Why do so many liberals ability to care stop at trans people?

Deleted member 25606 · Mar 24, 2018

I have been saying this for a while now, and pretty much avoid most threads on the issues now because people consistently show their idiocy and I would rather spend my time on the issue in the real world actually trying to promote change and awareness and activism instead of arguing with internet liberals who are just going to accuse me of purity politics because I won't budge on the one issue they can be as regressive as the right about.

As for old GAF/era being supportive when contrasted with other sites of this type yes it looks good but when taken on its own and actually looking at what threads on theses issues turn into it's still a really bad track record, just because it's better than other places doesn't mean it's good.

Brakke · Mar 24, 2018

You're fighting a straw man here. If you wanna call out posts, quote 'em and call 'em out. If you're just reporting your general perceptions, you're not telling us about ERA, you're only telling us about yourself.

bionic77 · Mar 24, 2018

For me I would say that the election in this country changed what I thought of America and what Americans are capable of.

I have very different expectations for what is possible from a civil rights perspective than I did 2 years ago.

I am always going to be for equality and firmly on the left, but I have definitely lost a lot of my hope and optimism for this country.

I am now more worried about keeping what we have instead of worrying about how things can get better.

I hope I am made to look very foolish in the next 10 years.

Cream · Mar 24, 2018

Brakke said:
You're fighting a straw man here. If you wanna call out posts, quote 'em and call 'em out. If you're just reporting your general perceptions, you're not telling us about ERA, you're only telling us about yourself.

Did you miss the Dave Chappelle threads or the JK Rowling thread?

PaulloDEC · Mar 24, 2018

dusteatingbug said:
I agree with this, but just to expand on my earlier post the sad thing is that it shouldn't matter. People shouldn't need to know a member of a minority not to be prejudiced about that minority. I wish people would learn the lesson "don't discriminate against any kind of person for who they are" instead of learning the lesson "don't discriminate against black people" and then later separately learning "don't discriminate against gay people" and then "don't discriminate against Asian people" and on and on and on.

But sadly it doesn't seem that that's the way people work.

I think the issue with this particular subject is that the entire concept of it shakes up peoples' worldviews. It's the equivalent of saying to someone "Hey, remember that simple fact you've known and understood your entire life? Well it's actually wrong, and if you don't accept that immediately you'll be wrong too". That isn't always easy to take.

People don't like change.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Mar 24, 2018

nemoral said:
All that said, I'd be interested in what forums you think are doing a better job at creating a welcoming space for trans people in the gaming field.

Improvement is impossible?

dusteatingbug said:
Also, Cream, as a cisgender member what would you say I should be doing to push back against this? Not as a confrontational question just honestly asking what you think would be good for aspiring allies to do, given what you've seen?

Most of us just want people to actually engage with these issues when they come up.

RationalGinger · Mar 24, 2018

dusteatingbug said:
I agree with this, but just to expand on my earlier post the sad thing is that it shouldn't matter. People shouldn't need to know a member of a minority not to be prejudiced about that minority. I wish people would learn the lesson "don't discriminate against any kind of person for who they are" instead of learning the lesson "don't discriminate against black people" and then later separately learning "don't discriminate against gay people" and then "don't discriminate against Asian people" and on and on and on.

But sadly it doesn't seem that that's the way people work.

I'm right there with you. Why can't we just treat people like...well people? Regardless of circumstance we all belong to the same species at the end of the day. Everyone is worthy of love and respect.

That doesn't mean people won't get confused about how to approach a subject like this, but that should be the basic starting point.

skullmuffins · Mar 24, 2018

Cream said:
Even in the new thread about Trump trying to ban them from the military again, it feels like people barely care, and are just shaking it off, focusing on how stupid trump is, instead of feeling like they are actually angry and scared for their trans peers. Almost like "pfft yeah go ahead and try Trump!"

I think much of this is misplaced gloating because Trump's first attempt had injunctions put upon it. I've seen a lot of people who think he already conclusively lost this battle and is just posturing with the new ban, so there's no reason to take it seriously.

Dreams-Visions · Mar 24, 2018

Lack of personal experience and the extended empathy that comes with it.

Aselith · Mar 24, 2018

You want to post some examples of people dropping the ball but caring deeply about other liberal issues? Hard to know what you mean if you are talking vaguely about people posting. I'm sure there are some JK Rowling types running around but if youre gonna have the discussion, you might want to lay out what you want to change

Noroi_Kisaragi · Mar 24, 2018

loquaciousJenny said:
I mean, the same could be said of the old place. Trans issues were better there than other sites, but it didn't stop some cunt from banning half of the trans community for defending their identity. That said the zero tolerance policy on trans hate here has been pretty nice frankly.

Well you know, that zero tolerance could be why people are afraid to talk about their honest opinions, with this issue which may be what causes the OP to notice the strange silence/disconnect. Like there's a discussion not being had, and people are afraid to actually connect and talk about it..

They're afraid if they ask about it they get banned if they say something bad or they express an opinion you don't like. So instead they'll just pretend like they understand and silently acknowledge.

Cream · Mar 24, 2018

dusteatingbug said:
Also, Cream, as a cisgender member what would you say I should be doing to push back against this? Not as a confrontational question just honestly asking what you think would be good for aspiring allies to do, given what you've seen?

Engaging with the issue instead of ignoring it.

People are constantly downplaying it.

I remember the thread where it showed the statistic of how many people support trans rights and so many people were just like "wow! Higher than I thought! We've made so much progress" and it's like.... no. Trans people are still completely treated like shit.

loquaciousJenny · Mar 24, 2018

Cream said:
Did you miss the Dave Chappelle threads or the JK Rowling thread?

man people were doing some gymnastics to muddy that Rowling thread when I checked.

Deleted member 835 · Mar 24, 2018

Brakke said:
You're fighting a straw man here. If you wanna call out posts, quote 'em and call 'em out. If you're just reporting your general perceptions, you're not telling us about ERA, you're only telling us about yourself.

Many trans Era people feel the same, it isn't just the OP saying her opinion

Hierophant · Mar 24, 2018

I wouldn't be surprised to see if this site has a bunch of TERFs or just straight up transphobic people in denial.

ShaheedMalik said:
I've had a couple of threads shut down by mods simply because a particular mod didn't the post. These threads contained no arguing but just to kill the thread. That's poor moderation.

If the thread makes people sad or possibly angry, they want to shut down discourse.

Threads such as:
Gun violence
Racism
Police Treatment.
Etc.

They don't want cages rattled to keep whoever happy.

A certain member PMed me a while ago about how PMing the mods, even with evidence, was essentially like talking to a brick wall, at least in regards to their concerns about transphobia and misogyny, which is a thing that goes back to GAF as well. I'm not going to say the person who PMed me was completely in the right as I don't have all the details, but the behaviour of some posters in threads about trans people does make me more inclined to believe them.

TissueBox · Mar 24, 2018

Everyone should also read this thread by KetKat before engaging in a serious discussion about transgender subjects on this forum; it covers some basic key points and the numerous argumentative humps that often comprise the discourse every single time:

Transgender 101

The same questions, the same frustrations, the same hostilities that occur in nearly every topic about this with those who might not be sufficiently informed can become draining after a few days, let alone years, so... don't be afraid to have resources! ^^'

dusteatingbug · Mar 24, 2018

MiraculousSwidge said:
Improvement is impossible?

Most of us just want people to actually engage with these issues when they come up.

Cream said:
Engaging with the issue instead of ignoring it.

People are constantly downplaying it.

I remember the thread where it showed the statistic of how many people support trans rights and so many people were just like "wow! Higher than I thought! We've made so much progress" and it's like.... no. Trans people are still completely treated like shit.

Right on, thanks.

Ketkat · Mar 24, 2018

Noroi_Kisaragi said:
Well you know, that zero tolerance could be why people are afraid to talk about their honest opinions, with this issue which may be what causes the OP to notice the strange silence/disconnect. Like there's a discussion not being had, and people are afraid to actually connect and talk about it..

They're afraid if they ask about it they get banned if they say something bad or they express an opinion you don't like. So instead they'll just pretend like they understand and silently acknowledge.

People showing a willingness to learn don't get banned for it. We even have a large education thread on this that was largely ignored

Deleted member 22901 · Mar 24, 2018

I've noticed it too. It's really easy to tell when people don't actually care about or understand trans people. I think a lot of people simply can't relate to trans folks. Maybe they don't know any trans people, or just don't pay attention. It seems like most people don't even know how transitioning works.

I don't know, I'd like to think a lot of people aren't malicious, but it feels really shitty when the people who are supposed to be your allies don't even understand your problems in the first place.

Deleted member 1248 · Mar 24, 2018

We're flawed. It sucks, but I think we'll catch up eventually. I don't really know what else to say other than I acknowlege the frustration and I'll try to be more vigilant about it if I'm not already.

ArrogantBastard · Mar 24, 2018

Cream said:
Engaging with the issue instead of ignoring it.

People are constantly downplaying it.

I remember the thread where it showed the statistic of how many people support trans rights and so many people were just like "wow! Higher than I thought! We've made so much progress" and it's like.... no. Trans people are still completely treated like shit.

No offense man, it is a relatively brand new issue for most people. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority haven't had a single interaction of merit with a transgender individual. I hadn't until this year when one of my students pulled me aside and shot me an email.

ProfessorLobo · Mar 24, 2018

Cream said:
Engaging with the issue instead of ignoring it.

People are constantly downplaying it.

I remember the thread where it showed the statistic of how many people support trans rights and so many people were just like "wow! Higher than I thought! We've made so much progress" and it's like.... no. Trans people are still completely treated like shit.

I remember that thread as well, I don't remember anyone saying improvement couldn't be made. For what its worth, it was higher than I thought and we have made a lot of progress.

ProfessorLobo · Mar 24, 2018

ProfessorLobo said:
I remember that thread as well, I don't remember anyone saying improvement couldn't be made. For what its worth, it was higher than I thought and we have made a lot of progress.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Mar 24, 2018

bionic77 said:
I am now more worried about keeping what we have instead of worrying about how things can get better.

I mean, trans people certainly aren't. We still have to worry about getting basic fucking protections. We still have to worry about medical gatekeeping that keeps treatment out of the hands of those who need it most. We still have to worry about being ignored by the political party that claims to support us. We still have to worry about absurd suicide rates.

Brakke said:
You're fighting a straw man here. If you wanna call out posts, quote 'em and call 'em out. If you're just reporting your general perceptions, you're not telling us about ERA, you're only telling us about yourself.

If so, all of TransERA is fighting a strawman.

Cream · Mar 24, 2018

ProfessorLobo said:
I remember that thread as well, I don't remember anyone saying improvement couldn't be made. For what its worth, it was higher than I thought and we have made a lot of progress.

You even feeling the need to say that to me, a trans person, just to be contrarian, feels very dismissive, sorry.

Deleted member 835 · Mar 24, 2018

ArrogantBastard said:
No offense man, it is a relatively brand new issue for most people. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority haven't had a single interaction of merit with a transgender individual. I hadn't until this year when one of my students pulled me aside and shot me an email.

Cream is a woman. Also just because a trans people are new to some people doesn't mean they can't be nice and respectful (maybe even ask questions to learn about trans people more), instead of treating trans people like shit

Zukuu · Mar 24, 2018

Brakke said:
You're fighting a straw man here. If you wanna call out posts, quote 'em and call 'em out. If you're just reporting your general perceptions, you're not telling us about ERA, you're only telling us about yourself.

This. Most people on here generally support trans rights and people, so I'm not sure what you expect more.

Powdered Egg · Mar 24, 2018

Speaking for myself, I only came to understand transgender issues by chance. My wife has a transgender childhood friend, so she was the one to explain gender dysphoria to me. Before that I was slightly transphobic and held some idiotic positions.

I think the major problems are ignorance, lack of personal exposure to transgender people, and society being sexually conservative and religious.

kadotsu · Mar 24, 2018

I think we should aim for being good on trans issues not better than the internet. It's like saying we are better than stormfront on race issues. The sad thing is that you could earmark almost every shit policy discussion with "this will be twice as bad for the trans community". See FOSTA, which will probably be used to shut down online trans communities because their mere existence is falsely perceived as sexually deviant.

Deleted member 6223 · Mar 24, 2018

As a trans woman and person I don't even bother going into some of these threads, like the J.K. Rowling or Chappelle ones because to me it feels like an exercise in futility. I can tell when it's gonna be whatever so I just leave to not get as annoyed.

Cream · Mar 24, 2018

Zukuu said:
This. Most people on here generally support trans rights and people, so I'm not sure what you expect more.

Why do you think most trans posters disagree with you?

ArrogantBastard · Mar 24, 2018

Beefy said:
Cream is a woman. Also just because a trans people are new to some people doesn't mean they can't be nice and respectful, instead of treating trans people like shit

What? That has nothing to do with what I said at all.

Kilic95 · Mar 24, 2018

Matthew77 said:
As for old GAF/era being supportive when contrasted with other sites of this type yes it looks good but when taken on its own and actually looking at what threads on theses issues turn into it's still a really bad track record, just because it's better than other places doesn't mean it's good.

Right, inclusiveness is something that still needs to be worked on.

With that said, this site hasn't been up for a year yet. I think, personally, things will get better. Moderators shouldn't be blamed so harshly.

Deleted member 835 · Mar 24, 2018

Zukuu said:
This. Most people on here generally support trans rights and people, so I'm not sure what you expect more.

Read the other posts. More than one trans person is saying the same thing

Zukuu · Mar 24, 2018

Cream said:
Why do you think most trans posters disagree with you?

You made the thread. So tell me.

Socrates · Mar 24, 2018

I can't say I really agree at least with regards to this forum. Resetera is very pro-trans.
As for liberals in wider society that is a difficult one. The idea that gender and birth sex are the same is fairly ingrained. Visually, some people find it a little bit unsettling when someone Is presenting different to their birth sex. It is also fairly rare, so the average "liberal" is much less likely to have any interactions with trans people in comparison gay people or people from a different ethnic background.

Ketkat · Mar 24, 2018

Socrates said:
I can't say I really agree at least with regards to this forum. Resetera is very pro-trans.
As for liberals in wider society that is a difficult one. The idea that gender and birth sex are the same is fairly ingrained. Visually, some people find it a little bit unsettling when someone Is presenting different to their birth sex. It is also fairly rare, so the average "liberal" is much less likely to have any interactions with trans people in comparison gay people or people from a different ethnic background.

Lesson #1 : Don't say we look unsettling

Cream · Mar 24, 2018

Zukuu said:
You made the thread. So tell me.

I did. Trans posters constantly are met with apathy and dismissal in regards to their issues on this site, so much so that many of them avoid the threads completely.

I have seen many cases of this dismissal, where people will try to come up with some excuse to care as little as possible or question it, trans people will explain it to them, and then it's like it goes in one ear and out the other.

Deleted member 835 · Mar 24, 2018

ArrogantBastard said:
What? That has nothing to do with what I said at all.

Yes it is. You said trans people were a new to many cis genders. I said that doesn't mean they can't respect trans people just because they know fuck all about trans people. Instead many trans people are treated like shit just for being themselves

Deepwater · Mar 24, 2018

people here are "pro-trans" until it's a liberal/progressive fave fucking up and then it's purity tests and what not

Folks here have already deemed themselves non-transphobic yet they will argue up and down at trans folk on why something isn't transphobic. Or, if it is, why it isn't that serious

EvilChameleon · Mar 24, 2018

I think the OP is asking for people to be more than just pro-trans. Don't excuse transphobia just because your favorite author (Rowling) or comedian (Chapelle/Gervais) said something stupid. The Rowling thread for example is filled with people saying "well maybe she liked the post because of something else that was said in the article" etc.

nemoral · Mar 24, 2018

MiraculousSwidge said:
Improvement is impossible?

There's no doubt about that. I was just wondering if there are more inclusive gaming forums that Cream knows about that I don't. I tend to agree that our trans threads are awful, just as they were at GAF. I think a lot of that is largely because of folks that think of themselves as liberals but are actually centrists, which describes a bunch of people on this forum -- you know, the sort that's in favor of legalizing weed and probably treating women and LGBT people better so long as it doesn't cause too much of a disturbance, and is sort of in favor of black kids not getting killed, so long as they aren't late to work. So you also see a lot of people that are in favor of trans rights in theory, so long as those things don't disturb them in any fashion, or require their favorite comedians to consider the people they're joking about are, well, people.

I won't really discuss my opinion regarding moderation of those threads, as commentary on moderation should be handled via PM to moderators, but I definitely think it could improve.

Alexhex · Mar 24, 2018

Yeah like for real. People in the gervais thread finding his recemt show funny was mega gross

Jombie · Mar 24, 2018

I don't think you can say that about the majority of liberals here, those in Washington? Absolutely. Identity politics is still a scary subject for most dems; they're afraid to stand behind their ideology and the constituents they're supposed to defend. It's what's driven me away from the party.

Orayn · Mar 24, 2018

I'm gonna say the obvious answer is that many people who consider themselves progressive still have little to no understanding of intersectionality.

Hierophant · Mar 24, 2018

I see it as a very white liberal thing to do, trans people are great and all as long as they don't go anywhere near me or speak to me about their concerns at all because they "unsettle" me.

Cream · Mar 24, 2018

EvilChameleon said:
I think the OP is asking for people to be more than just pro-trans. Don't excuse transphobia just because your favorite author (Rowling) or comedian (Chapelle/Gervais) said something stupid. The Rowling thread for example is filled with people saying "well maybe she liked the post because of something else that was said in the article" etc.

Exactly.

Deleted member 225 · Mar 24, 2018

I support transgendered people and their rights, but I am definitely ignorant when it comes to a lot of things, so I can understand where the op, and other transgendered posters, are coming from.

ShortNasty · Mar 24, 2018

General Leia said:
As a trans woman and person I don't even bother going into some of these threads, like the J.K. Rowling or Chappelle ones because to me it feels like an exercise in futility. I can tell when it's gonna be whatever so I just leave to not get as annoyed.

I feel you. I had to straight up delete a few posts I was gonna make because they were just expletive-laden rants. There's a straight up "101" that got posted a few weeks ago, and all of fucking google to use before wading in and "asking questions". But I have anger issues, so there's that.

Mr. X · Mar 24, 2018

Some apathy, some ignorance (not malice) on the subject?

I personally have no experience on trans matters to share and I don't know enough to contribute so I read and try to learn from the posters.

I'm 100% with the fight for equality.

Why do so many liberals ability to care stop at trans people?

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