"Portal Fantasy" has been in use for as long as I can remember.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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"Portal Fantasy" has been in use for as long as I can remember.
I'm framing it as something inherent with a hint of neutrality. Just enjoying things for whatever reason isn't a crime nor should it be deserving of such ire. Frustration over people lashing out when some semblance of inclusivity enters their space, that I get. But aggressively looking down on someone for enjoying things that pander to them, well I just don't see that as an acceptable response. Not everyone cares to "rise above" their preferred media for whatever reason. Some will do so for completely malicious reasons. Some because they don't know any better. Some because they just don't take entertainment that seriously. I'd say the latter is the majority. Being progressive in entertainment just isn't a priority for most people (places like Era are an anomaly) regardless of medium and I feel it's arrogant to consider oneself better than them because of it.
No, it's venting, and trust me when I say that they're not the only one who wants to say things like that but doesn't on account of being too careful to try.
It's hard not to think about how little pride one must have in oneself to effectively denigrate one's mindset to the point of being intellectually bankrupt. All those men with incessantly libido-ruled mentalities on TV should not be considered role models, and yet somehow we're seeing that sort of behavior ad nauseum on this very forum. We should be aiming to be above bonobos, not emulating them. Humanity would have gotten nowhere if people only ever thought with their damn genitals.
Seriously, there are a bunch of folks who will actually push back against any sort of critical analysis of the things they consume because they're unwilling to consider anything critically, except for the things that effect them personally. I have to say, if it's not fair to criticize people for that sort of anti-intellectual behavior, what is fair game for criticism? Especially when it drowns out anything resembling actual discourse in favor of empty proclamations of how aroused one was by a design that clearly didn't aim for much higher than base titillation. It's not a good look. There's no excusing it. When you have guys liberally consuming trash without ever even accepting the idea that what they're consuming is trash... where do you go from there? We can't ignore it. Reality isn't that kind. Sweeping it under the rug helps no one. So we push back against it. It's really that simple.
When people stop acting like bloody consumer zombies and start actually engaging with the content of our posts, there will be no hyperbolic ranting to be had from this corner of the internet. That day is not forthcoming, however.
I relate to this too with angry thoughts of "how much of a neuter do you have to be to want depictions of the female body this distorted to be attractive to you? These costumes and proportions are the equivalent of flaming neon signs pointing out the obvious as if to a particularly dull audience of children." It's the sort of thing I'd consider utterly insulting even if I was the target audience. But apparently not and I try to just avoid saying anything at all, but yeah, that's what's in my head. I don't want to insult anyone, but it's hard to just sit there while feeling like I'm being actively insulted and it goes back to my statement about respect for women and the lack thereof as reflected in female character designs.
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I think it's okay to like "trash" from time to time (well, depends on what kind of trash, some trash are questionable), but if there is something that irritates me, it's when people focus too much on female body parts when a new game or a new character is revealed. I remember when people couldn't stop talking about Twintelle or 2B's ass when they were revealed, posting funny memes about "dem thick ass" or ass fanarts, etc, or when some people talk about BotW Zelda's ass too (and this one makes me feel a bit uncomfortable because it's goddamn Zelda, one of the least sexualized female characters in video games, and seeing people talking about how her ass looks good, I'm like "wtf?").
And every time people do that, I don't know, it irritates me. It's fine to discuss about how a character looks good, and I suppose they want to talk about how much they love it, want to share it with the others, there is nothing wrong with that, we all do that. But the discussions about "omg dat ass&boobs" are too... widespread? And it's annoying.
I don't know, for example, imagine a thread about a new Devil May Cry game and Dante looks goddamn super sexy and all. Some people (mostly dudes) talk about how the gameplay and graphics look good, then suddenly you have other people (mostly women) who invade the thread to talk about Dante's abs and pecs, and post manly abs&pecs memes or stuff like that, wouldn't it feel frustrating and tiring for people who just want to talk about the game and are not interested in Dante's sexiness?
I mean, on the one hand, it's fine to have discussions about what we like, it's a forum after all, but on the other hand, as I said, I can't help feeling irritated. Ignoring it is an option, sure, but when it's too prominent in a thread? Yeah, annoying and a bit alienating (is that the right word?) too. To me, it feels a bit like "oh ok, let the boys talk about boobs".
Don't know if you get what I mean with my gibberish, but I just wanted to try to explain how tiring this is, lol.
And every time people do that, I don't know, it irritates me. It's fine to discuss about how a character looks good, and I suppose they want to talk about how much they love it, want to share it with the others, there is nothing wrong with that, we all do that. But the discussions about "omg dat ass&boobs" are too... widespread? And it's annoying.
I don't know, for example, imagine a thread about a new Devil May Cry game and Dante looks goddamn super sexy and all. Some people (mostly dudes) talk about how the gameplay and graphics look good, then suddenly you have other people (mostly women) who invade the thread to talk about Dante's abs and pecs, and post manly abs&pecs memes or stuff like that, wouldn't it feel frustrating and tiring for people who just want to talk about the game and are not interested in Dante's sexiness?
I mean, on the one hand, it's fine to have discussions about what we like, it's a forum after all, but on the other hand, as I said, I can't help feeling irritated. Ignoring it is an option, sure, but when it's too prominent in a thread? Yeah, annoying and a bit alienating (is that the right word?) too. To me, it feels a bit like "oh ok, let the boys talk about boobs".
Don't know if you get what I mean with my gibberish, but I just wanted to try to explain how tiring this is, lol.
Right? It's not just about dudes enjoying pretty ladies. It's just that it's the most shameless and ridiculous and juvenile example of T&A, and the ubiquity of the "omg ~drool~" comments that just make me roll my eyes.
Don't even need to wonder. One time on GAF I innocuously mentioned that some celeb dude (this was in a thread about physical appearance, mind) was hot and it annoyed some male posters. And I wasn't being ultra-objectifying (the dude in question wasn't sexualized either). Just one girl going "daaaaamn" and it was enough to irk some people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (And of course the reactions to that Mevius guy that made everyone so uncomfortable the design got censored.... lol)
Yeah, I do. You're describing a behaviour that is, on the surface, innocuous and appears harmless, but in accumulation gets obnoxious and creates and unwelcoming atmosphere that celebrates objectification. So many women staying out of these threads simply because they are fed up with that. I can't blame them.
I wouldn't find that tiring nor frustrating and it's really bizarre to me that anyone would. Men like that need to realize they're being massive hypocrites if they want to gatekeep people talking about Dante's fantastic glistening abs while doing the same thing for attractive female characters.
Wow, really, and in a thread about physical appearance? Must be some dudes who wanted to be cute pretending to feel offended like "I feel so objectified!! and you women pretend you're the only ones feeling like this!? you are as disgusting as men!!", maybe. Or dudes thinking "ugh those fangirls fangirling, they're so annoying".
Yes, exactly, you describe it better than I did, haha.
Man 1: "That new Nier protagonist, 2B, is very cute!"
Woman: "Oh yeah, she's pretty, I like her dress a lot. It's stylish!"
Man 2: "BUT YO DUDE DID YOU SEE DAT ASS THO???"
Woman: "Uuh..."
Man 1: "YEAH DUDE I SAW IT YO"
Man 2: "GOD BLESS YOKO TARO HE KNOWS WHAT'S UP YO"
Men 1 and 2: " T H I C C YOOOOO"
Woman:
(Maybe a bit exaggerated but not so far from the reality lol)
I feel you. It's just exasperating.
Somehow, whenever these characters come up, the entire discussion just becomes about their bodies.
And every time, I just want to scream:
Yes, exactly, you describe it better than I did, haha.
Man 1: "That new Nier protagonist, 2B, is very cute!"
Woman: "Oh yeah, she's pretty, I like her dress a lot. It's stylish!"
Man 2: "BUT YO DUDE DID YOU SEE DAT ASS THO???"
Woman: "Uuh..."
Man 1: "YEAH DUDE I SAW IT YO"
Man 2: "GOD BLESS YOKO TARO HE KNOWS WHAT'S UP YO"
Men 1 and 2: " T H I C C YOOOOO"
Woman:
(Maybe a bit exaggerated but not so far from the reality lol)
Don't forget "BECOME ASS GODS"...
Hah, it's 2018, and some people still don't get it. It's not that hard though.
Oh I get you, but there are men who are annoyed or mock women because they "fangirl" over a character or a real person. Morrigan gave an example.
It's okay to enjoy sexy characters and celebrities, but people just don't have to be obnoxious about it (now the question would be "when does it become obnoxious exactly", I suppose it depends on how much people are tolerant about it).
Oh no. It's something that exists... ?
(I admit, I chuckled a bit)
The thing that's been bugging me is seeing people heap praise on directors for admitting publicly that they just put in sexualized characters to satisfy their own tastes. I mean, yeah that's more honest than Hideo Kojima but that's a pretty freaking low bar to aspire to.
"You females should feel privileged we even let you hang out with us."
...is what I often hear in my head.
...is what I often hear in my head.
Men look and treat at women like pieces of meat. Have crafted rules, laws, governments, societies, hunts, etc around this fact. So when a woman is passively reminded of this reality (and history) in her escapism, what you think she's going to feel next?
And no, women aren't trying to believe they're better than men and even if one does, the self-righteousness that stems from the dealings of an eons-worth of rapes, assassinations, plundering, slavery, beatings, mockings, etc just for having a vagina would be well understood. The Patriarch fuels this. You seem to keep believing that there isn't an correlation to the topic of this thread despite the probability of it being so is high whenever it crops up. Like racism, unfortunately, it's not always clear cut as, funny enough, fiction makes it out to be.
We're talking about a specific subset of men who display behavior that is inarguably juvenile. This is some serious "not all men" shit you're pushing here.
I guess it's died down now, but I saw it quite often months ago.
I would say that it kinda reflects this "boys' club" feeling. When devs or artists publicly admit their love for T&A, they praise them for being honest and for catering to their tastes so "shamelessly", I suppose.
It also feels a bit like a group of men enjoying some porn pictures and commenting on how girls are hot, but instead of being in a corner and doing that privately, they do it on a public forum where there are also women and men that aren't interested in it but can see the conversation and feel repulsed by it.
I mean, I like looking at hot men myself and talking about them to some friends who enjoy them too, alright. But that's it. I don't try to shove how much I love hot men in people's face.
"Why do people always look down on us?" they cry, before having a public bukkake session all over the latest issue of T&A.
User warned: drive-by, dismissive post. Attack the substance of a user's post, not their chosen avatar.
Anime avatar
I can confirm it is in fact an avatar with an anime style, good work
I've already been interacting here for a while, and when I read esserius post it honestly felt more like venting than anything else. It doesn't change that those are her views, of course, but the way they're expressed is the consequence of a pissed off person wanting to vent her frustration in a place where they feel comfortable.
I didn't answer, back then, and I may not hold an opinion as drastic as hers. I think there are times when you want to be rebated, and others when you must just accept what's coming. I'd say that post was an example of the later. I think, that in this day and age, being the 21st century, people should hold themselves to a better standard. I'm not saying that you can't enjoy crap, I enjoy all kinds of crap from time to time too, but you won't see me defending those things. Critical thinking and empathy are two things that people should be able to take for granted in a modern and democratic society, but reality has shown people time and time again that those two are still a rare sight.
I certainly won't look down on anyone for, I don't know, liking Ivy design. But I'd expect people to realize to town down that conversation in the same moment a person expresses their discomfort. Because it hurts nobody to do so. Nier Automata is a game with appealing designs, good gameplay and one of the best narratives I've enjoyed in a game so far. It's been garnering a lot of attention, and that attention would obviously include woman. I don't expect people to never point at 2Bs ass and say it look good or whatever. But people should be mature enough to change the conversation in the same moment a person feels uncomfortable about it instead of getting defensive over it.
And I would certainly look down on people that show certain behaviors, not because the like tits and ass, but because, again, things like empathy and being able to apply some critical thinking to the media you enjoy (if not while, after you've enjoyed it) is something that everyone should strive for because it helps create a healthier society for everyone including ourselves.
I see no problem in someone going to Pizza Hut one night and devouring enough food to last the whole winter. But hell, realize that you're eating fast food. Don't say "nah, man, see how my pizza had basically cheese, veggies, bread and tomate sauce? That's totally healthy! I'm rocking a Meditarrenean diet by dropping here 3 times a week!". Enjoying fast food every once in a while it's ok. But if someone told me the later I won't be able to keep a straight face. I don't know if the analogy serves its purpose well enough, I'm open to suggestions :P
I didn't answer, back then, and I may not hold an opinion as drastic as hers. I think there are times when you want to be rebated, and others when you must just accept what's coming. I'd say that post was an example of the later. I think, that in this day and age, being the 21st century, people should hold themselves to a better standard. I'm not saying that you can't enjoy crap, I enjoy all kinds of crap from time to time too, but you won't see me defending those things. Critical thinking and empathy are two things that people should be able to take for granted in a modern and democratic society, but reality has shown people time and time again that those two are still a rare sight.
I certainly won't look down on anyone for, I don't know, liking Ivy design. But I'd expect people to realize to town down that conversation in the same moment a person expresses their discomfort. Because it hurts nobody to do so. Nier Automata is a game with appealing designs, good gameplay and one of the best narratives I've enjoyed in a game so far. It's been garnering a lot of attention, and that attention would obviously include woman. I don't expect people to never point at 2Bs ass and say it look good or whatever. But people should be mature enough to change the conversation in the same moment a person feels uncomfortable about it instead of getting defensive over it.
And I would certainly look down on people that show certain behaviors, not because the like tits and ass, but because, again, things like empathy and being able to apply some critical thinking to the media you enjoy (if not while, after you've enjoyed it) is something that everyone should strive for because it helps create a healthier society for everyone including ourselves.
I see no problem in someone going to Pizza Hut one night and devouring enough food to last the whole winter. But hell, realize that you're eating fast food. Don't say "nah, man, see how my pizza had basically cheese, veggies, bread and tomate sauce? That's totally healthy! I'm rocking a Meditarrenean diet by dropping here 3 times a week!". Enjoying fast food every once in a while it's ok. But if someone told me the later I won't be able to keep a straight face. I don't know if the analogy serves its purpose well enough, I'm open to suggestions :P
Isn't this frowned upon over there? Avatar shaming i mean
The "have you ever been attracted to a video game character?" thread was basically this. I think there's potentially an interesting discussion about what designs illicit such an extreme appeal for people and why that's the case. But instead it just turned into the whole "so and so awakened something in teenage me, those thicc thighs tho" rather than any sort of mature discussion.
Like it's just funny, someone rants about how a good number of men just in take cheesecake by the dozens with zero thought why and we have dudes basically all but call that person as misandrist.
Like if the ranter truly hated men, he/she wouldn't expect men to know better than to take in so much cheesecake.
Like if the ranter truly hated men, he/she wouldn't expect men to know better than to take in so much cheesecake.
How am I "eating shit?" If you don't mind me asking?
I like to think perfectly aware of what I'm doing so if you could enlighten me of how I've aparently been brainwashed that'd be great.
I will agree that the "OMG SO HAWT" talks could warrant toning down though. There are other places for that. I recommend deviantart personally.
I like to think perfectly aware of what I'm doing so if you could enlighten me of how I've aparently been brainwashed that'd be great.
I will agree that the "OMG SO HAWT" talks could warrant toning down though. There are other places for that. I recommend deviantart personally.
But hey, isn't it always fun when Evangelion discussion just devolves into fights over whether Asuka or Rei is the better waifu? Or Persona, for that matter?
my dudes you have been doing this for over twenty goddamn years, it's time to stop fighting over fourteen year old girls
BTW, kind of tangential, but I've never understood why people are so offended when someone says that there are good and bad videogames/books/movies etc. I mean, is it really that hard to admit that you might be enjoying something that, objectively, is not good? I think that this sort of relativism is used too many times to shut down someone's argument.
Yeah if you can drop the #NotAllMen complex, that'll be great.
When the series itself calls them out on this in the most...visceral way possible, and they still don't get it, you know it's a lost cause.
This is a difficult argument to make. First you have to have enough perspective to admit to something's flaws which is gonna be difficult for certain people.
Then you have the issue of how we define "bad." There are plenty of shows I read for instance where I genuinly enjoy elements of it but acknowledge that there are parts people wouldn't like. The problem being is I still wouldn't want to call them bad because to me that says it has no merits.
There are shows I love but I sure as shit wouldn't recommend to anyone here in this thread.
Third you have the usual pushback whenever someone says something bad about something you like. Because you enjoy it then it can come across as a personal slight in your own character to some people.
So while admitting something you like has issues would help it definitely can be difficult for some people.
Well, to be quite honest, while the series call them out on it, the marketing actually encourages it. Evangelion is a painful example of a series that survives despite of its marketing machine.
I worked in a comic/manga store when Evangelion came out here in Spain. The original marketing campaign was so different.
It's exactly like Pokémon or Animal Crossing, wich were never about the waifus
Until they suddendly were
People don't like to think that they may have a bad taste. That's how some cult statuses are reached.
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Sorry, sorry.
I don't like being insulted so I got angry. I apologize for the immature response.
I understand what there getting at and I shouldn't have taken it so personally.
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Furries have always been a thing and Isabelle is extremely cute. I'd advise against any further looks for your own sanity.
On Pokémon's case I'd argue the waifus had already been there for a while. It's just that they weren't human yet.
Well, Isabelle is basically a waifu by cuteness, but you don't want to go down the rabbit hole, believe me.
By Pocket Camp Nintendo realized that Isabelle was the face of Animal Crossing. They tried with Lottie in Happy Home Designer, but no dice
Well, at least on the intentional side i desagree (The even kept the male Gardevoirs after Gallade) but that's something for another thread.
I might be misremembering (it's been a long time!) but I'm sure I read that Anno himself was frustrated with the way the marketing department treated Asuka/Rei, which led to the whole Shinji wank scene in EoE.
Who decides what is good or bad though? The market? Reviewers that could be possibly mixed in opinion?
And yet Asuka's new see-through plugsuit still made it in to 2.0.
Seriously WTF was that?
Well, Isabelle is basically a waifu by cuteness, but you don't want to go down the rabbit hole, believe me.
By Pocket Camp Nintendo realized that Isabelle was the face of Animal Crossing. They tried with Lottie in Happy Home Designer, but no dice
The internet is a scary place, I didnt realize they went after animal crossing tooFurries have always been a thing and Isabelle is extremely cute. I'd advise against any further looks for your own sanity.
On Pokémon's case I'd argue the waifus had already been there for a while. It's just that they weren't human yet.
Squaring Evangelion the series and all of the merch over the years has always been an interesting endeavor. I can't say I blame them for the hustle, but all of those various pvc figures of Asuka and Rei always felt exceptionally weird. Especially the more out there (read: lewd) ones.
then you get to Rebuild 2.0, and it's like... Oh, and then you get to 3.0 and get a bit squicked out by how brazen they were with the 'Curse of Eva' thing. Evangelion's basically embraced it now.
(I actually kind of liked Mari, before they dropped all of the subplot they were building up for her like a sack of potatoes.)
To be fair, Game Freak is incredibly hesitant to change anything about their mons. Remember that Nidorina and Nidoqueen still can't breed.
I recall someone posting a cropped O-face from an Isabelle doujin on the old forum.
Hey, hey, let's treat this carefully.
They may fall from their high horses and the miss the pile of BS at the bottom, and break their necks.
Oh god the Curse of EVA I actually forgot that shit.
For those who don't follow Evangelion it's revealed that apparently exposure to the stuff inside Evangelions prevents you from aging. So after a time skip we have a 28 year old Asuka who still looks like a teenager.
Yep Eva pulled the thousand year old dragon.
Even as someone with a tolerance for this stuff I though that was the biggest load of shit I'd ever heard. Like it legit made me angry when I first read spoilers about it.
Sorry for the rant but I HATE that plot point.
For those who don't follow Evangelion it's revealed that apparently exposure to the stuff inside Evangelions prevents you from aging. So after a time skip we have a 28 year old Asuka who still looks like a teenager.
Yep Eva pulled the thousand year old dragon.
Even as someone with a tolerance for this stuff I though that was the biggest load of shit I'd ever heard. Like it legit made me angry when I first read spoilers about it.
Sorry for the rant but I HATE that plot point.
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