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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Anemone is so underrepresented there!
Howl's Moving Castle caught me by surprise too. Usually you get the opposite in entertainment media.
Oh come on.
There are so many examples of ridiculously sexualized female characters in Xenoblade 2. The bunny girl is far from being the only one. And the existence of Morag doesn't magically cancel all of them.
And it's really easy to find many examples of ridiculous female character designs in Japanese games, actually. It's very widespread, but some Japanese devs actually make some effort to portray female characters.
Yeah there's other characters... like Sophitia, which is more sexualized in each entry?... or Taki, that basically goes with a body paint? Seungmina getting more sexualized with each entry? and if you want to bring Xenoblade 2 then oh boy.
The problem is that the balance is so skeewed against women when it comes to sexualized designs. Having a couple of good them doesn't negate the giant amount of others. It's even more grating when you compare it to male designs too.
OP nothing says about extrapolating singular characters into being general theme of the game. Look, Soul Calibur is not a creepy lewd game any more than it was 13 years ago when Ivy appeared in skimpy domina costume for the first time. If people are disappointed in SC now, then where they were 13 years ago? And even then media was even less forgiving for the lewd content in games/movies/comics than they're now.
Such as? I'm not gonna go through all the characters and take wild guesses which ones offend you personally.
Funny though, the OP does say quite a bit about not being dismissive. (It's also highlighted in bold red text at the end of the OP, in case you somehow missed it.)
Which, y'know, you have been since your entrance here.
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Just wanted to scream about how good and important Uncharted: The Lost Legacy is some more... the leads are two women of colour, who are allowed to talk about being women, who don't argue romantically over a man, who are dressed appropriately for the setting and whose unlockable costumes are also completely respectful, who are allowed to get sweaty and dirty and gross, who are never objectified. And it was headed up by two men, so clearly men are perfectly capable of making not only non-sexist but actively feminist games... they just don't want to.
Indeed. This is reaching new levels of dumb.Looks at his profile
I'd guess it's just that they want to exploit men because it's easy. And again, most men seem too dense to realize it.
Thirteen years ago people may have been disappointed but didn't know, or had or felt empowered enough to complain about them. Gaming has been a boy club for a long time, and certain behaviors from a big part of its enthusiast base shows an unwillingness to change that.
And audiences have grown up during the last 13 years. Most of the people that played games during that age when in their teens. Those people are now in their twenties and thirties, have higher consumption power and a different mindset that makes them ask for more when they're buying products. They've been exposed to different ideas and know that they're in a position to ask for something better.
I would say that I'm not the most ardent defendant of not having any kind of fanservice in products. But I don't think developers shouldn't limit their fan service to female characters. Putting Persona 5 Dancing as an example. It's a fanservice game. There is no doubt about it. The whole point of it is seeing the characters from the mainline game dance and interact with each other. I'd say everyone making the game realizes that's the whole selling point. With this point taken, I must ask: why not have equal amounts of fanservice elements (like optional costumes) in the game? Why not add certain elements to the narrative that their female fanbase like? It's a silly fanservice game to begin with, so adding more silliness shouldn't be a problem.
Part of the problem, is that you can have "singular characters" openly and overly sexualized in games, as long as they're female. And most of the time you don't see it happening the other way around. Remember when that swimming series about hot high school male students was announced? There was a lot of pushback from anime communities, as if it was any different than the ecchi harem shows that are released every season. An acceptable example of going both ways(not perfect, but at least is there) is Tales of Berseria premium costumes, when there is sexualized clothing for both the males (excluding Laphi) and the females. Tales is a series with a big female audience with considerable purchasing power, and you can often see that they're aware of it when they build the games.
The series is still not perfect, as I've said before. The main character designers come from a shonen background and sometimes you'll find stuff like Velvet default outfit (which, regardless of sexualization, is a damn mess), but I'd say it's the series that I've played that has found the best balance when it comes to leveraging its male and female fanbases. An interestingly, it's a series made by Namco Bandai too.
I'd say Uncharted has been a positive example since the very beginning too, compared to the products that inspired it.
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I know you're banned at the moment, but I'm going to take the bait and post some examples. I was mostly talking about the Blades:
There is a gallery on this page: http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Blade
And the comparison between them and the male Blades makes it more obvious. The only male Blade who would be considered sexualised is this one: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...2-Yuuou.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171031080905
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It's about ratios. Women are sexualised far more than men, and it's part of and contributes to misogyny, a massive issue that women have to deal with every day.
A few pages back, there was a link to an article that explained the big differences between how male and female sexualized characters are used in a lot of products. The TL;DR version is that a lot of the time sexualized male characters are shown through the lenses of comedy, as opposed as women who are framed in a much more serious manner. It was a really interesting piece and if its owner can link it again it'd be absolutely great.
Just a question. Would you make the same "embracing eroticism" argument if the author was a man?
Yeah, exactly.
*shrugs* indeed.
Just for a change I'd like to post a good design, from the Ion Maiden fps thread
That looks great (not just the armor design, but other elements like the mechanical skulltula in the back). A shame FPS is my absolutely least liked genre.
Eureka 7 is probably my favorite anime of all time, so hats off for the mention. And yeah, Eureka herself always pops into my mind regarding deconstruction of female beauty tropes, which is par for the course for the show; pretty much all of season 1 is a slow and merciless deconstruction of almost every shonen anime trope imaginable, while season 2 is a an amazing reconstruction. Eureka 7 is what Evangelion should have been.
Man I just love Eureka 7 so much. Avoid the movie and sequel series though, they're both shit.
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It's not entirely based around it, but the lack of it is an aspect of toxic masculinity that I dislike. The insecurity of embracing sexuality and sensuality that isn't traditionally masculine, or anything beyond set cis-male archetypes. Also where being boring is more valued,
Which I know isn't exactly the same thing as this, I honestly wasn't posing one as definite over the other, was just honestly curious: what is the dividing line between embracing independent self-expression vs internalising the sexist beauty standards? Is it independent self-expression anyway, or just subconsciously treading the same sexist lines? What's the dividing line between taking back sexual control or just exploiting from the same sexist notebook?
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Now that's the million dollar question, and every feminist you ask will give you a different answer. The fact that this separate discussion complicates matters exponentially is just another reason we may want to judge designs separate from their authors, including these authors' genders.
Which is also to say does it even really matter at the end of the day on what gender the artist is, when art is more about critical reading as opposed to artist's intent? Pointing to the artist always assumes that the artist never fucks up, nor that people don't mix up their messages all the time.
edit: or what you said. :P
edit: or what you said. :P
I don't know why but I found Chloe kinda repulsive as a character in uncharted 2, but loved her in this
She's come a long way from being be sexy sidekick who uses nate, etc
And Nadine is great, a strong female character for sure and outside of Rafe from UC4 she was actually my favorite "villain" in the series
Lost legacy is great and shows the series doesn't need Nate headlining it, though Sam was a welcome addition towards the end
I personally think Naughty Dog is the best in the business of major AAA studios that will show strong women, one can also look at TLOU
I found the handling of Ellie to be fantastic especially in the DLC, the ending...
How do you just shrug that off? Doesn't it bother you what he sees in the game?
If we were bothered every time someone likes a problematic game, we'd spend our entire lives pissed off. :D
Tho the manga did a better Job representing the Tank orientation that is Albedo
Wow, that's a pretty big difference! I had no idea. Watching the first opening, it always bugged me that the quick little action shot of her in the armor seemed to conform to her breasts making it look like fabric rather than metal. But it looks like animators looked at this and scoffed, "How will the audience know there's a beautiful lady inside? Let's sex it up!"
On a related note, I've been playing Dragon Quest Heroes II on STEAM, and it's cool that they give the option of having the female hero wear the DQ1 Hero's armor right away. Wanted to try and get a good screenshot because added curve for breasts aside, I think it looks GREAT in-game especially when doing her coup de grace special attack.
Take my comment with a grain of salt, because honestly, I don't feel like putting the research necessary to back up my hypothesis. It appears to me that a lot of the games many people frown upon for having overly sexualized female characters are Japanese games. I think that's due to cultural differences and how they treat sexuality.
A lot of the mainstream games I play from western developers seem to have more grounded female characters more in line with reality.
A lot of the mainstream games I play from western developers seem to have more grounded female characters more in line with reality.
This is kinda misleading; Eureka's third design changes happens around episode 41, more than 10 episodes before the ending.
Another example would be Evelynn. They had a chance to at least lower the sexualization with the redesign but they just made her even more sexualized.
Anyways, let's talk about a western (...sort of) game then that suffers from this: League of Legends. While League of Legends did get better after the story revamp, it still suffers greatly from it's male-female body types. Male characters in that game get so many different body types while women are stuck with two: childlike cuteness and sexy woman. Sure there are exceptions and the story revamp tried to change it but it caused a funny thing where characters are now no longer matching their new personalities (Orianna and Miss Fortune). And even after the story revamp this dichotomy is still there. Men can be beasts, hulking brutes, and sexy sure but women are stuck between the two still.
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Rek'sai, tho. Although that's just one female Void monster champ versus all the male Void monster champs. They recently added Kai'sa, but she is just another sexy tough girl with a skintight costume.
I found how Anemone and Dominic developed over the course of the series more interesting than following Eureka and Renton, personally. Of course, I also didn't care for much of anything concerning Eureka's adopted kids, so that didn't help.
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Another example would be Evelynn. They had a chance to at least lower the sexualization with the redesign but they just made her even more sexualized.
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I follow a fair few digital artists, and a number of them produce LoL/OW/MtG art (both official and fan pieces)... and this really does seem to be the trend. You might have thought it would go the other way, but it looks instead that people raising issues with problematic design has only convinced them to double down on it.
Just checked and you're right. I thought she got her old appearance back after the final transformation.
Either way, it's still surprising that they would take one of the two leads and give her a deformity. Especially since the only other potential 'waifu' character, Anemone, suffers from mental illness and is constantly drugged up on pain killers. They went out of their way to avoid having most of the women (and the whole cast really) fall into a lot of the pitfalls that have been brought up here irrc.
You can do both. The problem comes when you ascribe the author's intent as the meaning that should be taken away from it, without critical examination. Which is basically just a rebuke of the Thermian argument, at the end of the day. Just because the artist or the lore states a character should be wearing little more than strips of "clothing", doesn't mean you're required to accept or defend it.
Which, to me, reads, "are you a thinking human being or a mindless consumer?"
Hear hear.
And better yet, one of the lead dev was influenced by none other than Feminist Frequency. :) So yes, criticism does have an effect! Without it, perhaps we wouldn't have Uncharted LL. Or we would have, but we'd have the camera constantly checking out Chloe's butt, or she and Nadine (if Nadine even existed) would be arguing about boys, and their unlockable costume would be fetishistic as hell, or.... you know. Hell, maybe not. Maybe it'd be the same. But, based on Neil Druckmann's own words, I doubt it.
Should be noted that being sex positive and being against the shit videogames pull out is not exclusive.
You can super being in favor of more regulation on the porn industry, the legality and regulation of prostitution AND thinking there is no place for one sided nudidty in a videogame that children plays.
It is still feminism. It means equality and we need decades of one sided objectification of male characters to reach equality in this sense.
Yes there are women who feel empowered by bayonetta but there are also trans people who like the existence of poison simply because she exists.
"She is awesome because she owns her sexuality"
Lets try the equality thing here: Name one male character who is awesome because he owns his sexuality. And by owning his sexuality I mean in bayonetta's sense of stripping down like a chippendale dancer while fighting
Bayonetta can be awesome, but she represents a bigger problem
I'd say that LoL's Eve is mostly fine since she is supposed to be a succubus; sex appeal is part of her character. What's silly is that Ahri is already pretty much the same.
Hey guys, it's been a while. This is super off topic and I apologize, but I've kinda gotten back into manga recently and I've been recommended Made in Abyss, which sounds like EXTREMELY my kind of story except the art style puts me off and now I've heard it has some... Questionable content. I recall a couple of users discussed the manga's issues in this thread months ago so I'd like to know what to expect so I can decide if I read it or not. I'd hate to become invested in it to then get grossed out by something.
Normally I'd just go to a manga OT or something but I'd rather hear it from users I'm familiar with, problem is I don't remember exactly who they were so I can't just send PMs either, haha.
Normally I'd just go to a manga OT or something but I'd rather hear it from users I'm familiar with, problem is I don't remember exactly who they were so I can't just send PMs either, haha.
Unnecessarily exposed thighs, this is awesome. My little sister beat DQ1 for the first time recently and she got super excited to play Heroes with me after I showed her this.Wow, that's a pretty big difference! I had no idea. Watching the first opening, it always bugged me that the quick little action shot of her in the armor seemed to conform to her breasts making it look like fabric rather than metal. But it looks like animators looked at this and scoffed, "How will the audience know there's a beautiful lady inside? Let's sex it up!"
On a related note, I've been playing Dragon Quest Heroes II on STEAM, and it's cool that they give the option of having the female hero wear the DQ1 Hero's armor right away. Wanted to try and get a good screenshot because added curve for breasts aside, I think it looks GREAT in-game especially when doing her coup de grace special attack.
Being ignored, dismissed, marginalized, or outright silenced.
Same as today, really.
Made in Abyss is basically child body horror wrapped in an adventure trope. And for the anime, background art that's way too pretty for what's happening on-screen.
One was me (the leper of the thread, so not sure how valued my opinion would be). It's a fantastic and disturbing story that uses art style dissonance incredibly well. It also has some questionable treatment of its 12 year old protagonist. You can kind of brush it off in the early phases including the best arc just after where the anime ends, but it's kind of been upped in the most recent arc to the point one chapter is a few steps away from tentacle rape. It's of course still possible to enjoy in spite of that and the most recent arc is honestly extremely haunting to me in the way the completely alien morality is displayed and the body horror that's come with it, but plenty of people won't have that strong of a threshold.
I'd say you'd be taking a risk starting it depending on how much bullshit you can deal with.
Opa-Pa
Here's my post on it from a while ago.
It's reprehensible and any good qualities about it are completely undermined by the author's... proclivities. Absolute garbage, do not bother.
But hey that's just me.
EDIT: Jesus I made that post half-this-thread ago. Hah.
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If we're talking about champions that use their sexuality as part of their character, you also got to include Miss Fortune.
Meanwhile there are no male champions who use sex appeal as a weapon. Course I think that's more to do with the homophobic outrage that would ensue.
Oh boy, that's quite something ugh, I'm not so sure anymore then. I have so much stuff in my backlog that I have no reason to prioritize that anyway, but thanks a lot for the replies guys.
And cosmicblizzard haha don't say that man. I don't entirely agree with you in some points but I still respect your opinions and now I recall it was actually your posts about it that made me come here to ask.
And cosmicblizzard haha don't say that man. I don't entirely agree with you in some points but I still respect your opinions and now I recall it was actually your posts about it that made me come here to ask.
Your avatar made me think about it lol, but Morrigan from Darkstalkers is also a succubus, and I'm fine with her design because well... she's a succubus, so that's the point of her design.
You mean my friend? She's a woman too but when I told her about the "conveniently gorgeous" thing, she kinda laughed about it because yes, it's silly lol. And I shrugged because I was thinking "oh well, no surprise here".
God, I hate her the most from the entire champion list... so badly, so much and so painfully.
I agree with almost everything above (except the "think of the children" argument, but that's a minor point); hopefully it's obvious that I was not implying negative correlation, let alone mutual exclusion, between sex-positive feminism and criticism of sexualization in games.
Is the latter objectively wrong, though? I mean, leaving aside that the "it would be bad to hit a woman" reason for being transgender was so far beyond problematic that you'd need a new word for it...
This argument however seems flawed to me. The existence of a "male Bayonetta" has little bearing on whether the original design is problematic or not. I mean, suppose someone does name, or even straight up creates such a game right now (or ten); does her design magically become less problematic? Would it change your opinion of her one ounce?
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