, where people in certain parts of the world stand on different topics, and the like. I don't understand this behavior. It's video games. Something as trivial as video games sparks these discussions. A good game is a good game. A development team and its individual members beliefs aren't really my business. I wouldn't miss what many are telling me is a great game(Kingdom Come or otherwise)even if I found out those beliefs to be true. Their beliefs aren't my beliefs. We have a good understanding. I give game developers money. They, in return, hopefully give me a great game to play. I couldn't care less about much beyond that.
Kingdom Come: Deliverance has now sold over a million copies in a week....
https://www.dsogaming.com/news/king...old-one-million-copies-45-coming-from-the-pc/
https://www.dsogaming.com/news/king...old-one-million-copies-45-coming-from-the-pc/
This is exactly what has me scratching my head.
It is SO EASY to not tweet racist/misogynistic stuff on twitter.
Yet, he not only does it, but proudly gloats about it.
People throw that around because he lifts his ideology wholesale from people that exactly fill that description. People are using it because of the shit he says and the people he follows, likes and retweets. Has jackshit to do with there being no black people in the game. If the issue was the game not having black people we wouldn't have even 1/100th of the discussions right now.
Yeah, its a complete lack of business sense and PR.
If you are a scumbag, just try and dont announce it on social media, for your own damn good.
So, to be hyperbolic for a moment, if this studio was literally waving Nazi flags around and goosestepping like motherfuckers, it wouldn't matter to you if the game is good?
The pr has worked in his favor as the game got free publicity. Plus with the ever growing sales, its smooth saoling for the devs in the future.
This is directly from the devs "Black people or distant Asians (India, China, Japan) will not appear. There might have been individuals in the capital city of Prague but our game doesn't take place there." https://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/t/foreigners-in-kingdome-come/5604/18
This can be read either way depending on where one was already leaning.
Glad the game is good. Will pick it up in a few years after bugs are fixed (as I wait and hope the director doesn't do anything stupid again)
This can be read either way depending on where one was already leaning.
Glad the game is good. Will pick it up in a few years after bugs are fixed (as I wait and hope the director doesn't do anything stupid again)
No one can prove there was absolutely no PoC in 1400 Bohemia. But you also can't prove there must be a PoC in an area of a certain size in that region. In real world absolute statements are rarely true, that's why we have probability. I'd say the probability of PoC living in that region is quite low, but not zero.
About historical accuracy, if they make the game with no PoC, I'd say it's historically accurate. I think it's most likely the case in history. But what if they add a few PoC into the game? Will it all of a sudden make the game inaccurate? I don't think so either. PoC is an optional inclusion in this case. The game is historical accurate with or without them, and I don't think the game should be bashed (or praised) for not including PoC.
It's unfortunate that the focus of the reviewers are on whether PoC are in this game. I'd say if the director just kept his mouth shut, people wouldn't have been so keen on it, which, in return, shows how unreliable the whole review system is. I don't want reviews to be affected by what the directer says, I want them to be 100% about the game. I want the games to be reviewed in a vacuum because I play these games in a vacuum. I rarely even know the people behind the games, nor do I care. Hell in terms of western games I usually don't even know in which country they are developed. I just beat Spec Ops: The Line and it blew my mind when I found out the game was developed in Germany.
About historical accuracy, if they make the game with no PoC, I'd say it's historically accurate. I think it's most likely the case in history. But what if they add a few PoC into the game? Will it all of a sudden make the game inaccurate? I don't think so either. PoC is an optional inclusion in this case. The game is historical accurate with or without them, and I don't think the game should be bashed (or praised) for not including PoC.
It's unfortunate that the focus of the reviewers are on whether PoC are in this game. I'd say if the director just kept his mouth shut, people wouldn't have been so keen on it, which, in return, shows how unreliable the whole review system is. I don't want reviews to be affected by what the directer says, I want them to be 100% about the game. I want the games to be reviewed in a vacuum because I play these games in a vacuum. I rarely even know the people behind the games, nor do I care. Hell in terms of western games I usually don't even know in which country they are developed. I just beat Spec Ops: The Line and it blew my mind when I found out the game was developed in Germany.
I still watch and enjoy Polanski's films with full awareness of the atrocity he did. I'm still a fan of Richard Wagner's music knowing his anti-semitic political stance and the fact that he's Hitler's favorite composer. Take it whatever you like.
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I have thoughts concerning the game but at the pace every single KC:D thread moves due to the one particular person who worked on the game it gets tiring just trying to discuss the game. I really don't understand the amount of effort people are willing to put in to derail these threads consistently. There has to be a more fruitful way to express your anger or frustration towards one person's actions than constantly derailing every thread that pops up where people simply want to discuss the game. This isn't sympathizing with racists, but going on about it on a videogame forum especially in a thread not dedicated to that particular subject will do nothing to better the situation for either yourself or any of those who may be affected by this developers thoughts and beliefs.
Also constantly throwing around Nazi to get your point across is incredibly short sighted and again does nothing to push the conversation forward and instead just makes me believe those who do such things are not well educated or can only express themselves in the manner of a hot- take.
PS-I died 5 times during the opening act when you get access to a horse cause I didn't realize you could double tap to gallop faster. That was a special moment.
Also constantly throwing around Nazi to get your point across is incredibly short sighted and again does nothing to push the conversation forward and instead just makes me believe those who do such things are not well educated or can only express themselves in the manner of a hot- take.
PS-I died 5 times during the opening act when you get access to a horse cause I didn't realize you could double tap to gallop faster. That was a special moment.
Um.
Dave Chappele could be an open racist and I'd still watch his stand-up. Chris Benoit murdered his wife and child and I still watch his matches. Likewise, Todd Howard could be antisemitic and I'd still buy the next Fallout if it were any good.
Just my viewpoint and opinion. I refuse to boycott good wholesome entertainment.
People get mad for a week online and then move on. It may not be right but it's how people have behaved for a very long time and I am no exception and don't pretend to be.
ZP: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vid...-punctuation-Reviews-Kingdom-Come-Deliverance
Yahtzee basically just took back coining the "PC Master Race" term with this review.
Yahtzee basically just took back coining the "PC Master Race" term with this review.
Lmao, that was one of his funnier reviews.
The game has its problems, and I agree with a lot he says but I still love it.