One good example (and the only one I know) is Eureka from Eureka 7. She starts out as a perfect haired pretty girl that the mc is in love with, and half way through the series sci-fi magic leaves her with rough hair, no eyebrows and facial scar tissue. She's doesn't look horribly deformed though; she looks like she had a bad accident, and the characters (including mc) treat her with the same respect, love, and support as they did before the event irrc.
She ends up staying that way all the way up until the second to last episode, only having the scars heal a little and begining to regrow her hair. It's still kind of a cop out to some degree, but it works with the metaphors they were using it for.
https://imgur.com/gallery/YtnaE
I find picking Ivy or that bunny girl from new Xenoblades as the examples of treatment of women in games in general quite ridiculous. For each Ivy you have 10 other women characters in Soul Calibur with decent designs that are conveniently ignored for the sake of making argument that women are treated as sexual objects and how it makes them unwelcome when, in fact, they're just put there for the sake of filling certain archetype of a woman. Hovewer, nobody forces you to play as an Ivy, and if you insist there will probably be an alt costume that will turn her from a girl with BDSM fetish attire into something more reasonable.
That is not to say you can't complain about that Ivy design, but people will find your argument petty as these characters aren't even central characters in the game. It's just one of choices, not something devs will gleefuly expect you to pick or deal with unless she comes up as an opponent character.
I find picking Ivy or that bunny girl from new Xenoblades as the examples of treatment of women in games in general quite ridiculous. For each Ivy you have 10 other women characters in Soul Calibur with decent designs that are conveniently ignored for the sake of making argument that women are treated as sexual objects and how it makes them unwelcome when, in fact, they're just put there for the sake of filling certain archetype of a woman. Hovewer, nobody forces you to play as an Ivy, and if you insist there will probably be an alt costume that will turn her from a girl with BDSM fetish attire into something more reasonable.
That is not to say you can't complain about that Ivy design, but people will find your argument petty as these characters aren't even central characters in the game. It's just one of choices, not something devs will gleefuly expect you to pick or deal with unless she comes up as an opponent character.
OP nothing says about extrapolating singular characters into being general theme of the game. Look, Soul Calibur is not a creepy lewd game any more than it was 13 years ago when Ivy appeared in skimpy domina costume for the first time. If people are disappointed in SC now, then where they were 13 years ago? And even then media was even less forgiving for the lewd content in games/movies/comics than they're now.I heard there's an OP in this thread... perhaps you should read it.
Such as? I'm not gonna go through all the characters and take wild guesses which ones offend you personally.There are so many examples of ridiculously sexualized female characters in Xenoblade 2.
Funny though, the OP does say quite a bit about not being dismissive. (It's also highlighted in bold red text at the end of the OP, in case you somehow missed it.)OP nothing says about extrapolating singular characters into being general theme of the game. Look, Soul Calibur is not a creepy lewd game any more than it was 13 years ago when Ivy appeared in skimpy domina costume for the first time. If people are disappointed in SC now, then where they were 13 years ago? And even then media was even less forgiving for the lewd content in games/movies/comics than they're now.
Funny though, the OP does say quite a bit about not being dismissive.
Indeed. This is reaching new levels of dumb.
I'd guess it's just that they want to exploit men because it's easy. And again, most men seem too dense to realize it.Just wanted to scream about how good and important Uncharted: The Lost Legacy is some more... the leads are two women of colour, who are allowed to talk about being women, who don't argue romantically over a man, who are dressed appropriately for the setting and whose unlockable costumes are also completely respectful, who are allowed to get sweaty and dirty and gross, who are never objectified. And it was headed up by two men, so clearly men are perfectly capable of making not only non-sexist but actively feminist games... they just don't want to.
OP nothing says about extrapolating singular characters into being general theme of the game. Look, Soul Calibur is not a creepy lewd game any more than it was 13 years ago when Ivy appeared in skimpy domina costume for the first time. If people are disappointed in SC now, then where they were 13 years ago? And even then media was even less forgiving for the lewd content in games/movies/comics than they're now.
Just wanted to scream about how good and important Uncharted: The Lost Legacy is some more... the leads are two women of colour, who are allowed to talk about being women, who don't argue romantically over a man, who are dressed appropriately for the setting and whose unlockable costumes are also completely respectful, who are allowed to get sweaty and dirty and gross, who are never objectified. And it was headed up by two men, so clearly men are perfectly capable of making not only non-sexist but actively feminist games... they just don't want to.
Such as? I'm not gonna go through all the characters and take wild guesses which ones offend you personally.
It's about ratios. Women are sexualised far more than men, and it's part of and contributes to misogyny, a massive issue that women have to deal with every day.
I guess that also goes into the murkier pools of authorial intent vs critical interpretation doesn't it?
I agree for sure that "it's by a women" is not a slam dunk "it's not sexist", I was more questioning that embracing eroticism is inherently sexist? I mean I know feminism isn't exactly a consensus anyway, thus the JLaw reference.
Sexism, much like objectification, are neutral terms. They are not inherently feminine or masculine, and their perpetuation is not specific to the creator. Anyone can be sexist, and they can be sexist towards men, towards women, towards homosexuals, bisexuals, transgender, etc. The same is true of objectification.
Or, more to the point, the creator is not the arbiter of our perception. We are allowed to look past a person to see what they create and judge their creations, based on their own merits and histories, and do not have to engage with the creator in order to do so (we certainly can, but it is by no means necessary).
I understand the point of view you have and to a point, I want more appropriate armor/clothing for female and male characters, but this conversation isn't going to change to biggest abusers of this, Japanese developers. The unfortunate truth is that until we see more women buying AAA games at a point that affects the bottom line change wont happen outside of a few developers/Publishers. We'll continue to see overly sexualized characters for the foreseeable future because Sex Sells *shrugs*.
Just for a change I'd like to post a good design, from the Ion Maiden fps thread
One good example (and the only one I know) is Eureka from Eureka 7. She starts out as a perfect haired pretty girl that the mc is in love with, and half way through the series sci-fi magic leaves her with rough hair, no eyebrows and facial scar tissue. She's doesn't look horribly deformed though; she looks like she had a bad accident, and the characters (including mc) treat her with the same respect, love, and support as they did before the event irrc.
She ends up staying that way all the way up until the second to last episode, only having the scars heal a little and begining to regrow her hair. It's still kind of a cop out to some degree, but it works with the metaphors they were using it for.
https://imgur.com/gallery/YtnaE
Just a question. Would you make the same "embracing eroticism" argument if the author was a man?
The eye of the beholder.Which I know isn't exactly the same thing as this, I honestly wasn't posing one as definite over the other, was just honestly curious: what is the dividing line between embracing independent self-expression vs internalising the sexist beauty standards of hollywood dresscodes? Is it independent self-expression anyway, or just subconsciously treading the same sexist lines? Same for the female artist creating sexualised artwork, what's the dividing line between taking back sexual control or just exploiting the same sexist attitudes?
What's the dividing line between taking back sexual control or just exploiting from the same sexist notebook?
Just wanted to scream about how good and important Uncharted: The Lost Legacy is some more... the leads are two women of colour, who are allowed to talk about being women, who don't argue romantically over a man, who are dressed appropriately for the setting and whose unlockable costumes are also completely respectful, who are allowed to get sweaty and dirty and gross, who are never objectified. And it was headed up by two men, so clearly men are perfectly capable of making not only non-sexist but actively feminist games... they just don't want to.
How do you just shrug that off? Doesn't it bother you what he sees in the game?
How do you just shrug that off? Doesn't it bother you what he sees in the game?
Tho the manga did a better Job representing the Tank orientation that is Albedo
She ends up staying that way all the way up until the second to last episode, only having the scars heal a little and begining to regrow her hair. It's still kind of a cop out to some degree, but it works with the metaphors they were using it for.
https://imgur.com/gallery/YtnaE
Another example would be Evelynn. They had a chance to at least lower the sexualization with the redesign but they just made her even more sexualized.
Anyways, let's talk about a western (...sort of) game then that suffers from this: League of Legends. While League of Legends did get better after the story revamp, it still suffers greatly from it's male-female body types. Male characters in that game get so many different body types while women are stuck with two: childlike cuteness and sexy woman. Sure there are exceptions and the story revamp tried to change it but it caused a funny thing where characters are now no longer matching their new personalities (Orianna and Miss Fortune). And even after the story revamp this dichotomy is still there. Men can be beasts, hulking brutes, and sexy sure but women are stuck between the two still.
I found how Anemone and Dominic developed over the course of the series more interesting than following Eureka and Renton, personally. Of course, I also didn't care for much of anything concerning Eureka's adopted kids, so that didn't help.Anemone is so underrepresented there!
Howl's Moving Castle caught me by surprise too. Usually you get the opposite in entertainment media.
Another example would be Evelynn. They had a chance to at least lower the sexualization with the redesign but they just made her even more sexualized.
Before
After
Just checked and you're right. I thought she got her old appearance back after the final transformation.This is kinda misleading; Eureka's third design changes happens around episode 41, more than 10 episodes before the ending.
You can do both. The problem comes when you ascribe the author's intent as the meaning that should be taken away from it, without critical examination. Which is basically just a rebuke of the Thermian argument, at the end of the day. Just because the artist or the lore states a character should be wearing little more than strips of "clothing", doesn't mean you're required to accept or defend it.Which is also to say does it even really matter at the end of the day on what gender the artist is, when art is more about critical reading as opposed to artist's intent? Pointing to the artist always assumes that the artist never fucks up, nor that people don't mix up their messages all the time.
Hear hear.Just wanted to scream about how good and important Uncharted: The Lost Legacy is some more... the leads are two women of colour, who are allowed to talk about being women, who don't argue romantically over a man, who are dressed appropriately for the setting and whose unlockable costumes are also completely respectful, who are allowed to get sweaty and dirty and gross, who are never objectified. And it was headed up by two men, so clearly men are perfectly capable of making not only non-sexist but actively feminist games... they just don't want to.
Welcome to the wonderful world of schisms or divides among feminism, of which there are many. Case in point (and in fact related):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism
And yeah, Bayonetta is a case often brought up, and I've seen perfectly valid, intellectually solid feminist writings about why she's a symbol of female empowerment, and likewise about why she's the most objectivized and sexist thing ever. My own opinion is somewhere in between but changing depending on what day of the week you ask me.
Unnecessarily exposed thighs, this is awesome. My little sister beat DQ1 for the first time recently and she got super excited to play Heroes with me after I showed her this.Wow, that's a pretty big difference! I had no idea. Watching the first opening, it always bugged me that the quick little action shot of her in the armor seemed to conform to her breasts making it look like fabric rather than metal. But it looks like animators looked at this and scoffed, "How will the audience know there's a beautiful lady inside? Let's sex it up!"
On a related note, I've been playing Dragon Quest Heroes II on STEAM, and it's cool that they give the option of having the female hero wear the DQ1 Hero's armor right away. Wanted to try and get a good screenshot because added curve for breasts aside, I think it looks GREAT in-game especially when doing her coup de grace special attack.
Being ignored, dismissed, marginalized, or outright silenced.If people are disappointed in SC now, then where they were 13 years ago? And even then media was even less forgiving for the lewd content in games/movies/comics than they're now.
Made in Abyss is basically child body horror wrapped in an adventure trope. And for the anime, background art that's way too pretty for what's happening on-screen.Hey guys, it's been a while. This is super off topic and I apologize, but I've kinda gotten back into manga recently and I've been recommended Made in Abyss, which sounds like EXTREMELY my kind of story except the art style puts me off and now I've heard it has some... Questionable content. I recall a couple of users discussed the manga's issues in this thread months ago so I'd like to know what to expect so I can decide if I read it or not. I'd hate to become invested in it to then get grossed out by something.
Normally I'd just go to a manga OT or something but I'd rather hear it from users I'm familiar with, problem is I don't remember exactly who they were so I can't just send PMs either, haha.
Hey guys, it's been a while. This is super off topic and I apologize, but I've kinda gotten back into manga recently and I've been recommended Made in Abyss, which sounds like EXTREMELY my kind of story except the art style puts me off and now I've heard it has some... Questionable content. I recall a couple of users discussed the manga's issues in this thread months ago so I'd like to know what to expect so I can decide if I read it or not. I'd hate to become invested in it to then get grossed out by something.
Normally I'd just go to a manga OT or something but I'd rather hear it from users I'm familiar with, problem is I don't remember exactly who they were so I can't just send PMs either, haha.
Opa-PaThat's how I felt until just half an hour ago.
Have you read the manga? The latest chapter contains:
- implied penetration as a joke (it's an organic "toilet" with a little tentacle sticking up right where she was sitting, and she has one of those faces and makes one of those sounds)
- something attacking riko and pulling her clothes down to reveal her chest
Like if it was an adult woman, I personally could tolerate it, even if it annoyed me. But I just can't. She's supposed to be 12, and unlike a lot of problematic characters in games/anime, actually looks young, too, so I can't even head canon it to her being an adult disguised as a high school student.
I really liked (most) of the anime, but this makes me retroactively hate it. ):
The worst part is, it's not even justified within the context of what's happening. I mean, not that that would make it better. But it does mean the dude literally just threw it in there because it makes him horny. Maybe when season two adapts more stuff they'll just leave that shit out. I have a feeling they'll keep it in spirit, though, at the very least.
If we're talking about champions that use their sexuality as part of their character, you also got to include Miss Fortune.I'd say that LoL's Eve is mostly fine since she is supposed to be a succubus; sex appeal is part of her character. What's silly is that Ahri is already pretty much the same.
I'd say that LoL's Eve is mostly fine since she is supposed to be a succubus; sex appeal is part of her character.
How do you just shrug that off? Doesn't it bother you what he sees in the game?
God, I hate her the most from the entire champion list... so badly, so much and so painfully.
Opa-Pa
Here's my post on it from a while ago.
It's reprehensible and any good qualities about it are completely undermined by the author's... proclivities. Absolute garbage, do not bother.
But hey that's just me.
EDIT: Jesus I made that post half-this-thread ago. Hah.
Meanwhile there are no male champions who use sex appeal as a weapon. Course I think that's more to do with the homophobic outrage that would ensue.
Should be noted that being sex positive and being against the shit videogames pull out is not exclusive.
You can super being in favor of more regulation on the porn industry, the legality and regulation of prostitution AND thinking there is no place for one sided nudidty in a videogame that children plays.
It is still feminism. It means equality and we need decades of one sided objectification of male characters to reach equality in this sense.
Yes there are women who feel empowered by bayonetta but there are also trans people who like the existence of poison simply because she exists.
"She is awesome because she owns her sexuality"
Lets try the equality thing here: Name one male character who is awesome because he owns his sexuality. And by owning his sexuality I mean in bayonetta's sense of stripping down like a chippendale dancer while fighting
Bayonetta can be awesome, but she represents a bigger problem