Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

[Patapuf]

Bayonetta put some characterisation and context behind the sexualisation. One of the main themes of the game being a witch vs the old church helps too.

Even if one doesn't like it or still thinks it's dumb the difference in execution vs your average "sexy" character is obvious.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

They're not teleported to another world as it's virtual, so there's no interaction with otherworldly characters and any NPC interaction is minimal. Stuff like Log Horizon and Death March applies because there's a mystery for the teleportation and high interaction with NPCs. SAO is structured much differently than pretty much the entire genre, so it really shouldn't be used as the premiere example of it. The problem is it's such a bland genre that pretty much nothing would work as the premiere example of it and the best ones are actively making fun of it like Konosuba or "reversing" it like Hatarku Maou.

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To be fair, the term Isekai can apply to every series where the main plot is a character being teleported/reincarnated in another world so Digimon, Isekai Shokudou, Re Creators (a reverse isekai if you think about that with fictional characters coming to the real world), Inuyasha, Shurato, Rayearth would be Isekai, not just what generally people think it is a Isekai. Before the term got popular in the west, isekai was already used in Japan for such situations too.

 

[Dary]

Somewhere, Mark Twain is listening to all this talk of "isekai" and shaking his head. CS Lewis is trying to console him.

 

[Twig]

Somewhere, Mark Twain is listening to all this talk of "isekai" and shaking his head. CS Lewis is trying to console him.

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Don't forget The Wizard of Oz! Not quite as old, but.

 

[Dragmire]

I liked playing as Ivy back then and that alt from SC2 is the best. You'll be paying $5 for that if they bring it back for this game.


I love the fact that in the trailer you can see her breath when she is in that cold area. haha

 

[Choppasmith]

Playing Bayonetta again on the Switch, which is an interesting experience. When I first played it some 8 years ago I wasn't anywhere near as aware of female sexualisation issues in games as I am now. It's so over the top and she's such a weird looking woman in a lot of ways, and of course her actively encouraging the 'sexiness' of it all is a big difference, but I can't help but face palm at some of the more gratuitous camera angles. She's a far more difficult case for me to grapple with than the likes of Quiet, Pyra etc.

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I still remember watching the first trailer for Bayonetta and they show the camera pan down across her upward facing crotch and thought, "Oh, it's one of THOSE kind of games. Pass." It's maddening for me, because the game itself looks fun, but I'm just not a fan of the sexualization, even if it's self aware.

As for Ivy, I guess it's not as bad as it was previously? Yeah I don't get why they don't go with that fancy suit outfit. Really seems to suit her better (no pun intended), but then I'm not well versed in SC. At least in KoF (namely XIII's dialog) the majority of characters' dialog against Mai is pretty much, "Come on Mai, that outfit, seriously?"

 

[esserius]

I need to vent, so I'm going to vent.

I really, genuinely hate a lot of the discussion every time characters like Ivy become part of the discussion. My only reaction to all these manchildren going, "hur hur boobs" is just, "what are you, 12?" Like, I have a hard time respecting people who can't even respect themselves enough to not act like animals. God it's infuriating. This industry, and the people who support it, are infuriating. And what's worse is that it happens every fucking time. Every fucking time. It's like all chance of empathy or care for other people is just thrown out the window. Because lord fucking knows we couldn't possibly get by without more porn in the infinite pile that exists fucking everywhere.

Christ.

At this point, my reaction is just:

 

[Xaszatm]

I need to vent, so I'm going to vent.

I really, genuinely hate a lot of the discussion every time characters like Ivy become part of the discussion. My only reaction to all these manchildren going, "hur hur boobs" is just, "what are you, 12?" Like, I have a hard time respecting people who can't even respect themselves enough to not act like animals. God it's infuriating. This industry, and the people who support it, are infuriating. And what's worse is that it happens every fucking time. Every fucking time. It's like all chance of empathy or care for other people is just thrown out the window. Because lord fucking knows we couldn't possibly get by without more porn in the infinite pile that exists fucking everywhere.

Christ.

At this point, my reaction is just:

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*hugs* I completely get your frustration. What's worse is all the posturing and mule-like stubbornness there is to even admit there is a freaking problem. So we can't even get past step 1. Instead endless caught in a loop of having to explain what the problem is while debating those who refuse to see it or maliciously pretend it's the opposite and men are somehow the ones being repressed by the "womenz".

 

[Jacob LeBeau]

Very understandable, as I don't understand it either. It doesn't effect me, but I can see why it effects others, especially women.

 

[Deleted member 8583]

I understand, just by reading the David Cross thread and the amount of I will keep watching posts-like and the amount of people dismissing the evidence... is not just a gaming thing, but the whole site, like the rules changed but the people are the same as the old site.

 

[esserius]

*hugs* I completely get your frustration. What's worse is all the posturing and mule-like stubbornness there is to even admit there is a freaking problem. So we can't even get past step 1. Instead endless caught in a loop of having to explain what the problem is while debating those who refuse to see it or maliciously pretend it's the opposite and men are somehow the ones being repressed by the "womenz".

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What infuriates me more is just the complete lack of pride. I'm willing to bet that most of them don't even realize they're being looked down on (and if they don't care, well, that speaks volumes about their character, now doesn't it?). Men should, frankly, be insulted at this point that there is so much of this shit. But instead? They eat it up. They are literally eating the shit that is fed to them. I don't know if it's just that they don't know any better, that they're really that childish, or they're just that callous (or all three, I wouldn't be surprised). But god almighty, whatever the reason it is disgusting.

Like, seriously, have a little respect for yourselves, if nothing else.

 

[Redcrayon]

I need to vent, so I'm going to vent.

I really, genuinely hate a lot of the discussion every time characters like Ivy become part of the discussion. My only reaction to all these manchildren going, "hur hur boobs" is just, "what are you, 12?" Like, I have a hard time respecting people who can't even respect themselves enough to not act like animals. God it's infuriating. This industry, and the people who support it, are infuriating. And what's worse is that it happens every fucking time. Every fucking time. It's like all chance of empathy or care for other people is just thrown out the window. Because lord fucking knows we couldn't possibly get by without more porn in the infinite pile that exists fucking everywhere.

Christ.

At this point, my reaction is just:

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Your reaction reminds me of this from the Mash Report

 

[Choppasmith]

What infuriates me more is just the complete lack of pride. I'm willing to bet that most of them don't even realize they're being looked down on (and if they don't care, well, that speaks volumes about their character, now doesn't it?). Men should, frankly, be insulted at this point that there is so much of this shit. But instead? They eat it up. They are literally eating the shit that is fed to them. I don't know if it's just that they don't know any better, that they're really that childish, or they're just that callous (or all three, I wouldn't be surprised). But god almighty, whatever the reason it is disgusting.

Like, seriously, have a little respect for yourselves, if nothing else.

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Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. To me, as a guy, it kinda comes across as having keys dangled in your face. Yeah, there might be others who will actually laugh and smile, but it just seems tasteless, shallow, and irritating to people like me.

That said, that's just me, I know it doesn't compare to how it makes women feel.

 

[lake]

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one repelled by the Ivy talk, or disappointed yet again at how Bamco portrayed her. And it's sad how neither of these things felt surprising.

 

[petran79]

Somewhere, Mark Twain is listening to all this talk of "isekai" and shaking his head. CS Lewis is trying to console him.

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Lewis Carol on the other hand would be in heaven with all those loli visual novels

 

[cosmicblizzard]

What infuriates me more is just the complete lack of pride. I'm willing to bet that most of them don't even realize they're being looked down on (and if they don't care, well, that speaks volumes about their character, now doesn't it?). Men should, frankly, be insulted at this point that there is so much of this shit. But instead? They eat it up. They are literally eating the shit that is fed to them. I don't know if it's just that they don't know any better, that they're really that childish, or they're just that callous (or all three, I wouldn't be surprised). But god almighty, whatever the reason it is disgusting.

Like, seriously, have a little respect for yourselves, if nothing else.

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That kind of erases their agency and makes the whole situation out to be a lot more complicated than it is for a lot of people. For some, it won't be any more complicated than "I like it." The external factors won't matter. The climate surrounding it won't matter. The fact of the matter is a lot of people just don't put that much thought into their entertainment, and some will have limited enough tastes that they're fine with getting similar things over and over without it being a knock against their intelligence. Why would they be upset at an ever-increasing abundance of things that cater to them? I doubt a lot of them even care if some are looking down on them as it seems there's far more people looking down on the opposite side, at least in this medium. Many would just see something like "respect" as a non-sequitur in such a situation and won't see why it would enter the conversation at all.

 

[esserius]

That kind of erases their agency and makes the whole situation out to be a lot more complicated than it is for a lot of people. For some, it won't be any more complicated than "I like it." The external factors won't matter. The climate surrounding it won't matter. The fact of the matter is a lot of people just don't put that much thought into their entertainment, and some will have limited enough tastes that they're fine with getting similar things over and over without it being a knock against their intelligence. Why would they be upset at an ever-increasing abundance of things that cater to them? I doubt a lot of them even care if some are looking down on them as it seems there's far more people looking down on the opposite side, at least in this medium. Many would just see something like "respect" as a non-sequitur in such a situation and won't see why it would enter the conversation at all.

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The agency they're erasing is their own.

There's also a difference between being catered to and eating shit. Being catered to assumes it's something you want, not something that requires "no thought" or "I like it".

And again, not caring speaks to their character and a lack of discernment between when they're actually being catered to and when they're just being fed shit. It's not healthy to just be consuming garbage all the time (and worse, to take some sort of strange pleasure in rolling around in the garbage).

And yes, you're right. I'm fairly certain most of them have very little respect for themselves, which is why it never enters the conversation (because self-reflection actually requires they look at the shit they've been fed).

 

[cosmicblizzard]

The agency they're erasing is their own.

There's also a difference between being catered to and eating shit. Being catered to assumes it's something you want, not something that requires "no thought" or "I like it".

And again, not caring speaks to their character and a lack of discernment between when they're actually being catered to and when they're just being fed shit. It's not healthy to just be consuming garbage all the time.

And yes, you're right. I'm fairly certain most of them have very little respect for themselves, which is why it never enters the conversation (because self-reflection actually requires they look at the shit they've been fed).

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I don't see anything wrong with consuming things that require no thought. People aren't going to suddenly be consuming things they don't like because of critical thought being unnecessary, that's just going to be an additional factor in a "turn your brain off" sort of way. The targeted appeal is still there and sometimes "I like it" is really all the justification one needs. I've definitely felt that way before without fully being able to or caring to vocalize why I enjoy something. I think it's fine to just let them enjoy things, whether they acknowledge the problematic aspects of what they consume or not. It's when they lash out or venture outside that space that things get ugly and it ceases to be a "enjoying things in peace" scenario.

 

[UltraMagnus]

I think saying people are "animals" for liking something because you think it's juvenile is a bit much. Sometimes things are juvenile in entertainment.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I don't think it's lack of agency really, like the audience was there before. They are a core part of the soul calibur fanbase, for better or worse, and a lot of them won't be, or aren't willing, to emphatise on why it's further pushing out what female fanbase there is of the franchise.

Which is pretty rough. I feel like women who want better representations in fighting games are getting further pushed out in general.

 

[Ferrs]

I think saying people are "animals" for liking something because you think it's juvenile is a bit much. Sometimes things are juvenile in entertainment.

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Tbh atleast in this thread, I saw this comment more coming on the opposite side "we are animals we can't help but like sexualized women it's our nature it comes with being a man,etc etc" and shit like that.

 

[esserius]

I don't see anything wrong with consuming things that require no thought. People aren't going to suddenly be consuming things they don't like because of critical thought being unnecessary, that's just going to be an additional factor in a "turn your brain off" sort of way. The targeted appeal is still there and sometimes "I like it" is really all the justification one needs. I've definitely felt that way before without fully being able to or caring to vocalize why I enjoy something. I think it's fine to just let them enjoy things, whether they acknowledge the problematic aspects of what they consume or not. It's when they lash out or venture outside that space that things get ugly and it ceases to be a "enjoying things in peace" scenario.

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And every now and then? Turning your brain off is ok. But all the fucking time? That's not.

People consume shit they don't like all the time. Like, all the time. Because they're forced to. Because there are no alternatives. In this thread alone there are tons of examples of this. It doesn't require a lot of critical thought to acknowledge problems in media. It simply requires eyes, and the tiniest amount of empathy for other people who consume the same media.

And the reality is, in the game industry, this problem extends way beyond representation.

Tbh atleast in this thread, I saw this comment more coming on the opposite side "we are animals we can't help but like sexualized women it's our nature it comes with being a man,etc etc" and shit like that.

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Yeah, the "it's our nature" argument is just so painfully tired. I guess it's not in their nature to think though?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I think saying people are "animals" for liking something because you think it's juvenile is a bit much. Sometimes things are juvenile in entertainment.

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Yeah, I mean I'll fully admit I consume a lot of trash. I also consume stuff that isn't trash and is more "meaningful", even if I don't really venture into the "high art" tier as I find that kind of stuff painfully boring. Sometimes I just don't want to put too much thought into my entertainment even if the stuff that is thought-provoking will stay with me longer.

 

[Antiwhippy]

People consume shit they don't like all the time. Like, all the time. Because they're forced to. Because there are no alternatives. In this thread alone there are tons of examples of this. It doesn't require a lot of critical thought to acknowledge problems in media. It simply requires eyes, and the tiniest amount of empathy for other people who consume the same media.

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I'm struggling with your argument that don't like it. I'm not even saying that it's good that they like it, but there has been a clear fanbase in the soul calibur, and fighting game community in general, for stuff like Ivy's designs.

 

[UltraMagnus]

Yeah, I mean I'll fully admit I consume a lot of trash. I also consume stuff that isn't trash and is more "meaningful", even if I don't really venture into the "high art" tier as I find that kind of stuff painfully boring. Sometimes I just don't want to put too much thought into my entertainment even if the stuff that is thought-provoking will stay with me longer.

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I think it's bordering on a certain type of pretentiousness to lecture people on what kind of media they consume by saying it's not meaningful enough.

I got dragged to see the new 50 Shades movie by my fiance. There's about 7 or 8 grown women sitting behind me who were constantly giggling like school girls when the lead actor's body was shown almost nude.

I mean I wouldn't think "well these women should be ashamed of themselves". Sex and sexuality is a big part of life and sometimes (yes) it's silly and over the top.

There's a lot of silly things out there without much meaning, reality TV ... pop music songs, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I think it's bordering on a certain type of pretentiousness to lecture people on what kind of media they consume by saying it's not meaningful enough.

I got dragged to see the new 50 Shades movie by my fiance. There's about 7 or 8 grown women sitting behind me who were constantly giggling like school girls when the lead actor's body was shown almost nude.

I mean, it's not a big freaking deal. Sex and sexuality is a big part of life and sometimes (yes) it's silly and over the top.

There's a lot of silly things out there without much meaning, reality TV ... pop music songs, etc. etc. etc

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The problem is that women don't get catered in that way nearly as much as men do.

Especially in videogames. Especially in videogames.

 

[esserius]

Yeah, I mean I'll fully admit I consume a lot of trash. I also consume stuff that isn't trash and is more "meaningful", even if I don't really venture into the "high art" tier as I find that kind of stuff painfully boring. Sometimes I just don't want to put too much thought into my entertainment even if the stuff that is thought-provoking will stay with me longer.

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Here's the difference though - most people don't like admitting the fact that they consume a lot of trash. Because for most people, that comes with acknowledgement of liking something they know is bad. It's why so many discussions devolve into fallacious garbage. If they'd just admit, "yeah this is garbage" they'd save themselves and everyone else a lot of headaches. Instead we get bullshit about "canon" and statistics with dumb arguments about why it sold well that don't reinforce any point at all (because there are literally a million reasons why a product can sell well).

I'm struggling with your argument that don't like it. I'm not even saying that it's good that they like it, but there has been a clear fanbase in the soul calibur, and fighting game community in general, for stuff like Ivy's designs.

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I wasn't talking about Ivy's designs in that argument.

 

[UltraMagnus]

The problem is that women don't get catered in that way nearly as much as men do.

Especially in videogames. Especially in videogames.

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Sure that's a valid point, but gaming doesn't have the same exact history as the film or television or music business does.

Gaming was gendered as a "boys toy" for much of the 80s/90s, that is changing now but it will take some time for more content that specifically caters to female sensibilities to become more commonplace, but the industry is definitely moving in that direction currently. It's not going to apply to every game though and nor should it IMO, some games are just going to be unadulterated silly in certain ways.

But I think saying things like "you're a bad person for liking Ivy in Soul Calibur" is about as valid as me lecturing those women in the 50 Shades theater that they should "grow up and not giggle/swoon over an actor's body". Just for the record too, I don't give much of a fart about Ivy in Soul Calibur.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

It doesn't require a lot of critical thought to acknowledge problems in media. It simply requires eyes, and the tiniest amount of empathy for other people who consume the same media.

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I mean we're kind of getting into the super subjective nature of variable priorities here. Most people don't think too much about the media they consume because it just isn't a big part of their life. Single pieces of media exist in a vacuum to them and whatever has entered the social zeitgeist will get their attention. Those of us on a forum are different because the medium is a big enough part of our lives to make us enthusiasts. Enthusiasts are the minority in pretty much every hobby. The social aspect just isn't there for a not insignificant amount of people.

I think it's bordering on a certain type of pretentiousness to lecture people on what kind of media they consume by saying it's not meaningful enough.

I got dragged to see the new 50 Shades movie by my fiance. There's about 7 or 8 grown women sitting behind me who were constantly giggling like school girls when the lead actor's body was shown almost nude.

I mean I wouldn't think "well these women should be ashamed of themselves". Sex and sexuality is a big part of life and sometimes (yes) it's silly and over the top.

There's a lot of silly things out there without much meaning, reality TV ... pop music songs, etc. etc. etc.

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Oh, I agree with you. I was just saying that on a sort of "consensus" level.

I've gotten meaning out of things that I've never heard anyone else get meaning out of. To use a game example, I was REALLY impressed by the story and message in Disgaea 3. I don't think ANYONE plays those games for the story. It's all about grinding and big numbers. Yet my takeaway was something profound that no one else on the planet shares with me.

I would never tell people that their interpretation of something is wrong whether I see it as meaningless or not. I just acknowledge that consensus will kind of determine where the conversation goes.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I wasn't talking about Ivy's designs in that argument.

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Ah alright, I must have missed the argument.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Here's the difference though - most people don't like admitting the fact that they consume a lot of trash. Because for most people, that comes with acknowledgement of liking something they know is bad. It's why so many discussions devolve into fallacious garbage. If they'd just admit, "yeah this is garbage" they'd save themselves and everyone else a lot of headaches. Instead we get bullshit about "canon" and statistics with dumb arguments about why it sold well that don't reinforce any point at all (because there are literally a million reasons why a product can sell well).

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I mean I don't really like assigning an absolutist view to what someone gets out of media either. That's kind of the beauty of art; it's one big shapeless variable that will change depending on the observer. Like just because I call certain things I like trashy doesn't mean I would call them bad, just that I acknowledge them as having certain aspects that won't fly for some people or that it just isn't that thought-provoking, at least for me. I wouldn't want them erased from existence because I still get something positive out of them (I wouldn't be consuming them if I didn't).

If people won't acknowledge the trashier aspects of something, whether because they legitimately don't see it that way or they do actually buy into canon justifications of the creator, that's fine. Just don't harass people over it

 

[esserius]

I mean we're kind of getting into the super subjective nature of variable priorities here. Most people don't think too much about the media they consume because it just isn't a big part of their life. Single pieces of media exist in a vacuum to them and whatever has entered the social zeitgeist will get their attention. Those of us on a forum are different because the medium is a big enough part of our lives to make us enthusiasts. Enthusiasts are the minority in pretty much every hobby. The social aspect just isn't there for a not insignificant amount of people.

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I really don't think that's the case. Enthusiasts are the minority, but people think about the media they consume. No media exists in a vacuum. It's literally impossible.

And if they're as unthinking about their consumption as you say, I don't really see how that runs counter to my initial point?

I mean I don't really like assigning an absolutist view to what someone gets out of media either. That's kind of the beauty of art; it's one big shapeless variable that will change depending on the observer. Like just because I call certain things I like trashy doesn't mean I would call them bad, just that I acknowledge them as having certain aspects that won't fly for some people or that it just isn't that thought-provoking, at least for me. I wouldn't want them erased from existence because I still get something positive out of them (I wouldn't be consuming them if I didn't).

If people won't acknowledge the trashier aspects of something, whether because they legitimately don't see it that way or they do actually buy into canon justifications of the creator, that's fine. Just don't harass people over it

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Yeah, just saying, "do nothing" and "don't care" is one way of looking at the world, but not a very productive one.

Your reaction reminds me of this from the Mash Report

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Nice.

Ah alright, I must have missed the argument.

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Anyway, now that I'm a bit rested. That point was about how people tend to end up consuming things because they don't really have any viable equivalent. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 being the most relevant, recent example. Many people consume it in spite of it having some, or many things they don't like, because they want some, or many of the things it offers. But that also comes with a multitude of sacrifices and realizations that the consumption of the media will likely continue both the things they liked and the things they disliked about it. That is, not a lot of introspection from the developers about what people liked and what people didn't, just an assumption that because people bought it, they want "more", without really an understanding of what specifically people wanted from it.

 

[Deleted member 932]

For those concerned about how Kojima will portray female characters in DS don't worry : https://www.vg247.com/2017/01/26/ko...ent-approach-to-overly-sexualised-characters/

you'll be ashamed of your words and deeds again.

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Jesus Christ, Kojima is fucking dense

 

[Dary]

It's like all chance of empathy or care for other people is just thrown out the window. Because lord fucking knows we couldn't possibly get by without more porn in the infinite pile that exists fucking everywhere.

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I think your mistake here is assuming they had any empathy to begin with. Video games, as a whole, have never been very good at empathy, and like attracts like.

Lewis Carol on the other hand would be in heaven with all those loli visual novels

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Seriously, though, it's hilarious how many examples of the subgenre exist outside of Japan, yet it still gets labelled with a Japanese term because Japan invents everything or something.

Sorta on topic, though, since that demonstrates the correlation between increased levels of "geek engagement" and a narrowing of interests - which itself can lead to reduced levels of empathy. A person who refuses to engage with the wider world is going to have a harder time empathising with the people in it.

 

[Milk]

What infuriates me more is just the complete lack of pride. I'm willing to bet that most of them don't even realize they're being looked down on (and if they don't care, well, that speaks volumes about their character, now doesn't it?). Men should, frankly, be insulted at this point that there is so much of this shit. But instead? They eat it up. They are literally eating the shit that is fed to them. I don't know if it's just that they don't know any better, that they're really that childish, or they're just that callous (or all three, I wouldn't be surprised). But god almighty, whatever the reason it is disgusting.

Like, seriously, have a little respect for yourselves, if nothing else.

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This may be the most pretentious thing I've read on the internet so far in 2018.

You're shaming people for liking something. Get over yourself.

 

[Dice]

https://www.dualshockers.com/ps4-exclusive-death-end-request/
So after seeing some of the really cool Tron-Fantasy hybrid designs in Death end re;Quest, and the ....really tasteless cool "super neon armor" they get, I felt bad for the MEN who are often left out of these games!!! D:

So i drew my own!!

Compile Heart please feel free to use <3

 

[Choppasmith]

This may be the most pretentious thing I've read on the internet so far in 2018.

You're shaming people for liking something. Get over yourself.

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Might help to read the OP, bro.

https://www.dualshockers.com/ps4-exclusive-death-end-request/
So after seeing some of the really cool Tron-Fantasy hybrid designs in Death end re;Quest, and the ....really tasteless cool "super neon armor" they get, I felt bad for the MEN who are often left out of these games!!! D:

So i drew my own!!

Compile Heart please feel free to use <3

Click to shrink...

Good work! Really fits in with the others. At first glance it looks official! Not familiar with this at all.

 

[Milk]

Might help to read the OP, bro.

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I've read the OP. Still couldn't stand to watch someone be so arrogant over other people's tastes.

 

[esserius]

 

[cosmicblizzard]

https://www.dualshockers.com/ps4-exclusive-death-end-request/
So after seeing some of the really cool Tron-Fantasy hybrid designs in Death end re;Quest, and the ....really tasteless cool "super neon armor" they get, I felt bad for the MEN who are often left out of these games!!! D:

So i drew my own!!

Compile Heart please feel free to use <3

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Looks great. Would love to play an action game or RPG with a protagonist like that.

Speaking of which, are there ANY action otome games?

 

[petran79]

Sorta on topic, though, since that demonstrates the correlation between increased levels of "geek engagement" and a narrowing of interests - which itself can lead to reduced levels of empathy. A person who refuses to engage with the wider world is going to have a harder time empathising with the people in it.

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Dozens of pages back, a poster here said he had no problems discussing with Holocaust deniers for the sake of tolerance. Equivalent to talking with racists, misogynists etc to understand their views.

In my case I was shocked to learn that part of the foundations of our homes were build with tombs from the largest Jewish cemetery in Europe, victim of both the Nazis and domestic policies later on. Our old house has still tombs inscriptions below the staircase.

 

[Deleted member 4037]

In my case I was shocked to learn that part of the foundations of our homes were build with tombs from the largest Jewish cemetery in Europe, victim of both the Nazis and domestic policies later on. Our old house has still tombs inscriptions below the staircase.

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that sounds like the setup to a horror movie to me...

 

[ShyMel]

Speaking of which, are there ANY action otome games?

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Hakuoki got a Warriors clone game a few years ago that Aksys localized as well, but it had no otome elements and was not that good.

 

[Choppasmith]

I've read the OP. Still couldn't stand to watch someone be so arrogant over other people's tastes.

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I think it's more frustration rather than arrogance. The selling point of a character really shouldn't be how big the chest of a female character is or how much skin she's showing but that's what people get most excited about and that's embarrassing because it just makes it look like that's the primary asset women characters bring and that's not right.

 

[Milk]

I think it's more frustration rather than arrogance. The selling point of a character really shouldn't be how big the chest of a female character is or how much skin she's showing but that's what people get most excited about and that's embarrassing because it just makes it look like that's the primary asset women characters bring and that's not right.

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And I agree.

"These dumb manchildren are literally being fed SHIT and they LIKE it, do they have no respect for themselves?" though... gimme a break. That's not venting, that's just insulting and putting down people for enjoying things.

 

[BBboy20]

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What the fuck are New Mexico, Arkansas, Mississippi, North Carolina, and Vermont doing?

 

[Twig]

Seriously, though, it's hilarious how many examples of the subgenre exist outside of Japan, yet it still gets labelled with a Japanese term because Japan invents everything or something.

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I think it gets labelled with a Japanese term because Japan invented that term, and a convenient one-word definition for this type of story didn't exist before.

Unless I don't know of such a term.

And I agree.

"These dumb manchildren are literally being fed SHIT and they LIKE it, do they have no respect for themselves?" though... gimme a break. That's not venting, that's just insulting and putting down people for enjoying things.

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Yeah but it's true though.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Anyway, now that I'm a bit rested. That point was about how people tend to end up consuming things because they don't really have any viable equivalent. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 being the most relevant, recent example. Many people consume it in spite of it having some, or many things they don't like, because they want some, or many of the things it offers. But that also comes with a multitude of sacrifices and realizations that the consumption of the media will likely continue both the things they liked and the things they disliked about it. That is, not a lot of introspection from the developers about what people liked and what people didn't, just an assumption that because people bought it, they want "more", without really an understanding of what specifically people wanted from it.

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Hah, trust me I get you. Persona 5 was that for me last year. Also as a Bi male I can't think of a single good representation in any media.

 

[Lunaray]

I need to vent, so I'm going to vent.

I really, genuinely hate a lot of the discussion every time characters like Ivy become part of the discussion. My only reaction to all these manchildren going, "hur hur boobs" is just, "what are you, 12?" Like, I have a hard time respecting people who can't even respect themselves enough to not act like animals. God it's infuriating. This industry, and the people who support it, are infuriating. And what's worse is that it happens every fucking time. Every fucking time. It's like all chance of empathy or care for other people is just thrown out the window. Because lord fucking knows we couldn't possibly get by without more porn in the infinite pile that exists fucking everywhere.

Christ.

At this point, my reaction is just:

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I've avoided reading this thread in a long time after it became apparent that newer drive-by posters were recycling tired arguments that had already been addressed in the first few pages of the discussion, but I just wanted to say this is the most cathartic I've felt about a post in a long time. Thank you.

 

[Weltall Zero]

They're *technically* not traveling to a new world, because it's just their consciousness being trapped in a virtual space. For all intents and purposes, though, it's not much of a meaningful distinction. It's an isekai show at heart.

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Even the first part is debatable, as it is indeed a "new world", just a virtual one. But yeah, SAO is 100% an isekai and I can't figure out the agenda behind saying it isn't one.

Bayonetta put some characterisation and context behind the sexualisation. One of the main themes of the game being a witch vs the old church helps too.

Even if one doesn't like it or still thinks it's dumb the difference in execution vs your average "sexy" character is obvious.

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Fully agreed. In other games sexualization is like oxygen, it's everywhere and characters don't even acknowledge it, it's "default". Bayonetta shines a beacon on it, and the very same nature that makes it more visible is the nature that makes it less insidious.

What infuriates me more is just the complete lack of pride. I'm willing to bet that most of them don't even realize they're being looked down on (and if they don't care, well, that speaks volumes about their character, now doesn't it?). Men should, frankly, be insulted at this point that there is so much of this shit. But instead? They eat it up. They are literally eating the shit that is fed to them. I don't know if it's just that they don't know any better, that they're really that childish, or they're just that callous (or all three, I wouldn't be surprised). But god almighty, whatever the reason it is disgusting.

Like, seriously, have a little respect for yourselves, if nothing else.

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Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. To me, as a guy, it kinda comes across as having keys dangled in your face. Yeah, there might be others who will actually laugh and smile, but it just seems tasteless, shallow, and irritating to people like me.

That said, that's just me, I know it doesn't compare to how it makes women feel.

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I was literally going to reply to Esserius' post with "you hit the nail on the head", so reading Choppasmith's made me chuckle. But yeah, I've always said it to anyone who would care to listen: the strongest feeling I immediately have when subjected to blatant pandering? Feeling insulted. Insulted the game thinks I'm so horny that by dangling a pair of virtual tits I'm going to like it more.

That kind of erases their agency and makes the whole situation out to be a lot more complicated than it is for a lot of people. For some, it won't be any more complicated than "I like it." The external factors won't matter. The climate surrounding it won't matter. The fact of the matter is a lot of people just don't put that much thought into their entertainment, and some will have limited enough tastes that they're fine with getting similar things over and over without it being a knock against their intelligence. Why would they be upset at an ever-increasing abundance of things that cater to them? I doubt a lot of them even care if some are looking down on them as it seems there's far more people looking down on the opposite side, at least in this medium. Many would just see something like "respect" as a non-sequitur in such a situation and won't see why it would enter the conversation at all.

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You're making the exact same point they are, the only difference is that you're reframing ignorance, intellectual laziness and lack of empathy as positive (or acceptably neutral) qualities.