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Cain

Guest
Not trying to derail the thread, but no. Alderaan was a civilian target destroyed out of spite. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, two cities critical to the Japanese war effort, were bombed to force the Kokutai to surrender, and while it cost civilian lives, it prevented what would have been the utter decimation of the Japanese continent and it's people in a horrible land war, which was next on the docket.
Wow. So why not nuke Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq? :(

Yeah it shortened the war but japan was already beaten. And maybe, just maybe, detonating a nuke of the coast of japan would have had the same effect without the burnshadows of children...

Sorry for the derail >< ill see myself out :P
 

RedStep

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,679
It's not, and nowhere does the OP claim playing as the bad guys is inherently, 100% problematic no matter waht.

That could be the case. The OP is attempting to make the case that the game does not do this, and it's in no way interesting or nuanced or anything, which is what they're concerned by--that the game doesn't do anything with it.

OP doesn't argue otherwise; the problem ain't the concept, but the execution.

We all very clearly understand the OP (who has repeated these points over and over), do you have a personal opinion on the matter?

I personally played it last night (well, the entire 3 levels available), and it was absolutely fine. Things like insta-fail stealth did not exist, the levels were fine, and the rhetoric was well below what you'd see as the "good guys" in any war game. This whole argument is nonsense.
 

ironcreed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
804
I personally played it last night (well, the entire 3 levels available), and it was absolutely fine. Things like insta-fail stealth did not exist, the levels were fine, and the rhetoric was well below what you'd see as the "good guys" in any war game. This whole argument is nonsense.

Sounds good.
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,649
A mountain in the US
I'm starting to get the feeling that this adopted member is a troll. Very odd take on Star Wars lore in general. I think most people don't equate the empire with Nazis at all.
 

MagitekDad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
574
Wow. So why not nuke Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq? :(

Yeah it shortened the war but japan was already beaten. And maybe, just maybe, detonating a nuke of the coast of japan would have had the same effect without the burnshadows of children...

Sorry for the derail >< ill see myself out :P

You're completely missing the point. Japan was not beaten. Imperial Japan was prepared to shove a weapon into the hands of every man, woman, and child to fight to the death against the US-Soviet invasion that was being prepped, which would have cost millions of lives instead of hundreds of thousands. Sounds dark, right? It is, but that's the reality of the choice the Allies were presented with. Having been involved in two, I can assure you there are no easy choices in war, only bad ones and worse ones.

Anyway, I digress.
 

GinoFelino

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,234
Regarding the 'Please don't argue the Empire = Space Nazis' line in the OP
Well okay then. Did you just make this thread wanting everyone to agree with you?
Since so many are rubbed the wrong way by this:

No, that was just a tongue in cheek way of asking not to sidetrack the point I was making by getting into a discussion about whether the Empire can be equated to Space Nazis.

I wrongly assumed that few people would object to equating the Empire with the Nazis, or at least for a sake of this discussion. I understand the differences, but was asking for people to also accept the similarities in the context of the point I was making.
 

dreamcast

Member
Oct 27, 2017
520
UMM

The rebels destroying the stability of the empire and the people that live there is a major theme of the expanded star wars universes

Exactly. This isn't a surprise at all. Each side sees the other as evil and the bad guy. If anything, the expanded universe has basically said both sides are wrong for the things they do. I've a feeling this is going to play right into Luke's story in The Last Jedi.
 

ironcreed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
804
I'm starting to get the feeling that this adopted member is a troll. Very odd take on Star Wars lore in general. I think most people don't equate the empire with Nazis at all.

Most don't or Star Wars would not be the phenomenon that it is. But in today's outrage culture nothing should come as a surprise. Somebody, somewhere had to be offended by it and of course equate it to The Nazis, lol.
 

Xenon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,266
Wow. So why not nuke Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq? :(

Yeah it shortened the war but japan was already beaten. And maybe, just maybe, detonating a nuke of the coast of japan would have had the same effect without the burnshadows of children...

Sorry for the derail >< ill see myself out :P


https://www.nationalww2museum.org/s.../research-starters-worldwide-deaths-world-war

Go to this site and look at the civilian casualties suffered in China by the hands of the Japanese. I don't think maybes were worth the risk.
 

GinoFelino

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,234
Most don't or Star Wars would not be the phenomenon that it is. But in today's outrage culture nothing should come as a surprise. Somebody, somewhere had to be offended by it and of course equate it to The Nazis, lol.
Why would the Empire being equated to Space Nazis hinder Star Wars's success in any way?
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
I'm starting to get the feeling that this adopted member is a troll. Very odd take on Star Wars lore in general. I think most people don't equate the empire with Nazis at all.

I think it's weirder how people vehemently reject the notion when a lot of the imagery and story is clearly at least inspired by Nazi Germany and people that worked on the franchise have openly stated so.
 

ironcreed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
804
Exactly. This isn't a surprise at all. Each side sees the other as evil and the bad guy. If anything, the expanded universe has basically said both sides are wrong for the things they do. I've a feeling this is going to play right into Luke's story in The Last Jedi.

"Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you are to become a complete and wise leader you must embrace a larger view of the Force."

Dat grey area is the story, folks. Palpatine was actually right in this sense. But in the ultimate twist of fate and again in his own words:

"It's ironic. He could save others from death. But not himself."

In this context, his leaning to the extreme of the dark side is what ultimately led to his demise. The true source is neither light or dark, but both. Like nature itself. That is where a certain 'new character' comes in.
 

orthodoxy1095

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,453
UMM

The rebels destroying the stability of the empire and the people that live there is a major theme of the expanded star wars universe

Also...picture is of the first order..not the empire...you obviously don't know alot about star wars
It's actually pretty modern and reminiscent of Western nations "stabilizing" but really destroying more of the Middle East.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
I want to make a thread about Battlefront 2's, in my opinion, insanely misguided singleplayer campaign. Forget the fact it starts with a goddamn insta-fail stealth bit, I'd like to talk about tone and the campaign's angle.

The first mission does not contain instant-fail stealth. And the stealth itself is ridiculously easy.

I'm sure the game will pull the protagonist over to the light side eventually, but for now...what the hell? Where Wolfenstein is scoring points with their marketing and topical treatment of extreme right-wing views, EA and Battlefront seem to be completely tone-deaf. It's wholly uncomfortable playing as, essentially, fully converted Space Nazis in this thing.

Being uncomfortable is such a subjective and ultimately nebulous terms as to be largely meaningless. Plenty of things make plenty of people uncomfortable. That's not a critique, that's a vague, poorly-defined reaction. It's evidence of nothing. Also, there's nothing tone deaf about allowing you to play as a fictional operative in a fictional organization that operates in a fictional galaxy. The Empire may be largely predicated on the Nazis but they are hardly a 1:1 analog. By contrast, Wolfenstein, while fiction, is extrapolating that fiction on ACTUAL Nazis. It is utterly pointless to compare the two games and their respective universes.

Now, any topic can be perfectly fine if done well. A comedy about Hitler, a drama about a neo-nazi, or a game where you play as Vader's badass lackey. There's room for all of that. I imagine many of you think this campaign will be refreshing, because it allows you to cut down those goody two shoes Rebels. But BF II doesn't make it feel satisfying at all. There's no interesting or enlightening angle to any of this. No new insights or fresh takes. All the game has presented in the first two hours is 'Space Nazis are just like the Rebels! Many sides!' Who the fuck asked for that? Does anyone want that from a Star Wars campaign?

Even if you had a cogent point with your initial postulation, the highlighted is precisely why few of us would ever take your arguments seriously. You've played a very small amount of the campaign yet have already attempted to state it has nothing new or interesting to say without knowing where it goes. I specifically warned you about this in the other thread and cautioned you to be a bit more methodical before attacking this game but instead, you basically wrote this churlish, vulgarly premature topic, berating something you have't even fully played. It's an ignorant thing to do and you persist regardless, which is odd.

Of course, these are only the opening missions. The full campaign will likely feature redemption and all that predictable nonsense. However, that still adds up to hours of the game asking you to straight up murder the good guys as a Special Ops Space Nazi.

Also, these are the missions EA is using to hype up the full release. The missions everyone with an Origin Access/EA Access pass will play.

So if the story arc is "predictable nonsense" in terms of being a tale of redemption, why are you offended? If the game is moving towards the character coming to terms with her own mistakes and the realization that the Empire is malevolent, how is that tone deaf or some tacit support of fascism? You are literally trying to limit this narrative to the first three missions because that is what is available in the trial and then claim this is irresponsible because those introductory segments don't show her probable defection. Like I mentioned in the other thread, that's the equivalent of watching the first part of American History X and assuming the film is an endorsement of white supremacy and racist violence.

But jesus, TIMING MATTERS. Of all the stories to tell in this universe, DICE/EA went with one about a badass space Nazi in a time where Nazis are very real again.

Nazis were always real and their ideology has persisted long before the Great Orange Menace got elected.

Also, if the story is about redemption, as you've conceded it is, isn't now precisely the time to release a narrative about somebody coming to terms with the failings of blind loyalty to a fascist ideology?

Your entire argument is predicated on optics but the reality is you don't even know what the full picture is until the entire narrative is revealed so the best you can muster, out of either impatience or because you have a particular grudge against this game, is to pin all this meaning on a couple of brief tutorial missions.

I'm sorry but your position and subsequent arguments are threadbare, tenuous and borderline insulting to the reader.
 

ironcreed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
804
Why would the Empire being equated to Space Nazis hinder Star Wars's success in any way?

I imagine that some people would probably have more of a problem with it were the parallel actually there, especially if it was glorified in the sense that you can go full Sith in some of the games. But thankfully this is non-existent and thus we see the success that it is, along with the huge fandom for the dark side.
 

Ladioss

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
847
You're completely missing the point. Japan was not beaten. Imperial Japan was prepared to shove a weapon into the hands of every man, woman, and child to fight to the death against the US-Soviet invasion that was being prepped, which would have cost millions of lives instead of hundreds of thousands. Sounds dark, right? It is, but that's the reality of the choice the Allies were presented with. Having been involved in two, I can assure you there are no easy choices in war, only bad ones and worse ones.

Anyway, I digress.

Or bad choices and even worse reasons that make you kill 4 million muslims in 25 years, but let's talk about that...

Sorry for the disgression but I had to let it out.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,767
Why would the Empire being equated to Space Nazis hinder Star Wars's success in any way?

I imagine that some people would probably have more of a problem with it were the parallel actually there, especially if it was glorified in the sense that you can go full Sith in some of the games. But thankfully this is non-existent and thus we see the success that it is, along with the huge fandom for the dark side.

To add, the phenomenon of roleplaying/cosplaying both sides of the Galactic Civil War would not be what it is today, nor would great charitable groups like the 501st Legion exist either.
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,649
A mountain in the US
I think it's weirder how people vehemently reject the notion when a lot of the imagery and story is clearly at least inspired by Nazi Germany and people that worked on the franchise have openly stated so.
I hadn't heard this before. Can you please show me a source?
They're evil, but they're not real life evil at all. I didn't see any evidence in the OP to suggest that this has any real world consequences, and I'm the guy that made threads on the last site about how horrible some Japanese games were with promoting pedophilic imagery, so I'm totally ready to call out a dev about some shitty practice that is in favor of real life disgusting actions. I just have to pass on siding with this one.
 

MagitekDad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
574
Or bad choices and even worse reasons that make you kill 4 million muslims in 25 years, but let's talk about that...

Sorry for the disgression but I had to let it out.

Make me? Or make someone else? I didn't support the war in Iraq, if that's what you're getting at. I'm not sure what this has to do with the point I was making, but whatever.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,130
In KOTOR I straight up ordered the complete destruction of the Republic fleet. I doubt this new Imperial soldier would come to within a sniff of the stuff I pulled on those Republic losers in KOTOR.

When Bastilla helped me remember who I truly was, the Jedis Jolee and Juhani were all like, "no, you must die, we hate your kind!" So naturally they had to die. Then I got back to the beach, tried to get everyone focused on our task at hand, but that little shit Carth couldn't let things go. He poisoned the mind of my friend and fellow Jedi Mission, and he turned her against me. Carth ran off like a baby before I could deal with him.

But it pained me a great deal that my friend Mission had abandoned me. So much so, that I couldn't even bare to raise my lightsaber at her when she came to hurt me. Thankfully, and I must say regretfully, my Wookiee pall Zaalbar stepped in and protected me. The Republic and their Jedis took so much away from my character.

The Rebels and the Republic don't deserve your sympathy OP. Plus as Rogue One showed, the Rebels had some morally compromised people working for them, and they brought ruin and destruction everywhere they went. Jedda would still be around if it wasn't for them.
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,307
The first mission does not contain instant-fail stealth. And the stealth itself is ridiculously easy.



Being uncomfortable is such a subjective and ultimately nebulous terms as to be largely meaningless. Plenty of things make plenty of people uncomfortable. That's not a critique, that's a vague, poorly-defined reaction. It's evidence of nothing. Also, there's nothing tone deaf about allowing you to play as a fictional operative in a fictional organization that operates in a fictional galaxy. The Empire may be largely predicated on the Nazis but they are hardly a 1:1 analog. By contrast, Wolfenstein, while fiction, is extrapolating that fiction on ACTUAL Nazis. It is utterly pointless to compare the two games and their respective universes.



Even if you had a cogent point with your initial postulation, the highlighted is precisely why few of us would ever take your arguments seriously. You've played a very small amount of the campaign yet have already attempted to state it has nothing new or interesting to say without knowing where it goes. I specifically warned you about this in the other thread and cautioned you to be a bit more methodical before attacking this game but instead, you basically wrote this churlish, vulgarly premature topic, berating something you have't even fully played. It's an ignorant thing to do and you persist regardless, which is odd.



So if the story arc is "predictable nonsense" in terms of being a tale of redemption, why are you offended? If the game is moving towards the character coming to terms with her own mistakes and the realization that the Empire is malevolent, how is that tone deaf or some tacit support of fascism? You are literally trying to limit this narrative to the first three missions because that is what is available in the trial and then claim this is irresponsible because those introductory segments don't show her probable defection. Like I mentioned in the other thread, that's the equivalent of watching the first part of American History X and assuming the film is an endorsement of white supremacy and racist violence.



Nazis were always real and their ideology has persisted long before the Great Orange Menace got elected.

Also, if the story is about redemption, as you've conceded it is, isn't now precisely the time to release a narrative about somebody coming to terms with the failings of blind loyalty to a fascist ideology?

Your entire argument is predicated on optics but the reality is you don't even know what the full picture is until the entire narrative is revealed so the best you can muster, out of either impatience or because you have a particular grudge against this game, is to pin all this meaning on a couple of brief tutorial missions.

I'm sorry but your position and subsequent arguments are threadbare, tenuous and borderline insulting to the reader.

giphy.gif


/thread
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,657
I think players are smart enough to distinguish a fictional Empire of bad guys in a space-fantasy movie from Nazism.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
I hadn't heard this before. Can you please show me a source?
They're evil, but they're not real life evil at all. I didn't see any evidence in the OP to suggest that this has any real world consequences, and I'm the guy that made threads on the last site about how horrible some Japanese games were with promoting pedophilic imagery, so I'm totally ready to call out a dev about some shitty practice that is in favor of real life disgusting actions. I just have to pass on siding with this one.

From the official Star Wars website:

In the Star Wars saga, creator George Lucas showed us how the democratic Republic was slowly manipulated into giving unlimited power to the Sith Lord, Chancellor Palpatine. In Revenge of the Sith, Lucas explored the question, "How do you turn over democracy to a tyrant with applause? Not with a coup, but with applause?" Lucas recalls, "That is the story of Caesar, Napoleon, and Hitler."

The events of Revenge of the Sith are eerily similar to the real story of Adolf Hitler. In Berlin during the rise of Hitler and the Nazi party, American reporter Dorothy Thompson witnessed Hitler's new strategy. Rather than violently overthrow the unstable Weimar Republic governing Germany after World War I, Hitler took control of Germany through legal means. Reporting from Berlin in the 1930s she began to realize that, "No longer was there to be a march on Berlin," or a coup as Hitler had staged once before. This time, Thompson noted, "Hitler's movement was going to vote dictatorship in! In itself a fascinating idea. Imagine a would-be dictator setting out to persuade a sovereign people to vote away their rights."

In the case of both Palpatine and Hitler, both served as chancellor before becoming dictator. Adolf Hitler played upon the instability of the Weimar Republic to rally enough support to be named chancellor of Germany in 1933. Palpatine, capitalizing on the instability of the Republic, seized the opportunity to become chancellor during Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace. Lucas elaborates, "Although step one is that Palpatine becomes chancellor, you'll see in Episode II that he makes another step, and in Episode III he makes another step."

About the costumes

The fact that fascism inspired the look and feel of the Empire is no secret. In fact, Star Wars creator George Lucas even refers to the Imperial officers in The Empire Strikes Back as "Nazis" while giving his commentary of the film. He specifically mentions their militaristic dress, noting, "The Nazis are basically the same costume as we used in the first film and they are designed to be very authoritarian, very empire-like."

This motif is significant, and is one of the defining themes of this era in the Star Wars saga. "You'll see as time goes on [the officers] don't really appear in the movie about the Republic, which is the first three movies," says Lucas. "You don't have that same militaristic look as in the first three films because the Jedi are the ones that keep peace in the universe not the military."

In designing the look of these characters, history played a crucial role. Costume designer John Mollo was tasked with creating the look of these sinister servants of the Empire. To inspire the designs, Mollo looked back to history. "We didn't look at any films specifically, but had a lot of books — all the books there were on science fiction and science-fiction films, books on World War II, on Vietnam, and on Japanese armor." The guidance he was given was simple: "George made pronouncements of a general nature," Mollo says. "First of all, he wanted the Imperial people to look efficient, totalitarian, fascist; and the Rebels, the goodies, to look like something out of a Western or the US Marines. He said, 'You've got a very difficult job here, because I don't want anyone to notice the costumes. They've got to look familiar, but not familiar at the same time.'"

I'm not really arguing about the "real life consequences" here because that's a discussion clearly a lot of people don't want to have but those parallels are irrefutable fact. They aren't like 1:1 and it's not a great analogy but it's clearly there and fully intended.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
I'm starting to get the feeling that this adopted member is a troll. Very odd take on Star Wars lore in general. I think most people don't equate the empire with Nazis at all.
first-order-troopers.jpg

starkiller-base.jpg


The WW2 Nazi Germany imagery here was pretty obvious IMO. I'm not saying this should mean that the new order equals nazis, but really, this was the depiction JJ Abrams chose in TFA.
 

Ladioss

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
847
Make me? Or make someone else? I didn't support the war in Iraq, if that's what you're getting at. I'm not sure what this has to do with the point I was making, but whatever.

Sorry for jumping on your post like that. This trend of conflating reality in all its complexity with pop-culture power fantasies and clear-cut dichotomies is making me more depressive and twitchy than I would like.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
I'm not really arguing about the "real life consequences" here because that's a discussion clearly a lot of people don't want to have but those parallels are irrefutable fact. They aren't like 1:1 and it's not a great analogy but it's clearly there and fully intended.

I think the parallels are obvious but the problem with the OP's arguments (among many things) is that he pursues the notion that Nazis and the Empire are 1:1 analogs, which is demonstrably false. He then compounds this mistake by citing the marketing for Wolfenstein, which actually does employ their antagonists to be literal Nazis.

It's a poor comparison housed in an inherently weak argument.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
I don't know if I'd consider the only game AAA game that I can think of that has a protagonist modelled on and acted by a second generation Indian American could be considered a Nazi power fantasy.
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,649
A mountain in the US
first-order-troopers.jpg

starkiller-base.jpg


The WW2 Nazi Germany imagery here was pretty obvious IMO. I'm not saying this should mean that the new order equals nazis, but really, this was the depiction JJ Abrams chose in TFA.
Okay, I can definitely see that. I guess it just doesn't make me equate them to Nazis packaged with all the other films. If they start talking eliminating other ethnicities or something, then I'd agree.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,767
A little side note... can anyone who has early access, post screens of the voice-cast please (credits)?

I know IMDb has it up, and has been for some time, (and it probably is accurate), but just want to cross reference since anyone can edit IMDb, as well as see who is voicing Luke again.
 

GillianSeed79

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,434
Actually, I've found a huge flaw in OP's reasoning. The rebels murdered thousands of innocent contractors when they blew up the second death star. Exhibit A:

I'm kidding BTW. Just thought I'd add a little humor to the discussion. And, yeah, the Empire is a bunch space Nazis.
 
Last edited:

hipsterbodega

Member
Oct 30, 2017
603
Fair enough, I just think the topic was already in space (get it??? .....) before it even really started. A new topic would probably be needed for a more down to earth discussion about playing as/roleplaying as the bad guys/evil side.
Yeah, that's my mistake. I read the thread and then got stuck on something that happened 15 pages prior. I should have offered more context or just moved on.

But isn't that the point? We can explore, because it's not real. There's no moral ambiguity to explore when talking about actual Nazis. With media, we can discuss parallels and analogies and subtext and references, but to do so we need to engage the subject more honestly. The OP started with a weak premise and failed to actually have a conversation when confronted.
Sure, that makes sense. But let's not be obtuse: When people say "It's not real" in regards to video games, they are generally not saying "It's not real [and so let's discuss the shit out of it!]", they are usually saying "It's not real [and so I don't want to think about it very hard.]"
 

Deleted member 17207

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,208
Sorry, but I can't really think of anything to say other than this post is fucking stupid. You can't compare it to Wolfenstein because that's based on real imagery, a real group of people, etc. etc. You're basically arguing that any game or any piece of media that has you relating to/acting out the "bad guy" should be banned because we shouldn't be able to see anything from their point of view.

Are you a Star Wars fan? I am, a big fucking nerd Star Wars fan, the kind who's read Star Wars novels, watched Clone Wars, watches Rebels, reads some of the comics, knows way too much about the now-"legends" EU, etc. etc. And guess what? The Empire is fucking cool. Not in a "man I really relate to these guys and what they're doing" kind of way, in the "Man the stormtroopers are so dope looking, and how cool is Tarkin? How cool are Vader and the Emperor? Badass!" kind of way.

I think that's the problem you're having here. You're not able to separate thinking the Empire is cool and that it's cool to play as them in a story to see everything from their side for a change, and your weird sensitivity to "acting out space fascism and nazism" or whatever.

Chill the fuck out dude, it's a video game, it's not even based on real life, and even if the empire are evil, they're still badass and it's neat that we get to play a stormtrooper for once. Stop thinking so much and just enjoy the fucking video game.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,123
OP lambasting a campaign s/he hasn't played and thus can't really fully critique properly yet aside, are people seriously not aware that the major inspiration for the Empire was Nazi Germany? I mean their soldiers are called stormtroopers, for fuck's sake. Have some of you been watching these movies for decades and somehow not made that connection until now?
 

Deleted member 17207

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,208
OP lambasting a campaign s/he hasn't played and thus can't really fully critique properly yet aside, are people seriously not aware that the major inspiration for the Empire was Nazi Germany? I mean their soldiers are called stormtroopers, for fuck's sake. Have some of you been watching these movies for decades and somehow not made that connection until now?
Nope, everyone's fully aware and as smart as you, don't worry - we just also realize that it's fake, and fun.

Relax.
 

Vic_Viper

Thanked By SGM
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,251
Just started the campaign with the Origin trial. Do we know how long the campaign is or how many chapters there are? Ive heard like 6-7 hours and the trail is the first 3.

Dont really care that we are playing the game as an operative for the Empire in the beginning. We really have no idea what the context even is at this point and its a Star Wars game lol.
 

resident_UA

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,400
Ummm. I'm not Star Wars fan. Jut watched all of them recently... I think in first trilogy you could make the case that they are like Nazis, but prequels complicate things quite a bit. I don't think they are same at all.

Also game seems to be quite good. I loved that you play on dark side. It seems like there's a twist coming...
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,123
Nope, everyone's fully aware and as smart as you, don't worry - we just also realize that it's fake, and fun.

Relax.

Clearly some are not, since there are people literally arguing that Nazi Germany's imagery has no connection to the Empire as depicted in the films, and upthread someone had to provide citations from Lucas and other official sources to "prove" this was the case. So feel free to stuff your dismissive, snide bullshit back in its box.
 

GinoFelino

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,234
The first mission does not contain instant-fail stealth. And the stealth itself is ridiculously easy.



Being uncomfortable is such a subjective and ultimately nebulous terms as to be largely meaningless. Plenty of things make plenty of people uncomfortable. That's not a critique, that's a vague, poorly-defined reaction. It's evidence of nothing. Also, there's nothing tone deaf about allowing you to play as a fictional operative in a fictional organization that operates in a fictional galaxy. The Empire may be largely predicated on the Nazis but they are hardly a 1:1 analog. By contrast, Wolfenstein, while fiction, is extrapolating that fiction on ACTUAL Nazis. It is utterly pointless to compare the two games and their respective universes.



Even if you had a cogent point with your initial postulation, the highlighted is precisely why few of us would ever take your arguments seriously. You've played a very small amount of the campaign yet have already attempted to state it has nothing new or interesting to say without knowing where it goes. I specifically warned you about this in the other thread and cautioned you to be a bit more methodical before attacking this game but instead, you basically wrote this churlish, vulgarly premature topic, berating something you have't even fully played. It's an ignorant thing to do and you persist regardless, which is odd.



So if the story arc is "predictable nonsense" in terms of being a tale of redemption, why are you offended? If the game is moving towards the character coming to terms with her own mistakes and the realization that the Empire is malevolent, how is that tone deaf or some tacit support of fascism? You are literally trying to limit this narrative to the first three missions because that is what is available in the trial and then claim this is irresponsible because those introductory segments don't show her probable defection. Like I mentioned in the other thread, that's the equivalent of watching the first part of American History X and assuming the film is an endorsement of white supremacy and racist violence.

Nazis were always real and their ideology has persisted long before the Great Orange Menace got elected.

Also, if the story is about redemption, as you've conceded it is, isn't now precisely the time to release a narrative about somebody coming to terms with the failings of blind loyalty to a fascist ideology?

Your entire argument is predicated on optics but the reality is you don't even know what the full picture is until the entire narrative is revealed so the best you can muster, out of either impatience or because you have a particular grudge against this game, is to pin all this meaning on a couple of brief tutorial missions.

I'm sorry but your position and subsequent arguments are threadbare, tenuous and borderline insulting to the reader.
Hey, welcome back! I feel like we've gone through these motions already, and although I genuinely appreciate your engagement here, there's little here for me to react to without repeating myself or other points often mentioned ITT.

I'll reply to your point about American History X though.

First of all, I'm not claiming or assuming this game endorses its protagonist's values.

Second of all, this is an interactive medium. I'd be very disturbed having to perform the actions that Norton's character does in that movie regardless of his redemption. Here too, the character's redemption won't excuse how misguided her characterisation is up to that point.

I've always framed my issues with the caveat that my gripes are with the opening hour(s) of the game. That's not a short amount of time by any means, and all the while her portrayal is shallow, grating and misguided.

Like Burt said earlier, she needs a Galactic cleansing to teach her right from wrong? How good for her! That doesn't mean I'm eager to suffer through hours of her cheering on the deaths of Rebels and having to murder hundreds of them myself with my only motivation being that I'm playing as a brainwashed fascist. If that sounds like your type of game, more power to you! But for me, it's not an angle I need from a Star Wars game right now.
 

Deleted member 17207

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Clearly some are not, since there are people literally arguing that Nazi Germany's imagery has no connection to the Empire as depicted in the films, and upthread someone had to provide citations from Lucas and other official sources to "prove" this was the case. So feel free to stuff your dismissive, snide bullshit back in its box.
Oh, well my bad, they ARE idiots.
 

Deleted member 17207

user requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
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Hey, welcome back! I feel like we've gone through these motions already, and although I genuinely appreciate your engagement here, there's little here for me to react to without repeating myself or other points often mentioned ITT.

I'll reply to your point about American History X though.

First of all, I'm not claiming or assuming this game endorses its protagonist's values.

Second of all, this is an interactive medium. I'd be very disturbed having to perform the actions that Norton's character does in that movie regardless of his redemption. Here too, the character's redemption won't excuse how misguided her characterisation is up to that point.

I've always framed my issues with the caveat that my gripes are with the opening hour(s) of the game. That's not a short amount of time by any means, and all the while her portrayal is shallow, grating and misguided.

Like Burt said earlier, she needs a Galactic cleansing to teach her right from wrong? How good for her! That doesn't mean I'm eager to suffer through hours of her cheering on the deaths of Rebels and having to murder hundreds of them myself with my only motivation being that I'm playing as a brainwashed fascist. If that sounds like your type of game, more power to you! But for me, it's not an angle I need from a Star Wars game right now.
Guess you're cool playing as a rebel who mows down tons of stormtroopers who are just doing it for a job, then eh? Don't forget, if not for 3PO and Obi-Wan, Luke would've ended up being a stormie too.

Or think about how in Rogue one, the rebels are willing to do even immoral shit just to take the empire out.
 

Vic_Viper

Thanked By SGM
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,251
When does this story campaign take place?

Gotta say, I really dont like only being able to hold 1 gun at a time. The ability cards work well in the multiplayer, but in the single player I should be able to have a sniper along with a regular gun.
 

GinoFelino

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,234
Guess you're cool playing as a rebel who mows down tons of stormtroopers who are just doing it for a job, then eh? Don't forget, if not for 3PO and Obi-Wan, Luke would've ended up being a stormie too.

Or think about how in Rogue one, the rebels are willing to do even immoral shit just to take the empire out.
In Rogue One, that was an interesting approach and one that was executed well.

It's all about tone and execution!

Btw, mowing down tons of stormtroopers sounds fine by me. They're Space Nazis, remember? ;)
 

Cain

Guest
You're completely missing the point. Japan was not beaten. Imperial Japan was prepared to shove a weapon into the hands of every man, woman, and child to fight to the death against the US-Soviet invasion that was being prepped, which would have cost millions of lives instead of hundreds of thousands. Sounds dark, right? It is, but that's the reality of the choice the Allies were presented with. Having been involved in two, I can assure you there are no easy choices in war, only bad ones and worse ones.

Anyway, I digress.

Did you ever hear the word "Volkssturm"? Thats the exact same thing you describe. They send children and grandpas to fight tanks ffs and what did it do? Did it kill millions upon millions more? No it didnt because it was a bullshit tactic and greatly ineffectiv. Japanese people where starving, the troops where starving, they had no economy, no ships, no planes. The country was broken. Yes an invasion would have been bloody, but detonating 2(!) Weapons of mass destruction on civilians is just unnecessary imo.

I know that the opinions are very split on this topic. But like any indiscriminate slaughter of humans, this cant be excused just because the US are "the good guys".
 
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