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Waddle Dee

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,725
California
Aye, and it catered to 4 important, money-spending types of fans in particular.

1. Furries
2. Kids
3. Boost Aficionados
4. Modders

Why this gets ignored is foolish.

To be fair, Kids (and probably Furries) were gonna buy the next Sonic game regardless. Boost Aficionados (I guess I'm one since Generations is my favorite "3D" Sonic game, despite only 30% of it being 3D) were disappointed with how Forces turned out. Modders are a lot less invested in Forces than they were with Generations. Plus the modding community is too small to be considered noteworthy, sales-wise.

Forces could have been a completely different kind of Sonic game and it would have probably sold just as well. By the time Forces came out it'd been 4 years since Lost World and 7 since Generations. People were dying for a new mainline Sonic game.
 

WPS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
365
Sonic Forces should have been this.



That proof of concept looks like I wanted a modern Sonic game to be, more than Utopia tbh


That looks well made, I don't really see how this is conceptually different to the existing modern games, tbh. It just looks like someones attempt at implementing a boost style engine.

I guess it looks like it corners better than the existing one, especially when not boosting, and it looks like wall running is more organic, but they're just running around a test level so its hard to see what the dev is planning to do with those to differentiate it from standard boost style.

The rest of the features either don't look that ground breaking (a slide attack, some strange peel-out/spin-dash hybrid) or are just nice animation touches (rolling briefly after landing).

Really, I don't think Forces mechanical concepts are flawed, partly because they're mostly lifted from Unleashed and Generations. Forces's issues are with its execution.
 

Waddle Dee

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,725
California
I think it's still pretty crazy that Sonic Team has been trying to implement a traditional double jump into Sonic's arsenal for 8 years now (outside of Generations) and they keep messing it up. How hard is it to program a double jump and make it feel natural!? Sonic Colors had the best one overall since it took the least amount of time to get used to but it still wasn't handled well.

At this point I'd rather just see them not attempt implemented one again and make sure the level design works well without one. Generations played great without a double jump. It's not needed.
 

Dooble

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,470
That looks well made, I don't really see how this is conceptually different to the existing modern games, tbh. It just looks like someones attempt at implementing a boost style engine.

I guess it looks like it corners better than the existing one, especially when not boosting, and it looks like wall running is more organic, but they're just running around a test level so its hard to see what the dev is planning to do with those to differentiate it from standard boost style.

The rest of the features either don't look that ground breaking (a slide attack, some strange peel-out/spin-dash hybrid) or are just nice animation touches (rolling briefly after landing).

Really, I don't think Forces mechanical concepts are flawed, partly because they're mostly lifted from Unleashed and Generations. Forces's issues are with its execution.

I think the natural evolution of the boost formula is to open it up a bit and have it open world. I know it's kind of a fad, but it is what I thought where it would go after playing Unleashed. had they had the continous ambition.

The level design of Forces is so so poor, and the character abilities are so hollow (no drifting, barely use sliding, all the wisps have pretty much the same function except the light dash wisp)
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
People who aren't Sonic fans made fun of the Avatar stuff, sure. We all knew they would the moment it was announced and I'm sure that included people at Sega of America (probably not Sonic Team though).

That said, I think the idea is genius. The whole "OC do not steal" meme exists for a reason, after all. A lot of Sonic fans clearly love the designs of the characters and want to make their own. It's fitting that they're finally able to in an actual game. Even as someone who doesn't care for this aspect of the fanbase, I can get behind its inclusion... especially since the game ignores the more... nsfw reasons people make fun of that stuff.

The big problem with the Avatar is that its gameplay is too much like a weaker version of Modern Sonic but with poorly implemented guns. Honestly, the gunplay in Shadow's game was way better implemented. The Avatar gameplay should have been something like a faster paced and more platformer-heavy version of Ratchet & Clank.
I fully blame the OC for Forces' lack of content. They should be more considerate about where the franchise is going and what they can build for use in future games like they do with Yakuza titles.

Do I think the idea is bad? Not really, but it is pretty clear that most of it's problems revolve around it's inclusion. Considering how limited it is and how unlikely it is to return I doubt it will be looked back on as an especially notable inclusion in the future. I fully expect SEGA to trash it and move on away from it entirely like they did with Valkyria Revolution.

Aye, and it catered to 4 important, money-spending types of fans in particular.

1. Furries
2. Kids
3. Boost Aficionados
4. Modders

Why this gets ignored is foolish.

Money-spending types of fans?

1. Sort of. I mean, most I see rather be able to play as Tails or some of the others again.
2. What kids? Iizuka's only mentioned Mania when it comes to selling to kids. There is no evidence suggesting this is a game kids like much.
3. Most of them agree Unleashed, Colors and Generations are a lot better.
4. It literally has the worst modding scene out of any 3D Sonic game except maybe Adventure 2 and uhh... Riders? Wish I waited to buy the game because I expected much better from it in regards to this.

Doesn't matter how the internet hyperbole machine received Forces, it sold well on consoles.

"Sold well" is something that pops up too much when discussing Sonic Forces. We have no direct numbers and it only ever showed up once in UK and Japanese charts then was gone forever after that. The price of the game on consoles completely plummeted within weeks of release so I somehow doubt it's been some secret hit when it already launched at a budget price.

Before it launched I was expecting at least Generations tier sales, but everything we have seen suggests it is nowhere near half that. Pathetic considering it had Mania's momentum, was the first major 3D Sonic in a long while, had a mobile game tie-in and was tapping into a part of the fandom that has always been notable but never had a game 'for them'. Random internet hyperbole aside (which was never something I personally considered seeing as I am the kind of person that pre-ordered Metal Gear Survive) Sonic Forces just simply is not a notable title for SEGA or the Sonic franchise in any way.

It is worth noting that Sonic Forces: Speed Battle has done pretty good and SEGA might be referencing that as well when they state Forces being a success. Nothing else really makes sense to me, at least.
 

Kyari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,853
Sega feels like it sold well enough to consider that it "Performed Strongly" so that's really all that matters.

Sonic Forces will likely have done a slow burn selling well with kids/parents of kids on the run up to christmas especially.
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
Sega feels like it sold well enough to consider that it "Performed Strongly" so that's really all that matters.

Sonic Forces will likely have done a slow burn selling well with kids/parents of kids on the run up to christmas especially.
Not if they are counting Speed Battle with that it does not. Again, it's immediate and huge drop in price tells a different story than SEGA seems to want to say. Obviously I do not think they are straight up lying or anything like that, but no evidence we have out there really suggests the game is any sort of significant success. In fact, their sudden focus on classic Sonic stuff above anything else paints a pretty clear picture to me.
 

Waddle Dee

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,725
California
Money-spending types of fans?

1. Sort of. I mean, most I see rather be able to play as Tails or some of the others again.
2. What kids? Iizuka's only mentioned Mania when it comes to selling to kids. There is no evidence suggesting this is a game kids like much.
3. Most of them agree Unleashed, Colors and Generations are a lot better.
4. It literally has the worst modding scene out of any 3D Sonic game except maybe Adventure 2 and uhh... Riders? Wish I waited to buy the game because I expected much better from it in regards to this.

I don't know how much of you spend time around kids but they absolutely love Sonic and it's not just Sonic Boom they talk about.
 

Dooble

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,470
It's just insane to me that they are selling a retail Sonic game at 40, while they are confident enough in Yakuza 6 to have it sell at 60.
 

Waddle Dee

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,725
California
It's just insane to me that they are selling a retail Sonic game at 40, while they are confident enough in Yakuza 6 to have it sell at 60.

I think a part of it is that the American/European branches of Sega is a lot more self-aware and knows that people would have been very negative if Forces was $40. Not just because it failed to match most people's expectations, but also because it's light on content.
 

Dooble

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,470
I think a part of it is that the American/European branches of Sega is a lot more self-aware and knows that people would have been very negative if Forces was $40. Not just because it failed to match most people's expectations, but also because it's light on content.

Stuff like pricing would also go through the mothership in Japan and have them be very aware it.

Unrelated, it's any day now for the Sonic Racing game reveal isn't it?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,466
Not if they are counting Speed Battle with that it does not. Again, it's immediate and huge drop in price tells a different story than SEGA seems to want to say. Obviously I do not think they are straight up lying or anything like that, but no evidence we have out there really suggests the game is any sort of significant success. In fact, their sudden focus on classic Sonic stuff above anything else paints a pretty clear picture to me.
On top of that just look at what concrete information we do have.

Mania? As of last month, with no physical release at all (and one on the way to boot), we know that the game has earned over one million downloads across all platforms.

Forces? "Performed strongly". Whatever that means.

if it was anywhere near a million SEGA would have told us by now
 

Dooble

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,470
Sega has low standards for successfull games. Sure the Yakuza series is flagship and critically acclaimed and all that but they likely only break about even.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,811
I don't know how much of you spend time around kids but they absolutely love Sonic and it's not just Sonic Boom they talk about.
Yeah one of the things sonic's consistant in is keeping younger fans, the character designs help. I had a cousin during the no friend who asked me if I had a game with shadow in it because he wanted to play as shadow. He asked the same about knuckles and tails too. Kids like the characters and it gets them interested in the product. I feel like its an advantage they have had over mega man as a series.

Stuff like pricing would also go through the mothership in Japan and have them be very aware it.

Unrelated, it's any day now for the Sonic Racing game reveal isn't it?

I'm still wondering what that racing game will even be.

I fully blame the OC for Forces' lack of content. They should be more considerate about where the franchise is going and what they can build for use in future games like they do with Yakuza titles.

Do I think the idea is bad? Not really, but it is pretty clear that most of it's problems revolve around it's inclusion. Considering how limited it is and how unlikely it is to return I doubt it will be looked back on as an especially notable inclusion in the future. I fully expect SEGA to trash it and move on away from it entirely like they did with Valkyria Revolution.

.
I would make the argument that's classic sonic, but I can see your point.

I would legitimately rather have a more fully fledged Buddy game at this point. I liked that system a lot.
I think if the game was good, and it was more focused with " hanging with your favorite sonic characters" over " who is this mystery villian " it would be better. That's where the focus should be. Yeah there are unique villians in xenoverse but that doesn't quite matter, what matters is you can team up with piccolo and punch folks.
 

Deleted member 42686

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 26, 2018
1,847
I think a part of it is that the American/European branches of Sega is a lot more self-aware and knows that people would have been very negative if Forces was $40. Not just because it failed to match most people's expectations, but also because it's light on content.

Just imagine they selling this game at $60. Prices really show how confidence they have in their game. I mean, how many times did this happened?
 

Deleted member 34949

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 30, 2017
19,101
Not much of a TF fa either, but Transformers Devastation was fucking amazing for being on a raggedy ass shoestring budget. Best combat engine they've designed aside from Bayo 1, tbh
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
I don't know how much of you spend time around kids but they absolutely love Sonic and it's not just Sonic Boom they talk about.
I very rarely see kids with Sonic OCs anymore. Most of those kind of fans seem to be 20 and up now. I would say the same about Shadow fans at this point too.

I honestly feel like current kids are starting to prefer classic Sonic at this point. That is weird to imagine but I see loads of them into stuff like Mania and fangames like Robo Blast 2 now.

On top of that just look at what concrete information we do have.

Mania? As of last month, with no physical release at all (and one on the way to boot), we know that the game has earned over one million downloads across all platforms.

Forces? "Performed strongly". Whatever that means.

if it was anywhere near a million SEGA would have told us by now
Yep. It is just Microsoft style buzzwords. Hell, if you Google 'performed strongly' almost all of the hits that show up are discussing Sonic Forces. It is not a normal term because it is a spin.

I think a part of it is that the American/European branches of Sega is a lot more self-aware and knows that people would have been very negative if Forces was $40. Not just because it failed to match most people's expectations, but also because it's light on content.
It seems more like an industry standard thing at this point. Outside of Nintendo stuff, all modern platformers launch at $40. Plus, the only Sonic game that was ever $60 past the Saturn era was 06, everything after that has been 50 USD.

I personally do not see Forces launching at $40 as some sign of weakness or whatever, I think they just recognized it's a relatively thin game compared to most of their releases.


I would make the argument that's classic sonic, but I can see your point.
Realistically I cannot picture classic Sonic impacting the development of Forces too much considering how he barely has any levels and they are all 2D. He probably hurt the story worse than anything else.
 

Dooble

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,470
Yep. It is just Microsoft style buzzwords. Hell, if you Google 'performed strongly' almost all of the hits that show up are discussing Sonic Forces. It is not a normal term because it is a spin..

Lol, why would they spin something for investors. As I said, Sega just has low standards. They constantly say the Yakuza games sell strongly, but with just 200k to 300k they are definitely not making a ton of money.
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
Lol, why would they spin something for investors. As I said, Sega just has low standards. They constantly say the Yakuza games sell strongly, but with just 200k to 300k they are definitely not making a ton of money.
Well it is not lying if it sold within their expectations (whatever those were). "Performed strongly" sounds quite good but we really have no idea where that could land it's sales at. I believe they were pretty happy with Lost World's sales too and that was a borderline flop.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,466
Platinum hasn't made a decent game in years.
1. Transformers Devastation was decent. I'm not even a Transformers fan.

2. Platinum straight-up hasn't made many games in the past few years period.

3. 3 of Platinums worst games were published by Activision, who clearly gave them very small budgets and strict time limits.
Was NieR Automata winning/being nominated for all those GotY awards last year and being #4 on GAF's list last year just a fever dream or something
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
I wish I loved NieR Automata. Everything about it's presentation is brilliant to me, feels like a modern Panzer Dragoon in a lot of ways.

Platinum is not a bad developer at all, but their style of action games has grown kind of thin on me. I think SEGA's AM2 or especially Ryu ga Gotoku Studio would handle an action game nowadays better than them in a lot of ways. Would love to see their own take on something like Sonic or Bayonetta, even if it would cause Era to have a meltdown.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
1. Transformers Devastation was decent. I'm not even a Transformers fan.

2. Platinum straight-up hasn't made many games in the past few years period.

3. 3 of Platinums worst games were published by Activision, who clearly gave them very small budgets and strict time limits.

Thanks for covering this before me. I legit went WTF at that post.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
I wish I loved NieR Automata. Everything about it's presentation is brilliant to me, feels like a modern Panzer Dragoon in a lot of ways.

Platinum is not a bad developer at all, but their style of action games has grown kind of thin on me. I think SEGA's AM2 or especially Ryu ga Gotoku Studio would handle an action game nowadays better than them in a lot of ways. Would love to see their own take on something like Sonic or Bayonetta, even if it would cause Era to have a meltdown.

Big the Cat beat em up? Maybe a new action packed chaotix game?
 
OP
OP
Professor Beef

Professor Beef

Official ResetEra™ Chao Puncher
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,501
The Digital World
"My opinion is different then the masses so the game is objectively bad."

So you don't let Platinum's output thus don't want Shadow game from them, that makes sense. No need to shit on the whole recent output in an egregious manner.
I never said anything was objectively bad. And I've actually played NierA and couldn't stand it so yeah I'm gonna tell the truth and say it was a boring slog.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,811
I wish I loved NieR Automata. Everything about it's presentation is brilliant to me, feels like a modern Panzer Dragoon in a lot of ways.

Platinum is not a bad developer at all, but their style of action games has grown kind of thin on me. I think SEGA's AM2 or especially Ryu ga Gotoku Studio would handle an action game nowadays better than them in a lot of ways. Would love to see their own take on something like Sonic or Bayonetta, even if it would cause Era to have a meltdown.
I don't think they would handle action better, different sure. Better depends.

Yakuza are good rpg brawlers, but I still like revengence more than all of them.

Now presentation and story now that is entirely different discussion.
 

Waddle Dee

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,725
California
To be fair, I really didn't enjoy NierA either. Combat was too shallow to make up for the vast, but empty, overworld and the story and characters didn't interest me. Got about 10 hours in before stopping.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,466
NieR Automata was one of my favorite games ever and easily the best game of last year y'all are wack

face-with-look-of-triumph_1f624.png
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
I was looking through some Dragon Ball FighterZ mods earlier and came across this:



Not the most interesting or well done mod out there, but it really got me thinking how damn awesome a Dragon Ball X Sonic the Hedgehog crossover of some sort would be. I honestly think both fandoms would really enjoy it too. Kind of blows my mind that one never happened after all these years too. SEGA and Bandai Namco have a great relationship with one another so I do not think that would be a issue at all.

 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,811
I was looking through some Dragon Ball FighterZ mods earlier and came across this:



Not the most interesting or well done mod out there, but it really got me thinking how damn awesome a Dragon Ball X Sonic the Hedgehog crossover of some sort would be. I honestly think both fandoms would really enjoy it too. Kind of blows my mind that one never happened after all these years too. SEGA and Bandai Namco have a great relationship with one another so I do not think that would be a issue at all.



So Two things.

1) GODDAMN supporting me is a good ass fucking song.

2) I'm suprised sonic doesn't do more crossoever. I think somoene mentioned this in the thread where everyone was trying to come to terms with a sonic only racer. But uh, I think Sega would make a chunk of change having crossoevers where they " sonic-ify " characters. Like Bayo shows up in a sonic game . And her Name is " Bayo -wolf " , and she's just a wolf. And you just sell statues and merch of that shit. Or dressing up sonic characters in costumes. Like Sonic Dressed up as jackie from Virtua Fighter or Beat from jet set. It happens sometimes you get like hastune miku dressed up in a sonic hoodie and amy has a puyo puyo outfit in a mobile game. But I think they could make a chunk of change, sonic-ifing characters , or having sonic characters , not an avatar but the actual characters dress up as other characters more often. Like shadow dressed up as kuzama Kiryu , because holyshit that would be literally perfect. I think " we did it a crossoever with so and so " here are they as sonic characters... would do well.
 

TheOGB

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,010
NieR Automata was one of my favorite games ever and easily the best game of last year y'all are wack

face-with-look-of-triumph_1f624.png

Specter of Torment and Samus Returns were released that year, pls try again :P
Oh please, everybody knows Undertale was GOTY again last year, but for PS Vita. Just like it'll be GOTY this year, but for Switch.
tumblr_nxzh3bohaZ1tkgb7e_1447804487_cover.jpg


I was looking through some Dragon Ball FighterZ mods earlier and came across this:



Not the most interesting or well done mod out there, but it really got me thinking how damn awesome a Dragon Ball X Sonic the Hedgehog crossover of some sort would be. I honestly think both fandoms would really enjoy it too. Kind of blows my mind that one never happened after all these years too. SEGA and Bandai Namco have a great relationship with one another so I do not think that would be a issue at all.


Lmao when Goku Black showed up
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
So Two things.

1) GODDAMN supporting me is a good ass fucking song.

2) I'm suprised sonic doesn't do more crossoever. I think somoene mentioned this in the thread where everyone was trying to come to terms with a sonic only racer. But uh, I think Sega would make a chunk of change having crossoevers where they " sonic-ify " characters. Like Bayo shows up in a sonic game . And her Name is " Bayo -wolf " , and she's just a wolf. And you just sell statues and merch of that shit. Or dressing up sonic characters in costumes. Like Sonic Dressed up as jackie from Virtua Fighter or Beat from jet set. It happens sometimes you get like hastune miku dressed up in a sonic hoodie and amy has a puyo puyo outfit in a mobile game. But I think they could make a chunk of change, sonic-ifing characters , or having sonic characters , not an avatar but the actual characters dress up as other characters more often. Like shadow dressed up as kuzama Kiryu , because holyshit that would be literally perfect. I think " we did it a crossoever with so and so " here are they as sonic characters... would do well.
1. YEP!

2. I dunno about making animal versions of various characters, but I always thought SEGA's missed so many chances at building the synergy between their brands by doing more crossover cameos. It's brought an insane amount of attention to NiGHTS in particular. Imagine how cool something like Generations with classic SEGA levels would be! I think the majority of SEGA's big Japanese franchises could work well enough together too.

A dream game of mine is a Kid Icarus Uprising style Space Harrier where each chapter is a different SEGA world. God that would be sick.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,811
1. YEP!

2. I dunno about making animal versions of various characters, but I always thought SEGA's missed so many chances at building the synergy between their brands by doing more crossover cameos. It's brought an insane amount of attention to NiGHTS in particular. Imagine how cool something like Generations with classic SEGA levels would be! I think the majority of SEGA's big Japanese franchises could work well enough together too.

A dream game of mine is a Kid Icarus Uprising style Space Harrier where each chapter is a different SEGA world. God that would be sick.
I'm fond of the animal thing because , I like the idea of it. I think you could just...add sillyness from various other games to sonic... by just having those characters sorta exist. Like i've always been fond of ' Oh hey cody from final is also in street fighter land " type deal. And as a person who can turn " Skeezy buinssman " on and off in my brain like a super power, seems like free money.

That said though, I like your idea. It would be like words unite....except not shitty. You could play as different characters and each character could hang out in specific sega worlds. Like Tails, has help do after burner stuff. And knuckles does some vurtua figher stuff. Sonic is doing all that crazy JSR stuff

By the way, Jet Set Sonic, should have been a game... like 14 years ago.

And then you could Eggman terrorizing folks from other video games... actually visit the world of bayonetta more than a reference. It would be neato