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The Academy Award Winning Marvel Cinematic Universe
- Thread starter Deleted member 1248
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- Status
Luke Cage showrunner wants to do a Heroes For Hire series:
https://www.cbr.com/heroes-hire-netflix-show-luke-cage-iron-fist/
Hopefully Netflix will be able to continue doing these shows even if Marvel is working on their own streaming service app.
Is there a Netflix MCU OT?
OP
OP
Let's see if they can improve on Danny a bit first. I like the actor, but the character writing isn't quite there yet.
Completely agree, which is why I would rather they do a Heroes for Hire series than an Iron Fist Season 2. He was the weakest of the 4 main characters by far and im pretty skeptical he can carry a show all by himself.
If they can get the right showrunner for his show it could be great, but I dont see Netflix putting in the effort to find someone who can pull it off. Would love to see a Bruce Lee esc show with Iron Fist.
Ok, wasnt sure if this was the right place to put that. I searched and this was all that came up. I swear we had a Netflix MCU OT but that must have been at the other place.
Namor would be awesome, we've discussed it in here maaany times.
Maybe in a Black Panther sequel or a F4 film.
The don't fully own the rights if I remember right so I suspect they wouldn't give him his own film but instead have him be in someone else's.
Maybe in a Black Panther sequel or a F4 film.
The don't fully own the rights if I remember right so I suspect they wouldn't give him his own film but instead have him be in someone else's.
OP
OP
It's gotta be a matter of time. He's the last major figure they haven't adapted aside from the ones on their way home.
Yeah hes technically the first mutant. Hes definitely tied up with the Fox stuff. I dont think he could be used to his potential without the F4, Susan especially. Having him fued with Black Panther though would be an awesome dynamic to see play out.
OP
OP
No, he's not at Fox. His deal was with Universal and it's more convoluted than the Hulk situation. They have distribution rights.
Same lol. Wonder how he ended up with Universal, that just seems super random.
Great post, and I completely agree. Can't wait to see how Tony's arc resolves itself in IW, particularly his lingering conflict with Steve. In fact, speaking of Steve, Ima do the same thing you did for him (because my lingering deadlines can apparently wait).
Captain America: The First Avenger
Cap begins in the First Avenger as someone who desperately wants to support his country. Apparently the only way society can offer him this is through using brute strength; something Steve lacks, and so is unable to participate in the wave of propaganda that sweeps WW2 America. He's excluded from the American Dream of defending one's country, as we can infer he's been excluded from most the things in his life. Despite deficiencies that border on physical disabilities, he manages to maintain a commendable, if stubborn commitment to fighting off "bullies", something that will define the rest of his arc in the MCU.
Despite later receiving the brute strength he so lacked before, it's ironically never the true source of his renown, what makes him special, or even initially that helpful to him. Where he was runt of the litter before, now he's a failed lab rat, and is shunned and treated with condemnation by the army. Despite having everything needed to be a commander of men, Steve will not be given handouts by the government, nor will he necessarily be granted respect. This also begins a lifelong distrust of authority. Steve will absolutely fight for authority if their vision of what's "right" aligns with his, but when the army command denies Bucky and his friends a rescue, he realises that whether it's the American army, S.H.I.E.L.D., or the U.N., people in positions of authority aren't necessarily the best ones to decide what's done with power. Had Cap not taken the strength he was bestowed into his own hands, Bucky and the rest of his squadron would be dead, and he'd have spent the rest of his short life in NY before Red Skull used the Tesseract to level it. This explains why Cap believes so strongly against the Accords. It's best left to those with power to decide what they do with those powers, and if they don't, the responsibility lies with them.
He believes in doing what he considers is the "right thing" at all costs, despite it costing him any semblance of a normal life in Peggy. Despite that crash into the Atlantic not being a permanent death, it is Steve consciously casting aside his former self and completely embracing the Captain America mantle. Like he says in Age of Ultron, Steve Rogers "went in the ice", and out comes Captain America. This is where we might get the Jesus imagery if this was a Zack Snyder film.
Oh and in the absence of any positive figure in his life, parental or otherwise, he idolises Bucky as everything he wants to be. Bucky is not only capable in ways he's not, but in being the only person who gives Steve the time of day showcases those qualities that will later make Captain America. Quite a few people want Buck to take up the shield, but it's worth recognising that Bucky was always the inspiration for what Steve does as Captain America. This stubborn dedication, along with Cap's aforementioned stubborness, will be both something we can commend and come to see as Steve's potential undoing.
The Avengers
The Avengers is Steve being thrust back into both the world in the 21st Century, and command. He's clearly the obvious choice to lead the Avengers, military experience and firm moral code in hand, but he's not nearly ready to do so. He's never really been challenged by members of his team before; Bucky et al followed him without question. In Stark, he's met with an adversary but also someone that can be a great ally in this new, scary world. By the end of the film we see Steve taking charge despite still floundering (with that suit... eep). Again, he works for Fury, but only on the understanding that it's for the greater good. He's not exactly at ease in 2012 Earth, but as aliens descend from a wormhole in the centre of the New York skyline, neither is anybody else on the planet.
Winter Soldier
If Steve didn't trust authority before... now he certainly doesn't. This film is actually all about trust, and how trust is always a risk. Trust can be a powerful thing; Nick Fury trusts Alexander Pierce and is punished for it. Steve trusts Black Widow and Falcon, at a substantial risk, and forges invaluable bonds because of it. But vigilance and mistrust are shown to be equally important; here Cap questions authority, as he did in TFA and The Avengers, but he's now truly shown what happens when an authority is allowed to develop unchecked and gain absolute power.
Steve's interactions with Bucky are the core of the film, and they represent again the power of trust; in this case, how Bucky can no longer be trusted as he once was, and how Steve's world continues to get messier by the day. Moreover, his plight to save Bucky is the first instance of Cap putting personal desire before the greater good, which we know will harm him later on. Though his mission to shut down Hydra and end Insight is a big drive for him, we see as an audience his desperate need to save the man who saved him on multiple occasions. He manages to shut down Project Insight, but again being almost too eager to sacrifice himself, submits to Bucky's attacks. Perhaps he thinks by Bucky completing his "mission" in killing him, and Hydra being gone, The Winter Soldier can begin to recover. He's not totally wrong - and yet, he very nearly loses his life in doing so. He again risks trust, in this case risking the trust that he can heal Bucky's mental scarring through sheer compassion.
We also have to consider the personal trauma Steve goes through here. The old remnants of his life fade away; his best friend and role model left a brainwashed husk that Steve can neither reach with reason or compassion, his two greatest weapons. A dementia-stricken Peggy serves as fate's cruel tease of a life he could have had. Peggy's own condition reflects his past life, a memory quickly fading out of relevance. Captain America isn't special anymore; he is one of many powered individuals. So, what's his place in this new world? A soldier? A government goon? An Avenger? And again, he repeatedly refuses Nat's playful attempts to get him to socialise and build a casual persona; his life is his work. Steve's new world is thrown into chaos as well, as is any semblance of order or regimen that went alongside it.
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Though Joss Whedon's delivery is a little heavy-handed, Cap's arc in this film is pretty straightforward. As well as being a man that ends conflict, Steve also relishes in taking responsibility and a role of authority. He ends conflicts and wars, but would find himself lost without one. There's no shortage of conflicts in this new scary world, but Steve finds himself pondering what he'd do without a war to fight. As the leader of the Avengers, he won't have to answer that existential quandary anytime soon.
Of course, with Cap now becoming a role of authority who's always questioned authority in the past, we're now left to wonder... who will question his decisions?
Civil War
I've seen many people claim that Steve is in the wrong in this film; I'd argue the whole point of the narrative is that there is no definitive answer. Civil War is, despite the "Avenger 2.5" jibes, very much a culmination of Steve's role in the MCU so far. If the Winter Soldier was about the power of trust, then Civil War is about the power of choice.
The Sokovia Accords represent many things to Steve, but he's seen a fair few twisted regimes in his time. Imagine if a man like Colonel Phillips was on that UN board. Or Alexander Pierce. Or even the Red Skull. To Steve, The Accords are the end of The Avengers as he's come to know it. In this atmosphere of upheaval and panic, he makes many rash decisions, many of them questionable. An audience sees again his returning fixation with redeeming Bucky turn a bad situation into an untenable one, with even Bucky himself question the lengths Steve is willing to go to in order to right a wrong from 70 years past. Some criticise Steve for dragging the other Avengers into his own conflict, but again, this is the power of a world where the Avengers are not restricted by the Accords. They can make decisions, even if it isn't always the best one for them.
But I think the best thing Civil War does is ultimately show us that, outside of the green flecks in the blue of his eyes, Steve is imperfect. He is not a chiselled Superman exempt from human flaw. His decisions, even if well intentioned, can be questioned. He breaks laws. He hurts his friends, both physically and emotionally. He lies, even if he believes that lie is for the greater good. Steve is a 2016 super-soldier with a 1945 mindset. He sees things in absolutes; control is control, friends are friends, and right is right. But things aren't that simple. Steve believes in the power of free choice, but needs to learn to question his own choices, and not stubbornly pursue them. Sometimes that stubborn pursuit can be fruitful; it rescues Bucky, it takes down Hydra (twice). It also destroys his friendship with Tony, and shatters The Avengers.
His morality and intentions are in tact though, and within those lie his relevance as Captain America. Steve will have to learn to pursue his moral intent in a new and better way if he is to regain the mantle, and rightfully possess the shield that he cast away.
Where next? Tony and Steve are estranged. Steve is now a Nomad, from his "family" in The Avengers, his country, and his iconography. I can only wonder how this wonderfully constructed arc will take the character next!
Sorry for the post, this is symptomatic of my growing obsession with Avengers Infinity War!
Top 5 MCU Films for me:
Winter Soldier
Thor Ragnarok
Civil War
Avengers 1 and Age of Ultron (tied for 4th, but leaning more towards AoU)
Guardians of the Galaxy
These are the films that I could rewatch over and over out of all the MCU films. Cap's arc has been the most enjoyable for me, even if I really dont like the first Cap film.
Winter Soldier
Thor Ragnarok
Civil War
Avengers 1 and Age of Ultron (tied for 4th, but leaning more towards AoU)
Guardians of the Galaxy
These are the films that I could rewatch over and over out of all the MCU films. Cap's arc has been the most enjoyable for me, even if I really dont like the first Cap film.
Great post, and I completely agree. Can't wait to see how Tony's arc resolves itself in IW, particularly his lingering conflict with Steve. In fact, speaking of Steve, Ima do the same thing you did for him (because my lingering deadlines can apparently wait).
Captain America: The First Avenger
Cap begins in the First Avenger as someone who desperately wants to support his country. Apparently the only way society can offer him this is through using brute strength; something Steve lacks, and so is unable to participate in the wave of propaganda that sweeps WW2 America. He's excluded from the American Dream of defending one's country, as we can infer he's been excluded from most the things in his life. Despite deficiencies that border on physical disabilities, he manages to maintain a commendable, if stubborn commitment to fighting off "bullies", something that will define the rest of his arc in the MCU.
Despite later receiving the brute strength he so lacked before, it's ironically never the true source of his renown, what makes him special, or even initially that helpful to him. Where he was runt of the litter before, now he's a failed lab rat, and is shunned and treated with condemnation by the army. Despite having everything needed to be a commander of men, Steve will not be given handouts by the government, nor will he necessarily be granted respect. This also begins a lifelong distrust of authority. Steve will absolutely fight for authority if their vision of what's "right" aligns with his, but when the army command denies Bucky and his friends a rescue, he realises that whether it's the American army, S.H.I.E.L.D., or the U.N., people in positions of authority aren't necessarily the best ones to decide what's done with power. Had Cap not taken the strength he was bestowed into his own hands, Bucky and the rest of his squadron would be dead, and he'd have spent the rest of his short life in NY before Red Skull used the Tesseract to level it. This explains why Cap believes so strongly against the Accords. It's best left to those with power to decide what they do with those powers, and if they don't, the responsibility lies with them.
He believes in doing what he considers is the "right thing" at all costs, despite it costing him any semblance of a normal life in Peggy. Despite that crash into the Atlantic not being a permanent death, it is Steve consciously casting aside his former self and completely embracing the Captain America mantle. Like he says in Age of Ultron, Steve Rogers "went in the ice", and out comes Captain America. This is where we might get the Jesus imagery if this was a Zack Snyder film.
Oh and in the absence of any positive figure in his life, parental or otherwise, he idolises Bucky as everything he wants to be. Bucky is not only capable in ways he's not, but in being the only person who gives Steve the time of day showcases those qualities that will later make Captain America. Quite a few people want Buck to take up the shield, but it's worth recognising that Bucky was always the inspiration for what Steve does as Captain America. This stubborn dedication, along with Cap's aforementioned stubborness, will be both something we can commend and come to see as Steve's potential undoing.
The Avengers
The Avengers is Steve being thrust back into both the world in the 21st Century, and command. He's clearly the obvious choice to lead the Avengers, military experience and firm moral code in hand, but he's not nearly ready to do so. He's never really been challenged by members of his team before; Bucky et al followed him without question. In Stark, he's met with an adversary but also someone that can be a great ally in this new, scary world. By the end of the film we see Steve taking charge despite still floundering (with that suit... eep). Again, he works for Fury, but only on the understanding that it's for the greater good. He's not exactly at ease in 2012 Earth, but as aliens descend from a wormhole in the centre of the New York skyline, neither is anybody else on the planet.
Winter Soldier
If Steve didn't trust authority before... now he certainly doesn't. This film is actually all about trust, and how trust is always a risk. Trust can be a powerful thing; Nick Fury trusts Alexander Pierce and is punished for it. Steve trusts Black Widow and Falcon, at a substantial risk, and forges invaluable bonds because of it. But vigilance and mistrust are shown to be equally important; here Cap questions authority, as he did in TFA and The Avengers, but he's now truly shown what happens when an authority is allowed to develop unchecked and gain absolute power.
Steve's interactions with Bucky are the core of the film, and they represent again the power of trust; in this case, how Bucky can no longer be trusted as he once was, and how Steve's world continues to get messier by the day. Moreover, his plight to save Bucky is the first instance of Cap putting personal desire before the greater good, which we know will harm him later on. Though his mission to shut down Hydra and end Insight is a big drive for him, we see as an audience his desperate need to save the man who saved him on multiple occasions. He manages to shut down Project Insight, but again being almost too eager to sacrifice himself, submits to Bucky's attacks. Perhaps he thinks by Bucky completing his "mission" in killing him, and Hydra being gone, The Winter Soldier can begin to recover. He's not totally wrong - and yet, he very nearly loses his life in doing so. He again risks trust, in this case risking the trust that he can heal Bucky's mental scarring through sheer compassion.
We also have to consider the personal trauma Steve goes through here. The old remnants of his life fade away; his best friend and role model left a brainwashed husk that Steve can neither reach with reason or compassion, his two greatest weapons. A dementia-stricken Peggy serves as fate's cruel tease of a life he could have had. Peggy's own condition reflects his past life, a memory quickly fading out of relevance. Captain America isn't special anymore; he is one of many powered individuals. So, what's his place in this new world? A soldier? A government goon? An Avenger? And again, he repeatedly refuses Nat's playful attempts to get him to socialise and build a casual persona; his life is his work. Steve's new world is thrown into chaos as well, as is any semblance of order or regimen that went alongside it.
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Though Joss Whedon's delivery is a little heavy-handed, Cap's arc in this film is pretty straightforward. As well as being a man that ends conflict, Steve also relishes in taking responsibility and a role of authority. He ends conflicts and wars, but would find himself lost without one. There's no shortage of conflicts in this new scary world, but Steve finds himself pondering what he'd do without a war to fight. As the leader of the Avengers, he won't have to answer that existential quandary anytime soon.
Of course, with Cap now becoming a role of authority who's always questioned authority in the past, we're now left to wonder... who will question his decisions?
Civil War
I've seen many people claim that Steve is in the wrong in this film; I'd argue the whole point of the narrative is that there is no definitive answer. Civil War is, despite the "Avenger 2.5" jibes, very much a culmination of Steve's role in the MCU so far. If the Winter Soldier was about the power of trust, then Civil War is about the power of choice.
The Sokovia Accords represent many things to Steve, but he's seen a fair few twisted regimes in his time. Imagine if a man like Colonel Phillips was on that UN board. Or Alexander Pierce. Or even the Red Skull. To Steve, The Accords are the end of The Avengers as he's come to know it. In this atmosphere of upheaval and panic, he makes many rash decisions, many of them questionable. An audience sees again his returning fixation with redeeming Bucky turn a bad situation into an untenable one, with even Bucky himself question the lengths Steve is willing to go to in order to right a wrong from 70 years past. Some criticise Steve for dragging the other Avengers into his own conflict, but again, this is the power of a world where the Avengers are not restricted by the Accords. They can make decisions, even if it isn't always the best one for them.
But I think the best thing Civil War does is ultimately show us that, outside of the green flecks in the blue of his eyes, Steve is imperfect. He is not a chiselled Superman exempt from human flaw. His decisions, even if well intentioned, can be questioned. He breaks laws. He hurts his friends, both physically and emotionally. He lies, even if he believes that lie is for the greater good. Steve is a 2016 super-soldier with a 1945 mindset. He sees things in absolutes; control is control, friends are friends, and right is right. But things aren't that simple. Steve believes in the power of free choice, but needs to learn to question his own choices, and not stubbornly pursue them. Sometimes that stubborn pursuit can be fruitful; it rescues Bucky, it takes down Hydra (twice). It also destroys his friendship with Tony, and shatters The Avengers.
His morality and intentions are in tact though, and within those lie his relevance as Captain America. Steve will have to learn to pursue his moral intent in a new and better way if he is to regain the mantle, and rightfully possess the shield that he cast away.
Where next? Tony and Steve are estranged. Steve is now a Nomad, from his "family" in The Avengers, his country, and his iconography. I can only wonder how this wonderfully constructed arc will take the character next!
Sorry for the post, this is symptomatic of my growing obsession with Avengers Infinity War!
This is the good shit.
God I love the MCU so much
Cap is the best, if only because he's what a lot of people aspire to be. He's a scrawny kid with a heart of gold at its core. Tony's an arrogant genius, who people delude themselves into thinking they are. He's basically Rick from Rick & Morty.
I adore Cap, but I'd argue against that interpretation of Tony. He's far more introspective than Rick, probably a little too introspective. He's become progressively less arrogant over the MCU until he's this cocky but stern and restrictive parental figure in Homecoming.
Where is it opening the 24th?
Is Thursday at 6pm the earliest to see it in the USA (other than premiere and reviews)?
In Denmark there's a preview screening on the 24th. Basically the entire movie but one day ahead of the premiere.
I never really noticed any Tony hate.
At least from what I've seen, it's typically people pointing out his extreme character flaws and others responding "why do you guys hate Tony?!"
I love Tony. I'm still gonna point out that he be fucking up, though.
I mean, maybe he takes it easy on him because that isn't what happened? Lol pretty sure Vulture was involved there.
But otherwise, I agree with this way of interpreting Tony's overall MCU arc so far.
If he meets his end in IW, I hope the Russos build on the work they did with him in CW and make it incredibly moving. He deserves more than a hero's end, but that may have to do.
OP
OP
He's a beautiful character. In an narrative way, not masturbatory Tumblr way.
Beautiful post just beautiful.Great post, and I completely agree. Can't wait to see how Tony's arc resolves itself in IW, particularly his lingering conflict with Steve. In fact, speaking of Steve, Ima do the same thing you did for him (because my lingering deadlines can apparently wait).
Captain America: The First Avenger
Cap begins in the First Avenger as someone who desperately wants to support his country. Apparently the only way society can offer him this is through using brute strength; something Steve lacks, and so is unable to participate in the wave of propaganda that sweeps WW2 America. He's excluded from the American Dream of defending one's country, as we can infer he's been excluded from most the things in his life. Despite deficiencies that border on physical disabilities, he manages to maintain a commendable, if stubborn commitment to fighting off "bullies", something that will define the rest of his arc in the MCU.
Despite later receiving the brute strength he so lacked before, it's ironically never the true source of his renown, what makes him special, or even initially that helpful to him. Where he was runt of the litter before, now he's a failed lab rat, and is shunned and treated with condemnation by the army. Despite having everything needed to be a commander of men, Steve will not be given handouts by the government, nor will he necessarily be granted respect. This also begins a lifelong distrust of authority. Steve will absolutely fight for authority if their vision of what's "right" aligns with his, but when the army command denies Bucky and his friends a rescue, he realises that whether it's the American army, S.H.I.E.L.D., or the U.N., people in positions of authority aren't necessarily the best ones to decide what's done with power. Had Cap not taken the strength he was bestowed into his own hands, Bucky and the rest of his squadron would be dead, and he'd have spent the rest of his short life in NY before Red Skull used the Tesseract to level it. This explains why Cap believes so strongly against the Accords. It's best left to those with power to decide what they do with those powers, and if they don't, the responsibility lies with them.
He believes in doing what he considers is the "right thing" at all costs, despite it costing him any semblance of a normal life in Peggy. Despite that crash into the Atlantic not being a permanent death, it is Steve consciously casting aside his former self and completely embracing the Captain America mantle. Like he says in Age of Ultron, Steve Rogers "went in the ice", and out comes Captain America. This is where we might get the Jesus imagery if this was a Zack Snyder film.
Oh and in the absence of any positive figure in his life, parental or otherwise, he idolises Bucky as everything he wants to be. Bucky is not only capable in ways he's not, but in being the only person who gives Steve the time of day showcases those qualities that will later make Captain America. Quite a few people want Buck to take up the shield, but it's worth recognising that Bucky was always the inspiration for what Steve does as Captain America. This stubborn dedication, along with Cap's aforementioned stubborness, will be both something we can commend and come to see as Steve's potential undoing.
The Avengers
The Avengers is Steve being thrust back into both the world in the 21st Century, and command. He's clearly the obvious choice to lead the Avengers, military experience and firm moral code in hand, but he's not nearly ready to do so. He's never really been challenged by members of his team before; Bucky et al followed him without question. In Stark, he's met with an adversary but also someone that can be a great ally in this new, scary world. By the end of the film we see Steve taking charge despite still floundering (with that suit... eep). Again, he works for Fury, but only on the understanding that it's for the greater good. He's not exactly at ease in 2012 Earth, but as aliens descend from a wormhole in the centre of the New York skyline, neither is anybody else on the planet.
Winter Soldier
If Steve didn't trust authority before... now he certainly doesn't. This film is actually all about trust, and how trust is always a risk. Trust can be a powerful thing; Nick Fury trusts Alexander Pierce and is punished for it. Steve trusts Black Widow and Falcon, at a substantial risk, and forges invaluable bonds because of it. But vigilance and mistrust are shown to be equally important; here Cap questions authority, as he did in TFA and The Avengers, but he's now truly shown what happens when an authority is allowed to develop unchecked and gain absolute power.
Steve's interactions with Bucky are the core of the film, and they represent again the power of trust; in this case, how Bucky can no longer be trusted as he once was, and how Steve's world continues to get messier by the day. Moreover, his plight to save Bucky is the first instance of Cap putting personal desire before the greater good, which we know will harm him later on. Though his mission to shut down Hydra and end Insight is a big drive for him, we see as an audience his desperate need to save the man who saved him on multiple occasions. He manages to shut down Project Insight, but again being almost too eager to sacrifice himself, submits to Bucky's attacks. Perhaps he thinks by Bucky completing his "mission" in killing him, and Hydra being gone, The Winter Soldier can begin to recover. He's not totally wrong - and yet, he very nearly loses his life in doing so. He again risks trust, in this case risking the trust that he can heal Bucky's mental scarring through sheer compassion.
We also have to consider the personal trauma Steve goes through here. The old remnants of his life fade away; his best friend and role model left a brainwashed husk that Steve can neither reach with reason or compassion, his two greatest weapons. A dementia-stricken Peggy serves as fate's cruel tease of a life he could have had. Peggy's own condition reflects his past life, a memory quickly fading out of relevance. Captain America isn't special anymore; he is one of many powered individuals. So, what's his place in this new world? A soldier? A government goon? An Avenger? And again, he repeatedly refuses Nat's playful attempts to get him to socialise and build a casual persona; his life is his work. Steve's new world is thrown into chaos as well, as is any semblance of order or regimen that went alongside it.
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Though Joss Whedon's delivery is a little heavy-handed, Cap's arc in this film is pretty straightforward. As well as being a man that ends conflict, Steve also relishes in taking responsibility and a role of authority. He ends conflicts and wars, but would find himself lost without one. There's no shortage of conflicts in this new scary world, but Steve finds himself pondering what he'd do without a war to fight. As the leader of the Avengers, he won't have to answer that existential quandary anytime soon.
Of course, with Cap now becoming a role of authority who's always questioned authority in the past, we're now left to wonder... who will question his decisions?
Civil War
I've seen many people claim that Steve is in the wrong in this film; I'd argue the whole point of the narrative is that there is no definitive answer. Civil War is, despite the "Avenger 2.5" jibes, very much a culmination of Steve's role in the MCU so far. If the Winter Soldier was about the power of trust, then Civil War is about the power of choice.
The Sokovia Accords represent many things to Steve, but he's seen a fair few twisted regimes in his time. Imagine if a man like Colonel Phillips was on that UN board. Or Alexander Pierce. Or even the Red Skull. To Steve, The Accords are the end of The Avengers as he's come to know it. In this atmosphere of upheaval and panic, he makes many rash decisions, many of them questionable. An audience sees again his returning fixation with redeeming Bucky turn a bad situation into an untenable one, with even Bucky himself question the lengths Steve is willing to go to in order to right a wrong from 70 years past. Some criticise Steve for dragging the other Avengers into his own conflict, but again, this is the power of a world where the Avengers are not restricted by the Accords. They can make decisions, even if it isn't always the best one for them.
But I think the best thing Civil War does is ultimately show us that, outside of the green flecks in the blue of his eyes, Steve is imperfect. He is not a chiselled Superman exempt from human flaw. His decisions, even if well intentioned, can be questioned. He breaks laws. He hurts his friends, both physically and emotionally. He lies, even if he believes that lie is for the greater good. Steve is a 2016 super-soldier with a 1945 mindset. He sees things in absolutes; control is control, friends are friends, and right is right. But things aren't that simple. Steve believes in the power of free choice, but needs to learn to question his own choices, and not stubbornly pursue them. Sometimes that stubborn pursuit can be fruitful; it rescues Bucky, it takes down Hydra (twice). It also destroys his friendship with Tony, and shatters The Avengers.
His morality and intentions are in tact though, and within those lie his relevance as Captain America. Steve will have to learn to pursue his moral intent in a new and better way if he is to regain the mantle, and rightfully possess the shield that he cast away.
Where next? Tony and Steve are estranged. Steve is now a Nomad, from his "family" in The Avengers, his country, and his iconography. I can only wonder how this wonderfully constructed arc will take the character next!
Sorry for the post, this is symptomatic of my growing obsession with Avengers Infinity War!
Peter was 100 in the right in homecomings ending tho. He even saved vulture from himself.
OP
OP
Would it piss you off if Tony and Steve don't reunite and one of them dies? Like how Star Wars fans flipped out that Luke didn't see Han before he died.
Last edited:
OP
OP
Not if one of them sticks around after. Watching characters deal with unresolved shit always has the potential to be interesting.
A little late to the conversation but here is an interesting bit of info I discovered recently. I made a "Avenger's Infinity War Deadpool" for my family (we are all nerds) and my work colleagues. I listed all the characters that will appear in Infinity War and everyone cast their votes on who is going to die then put it in a ballot box. (Which i've Been meaning to post on here for a little fun discussion/bragging rights for the future) but in the process of having everyone filling out their ballots and discussing it i've Learned that probably 80-90% of people fall in the range of indifferent towards captain America to straight up not liking him at all. Most said they wouldn't care at all if he died and I was legit shocked. Cap is probably my second favorite avenger after Thor and I can't understand how people don't Just absolutely love him and Chris Evans performance as him. (Team Cap forever)
I genuinely think it'll end up being the other way around.I'd lose my shit if this happens:
That's a possibility too.
With this two movies we have so many options and possible endings that is really hard to speculate. What a ride the MCU has been. What a ride.
Sorry for what? I thank you for this post!Great post, and I completely agree. Can't wait to see how Tony's arc resolves itself in IW, particularly his lingering conflict with Steve. In fact, speaking of Steve, Ima do the same thing you did for him (because my lingering deadlines can apparently wait).
Captain America: The First Avenger
Cap begins in the First Avenger as someone who desperately wants to support his country. Apparently the only way society can offer him this is through using brute strength; something Steve lacks, and so is unable to participate in the wave of propaganda that sweeps WW2 America. He's excluded from the American Dream of defending one's country, as we can infer he's been excluded from most the things in his life. Despite deficiencies that border on physical disabilities, he manages to maintain a commendable, if stubborn commitment to fighting off "bullies", something that will define the rest of his arc in the MCU.
Despite later receiving the brute strength he so lacked before, it's ironically never the true source of his renown, what makes him special, or even initially that helpful to him. Where he was runt of the litter before, now he's a failed lab rat, and is shunned and treated with condemnation by the army. Despite having everything needed to be a commander of men, Steve will not be given handouts by the government, nor will he necessarily be granted respect. This also begins a lifelong distrust of authority. Steve will absolutely fight for authority if their vision of what's "right" aligns with his, but when the army command denies Bucky and his friends a rescue, he realises that whether it's the American army, S.H.I.E.L.D., or the U.N., people in positions of authority aren't necessarily the best ones to decide what's done with power. Had Cap not taken the strength he was bestowed into his own hands, Bucky and the rest of his squadron would be dead, and he'd have spent the rest of his short life in NY before Red Skull used the Tesseract to level it. This explains why Cap believes so strongly against the Accords. It's best left to those with power to decide what they do with those powers, and if they don't, the responsibility lies with them.
He believes in doing what he considers is the "right thing" at all costs, despite it costing him any semblance of a normal life in Peggy. Despite that crash into the Atlantic not being a permanent death, it is Steve consciously casting aside his former self and completely embracing the Captain America mantle. Like he says in Age of Ultron, Steve Rogers "went in the ice", and out comes Captain America. This is where we might get the Jesus imagery if this was a Zack Snyder film.
Oh and in the absence of any positive figure in his life, parental or otherwise, he idolises Bucky as everything he wants to be. Bucky is not only capable in ways he's not, but in being the only person who gives Steve the time of day showcases those qualities that will later make Captain America. Quite a few people want Buck to take up the shield, but it's worth recognising that Bucky was always the inspiration for what Steve does as Captain America. This stubborn dedication, along with Cap's aforementioned stubborness, will be both something we can commend and come to see as Steve's potential undoing.
The Avengers
The Avengers is Steve being thrust back into both the world in the 21st Century, and command. He's clearly the obvious choice to lead the Avengers, military experience and firm moral code in hand, but he's not nearly ready to do so. He's never really been challenged by members of his team before; Bucky et al followed him without question. In Stark, he's met with an adversary but also someone that can be a great ally in this new, scary world. By the end of the film we see Steve taking charge despite still floundering (with that suit... eep). Again, he works for Fury, but only on the understanding that it's for the greater good. He's not exactly at ease in 2012 Earth, but as aliens descend from a wormhole in the centre of the New York skyline, neither is anybody else on the planet.
Winter Soldier
If Steve didn't trust authority before... now he certainly doesn't. This film is actually all about trust, and how trust is always a risk. Trust can be a powerful thing; Nick Fury trusts Alexander Pierce and is punished for it. Steve trusts Black Widow and Falcon, at a substantial risk, and forges invaluable bonds because of it. But vigilance and mistrust are shown to be equally important; here Cap questions authority, as he did in TFA and The Avengers, but he's now truly shown what happens when an authority is allowed to develop unchecked and gain absolute power.
Steve's interactions with Bucky are the core of the film, and they represent again the power of trust; in this case, how Bucky can no longer be trusted as he once was, and how Steve's world continues to get messier by the day. Moreover, his plight to save Bucky is the first instance of Cap putting personal desire before the greater good, which we know will harm him later on. Though his mission to shut down Hydra and end Insight is a big drive for him, we see as an audience his desperate need to save the man who saved him on multiple occasions. He manages to shut down Project Insight, but again being almost too eager to sacrifice himself, submits to Bucky's attacks. Perhaps he thinks by Bucky completing his "mission" in killing him, and Hydra being gone, The Winter Soldier can begin to recover. He's not totally wrong - and yet, he very nearly loses his life in doing so. He again risks trust, in this case risking the trust that he can heal Bucky's mental scarring through sheer compassion.
We also have to consider the personal trauma Steve goes through here. The old remnants of his life fade away; his best friend and role model left a brainwashed husk that Steve can neither reach with reason or compassion, his two greatest weapons. A dementia-stricken Peggy serves as fate's cruel tease of a life he could have had. Peggy's own condition reflects his past life, a memory quickly fading out of relevance. Captain America isn't special anymore; he is one of many powered individuals. So, what's his place in this new world? A soldier? A government goon? An Avenger? And again, he repeatedly refuses Nat's playful attempts to get him to socialise and build a casual persona; his life is his work. Steve's new world is thrown into chaos as well, as is any semblance of order or regimen that went alongside it.
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Though Joss Whedon's delivery is a little heavy-handed, Cap's arc in this film is pretty straightforward. As well as being a man that ends conflict, Steve also relishes in taking responsibility and a role of authority. He ends conflicts and wars, but would find himself lost without one. There's no shortage of conflicts in this new scary world, but Steve finds himself pondering what he'd do without a war to fight. As the leader of the Avengers, he won't have to answer that existential quandary anytime soon.
Of course, with Cap now becoming a role of authority who's always questioned authority in the past, we're now left to wonder... who will question his decisions?
Civil War
I've seen many people claim that Steve is in the wrong in this film; I'd argue the whole point of the narrative is that there is no definitive answer. Civil War is, despite the "Avenger 2.5" jibes, very much a culmination of Steve's role in the MCU so far. If the Winter Soldier was about the power of trust, then Civil War is about the power of choice.
The Sokovia Accords represent many things to Steve, but he's seen a fair few twisted regimes in his time. Imagine if a man like Colonel Phillips was on that UN board. Or Alexander Pierce. Or even the Red Skull. To Steve, The Accords are the end of The Avengers as he's come to know it. In this atmosphere of upheaval and panic, he makes many rash decisions, many of them questionable. An audience sees again his returning fixation with redeeming Bucky turn a bad situation into an untenable one, with even Bucky himself question the lengths Steve is willing to go to in order to right a wrong from 70 years past. Some criticise Steve for dragging the other Avengers into his own conflict, but again, this is the power of a world where the Avengers are not restricted by the Accords. They can make decisions, even if it isn't always the best one for them.
But I think the best thing Civil War does is ultimately show us that, outside of the green flecks in the blue of his eyes, Steve is imperfect. He is not a chiselled Superman exempt from human flaw. His decisions, even if well intentioned, can be questioned. He breaks laws. He hurts his friends, both physically and emotionally. He lies, even if he believes that lie is for the greater good. Steve is a 2016 super-soldier with a 1945 mindset. He sees things in absolutes; control is control, friends are friends, and right is right. But things aren't that simple. Steve believes in the power of free choice, but needs to learn to question his own choices, and not stubbornly pursue them. Sometimes that stubborn pursuit can be fruitful; it rescues Bucky, it takes down Hydra (twice). It also destroys his friendship with Tony, and shatters The Avengers.
His morality and intentions are in tact though, and within those lie his relevance as Captain America. Steve will have to learn to pursue his moral intent in a new and better way if he is to regain the mantle, and rightfully possess the shield that he cast away.
Where next? Tony and Steve are estranged. Steve is now a Nomad, from his "family" in The Avengers, his country, and his iconography. I can only wonder how this wonderfully constructed arc will take the character next!
Sorry for the post, this is symptomatic of my growing obsession with Avengers Infinity War!
Deep into my rewatch, just got a couple more to go. Surprisingly the movies are way more connected than I realized as I watched when they came out.
Watching them chronologically, It's become like binging a show with long episodes.
Couple things I noticed:
-Everyone should rewatch GotG 1 prior to IW, it's practically a prequel.
- Starks storyline through IM trilogy+Avengers+Civil War+Homecoming is actually kind of tragic and has made me more sympathetic towards his views.
- Black Widow, Hulk, Bucky, Loki have so much development over the span of their appearances.
- Thanos and the stones have tons of backstory already, they've planted a shitload of seeds preparing for IW.
- Ant-Man felt so disconnected from the MCU when I first watched, but it actually builds on the universe a lot, Pym particularly. Also has more set up for Civil War than I remembered.
- Civil War is a borderline masterpiece when combined with the movies that preceded it.
Watching them chronologically, It's become like binging a show with long episodes.
Couple things I noticed:
-Everyone should rewatch GotG 1 prior to IW, it's practically a prequel.
- Starks storyline through IM trilogy+Avengers+Civil War+Homecoming is actually kind of tragic and has made me more sympathetic towards his views.
- Black Widow, Hulk, Bucky, Loki have so much development over the span of their appearances.
- Thanos and the stones have tons of backstory already, they've planted a shitload of seeds preparing for IW.
- Ant-Man felt so disconnected from the MCU when I first watched, but it actually builds on the universe a lot, Pym particularly. Also has more set up for Civil War than I remembered.
- Civil War is a borderline masterpiece when combined with the movies that preceded it.
Stuff like this is why I hope for an Infinity Gauntlet/Stone collection with all movies up to the end of Phase 3.
Gives people a chance to rewatch them in order like one long show with long episodes or something lol.
Thanks who gave me the Vudu link for Iron man. Vudu gives you your first rental for only $1 so that was really great! Iron Man 1 is still so good.
Great post, and I completely agree. Can't wait to see how Tony's arc resolves itself in IW, particularly his lingering conflict with Steve. In fact, speaking of Steve, Ima do the same thing you did for him (because my lingering deadlines can apparently wait).
Captain America: The First Avenger
Cap begins in the First Avenger as someone who desperately wants to support his country. Apparently the only way society can offer him this is through using brute strength; something Steve lacks, and so is unable to participate in the wave of propaganda that sweeps WW2 America. He's excluded from the American Dream of defending one's country, as we can infer he's been excluded from most the things in his life. Despite deficiencies that border on physical disabilities, he manages to maintain a commendable, if stubborn commitment to fighting off "bullies", something that will define the rest of his arc in the MCU.
Despite later receiving the brute strength he so lacked before, it's ironically never the true source of his renown, what makes him special, or even initially that helpful to him. Where he was runt of the litter before, now he's a failed lab rat, and is shunned and treated with condemnation by the army. Despite having everything needed to be a commander of men, Steve will not be given handouts by the government, nor will he necessarily be granted respect. This also begins a lifelong distrust of authority. Steve will absolutely fight for authority if their vision of what's "right" aligns with his, but when the army command denies Bucky and his friends a rescue, he realises that whether it's the American army, S.H.I.E.L.D., or the U.N., people in positions of authority aren't necessarily the best ones to decide what's done with power. Had Cap not taken the strength he was bestowed into his own hands, Bucky and the rest of his squadron would be dead, and he'd have spent the rest of his short life in NY before Red Skull used the Tesseract to level it. This explains why Cap believes so strongly against the Accords. It's best left to those with power to decide what they do with those powers, and if they don't, the responsibility lies with them.
He believes in doing what he considers is the "right thing" at all costs, despite it costing him any semblance of a normal life in Peggy. Despite that crash into the Atlantic not being a permanent death, it is Steve consciously casting aside his former self and completely embracing the Captain America mantle. Like he says in Age of Ultron, Steve Rogers "went in the ice", and out comes Captain America. This is where we might get the Jesus imagery if this was a Zack Snyder film.
Oh and in the absence of any positive figure in his life, parental or otherwise, he idolises Bucky as everything he wants to be. Bucky is not only capable in ways he's not, but in being the only person who gives Steve the time of day showcases those qualities that will later make Captain America. Quite a few people want Buck to take up the shield, but it's worth recognising that Bucky was always the inspiration for what Steve does as Captain America. This stubborn dedication, along with Cap's aforementioned stubborness, will be both something we can commend and come to see as Steve's potential undoing.
The Avengers
The Avengers is Steve being thrust back into both the world in the 21st Century, and command. He's clearly the obvious choice to lead the Avengers, military experience and firm moral code in hand, but he's not nearly ready to do so. He's never really been challenged by members of his team before; Bucky et al followed him without question. In Stark, he's met with an adversary but also someone that can be a great ally in this new, scary world. By the end of the film we see Steve taking charge despite still floundering (with that suit... eep). Again, he works for Fury, but only on the understanding that it's for the greater good. He's not exactly at ease in 2012 Earth, but as aliens descend from a wormhole in the centre of the New York skyline, neither is anybody else on the planet.
Winter Soldier
If Steve didn't trust authority before... now he certainly doesn't. This film is actually all about trust, and how trust is always a risk. Trust can be a powerful thing; Nick Fury trusts Alexander Pierce and is punished for it. Steve trusts Black Widow and Falcon, at a substantial risk, and forges invaluable bonds because of it. But vigilance and mistrust are shown to be equally important; here Cap questions authority, as he did in TFA and The Avengers, but he's now truly shown what happens when an authority is allowed to develop unchecked and gain absolute power.
Steve's interactions with Bucky are the core of the film, and they represent again the power of trust; in this case, how Bucky can no longer be trusted as he once was, and how Steve's world continues to get messier by the day. Moreover, his plight to save Bucky is the first instance of Cap putting personal desire before the greater good, which we know will harm him later on. Though his mission to shut down Hydra and end Insight is a big drive for him, we see as an audience his desperate need to save the man who saved him on multiple occasions. He manages to shut down Project Insight, but again being almost too eager to sacrifice himself, submits to Bucky's attacks. Perhaps he thinks by Bucky completing his "mission" in killing him, and Hydra being gone, The Winter Soldier can begin to recover. He's not totally wrong - and yet, he very nearly loses his life in doing so. He again risks trust, in this case risking the trust that he can heal Bucky's mental scarring through sheer compassion.
We also have to consider the personal trauma Steve goes through here. The old remnants of his life fade away; his best friend and role model left a brainwashed husk that Steve can neither reach with reason or compassion, his two greatest weapons. A dementia-stricken Peggy serves as fate's cruel tease of a life he could have had. Peggy's own condition reflects his past life, a memory quickly fading out of relevance. Captain America isn't special anymore; he is one of many powered individuals. So, what's his place in this new world? A soldier? A government goon? An Avenger? And again, he repeatedly refuses Nat's playful attempts to get him to socialise and build a casual persona; his life is his work. Steve's new world is thrown into chaos as well, as is any semblance of order or regimen that went alongside it.
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Though Joss Whedon's delivery is a little heavy-handed, Cap's arc in this film is pretty straightforward. As well as being a man that ends conflict, Steve also relishes in taking responsibility and a role of authority. He ends conflicts and wars, but would find himself lost without one. There's no shortage of conflicts in this new scary world, but Steve finds himself pondering what he'd do without a war to fight. As the leader of the Avengers, he won't have to answer that existential quandary anytime soon.
Of course, with Cap now becoming a role of authority who's always questioned authority in the past, we're now left to wonder... who will question his decisions?
Civil War
I've seen many people claim that Steve is in the wrong in this film; I'd argue the whole point of the narrative is that there is no definitive answer. Civil War is, despite the "Avenger 2.5" jibes, very much a culmination of Steve's role in the MCU so far. If the Winter Soldier was about the power of trust, then Civil War is about the power of choice.
The Sokovia Accords represent many things to Steve, but he's seen a fair few twisted regimes in his time. Imagine if a man like Colonel Phillips was on that UN board. Or Alexander Pierce. Or even the Red Skull. To Steve, The Accords are the end of The Avengers as he's come to know it. In this atmosphere of upheaval and panic, he makes many rash decisions, many of them questionable. An audience sees again his returning fixation with redeeming Bucky turn a bad situation into an untenable one, with even Bucky himself question the lengths Steve is willing to go to in order to right a wrong from 70 years past. Some criticise Steve for dragging the other Avengers into his own conflict, but again, this is the power of a world where the Avengers are not restricted by the Accords. They can make decisions, even if it isn't always the best one for them.
But I think the best thing Civil War does is ultimately show us that, outside of the green flecks in the blue of his eyes, Steve is imperfect. He is not a chiselled Superman exempt from human flaw. His decisions, even if well intentioned, can be questioned. He breaks laws. He hurts his friends, both physically and emotionally. He lies, even if he believes that lie is for the greater good. Steve is a 2016 super-soldier with a 1945 mindset. He sees things in absolutes; control is control, friends are friends, and right is right. But things aren't that simple. Steve believes in the power of free choice, but needs to learn to question his own choices, and not stubbornly pursue them. Sometimes that stubborn pursuit can be fruitful; it rescues Bucky, it takes down Hydra (twice). It also destroys his friendship with Tony, and shatters The Avengers.
His morality and intentions are in tact though, and within those lie his relevance as Captain America. Steve will have to learn to pursue his moral intent in a new and better way if he is to regain the mantle, and rightfully possess the shield that he cast away.
Where next? Tony and Steve are estranged. Steve is now a Nomad, from his "family" in The Avengers, his country, and his iconography. I can only wonder how this wonderfully constructed arc will take the character next!
Sorry for the post, this is symptomatic of my growing obsession with Avengers Infinity War!
These posts are why I love the MCU.
You know, I watched Civil War the other day for the second time and what stuck out to me was.
If Tony hadn't treated Scarlet Witch the way he did, wanting to keep her locked (with Vision keeping an eye on her) and that came out around the time Steve was giving in and about to sign while telling Tony "I want there to be safeguards" (or something like that, trying to recall this from memory) then he finds out about that and decides "Screw this" more or less.
I don't know if it would change much since signing it means nothing if he can't be taken to court or arrested (by going into hiding which he pretty much does at the end of the film)
but just a thought I had after watching it.
If Tony hadn't treated Scarlet Witch the way he did, wanting to keep her locked (with Vision keeping an eye on her) and that came out around the time Steve was giving in and about to sign while telling Tony "I want there to be safeguards" (or something like that, trying to recall this from memory) then he finds out about that and decides "Screw this" more or less.
I don't know if it would change much since signing it means nothing if he can't be taken to court or arrested (by going into hiding which he pretty much does at the end of the film)
but just a thought I had after watching it.
Finished rewatching Ultron. I completely forgot Ulysses Klaue is in this, and this is where he loses that arm! The amount of little bits of continuity they manage to keep coherent through a decade and a whole crew of different directors, never mind that all the characters always feel in character with logical growth across all these movies is insanely impressive.
I would kinda like that if solely to finally shut up the people who entirely misread the ending of Civil War as Tony smiling.
- Status