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Amiibola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,255
I might be misremembering (it's been a long time!) but I'm sure I read that Anno himself was frustrated with the way the marketing department treated Asuka/Rei, which led to the whole Shinji wank scene in EoE.

Well, at least here it was different for a while, but Japan is japan and, you know... well...

Still, i guess that was on Selecta Vision or Norma Editorial (I don't remember wich one did bring the anime) becase it became creepy after a while, exactly when the figurines started to come oficially over here.

And yeah, i remeber that quote too.

And this is me just being silly, but i honestly don't like a figurine if it doesn't resemble the Saint Seiya ones

saint-seiya-myth-cloth-chrysaor.jpg
saint-seiya-myth-cloth-ex-mu-de-aries-hk-nuevo-re-stock-2013_MPE-F-4034785370_032013.jpg

(There has been a few exceptions though)
 

SieteBlanco

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,878
Anno being frustrated with how Asuka and Rei are treated by the marketing department is a silly myth; Shinji wanking to Asuka was meant to show just how fucked up Shinji was, it wasn't meta criticism of the fanbase.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656

I mean, your avatar is also anime style, considering that it's Final Fantasy. lol

Well, to be quite honest, while the series call them out on it, the marketing actually encourages it. Evangelion is a painful example of a series that survives despite of its marketing machine.

I worked in a comic/manga store when Evangelion came out here in Spain. The original marketing campaign was so different.

It's exactly like Pokémon or Animal Crossing, wich were never about the waifus

Until they suddendly were

FIGURE-030956.jpg
FIGURE-003524.jpg




People don't like to think that they may have a bad taste. That's how some cult statuses are reached.

What? Getting merchandise for figures is extremely common for decades and different characters had such things. That don't have anything to do with "waifus". Even more with an figure like Nendoroid.

Maybe you have some point in there but your example don't make sense at all with such figures that you posted which are pretty simple. But even then, I don't remember any figure of Lillie or Isabelle in degrading situations or sexualized. Lillie got like 4 new figures for different companies but she was just like the games/anime.
 
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OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,671
Canada
https://www.dualshockers.com/ps4-exclusive-death-end-request/
So after seeing some of the really cool Tron-Fantasy hybrid designs in Death end re;Quest, and the ....really tasteless cool "super neon armor" they get, I felt bad for the MEN who are often left out of these games!!! D:

So i drew my own!!

gUXCHv6l.png

Compile Heart please feel free to use <3
It reminds me of the designs in Kill La Kill for the guys, which was the best, funniest part.

Honestly, I think a lot more people would be okay with over the top ridiculously sexualized outfits... if they were at least inclusive. Sometimes I want my characters to look like hulking tanks(of either gender), but sometimes I want stupid looking outfits while performing tasks as ill fitting as the clothes... for both male and female characters. It's why Monster Hunter nailed it, I want more Kirin Armor for my dude characters.

And this is coming from a straight dude.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
Oh god the Curse of EVA I actually forgot that shit.

For those who don't follow Evangelion it's revealed that apparently exposure to the stuff inside Evangelions prevents you from aging. So after a time skip we have a 28 year old Asuka who still looks like a teenager.

Yep Eva pulled the thousand year old dragon.

Even as someone with a tolerance for this stuff I though that was the biggest load of shit I'd ever heard. Like it legit made me angry when I first read spoilers about it.

Sorry for the rant but I HATE that plot point.

Given that Eva's thing is sort of deconstructing those otaku tropes to show how creepy (or just generally flawed) they can be, it sort of makes sense. First it deconstructs the romance of child soldiers in shonen with the fucked-up Eva pilots, then it introduces the idea that Eva pilots can't age and how much that would mess them up too.

The issue with Eva being that many of the fans missed the subtext (or deliberately chose to ignore it) and like what the show is giving them unironically, which is how Rei became such a huge waifu despite her being designed to be a sort of creepy deconstruction of the yamato nadeshiko archetype (with her red eyes and dead personality).

TLDR: the Eva effect is similar to the Chappelle's Show effect where the creator is trying to say something is bad, but people who like that bad thing like the creator's show because they think it's celebrating it.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
It reminds me of the designs in Kill La Kill for the guys, which was the best, funniest part.

Honestly, I think a lot more people would be okay with over the top ridiculously sexualized outfits... if they were at least inclusive. Sometimes I want my characters to look like hulking tanks(of either gender), but sometimes I want stupid looking outfits while performing tasks as ill fitting as the clothes... for both male and female characters. It's why Monster Hunter nailed it, I want more Kirin Armor for my dude characters.

And this is coming from a straight dude.

MH still suffers from double standards. With Kirin, they gave an option for male characters to be more covered with the Beta version of the outfit... with female characters they just recolered the top.

720px-MHW-HRA_Kirin-AB.jpg


PD: Evangelion to me is a case to want to have the cake and eat it. The "deconstrution" talk to me it's just excuses to no admit what it already is.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Given that Eva's thing is sort of deconstructing those otaku tropes to show how creepy (or just generally flawed) they can be, it sort of makes sense. First it deconstructs the romance of child soldiers in shonen with the fucked-up Eva pilots, then it introduces the idea that Eva pilots can't age and how much that would mess them up too.

The issue with Eva being that many of the fans missed the subtext (or deliberately chose to ignore it) and like what the show is giving them unironically, which is how Rei became such a huge waifu despite her being designed to be a sort of creepy deconstruction of the yamato nadeshiko archetype (with her red eyes and dead personality).

TLDR: the Eva effect is similar to the Chappelle's Show effect where the creator is trying to say something is bad, but people who like that bad thing like the creator's show because they think it's celebrating it.

I get that but maybe I'm just cynical. It's hard for me to buy them doing it like that while at the same time being one of the most merchandise heavy shows I've ever scene.

It just feels like there's other ways they could have handled this.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
The old MH at least the armor was the same or similar enough for both genders.

This is disappointing.

Oh was it?, I dunno about old games. I'm a newcomer on the series. My character is a man and I actually liked the beta version of Kirin (it looks dope IMO). When I looked how the female version was... yeah, was kinda lame. The male beta version on a female character would be dope IMO.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
It reminds me of the designs in Kill La Kill for the guys, which was the best, funniest part.

Honestly, I think a lot more people would be okay with over the top ridiculously sexualized outfits... if they were at least inclusive. Sometimes I want my characters to look like hulking tanks(of either gender), but sometimes I want stupid looking outfits while performing tasks as ill fitting as the clothes... for both male and female characters. It's why Monster Hunter nailed it, I want more Kirin Armor for my dude characters.

And this is coming from a straight dude.
Monster Hunter didn't 'nail it'. The designs are completely one-sided, with female characters frequently being stuck with exposed thighs and open faced helmets where the guys are completely covered up from head to toe.

Reposting this because it still pisses me off:
 

EvoTech

Banned
Dec 30, 2017
431
The female gamers and anime fans in our friend group like sexiness, and hell even a good portion even identity as feminists.

I assume it's some sort of maturity / self-esteem type of thing, not just with fictional characters but how they would even treat attractive women in real life.

As for myself, I always disliked many of the anime girl style games for Vita because the gameplay tends to be so shallow.
 

Derpot

Member
Nov 18, 2017
483
France
Monster Hunter didn't 'nail it'. The designs are completely one-sided, with female characters frequently being stuck with exposed thighs and open faced helmets where the guys are completely covered up from head to toe.

Reposting this because it still pisses me off:

*cries* y thooooo
Anjanath and Nergigante female armors are the worst.

On the bright side, some female armors look better than their male counterparts. The Xeno'jiiva armor for example, the female one looks really cool because it reminds me of the Dancer of the Boreal Valley from DS3. The male armor is too... too... overdone? I don't like it.

Here they are:
MHW-HRA_Xenojiiva-AB.jpg

(EDIT: Aaand I just realized the second version has the thighs exposed a bit, dammit lol)
 

Amiibola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,255
But even then, I don't remember any figure of Lillie or Isabelle in degrading situations or sexualized

Waifu culture has nothing to do with sexualization, but it does with objectification and to be honest, i used nendos because they are the cutest figurines you can find (I just love nendos). There are enough examples of Lillie as the official Pokémon waifu as Serena was (even more in the case of Lillie) not as a sexualized character, but as a objectified one

https://i0.wp.com//wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Screen-Shot-2017-07-31-at-2.08.38-AM.png
pokemon-sun-moon-lillie-smartphone-stand-pokemon-center-limited-edition-.jpg

Wich is kind of ironic should i say, because Lillie goes from being an almost literal doll for her mother to a brave and decided to-be trainer aiming for Kanto, no less.

Those MonHunW reminds me that i don't have PS4 and October is so far away ;___;
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Waifu culture has nothing to do with sexualization, but it does with objectification and to be honest, i used nendos because they are the cutest figurines you can find (I just love nendos). There are enough examples of Lillie as the official Pokémon waifu as Serena was (even more in the case of Lillie) not as a sexualized character, but as a objectified one

https://i0.wp.com//wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Screen-Shot-2017-07-31-at-2.08.38-AM.png
pokemon-sun-moon-lillie-smartphone-stand-pokemon-center-limited-edition-.jpg


Wich is kind of ironic should i say, because Lillie goes from being an almost literal doll for her mother to a brave and decided to-be trainer aiming for Kanto, no less.

Those MonHunW reminds me that i don't have PS4 and October is so far ;___;

My problem was more the examples and figures. Even those that you just posted I don't see any problem, it's no different than what Red, Blue, Misty, Brook, Ash and other characters had before with figures in other years.

So, what is your point with the figures? These character can't have figures? The figures represent the waifu culture even if figures like that existed before for other characters in the franchise? Because I don't see a problem at all.
 

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
Who decides what is good or bad though? The market? Reviewers that could be possibly mixed in opinion?

In the case of computer games the issue is a little bit more complex than it is in the case of books because gaming is such a young medium. Also, there are still people out there who think that games are not art, so we have a long way to go before people start to appreciate criticism which goes beyond the scope of reviewing the game. With that said nobody would question the value of Shakespeare's plays, for example; if you concede that, then you must also admit that it is possible, at least in some cases, to agree on some kind of objective beauty, so to say. I think that one day we'll be able to do that for games too. For instance I find that the majority of Harold Bloom's western canon would be difficult to dispute of the ground of literary merit. Similarly I do have my own canon for games too:

tetris
pac man
doom
ico

Now I don't want to go OP, so I won't explain in detail while I think that everything that this medium has offered up until now can be experienced in full by playing those games only. But I think you get my idea. Nobody would question the importance and the beauty of those games. Of course my statement can't possibly be as indisputable as that of Harold Bloom, since he's probably read many more books than I've played games, so I'm willing to concede that my canon is imperfect (it can definitely be expanded upon, and the inclusion of ICO is undoubtedly debatable), but I think it should always be possible to find some agreement at least on some titles, if one is not arguing in bad faith. Conversely it should always be possible to find some agreements on which games/shows/books etc. should be considered trash.

Now there will be cases in which it is impossible to find this consensus, or the merit of a work of art is not so self-evident; then the question boils down to a matter of taste, which of course is not what criticism should be worried about.

Alright, this rant of mine went for far too long. At the end of the day what I'm saying is that either what you love is indisputably a masterpiece, or you should be open to the idea that, by any objective metric that could be used in judging a work of art, it may be something less than what you'd like to think it is.
 
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DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
The problem I have with those figures is that stupid fucking pigeon-toed stance. Get that girl some leg braces before her deformity becomes permanent!
 

OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,671
Canada

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I've already been interacting here for a while, and when I read esserius post it honestly felt more like venting than anything else. It doesn't change that those are her views, of course, but the way they're expressed is the consequence of a pissed off person wanting to vent her frustration in a place where they feel comfortable.

I didn't answer, back then, and I may not hold an opinion as drastic as hers. I think there are times when you want to be rebated, and others when you must just accept what's coming. I'd say that post was an example of the later. I think, that in this day and age, being the 21st century, people should hold themselves to a better standard. I'm not saying that you can't enjoy crap, I enjoy all kinds of crap from time to time too, but you won't see me defending those things. Critical thinking and empathy are two things that people should be able to take for granted in a modern and democratic society, but reality has shown people time and time again that those two are still a rare sight.

I certainly won't look down on anyone for, I don't know, liking Ivy design. But I'd expect people to realize to town down that conversation in the same moment a person expresses their discomfort. Because it hurts nobody to do so. Nier Automata is a game with appealing designs, good gameplay and one of the best narratives I've enjoyed in a game so far. It's been garnering a lot of attention, and that attention would obviously include woman. I don't expect people to never point at 2Bs ass and say it look good or whatever. But people should be mature enough to change the conversation in the same moment a person feels uncomfortable about it instead of getting defensive over it.

And I would certainly look down on people that show certain behaviors, not because the like tits and ass, but because, again, things like empathy and being able to apply some critical thinking to the media you enjoy (if not while, after you've enjoyed it) is something that everyone should strive for because it helps create a healthier society for everyone including ourselves.

I see no problem in someone going to Pizza Hut one night and devouring enough food to last the whole winter. But hell, realize that you're eating fast food. Don't say "nah, man, see how my pizza had basically cheese, veggies, bread and tomate sauce? That's totally healthy! I'm rocking a Meditarrenean diet by dropping here 3 times a week!". Enjoying fast food every once in a while it's ok. But if someone told me the later I won't be able to keep a straight face. I don't know if the analogy serves its purpose well enough, I'm open to suggestions :P

Amazing post. Regarding the last paragraph, I myself was about to use the fast food metaphor (occassionaly, harmless; daily, harmful), including the fact that it's not so much that people consume it but the fact some seem oblivious to what is even bad about it, and also the ridiculous rationalizations why its "ok". So yeah, I get your point perfectly.

Who decides what is good or bad though? The market? Reviewers that could be possibly mixed in opinion?

The point is that even discussion of whether something is good or bad seems to offend people so much that it becomes impossible to analyze or discuss any work without people feeling personally attacked and wanting to stop the conversation in its tracks.

And it's interesting because just today I watched a video that talked about the viscerality with which a lot of gamers attack and ridicule terms like "ludonarrative dissonance" using the trite-as-hell "it's just a game" argument, as if that immediately forbade any kind of analysis or dissection. Which, in my opinion shows a stronger dismissal of the medium than those who actually care enough to think a bit more about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBvj6WWY8KM

The problem I have with those figures is that stupid fucking pigeon-toed stance. Get that girl some leg braces before her deformity becomes permanent!

Heh, she looks like she's doing Dorothy's heel click with the points instead.
 

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
PD: Evangelion to me is a case to want to have the cake and eat it. The "deconstrution" talk to me it's just excuses to no admit what it already is.

Agreed. The show kinda treads a very, very thin line between fan-service and self-critique, if you see what I mean. The movies double down of the fan-service, though that shouldn't surprise anyone who's seen Annio previous work (like the ending episodes of Nadia). One pleasant exception is Kare Kano, which is flat out great if memory serves, but that came after Eva.

A show that does what Eva does minus the fan service is infinite Ryvius.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Amazing post. Regarding the last paragraph, I myself was about to use the fast food metaphor (occassionaly, harmless; daily, harmful), including the fact that it's not so much that people consume it but the fact some seem oblivious to what is even bad about it, and also the ridiculous rationalizations why its "ok". So yeah, I get your point perfectly.



The point is that even discussion of whether something is good or bad seems to offend people so much that it becomes impossible to analyze or discuss any work without people feeling personally attacked and wanting to stop the conversation in its tracks.

And it's interesting because just today I watched a video that talked about the viscerality with which a lot of gamers attack and ridicule terms like "ludonarrative dissonance" using the trite-as-hell "it's just a game" argument, as if that immediately forbade any kind of analysis or dissection. Which, in my opinion shows a stronger dismissal of the medium than those who actually care enough to think a bit more about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBvj6WWY8KM
Just with regard to the fast food point, my office looks out over a leisure park with a KFC on it, and last week there was a shortage of chicken at half of the chain's UK shops due to a new supplier issue. Looking at the body language of sheer rage and screaming amongst its disappointed visitors, despite there being a dozen other places to get chicken/burgers etc within a five minute walk, it made me realise how much fast food makes up a daily part of life here now. When I was a kid your options were the fish and chip shop and it was a local event when an American burger chain opened on the high street. Now there's a near-riot if one of the dozens of junk food outlets is closed for a few days.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
When I was a kid your options were the fish and chip shop and it was a local event when an American burger chain opened on the high street. Now there's a near-riot if one of the dozens of junk food outlets is closed for a few days.

Yikes, the fame of UK's food seems to be justified. :D I'm Spanish so I've always have had a ton of great options as long as memory serves.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Yikes, the fame of UK's food seems to be justified. :D I'm Spanish so I've always have had a ton of great options as long as memory serves.
That's more talking about fast food then restaurants. And a proper fish and chips is one of the best thing you can eat. Another fast food option would be the local greasy spoon which always did a great Ulster Fry (superior to the Full English Breakfast, sorry/not sorry - the soda bread is a thing of beauty) and a great Irish Stew for some bizarre reason I could never understand. Nowadays most of the cafe's round me are quite fancy and there's alot more chains but there's also alot more independant food places too. But you can still get a good chippie or Fry near me too. So many good options :)
 

Kewlmyc

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,742
It's exactly like Pokémon or Animal Crossing, wich were never about the waifus

Until they suddendly were

You're joking right? It's been there from the start for Pokemon, or at least from the start of the anime. For a lot of people, Misty was their first "waifu" or anime crush.

Oh god the Curse of EVA I actually forgot that shit.

For those who don't follow Evangelion it's revealed that apparently exposure to the stuff inside Evangelions prevents you from aging. So after a time skip we have a 28 year old Asuka who still looks like a teenager.

Yep Eva pulled the thousand year old dragon.

Even as someone with a tolerance for this stuff I though that was the biggest load of shit I'd ever heard. Like it legit made me angry when I first read spoilers about it.

Sorry for the rant but I HATE that plot point.


Easily the dumbest part of that already bad movie.

The Curse of Eva is infinite youth, something people have been striving for since the beginning of time? Yeah okay, some "curse".
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Yikes, the fame of UK's food seems to be justified. :D I'm Spanish so I've always have had a ton of great options as long as memory serves.
Yeah, Spanish food is lovely :-) Admittedly that was 30 years ago- there's loads more options now, actually the Spanish restaurant in the town I live in now is one of the best ones here, the British food in pubs varies wildly in quality and price. Fish and chips is ace, you can usually tell which chippy are the best because the queue is out the door while all the others are empty.

That's more talking about fast food then restaurants. And a proper fish and chips is one of the best thing you can eat. Another fast food option would be the local greasy spoon which always did a great Ulster Fry (superior to the Full English Breakfast, sorry/not sorry - the soda bread is a thing of beauty) and a great Irish Stew for some bizarre reason I could never understand. Nowadays most of the cafe's round me are quite fancy and there's alot more chains but there's also alot more independant food places too. But you can still get a good chippie or Fry near me too. So many good options :)
An ex-girlfriend of mine many years ago was Irish and it was a constant source of amusement between her calling it a 'fry' and me a 'fry-up', with regular arguments over the contents. We settled on whoever could be arsed to either make it or pay for it got to call It and put in it whatever the hell they liked. She made an Irish bread too (heavy and really dark, no idea if that's soda), can concur, that was awesome :D

/Apologies for off-topic detour
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,553
I get that but maybe I'm just cynical. It's hard for me to buy them doing it like that while at the same time being one of the most merchandise heavy shows I've ever scene.

It just feels like there's other ways they could have handled this.
No, Gainax definitely try to have their cake and eat it too by how much they cater to and profit from the very same otaku that Anno makes a point of criticizing. On the subject of Rei, I personally believe that Anno derailed his attempt to make her repellent from the very beginning by making her sympathetic in the first episode when Gendo had her wheeled out to take his son's place in spite of her being severely injured and callously dismissing concerns of the idea's feasibility by saying, "She's not dead yet." If I were to guess, the audience's investment in her likely snowballed from there.

Of course, a backfire like what happened with Rei is part of why I don't think it's a particularly good idea to make declarations of specific hopes for intended audience reactions as opposed to commenting on the general themes of one's work and then seeing what conclusions consumers reach for themselves.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
An ex-girlfriend of mine many years ago was Irish and it was a constant source of amusement between her calling it a 'fry' and me a 'fry-up', with regular arguments over the contents. We settled on whoever could be arsed to either make it or pay for it got to call It and put in it whatever the hell they liked. She made an Irish bread too (heavy and really dark, no idea if that's soda), can concur, that was awesome :D

/Apologies for off-topic detour
Heavy and dark would likely be Wheaten bread or rye bread of some kind (Wheaten can be good but needs to be freashly baked, the supermarket stuff is rubbish). Soda bread is really a soda farl, which is like a white dough that uses soda as the raising agent and you grill on one of thos big black round griddle things. Tasy toasted or fried in the pan which fried the bacon. An Ulster Fry also comes with potato bread which is potato mixed with flour, made thin and griddled. And you can fry it if you want. Though Soda bread> Potato bread in my view.

Apologies for off topic but bread is serious business :D
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
The problem I have with those figures is that stupid fucking pigeon-toed stance. Get that girl some leg braces before her deformity becomes permanent!
It's an anime thing™.

But as an owner of several figma's you can pose them as you like, I don't have any standing that way.

If it's what I'm thinking about, It's actually part of the game so the figure is only picking on the original, just like the anime is.

latest

latest

175px-Lillie_SM.png
 

MattWilsonCSS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,349
The people posting about their Pokemon waifus on the internet are certainly not kids, though. I remember Egoraptor in the early days of game grumps asked for sexy May fanart in one of their first playthroughs (probably Pokemon). I try my hardest to chalk it up to.. well maybe they're aged up in the fanart, but I can't extend that benefit of the doubt to most people.
 
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Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Men look and treat at women like pieces of meat. Have crafted rules, laws, governments, societies, hunts, etc around this fact. So when a woman is passively reminded of this reality (and history) in her escapism, what you think she's going to feel next?

And no, women aren't trying to believe they're better than men and even if one does, the self-righteousness that stems from the dealings of an eons-worth of rapes, assassinations, plundering, slavery, beatings, mockings, etc just for having a vagina would be well understood. The Patriarch fuels this. You seem to keep believing that there isn't an correlation to the topic of this thread despite the probability of it being so is high whenever it crops up. Like racism, unfortunately, it's not always clear cut as, funny enough, fiction makes it out to be.

You're making my stance out to be something a lot more than it actually is. This is what my point was.

I would say that it kinda reflects this "boys' club" feeling. When devs or artists publicly admit their love for T&A, they praise them for being honest and for catering to their tastes so "shamelessly", I suppose.
It also feels a bit like a group of men enjoying some porn pictures and commenting on how girls are hot, but instead of being in a corner and doing that privately, they do it on a public forum where there are also women and men that aren't interested in it but can see the conversation and feel repulsed by it.
I mean, I like looking at hot men myself and talking about them to some friends who enjoy them too, alright. But that's it. I don't try to shove how much I love hot men in people's face.

I think the thing is a lot of people don't see this as a public forum. Yeah it's viewable by everyone, but there's also a degree of anonymity to it. Sure some people will have it connected to their real names through other social media, but a lot of the greater internet dickwad theory (and its updated version to take into account those connected to their real names) still applies. I can't imagine these people would act anything like this in "real life" unless they were with close friends. This is a widereaching problem that will likely only get worse with time thanks to the encouragement of apathy that is Internet culture.

BTW, kind of tangential, but I've never understood why people are so offended when someone says that there are good and bad videogames/books/movies etc. I mean, is it really that hard to admit that you might be enjoying something that, objectively, is not good? I think that this sort of relativism is used too many times to shut down someone's argument.

Transformative media isn't objective, which is why people will like "bad" things without admitting they're bad, because they legitimately don't see it as bad. You can have a critical consensus, but no one can decide with the individual finds valuable in fictional media except for, well, the individual.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
When I was there I never noticed anyone doing that. But it's not like I was looking at their feet lol Weird stuff.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
No, Gainax definitely try to have their cake and eat it too by how much they cater to and profit from the very same otaku that Anno makes a point of criticizing. On the subject of Rei, I personally believe that Anno derailed his attempt to make her repellent from the very beginning by making her sympathetic in the first episode when Gendo had her wheeled out to take his son's place in spite of her being severely injured and callously dismissing concerns of the idea's feasibility by saying, "She's not dead yet." If I were to guess, the audience's investment in her likely snowballed from there.

Of course, a backfire like what happened with Rei is part of why I don't think it's a particularly good idea to make declarations of specific hopes for intended audience reactions as opposed to commenting on the general themes of one's work and then seeing what conclusions consumers reach for themselves.

Anno redeemed himself with the live action movie Love and Pop. More creepiness, condemnation and anxiety than all his animated features
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
You're joking right? It's been there from the start for Pokemon, or at least from the start of the anime. For a lot of people, Misty was their first "waifu" or anime crush.




Easily the dumbest part of that already bad movie.

The Curse of Eva is infinite youth, something people have been striving for since the beginning of time? Yeah okay, some "curse".
I don't know about you, but being stuck as myself at 14 sounds like hell. :p
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I usually feel hesitant posting in this thread because I feel like I'd be a self aggrandizing ally and I really don't want to be one.

But goddamn the Soul Calibur thread is just cringy bullshit.
 

CptFalcon

User banned at own request
Banned
Feb 20, 2018
50
Never posted in this thread, but one thing I'll say about videogames are very few companies seem to get context correct with games compared with the film industry. Games don't need to be like movies, and honestly I don't like heavy story driven game regardless, but the things that stick out like a sore thumb in even good videogames don't seem to do that in good movies. Even movies with nudity or sexuality in it, can still be good. In videogames its some bizarre cringeworthy incident.

I don't know if it's because in videogames that the developers and artists are insulated away and can't relate in a more reasonable way like filmmakers or do not have the expertise or what. For example, take fighting games. Some have some of the most exploitative character designs I've seen. Meanwhile you have DECADES worth of female styles in martial arts films to be inspired from. You have producers, directors, costume designers from these films you could consult. Not to create a story, but just to get correct the context of the characters inside what you're making.

Instead it seems to goto artists and graphic designers that seem to have no basis with reality. It's a shame even games that are considered good cannot do better in this area. There are influences and individuals out there to help in whatever you do if you take the time to seek them out.
 

Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
I'm framing it as something inherent with a hint of neutrality. Just enjoying things for whatever reason isn't a crime nor should it be deserving of such ire. Frustration over people lashing out when some semblance of inclusivity enters their space, that I get. But aggressively looking down on someone for enjoying things that pander to them, well I just don't see that as an acceptable response. Not everyone cares to "rise above" their preferred media for whatever reason. Some will do so for completely malicious reasons. Some because they don't know any better. Some because they just don't take entertainment that seriously. I'd say the latter is the majority. Being progressive in entertainment just isn't a priority for most people (places like Era are an anomaly) regardless of medium and I feel it's arrogant to consider oneself better than them because of it.
Fallacy of the majority.

Personally I care about these things in video games, not because I'm part of some insular internet circle but because I ultimately want gaming to be a medium from the perspective of a rather privileged cisgender male in this whole debate, where people of all races, genders, sexual identities, sexes can feel welcome and respected, and when it comes to the average video games treatment of woman and referring back to the content of the title, it's a huge problem, and it needs to be addressed and resorting to this fallacy that "oh the majority of people don't care" is just distracting from the fundamental issue that's being discussed here.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
So I was searching for all the different outfits that Ivy has worn and I found this:
sc_ls_manga_07.jpg

But it was for that Lost Swords game and was designed by a manga artist:
http://www.siliconera.com/2015/02/25/soulcalibur-lost-swords-collaborates-witchcraft-manga-artist/
Ah now we've wrapped back around to that Lost Souls shite.
Everyone remember that super skimpy superhero outfit intended for Taki?
560

Was apparently designed by Shimazaki-sensei, which I find surprising, I'd assume it to have been more classy-but-sexy to have been designed by her. I can only assume the design was commissioned. Then again I guess Lost Souls was a gacha game on a home console, more or less, and gacha games are pretty much glorified porn at this point to encourage mass point-buying, so maybe not.

God I really hope Taki's design in SC6 is more in line with her SC1 art than Ivy... but they might well just put her in the SC1 outfit without adjusting it with her, well, updated body in mind, as with Ivy. I just really love Taki as a character and I want more people to love her but if they reduce her to T&A visually, I can't blame anyone for not...
 

Derpot

Member
Nov 18, 2017
483
France
I think the thing is a lot of people don't see this as a public forum. Yeah it's viewable by everyone, but there's also a degree of anonymity to it. Sure some people will have it connected to their real names through other social media, but a lot of the greater internet dickwad theory (and its updated version to take into account those connected to their real names) still applies. I can't imagine these people would act anything like this in "real life" unless they were with close friends. This is a widereaching problem that will likely only get worse with time thanks to the encouragement of apathy that is Internet culture.

Yeah, I agree. In real life, no way men would openly talk about how girls are hot in front of women. They would get some questioning stares, because people simply don't want to hear embarrasing, cringy comments about T&A in public. Not saying it never happens, but it RARELY does compared to what we read on the Internet.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,420
The English Wilderness
Never posted in this thread, but one thing I'll say about videogames are very few companies seem to get context correct with games compared with the film industry. Games don't need to be like movies, and honestly I don't like heavy story driven game regardless, but the things that stick out like a sore thumb in even good videogames don't seem to do that in good movies. Even movies with nudity or sexuality in it, can still be good. In videogames its some bizarre cringeworthy incident.

I don't know if it's because in videogames that the developers and artists are insulated away and can't relate in a more reasonable way like filmmakers or do not have the expertise or what. For example, take fighting games. Some have some of the most exploitative character designs I've seen. Meanwhile you have DECADES worth of female styles in martial arts films to be inspired from. You have producers, directors, costume designers from these films you could consult. Not to create a story, but just to get correct the context of the characters inside what you're making.

Instead it seems to goto artists and graphic designers that seem to have no basis with reality. It's a shame even games that are considered good cannot do better in this area. There are influences and individuals out there to help in whatever you do if you take the time to seek them out.

It's the same problem that dogs anime: the people involved aren't looking outside of their bubble for inspiration, only to the things that immediately interest them - and, with each generation, things move further and further away from the real world. It's why Nintendo like to employ people with hobbies outside of gaming, instead of those who know nothing but gaming.

It's also a mindset I've encountered amongst numerous aspiring creatives. They're inspired by games, comics, anime et al, but they never think to look beneath the surface at what inspired them, and instead choose simply to imitate at the shallowest of levels.
 
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