Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Dmax3901 · May 24, 2018

I've said this in a few different threads so apologies for repeating myself but BF1 going to WWI is definitely one of the first times I've felt uncomfortable about a real war being depicted in a video game. WWII was obviously terrible and a lot of atrocities were committed, but it at least has that through-line of a 'good cause' i.e. stopping the Nazis. WWI is just incomprehensible, nonsensical, pointless horror from beginning to end and to see it portrayed as 'fun' was always a little jarring to me.

Mostly in the advertising was this an issue however, when playing the game I could just forget about it and have fun cause at the end of the day it's an arcadey shooter. It was seeing names like "Passchendaele" and "The Somme" flash up in a trailer as new DLC maps that really threw me. Perhaps a slightly extreme example, but it was akin to seeing "Dachau" or "Auschwitz" advertised as incentives.

Seeing zero Nazi iconography, lots of wacky action and women soldiers in this BFV trailer shows to me that they're going further toward the 'fun' side of things this time around and that's a ok with me.

Especially if it makes incels mad.

Thorrgal · May 24, 2018

RalchAC said:
The situation in Catalonia is not black and white. I'm not going to turn this into a political discussion about it, because that's not what the thread is about, but... it's more complicated than that.

Yeah I live there so I know. There are politicians in prison ror their ideas, right now.

LightEntite · May 25, 2018

Morrigan said:
Because it's important to continue showing how pervasive and toxic they are? If you don't confront a problem head-on you can't possibly even try to solve it.

Remember when Sarkeesian posted screencaps of all the vile harassment she received? It was eye-opening for many people.

Sarkeesian was a bit different, those were personal attacks.

anyway I'm not saying don't bring attention to it....but ffs there's a difference between attention vs. damning the whole lot because of the actions of a few

i suppose it's just a difference in approach. I can't possibly see the benefit in calling gamers in general trash because of a few specific (and quite predictible) trolls, it doesn't matter how pervasive or toxic they are. That mindset just about never works...unless we're talking about literal nazis.

I suppose i shouldn't have singled out the picture itself.

Weltall Zero · May 25, 2018

Thorrgal said:
Yeah I live there so I know. There are politicians in prison ror their ideas, right now.

They are not there "for their ideas". Both sides are as as manipulative as their unmitigated drooling idiocy allows them, which is par for the course for our politicians, but if you believe they were jailed "for their ideas", it would seem you've already fallen for one of the sides' propaganda.

Dmax3901 said:
I've said this in a few different threads so apologies for repeating myself but BF1 going to WWI is definitely one of the first times I've felt uncomfortable about a real war being depicted in a video game. WWII was obviously terrible and a lot of atrocities were committed, but it at least has that through-line of a 'good cause' i.e. stopping the Nazis. WWI is just incomprehensible, nonsensical, pointless horror from beginning to end and to see it portrayed as 'fun' was always a little jarring to me.

I've felt this way with pretty much every war game, frankly. I think WWII might feel less shocking because we're so used to it being gamified all the time, even before videogames even existed. If anything, one would think WWII is a worse one to make games out of it, since it's both more recent and, well, the Nazis' atrocities easily causing nightmares in adults just by reading about them.

In fact what you just said highlights something that is extremelly dangerous on second thought. By referring to WWII over and over in fictional media, it becomes the "prototypal war" in the popular subconscious, and in turn this generalizes its properties over other wars; specifically, as you said, that it was the closest we got to a "just" war, with a just purpose, and one that was actually accomplished at that. This is an anomaly, a weird outlier; most wars don't involve a clearly "right" and a clearly "wrong" side, and accomplish nothing but insane death and destruction for both sides. By planting the idea that WWII's "justness" and "usefulness" may be common properties in wars, people become far more receptive to supporting further war efforts by their countries.

RalchAC · May 25, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
They are not there "for their ideas". Both sides are as as manipulative as their unmitigated drooling idiocy allows them, which is par for the course for our politicians, but if you believe they were jailed "for their ideas", it would seem you've already fallen for one of the sides' propaganda.

Couldn't have put it better TBH.

Weltall Zero said:
I've felt this way with pretty much every war game, frankly. I think WWII might feel less shocking because we're so used to it being gamified all the time, even before videogames even existed. If anything, one would think WWII is a worse one to make games out of it, since it's both more recent and, well, the Nazis' atrocities easily causing nightmares in adults just by reading about them.

In fact what you just said highlights something that is extremelly dangerous on second thought. By referring to WWII over and over in fictional media, it becomes the "prototypal war" in the popular subconscious, and in turn this generalizes its properties over other wars; specifically, as you said, that it was the closest we got to a "just" war, with a just purpose, and one that was actually accomplished at that. This is an anomaly, a weird outlier; most wars don't involve a clearly "right" and a clearly "wrong" side, and accomplish nothing but insane death and destruction for both sides. By planting the idea that WWII's "justness" and "usefulness" may be common properties in wars, people become far more receptive to supporting further war efforts by their countries.

For better or worse, Nazis are the closest that has ever existed in modern history to a "comic book villain" so to speak. Looking from the current perspective and without insight about the actual hows and whys of Hitler's rise to power, it's hard to believe that someone as clearly evil as the nazis could have been elected.

I haven't played BF1, but how does this game portray WW1? That was a war without a clear good and bad side, since it was the direct consequence of a complicated web of loyalties and arrangements made "under the table" so to speak that was bound to explode in everyone's faces sooner or later. I have played Valiant Hearts, and I actually enjoyed it a lot. That's a game that doesn't glorify war despite where its set.

I've played WW2 games, and I've shoot at Germans in WW2 games, and I haven't feel bad while doing so. But there is an argument to be made about how it's a bit uncomfortable to see how happily you kill them, and how you do so while hearing an inspiring song in the background, as if the people there were all fullblown nazis that volunteered to fight in the way. And then you have the later stages of the war, where the government was sending everyone capable of holding a gun to the front and the presence of child soldiers became more and more prominent.

Imagine exchanging fire against a group of soldiers shooting from a barricade, and finding out they're like 14 years old when you inspect their bodies.

Seeing the trailer of BFV, I have to agree with a friend of mine that said that he'd have liked the game to be a steampunk "what if" version of WW2. The game already had wacky stuff like the robotic arm and a lacrosse version of Niggan's bat, both worn by the woman that saves the player character at the end of the reveal trailer. Going full fantasy would probably work well if they're planning to fill everything with weird cosmetic stuff.

Weltall Zero · May 25, 2018

RalchAC said:
For better or worse, Nazis are the closest that has ever existed in modern history to a "comic book villain" so to speak. Looking from the current perspective and without insight about the actual hows and whys of Hitler's rise to power, it's hard to believe that someone as clearly evil as the nazis could have been elected.

I haven't played BF1, but how does this game portray WW1? That was a war without a clear good and bad side, since it was the direct consequence of a complicated web of loyalties and arrangements made "under the table" so to speak that was bound to explode in everyone's faces sooner or later. I have played Valiant Hearts, and I actually enjoyed it a lot. That's a game that doesn't glorify war despite where its set.

I'm the same, haven't played any BF games (hate first person games, hate shooters, and specifically hate military shooters), but I played Valiant Hears (haven't completed it yet, fell by the wayside like so many others) and it was so refreshing to have a game that portrays war as the horror it is, especially for civilians.

RalchAC said:
I've played WW2 games, and I've shoot at Germans in WW2 games, and I haven't feel bad while doing so. But there is an argument to be made about how it's a bit uncomfortable to see how happily you kill them, and how you do so while hearing an inspiring song in the background, as if the people there were all fullblown nazis that volunteered to fight in the way. And then you have the later stages of the war, where the government was sending everyone capable of holding a gun to the front and the presence of child soldiers became more and more prominent.

Imagine exchanging fire against a group of soldiers shooting from a barricade, and finding out they're like 14 years old when you inspect their bodies.

I've always made this argument too, and you don't even need to have them be kids: soldiers fight for their country, not necessarily share its ideology. It's kind of odd that a lot of gamers seem to have these two conflicting needs regarding their opponets: they want them to look as human as possible, while also dehumanizing them as much as possible so they can enjoy killing them. I'm not sure that paints a positive outlook of the average gamer psyche...

In other news, watch me being shat on for suggesting people should speak up when women are harassed, and also shat on for (apparently) suggesting (?) people should not speak up when women are harassed.

cosmicblizzard · May 25, 2018

Dmax3901 said:
I've said this in a few different threads so apologies for repeating myself but BF1 going to WWI is definitely one of the first times I've felt uncomfortable about a real war being depicted in a video game. WWII was obviously terrible and a lot of atrocities were committed, but it at least has that through-line of a 'good cause' i.e. stopping the Nazis. WWI is just incomprehensible, nonsensical, pointless horror from beginning to end and to see it portrayed as 'fun' was always a little jarring to me.

I don't know if I really agree with that. Stopping an awful ideology shouldn't be used as a means to sanitize atrocities vs a perceivably pointless conflict, and the Holocaust and Unit 731 on their own blows all the atrocities of WWI away. The common ground for depictions in the media is still "combat is fun!" There's really no difference between depicting WWI and WWII fun there, which could be deemed insensitive to some.

Pyccko · May 25, 2018

Saucycarpdog said:
(credit to Lost for this amazing photo.)

Kinda looks like Phil Fish. Pretty amazing photo.

Bricks · May 25, 2018

I'll be honest, I watched the BF V trailer without knowing the game would take place during WW II, and thought it was a Valkyria Chronicles-like setting. Pretty cool, I said, something different than usual for a shooter. Then I read more about the it, and chuckled.

4859 · May 25, 2018

OhSatan said:
"From the depths of hell in silence
Cast their spells, explosive violence
Russian night time flight perfected
Flawless vision, undetected"

Night Bomber Regiment 588
Nachthexen

Germans were scared dead of women flying wooden planes, they gave them the name night witches because of the fear they had of them.

But yeah the problem is that the all male war is form the american perspective mostly true and the world sees this in the movies and tv.

Weltall Zero · May 25, 2018

The topic of the moment in the thread I linked above seems to be whether it's better or worse for bystanders to stand up to others being abused. Frankly I'm shocked that this is even a question, but in case I'm missing anything, do any women here think it's better for other players to do nothing if they are harassed like the ones in that thread?

rras1994 · May 25, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
The topic of the moment in the thread I linked above seems to be whether it's better or worse for bystanders to stand up to others being abused. Frankly I'm shocked that this is even a question, but in case I'm missing anything, do any women here think it's better for other players to do nothing if they are harassed like the ones in that thread?

No, quite frankly when the others ignore it, it's makes you feel like they agree with it.

Weltall Zero · May 25, 2018

rras1994 said:
No, quite frankly when the others ignore it, it's makes you feel like they agree with it.

I hate to direct people from one thread to another, but it might not be a bad idea for some of you to give your two cents in that thread. Frankly it seems like it's nothing but mansplaining and mantheorycrafting there. :/

rras1994 · May 25, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
I hate to direct people from one thread to another, but it might not be a bad idea for some of you to give your two cents in that thread. Frankly it seems like it's nothing but mansplaining and mantheorycrafting there. :/

I suspect they will tell me I'm wrong, and that I should just ignore it like a good little girl (main reason don't really do online, or voice chat), but I have done so.

Weltall Zero · May 25, 2018

OK, so the people telling me that we should not speak up when women are being harassed ended up exposing themselves as not really giving a damn and preferring to shuffle responsibility and blame elsewhere (also, getting banned). False alarm.

Thorrgal · May 26, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
They are not there "for their ideas". Both sides are as as manipulative as their unmitigated drooling idiocy allows them, which is par for the course for our politicians, but if you believe they were jailed "for their ideas", it would seem you've already fallen for one of the sides' propaganda.

I've felt this way with pretty much every war game, frankly. I think WWII might feel less shocking because we're so used to it being gamified all the time, even before videogames even existed. If anything, one would think WWII is a worse one to make games out of it, since it's both more recent and, well, the Nazis' atrocities easily causing nightmares in adults just by reading about them.

In fact what you just said highlights something that is extremelly dangerous on second thought. By referring to WWII over and over in fictional media, it becomes the "prototypal war" in the popular subconscious, and in turn this generalizes its properties over other wars; specifically, as you said, that it was the closest we got to a "just" war, with a just purpose, and one that was actually accomplished at that. This is an anomaly, a weird outlier; most wars don't involve a clearly "right" and a clearly "wrong" side, and accomplish nothing but insane death and destruction for both sides. By planting the idea that WWII's "justness" and "usefulness" may be common properties in wars, people become far more receptive to supporting further war efforts by their countries.

Yeah, good times with the "both sides" narrative..

Seems clear to me who has fallen for the propaganda

Weltall Zero · May 26, 2018

Thorrgal said:
Yeah, good times with the "both sides" narrative..

Seems clear to me who has fallen for the propaganda

Are you seriously comparing PP vs independentism to Feminism vs GamerGate?

Also exactly whose propaganda are you implying I've fallen for? :D

Thorrgal · May 26, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
Are you seriously comparing PP vs independentism to Feminism vs GamerGate?

Also exactly whose propaganda are you implying I've fallen for? :D

What is that you find amusing? Nothing is a laughing matter here.

You got your "both sides" reference way of, nothing to do with gamergate intended ... although creating a false dichotomy is the oldest trick in the book.

I've been conscious of our struggle for 40 plus years and part of the activism for over 30, so whatever you think you know that I don't...you don't.

Edit:I thought you were from catalonia and speaking first hand on the issue. I see you are not so...how do you even pretend to understand the issues at hand?? What a waste of time.

Weltall Zero · May 26, 2018

Thorrgal said:
What is that you find amusing? Nothing is a laughing matter here.

There is no one single thing regarding Spanish politics that doesn't evoke laughter (and tears). But specifically, what I find amusing is that you accuse me of falling for propaganda. So I must repeat my question, whose propaganda?

Thorrgal said:
I've been conscious of our struggle for 40 plus years and part of the activism for over 30, so whatever you think you know that I don't...you don't.

Those sure are the words of someone who's not fallen for any propaganda. The only thing those numbers tell me is that you're too far indoctrinated to ever come out of it, which is sad, but all too common. Keep fighting the good fight, comrade.

RalchAC · May 26, 2018

Thorrgal said:
What is that you find amusing? Nothing is a laughing matter here.

You got your "both sides" reference way of, nothing to do with gamergate intended ... although creating a false dichotomy is the oldest trick in the book.

I've been conscious of our struggle for 40 plus years and part of the activism for over 30, so whatever you think you know that I don't...you don't.

Edit:I thought you were from catalonia and speaking first hand on the issue. I see you are not so...how do you even pretend to understand the issues at hand?? What a waste of time.

The reality is that people haven't been imprisioned for their ideas. They've been exposing their ideas for years, decades even, and the last few years saw a rise in hostility between Catalonia and the Spanish Government. That Spanish government has done an absolutely awful job at managing the present situation, and I think a Referendum should have been done (with at least 60 to 40 majority needed for Independence, and an alternative route in case the result was closer to even split that included the renegotiation of the current legislation and authority split between the central and regional government), but that doesn't change what happened. And what happened is that a certain subset of people were told not to hold a referendum by both the Executive and Judicial branches of the government, they did it anyway and now they're in jail because they broke the law. Which is what happens to people when they break the law, unless they're the brother in law of that person whose surname starts with B and ends with orbón.

I'm not from Catalonia, but I'm from a certain region, that lies below it and has a shared literature, history and language with yours. I'm aware and respect those that think that there is a reason and motivations for a possible independence in Catalonia. Cultural reasons, mainly. I don't share them, but I know people that do and I fully accept them. If you've been taking part of activism for over 30 years, I imagine those cultural reasons, which are what truly define a nation as such are what drove you to raise your voice.

But this whole chain of events didn't happen because of those reasons. It happened because a conservative party called CiU saw that his voting base had been shrinking for the last 10 years and decided to push the most populist and downright hipocrital rethoric that could have been thought by his leaders in order to avoid an eventual fall into irrelevance. And because that situation was coupled with the rise to power to a party led by an incompetent and a coward that managed this whole situation in the worst way possible at all times.

If you think my lineage isn't good enough to have an opinion about these things, feel free to say so.

Xaszatm · May 26, 2018

Uh...not that I think this isn't a good conversation but we are drifting very off topic.

We_care_a_lot · May 26, 2018

As soon as I got the xof uniform for quiet I just put that on her. Made the game much less embarrassing but pretty much all of her cut scenes are still weird and gross

esserius · May 26, 2018

We_care_a_lot said:
As soon as I got the xof uniform for quiet I just put that on her. Made the game much less embarrassing but pretty much all of her cut scenes are still weird and gross

Yeah, this is sort of an issue with objectified characters. Pretty often, simply swapping out a costume just makes the problem that much more obvious.

I wish it were possible to do a similar model swap for characters in XC2, since it'd be so much easier than having to explain the problem ad nauseam (particularly regarding how characters act and how the camera performs gender).

Morrigan · May 26, 2018

Xaszatm said:
Uh...not that I think this isn't a good conversation but we are drifting very off topic.

Aye, please take this to PM or make another thread. Thanks. ( Weltall Zero Thorrgal RalchAC )

Xaszatm · May 26, 2018

Going back to SNK Fighter Gals, the portrayal of the women in the game annoys me so much. And no, it's not just the fanservice (though that definitely doesn't help) because I know that many of the characters have fanservice moments. It's the sheer lack of agency shown in the artwork and story and everything. To illustrate this, let's look at the two official artworks for this game. One showing them in their traditional outfits, and the fanservice one:

Now, Mai is still fanservice heavy but all characters are showing their personality with the movements, clothing design, facial expression, and pose. Now let's look at the fanservice pictures:

All in the same pose, all more indignant and angry, all agency lost in the showing. It's this lack of agency and the clear fact that no one actually wants to be wearing these clothing items that makes this game just so much more skivvy than even normal ecchi fanservice heavy games because at least with those the women actually want to be there. (And yes, I know, not a real character. But if you're going to make a fanservice game, why are you writing the girls to be unwilling? It's just so creepy)

esserius · May 26, 2018

Xaszatm said:
All in the same pose, all more indignant and angry, all agency lost in the showing. It's this lack of agency and the clear fact that no one actually wants to be wearing these clothing items that makes this game just so much more skivvy than even normal ecchi fanservice heavy games because at least with those the women actually want to be there. (And yes, I know, not a real character. But if you're going to make a fanservice game, why are you writing the girls to be unwilling? It's just so creepy)

It makes sense, if this is the market you're selling to:

What we have not seen, however, are good consumer comparisons overseas to the psychologically tortured Japanese subcultures like contemporary otaku or the yankii/gyaru. Mass market anime like Naruto and Gundam are relatively easy to export as they were built for "normal" youth. That cannot be said about moe titles that are meant to satisfy older men obsessed with two-dimensional elementary school girls. Similarly, no gyaru clothing brand has more retail stores overseas than the avant-garde Comme des Garçons, despite gyaru clothing's huge business in Japan and CDG's highly-limited audience. At least from what we have seen from the big subcultural moments in the last decade, the culture of Japan's marginal pluralities is almost unexportable.

And the reality is, all that's being discovered by creating games like these is that this lack of exportability remains. People who are not into moe culture are going to find SNK Heroines shit creepy as hell, and rightfully so.

Currently, the most conspicuous Japanese culture of otaku and yankii represents value sets with little connection to affluent consumers elsewhere. Most men around the world are not wracked by such deep status insecurity that they want to live in a world where chesty two-dimensional 12 year-old girls grovel at their feet and call them big brother. The average university student in Paris is likely to read Murakami Haruki and may listen to a Japanese DJ but not wear silky long cocktail dresses or fake eyelashes from a brand created by a 23 year-old former divorcee hostess with two kids. Overseas consumers remain affluent, educated, and open to Japanese culture, but Japan's pop culture complex — by increasingly catering to marginal groups (or ignoring global tastes, which is another problem altogether) — is less likely to create products relevant for them.

It's almost ironic, that so much of it stems from insecurity, but the problem is that the promotion of it reinforces that same insecurity and as a result creates a situation of continually doubling down. If it is simply a lack of cultural confidence, the necessity then becomes about re-finding something the society sees as lost, but also forcing the culture out of a self-inflicted negative spiral. And right now, it seems like the path of least resistance, the path of reinforcing insecurity in culture, remains dominant.

Xaszatm · May 26, 2018

esserius said:
It makes sense, if this is the market you're selling to:

And the reality is, all that's being discovered by creating games like these is that this lack of exportability remains. People who are not into moe culture are going to find SNK Heroines shit creepy as hell, and rightfully so.

It's almost ironic, that so much of it stems from insecurity, but the problem is that the promotion of it reinforces that same insecurity and as a result creates a situation of continually doubling down. If it is simply a lack of cultural confidence, the necessity then becomes about re-finding something the society sees as lost, but also forcing the culture out of a self-inflicted negative spiral. And right now, it seems like the path of least resistance, the path of reinforcing insecurity in culture, remains dominant.

But but but people in the other thread says that anime is the most influential thing evar!!!!! It's amazing how irrelevant Japanese media is making itself by catering to these people more and more.

esserius · May 26, 2018

Xaszatm said:
But but but people in the other thread says that anime is the most influential thing evar!!!!! It's amazing how irrelevant Japanese media is making itself by catering to these people more and more.

Reality is tough... though I suppose they'll take solace in chesty 12-year olds calling them onii-san.

petran79 · May 26, 2018

Xaszatm said:
But but but people in the other thread says that anime is the most influential thing evar!!!!! It's amazing how irrelevant Japanese media is making itself by catering to these people more and more.

esserius said:
Reality is tough... though I suppose they'll take solace in chesty 12-year olds calling them onii-san.

Those games remind me of previous decades when sexual and anti-gay jokes were more abundant in media and there was not any awareness of pedophiles. One reason many parents refuse to leave their kids roam free nowadays, even when going to school.

Deleted member 5535 · May 26, 2018

Xaszatm said:
But but but people in the other thread says that anime is the most influential thing evar!!!!! It's amazing how irrelevant Japanese media is making itself by catering to these people more and more.

Uh, yes, it is. Even many of the ones created in 2000s or 2010s with many success both in the manga space and as an anime. Precure, Yokai Watch, Bleach, To Love Ru, Aikatsu, Pripara, Attack on Titan, Yotsuba, haikyuu, Love Live, Tokyo ghoul, Madoka Magika, gintama, Death Note, Nanatsu no Taizai, Fairy Tail and so many things that sold very well in different levels and with some of those being influent. Netflix, Amazon, Crunchyroll and many streaming services also wouldn't license and fund projects if it wasn't reliable for them (just like for the committee in general) or the same for manga with company licensors in many countries in the world.

Also, Japan literally uses anime and manga as a promotion to turism. Unlike what is said, those two are part of Japan culture for decades and used to attract turists since then as a form of culture with many of those franchises that have those elements.

cosmicblizzard · May 26, 2018

Yeah, anime is pretty damn big these days. Gigguk had a pretty good video on it last year and this year is likely going to be another moment of exponential growth due to Netflix seriously throwing their hat in the ring with stuff like Devilman Crybaby.

Xaszatm · May 26, 2018

Nemesis162 said:
Uh, yes, it is. Even many of the ones created in 2000s or 2010s with many success both in the manga space and as an anime. Precure, Yokai Watch, Bleach, To Love Ru, Aikatsu, Pripara, Attack on Titan, Yotsuba, haikyuu, Love Live, Tokyo ghoul, Madoka Magika, gintama, Death Note, Nanatsu no Taizai, Fairy Tail and so many things that sold very well in different levels and with some of those being influent. Netflix, Amazon, Crunchyroll and many streaming services also wouldn't license and fund projects if it wasn't reliable for them (just like for the committee in general) or the same for manga with company licensors in many countries in the world.

Also, Japan literally uses anime and manga as a promotion to turism. Unlike what is said, those two are part of Japan culture for decades and used to attract turists since then as a form of culture with many of those franchises that have those elements.

You're really going to make this the hill you die on, huh? Because success =/= mainstream.

esserius · May 26, 2018

Nemesis162 said:
Uh, yes, it is. Even many of the ones created in 2000s or 2010s with many success both in the manga space and as an anime. Precure, Yokai Watch, Bleach, To Love Ru, Aikatsu, Pripara, Attack on Titan, Yotsuba, haikyuu, Love Live, Tokyo ghoul, Madoka Magika, gintama, Death Note, Nanatsu no Taizai, Fairy Tail and so many things that sold very well in different levels and with some of those being influent. Netflix, Amazon, Crunchyroll and many streaming services also wouldn't license and fund projects if it wasn't reliable for them (just like for the committee in general) or the same for manga with company licensors in many countries in the world.

Also, Japan literally uses anime and manga as a promotion to turism. Unlike what is said, those two are part of Japan culture for decades and used to attract turists since then as a form of culture with many of those franchises that have those elements.

There were over 200 shows last year alone. The fact that maybe ten shows in the past ten years (or more) have seen any lasting success is pretty much proof that anime is not where you go if you want a bankable franchise. This is not a market people want to be in right now, with over 25% of all studios losing money. If you want a one-off that will almost assuredly lose money? Anime is the way to go. Crunchyroll and Netflix, while they are producing some anime, the majority of their revenue is not from anime, but from ads.

Out of Crunchyroll's 10,000,000 monthly visitors, only 200,000 or so actually pay for the service. That means more than 90 percent never give Crunchyroll any money. That's not a problem for Gao or the anime industry, however. The ads free members see make up the difference, so publishers earn just as much as they would with subscribers.

The CEO won't reveal how much is actually going back into the industry, only that there is money going back into it. That's obviously a positive, but without clear numbers, and the clear reality that more than 25% of all studios are losing money and employees, anime certainly doesn't seem like an industry you'd want to be in. Crunchyroll might be an exception, but they're largely a licensor and publisher, not a producer (Netflix is an exception here, given they actually produced Devilman Crybaby and have plans for other shows). Either way, Crunchyroll or Amazon or Netflix isn't buoying the industry nearly enough to make it profitable.

Deleted member 5535 · May 27, 2018

esserius said:
There were over 200 shows last year alone. The fact that maybe ten shows in the past ten years (or more) have seen any lasting success is pretty much proof that anime is not where you go if you want a bankable franchise. This is not a market people want to be in right now, with over 25% of all studios losing money. If you want a one-off that will almost assuredly lose money? Anime is the way to go. Crunchyroll and Netflix, while they are producing some anime, the majority of their revenue is not from anime, but from ads.

The CEO won't reveal how much is actually going back into the industry, only that there is money going back into it. That's obviously a positive, but without clear numbers, and the clear reality that more than 25% of all studios are losing money and employees, anime certainly doesn't seem like an industry you'd want to be in. Crunchyroll might be an exception, but they're largely a licensor and publisher, not a producer (Netflix is an exception here, given they actually produced Devilman Crybaby and have plans for other shows). Either way, Crunchyroll or Amazon or Netflix isn't buoying the industry nearly enough to make it profitable.

Not sure why you're ignoring manga in my post. lol

Also, there's much more than 10 anime success in the last 10 year for companies considering the sequels for many anime and the fact that many anime got funded since then, with anime production companies like Aniplex and Bandai Visual exceding in profit on it and many companies not from the industry like Kadokawa, Shueisha, Bandai Namco and publishers in general getting success funding different productions and this showing on their results as well.

reality that more than 25% of all studios are losing money and employees, anime certainly doesn't seem like an industry you'd want to be in

The companies who fund anime aren't studios for the majority of it (with some exceptions like Toei, Pierrot, Kyoani, Sunrise and some other big ones). The production studios are paid by the production committee of the anime to do that since they're a contractor for the most part with a budget going for the studio and most of it going to ads and to pay the broadcast of it. The ones funding it which are manga publishers, TV companies, Music companies, Advertisers and companies from different industries are the ones who suffer for a failure since they're the ones funding it but they wouldn't go out because it is profitable for them and the promotion seems to do well for them (which is the main reason for anime existence after all in adaptations which are the majority).

My point is, those companies will continue to fund it and while a studio loses money, it's because they're not the owner of the anime for the most part.

And many anime studios are owned by other companies. Sunrise for example is owned by Bandai Namco holdings, Sega is the owner of TMS Entertainment and you have many studios owned by companies of other industries and because of that, they have more securities.

I do agree that the condition of work in the studio needs to get better but that's another case and that's on the management of the studios to resolve this problem that exist for 40 years.

Crunchyroll might be an exception, but they're largely a licensor and publisher, not a producer

Uh, what? Crunchyroll is the western company with more presence in the committee of different anime. In fact, they're the only one that constantly appears. As a example, here's the shows that they funded and because of it, got exclusive streaming rights:

A Place Further Than The Universe
Media Factory, Madhouse, Crunchyroll/Sumimoto, docomo anime store, AT-X, Kadokawa Media House, Movic, NewGin, Sony Music Communications

Citrus
Ichijinsha, Children's Playground Entertainment, Crunchyroll/Sumimoto, Lantis, Klockworx, Tokyo MX, Sotsu, Happinet, AT-X, BS Fuji

How to keep a Mummy
TBS, Crunchyroll/Sumimoto, Kanon, Eight-bit, Exit Tunes

Junji Ito: Collection
Yomuri TV Enterprises, Muse Communication, Crunchyroll/Sumimoto, Smiral Animation, Nippon Columbia, Studio Deen, Pony Canyon Enterprises, Asahi Shimbun

Katana Maidens
Genco, Kadokawa Shoten, Square Enix, Crunchyroll, My Theatre DD, Studio Gokumi, Glovision, MBS, AT-X, Magical Kingdom Anime

Yuru Camp
FuRyu, Crunchyroll/Sumimoto, AT-X, BS11, MAGES, 81 Produce, Sony Music Communications

Ms. Koizumi Loves Ramen Noodles
Children's Playground Entertainment, Crunchyroll/Sumimoto, Takeshobo, Flying Dog, AT-X, Avex Pictures, Cygames, Sotsu, Tokyo MX, Klockworx, Keio Agency

Magical Girl Ore
Fusion Product, Crunchyroll/Sumimoto, Bandai Namco Arts, My Theatre DD, AT-X, Klockworx, Comedia, Genco, Amazing Earth Animation

(Netflix is an exception here, given they actually produced Devilman Crybaby and have plans for other shows)

They didn't. Just like many of their series and other projects outside of anime, they just bought it after it was planned and out of pre-production. Devilman Crybaby was produced by Aniplex and Dynamic Planning who are part of the committee and credited as such in the opening of the anime and the same is true for AICO the incarnation that have it's own committee as well.[/quote]

esserius · May 27, 2018

Nemesis162 None of your extensive response gets at the heart of the issue. Please provide some data that shows anime are not largely flopping. I've already provided plenty of info that shows the industry is struggling. I apologize for getting some of the minutia wrong, but that's not the problem here, nor the point of the discussion. You're missing the forest for the trees.

Also, I'm ignoring manga because it isn't the industry we're discussing.

Deleted member 5535 · May 27, 2018

esserius said:
Nemesis162 None of your extensive response gets at the heart of the issue. Please provide some data that shows anime are not largely flopping. I've already provided plenty of info that shows the industry is struggling. I apologize for getting some of the minutia wrong, but that's not the problem here, nor the point of the discussion.

I'm ignoring manga because it isn't the industry we're discussing.

I can't prove that except for the fact that different sequels exists, but neither you can since what makes an anime successful depends from a committe to other since those are different from each other, with different companies and in different levels of funding decided by order of placement in the credits. It can be successful because the company who had more fund on it (like Aniplex) got sales in BD/CD or in other cases, if a manga publisher like Shueisha was at the top, the manga got a boost and because of it, it was successful. Anime is a success by different measures of those companies, not just the anime itself (since most of those companies aren't actually part of the industry) but manga, Light Novel, games, mobile games, CD sales, turism and many other source of income and revenue that can make an anime a success for the companies involved. So, like I said, it really depends since it's so variable and we can't measure it at all since we don't have access for every one of those things except for manga, LN and BD/CD sales but even then, we don't know their expectations.

Picking one of my examples, A Place further than the universe needs a success in the manga adaptations, BD or in streaming to be considered a success by the companies involved.

Those companies continue to invest on this media and if you look at their financial report, they're not struggling at all. Kadokawa, Square Enix, Shueisha, Aniplex, Bandai Namco, Sammy, Ichijinsha, nitroplus, TV Tokyo, Fuji TV and many others are plenty good investing and being part of pre-production since this is just another industry where they get promotion for their main business while participating on those anime. Now, you're right about studios in general but they're not the one that fund it in 80% of the cases and because of it, they're not that relevant if a anime is a success or not since most of it is a adaptation and even the originals have participation of other companies.

esserius · May 27, 2018

Nemesis162 So anime is extremely unlikely to actually be successful by itself, and without other industries propping it up (and otaku), it's going to fail. You're really not making a convincing argument for the health of the industry, and the cherry picking just makes it look worse. I have actual statistics showing the anime industry isn't doing well, your roundabout denial of them is also telling, as well as the issues inherent in trying to create an industry with patchwork funding models as the primary means of production.

Why is it that you're so desperate to prop up this false narrative anyway? I don't see how it's helpful to pretend the industry is healthy when it isn't.

Twig · May 27, 2018

The anime industry is fucked up and inevitably fucked unless they drastically change things.

This is a pretty widely accepted thing. Even and especially among fans of anime. There is no fighting against it. No matter how much you love anime, no matter how many cherries you can pick, the tree is dying. Something's gonna pop soon. It's unsustainable.

None of that means anime isn't influential or can't be good.

Oddish1 · May 27, 2018

It's odd to say that anime is struggling because it's the largest it's ever been but it likely isn't sustainable. It's not going to go away or anything but this is probably the largest anime is ever going to be.

esserius · May 27, 2018

Oddish1 said:
It's odd to say that anime is struggling because it's the largest it's ever been but it likely isn't sustainable. It's not going to go away or anything but this is probably the largest anime is ever going to be.

I don't think it's odd(ish?) at all, when more than 80% of your workforce is leaving in the first three years of work and is being paid horrendously besides.

I apologize for my horrible puns. I regret nothing.

Deleted member 5535 · May 27, 2018

esserius said:
Nemesis162 So anime is extremely unlikely to actually be successful by itself, and without other industries propping it up (and otaku), it's going to fail. You're really not making a convincing argument for the health of the industry, and the cherry picking just makes it look worse. I have actual statistics showing the anime industry isn't doing well, your roundabout denial of them is also telling, as well as the issues inherent in trying to create an industry with patchwork funding models as the primary means of production.

Why is it that you're so desperate to prop up this false narrative anyway? I don't see how it's helpful to pretend the industry is healthy when it isn't.

Twig said:
The anime industry is fucked up and inevitably fucked unless they drastically change things.

This is a pretty widely accepted thing. Even and especially among fans of anime. There is no fighting against it. No matter how much you love anime, no matter how many cherries you can pick, the tree is dying. Something's gonna pop soon. It's unsustainable.

None of that means anime isn't influential or can't be good.

Yes, that's how anime always existed. For more than 30 years, anime is funded by companies that aren't part of the industry or companies that aren't studios. You know Evangelion? Funded by King Records, a music company. You know the ghibli movies? Funded by Toho since the beginning. Anime is made and is successful for decades because of the interest of those companies in their own markets. That's how it always happened and if you know how a committee works, you'll understand. I'm trying to explain it but you don't accept for some reason.

Because like I'm already saying for different posts, studios don't fund it, they just produce the anime. What makes this industry exist is the Production Committee which pay for it and because of that, they are the ones who get the income and money as well as the loss of money since they have different rights of it (if an studio is part of the committee, they get as well). If those companies that are outside of the industry don't fund anime, there's no anime. Anime only exists because those companies fund the existence of them since the studios for it's majority can't pay for broadcast, ads and for the creation of an anime series which is extreme expensive for them.

That's why I'm saying that if those companies are fine, anime will still exist since they can contract any studio to make anime for them.

here's an extensive example of what and why committee are so important.
https://blog.sakugabooru.com/2017/05/02/what-is-an-animes-production-committee/

esserius · May 27, 2018

Nemesis162 said:
Yes, that's how anime always existed. For more than 30 years, anime is funded by companies that aren't part of the industry or companies that aren't studios. You know Evangelion? Funded by King Records, a music company. You know the ghibli movies? Funded by Toho since the beginning. Anime is made and is successful for decades because of the interest of those companies in their own markets. That's how it always happened and if you know how a committee works, you'll understand. I'm trying to explain it but you don't accept for some reason.

Because like I'm already saying for different posts, studios don't fund it, they just produce the anime. What makes this industry exist is the Production Committee which pay for it and because of that, they are the ones who get the income and money as well as the loss of money since they have different rights of it (if an studio is part of the committee, they get as well). If those companies that are outside of the industry don't fund anime, there's no anime. Anime only exists because those companies fund the existence of them since the studios for it's majority can't pay for broadcast, ads and for the creation of an anime series which is extreme expensive for them.

That's why I'm saying that if those companies are fine, anime will still exist since they can contract any studio to make anime for them.

here's an extensive example of what and why committee are so important.
https://blog.sakugabooru.com/2017/05/02/what-is-an-animes-production-committee/

And I'm trying to tell you this isn't a healthy business model. I am certain anime will exist ten or even twenty years from now. But just existing does not mean the industry is healthy. In fact, if that's the best an industry can do, it's struggling. And what you're basically establishing is that this is how it's always been, which just makes the situation sound like it's even worse.

And worse still? This seems to actually be affecting their creative enterprises even more broadly than just anime (though it seems to be even worse for anime): http://variety.com/2016/film/asia/japan-production-committee-filmmaking-low-quality-1201771415/
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/in...discusses-production-committee-system/.117694

I suppose it makes more sense why the market would pander so much more if the only goal is to fulfill conservative corporate interests, but it has led to an extremely stagnant and largely bankrupt creative market, that seems to be shedding workers at an extraordinary rate as well as failing frequently to even meet basic expectations, domestically or abroad. As that Neojapon article stated earlier, you cannot market fetishes about 12-year old girls to a wider audience. And you will, eventually, exhaust the creeper market.

Layered · May 27, 2018

I always see the argument that sexualised female characters are fine if they're designed by a female or if someone at the helm of a game is female and I just don't quite get it. I get that to a certain extent the male gaze works by having texts for heterosexual men produced by heterosexual men; but that doesn't mean a female designer can't reflect the dominant ideology? I don't know.

The idea that women can't, in theory, objectify other females is something that I just don't agree with. I don't think they do it intentionally, but if the popular media around them (that sexualises women) is their inspiration then it's easy to see how they get there.

I most commonly see it with Bayonetta when people mention Mari Shimazaki being a character designer, which is a bad example since Bayonetta's sexuality is part of her character but i've definitely heard it with other characters.

If this is stupid, please dismiss but it's always something that's conflicted me.

cosmicblizzard · May 27, 2018

Anime can simultaneously have more fans than ever before and also exist within a completely unsustainable model that the entire Japanese side of the industry follows. As that Gigguk video I posted mentions, stuff like illegal streaming sites have a higher visit count than Hulu, and there's plenty of other factors involved as well.

That isn't to say lack of base profitability makes a market unsustainable. Youtube for example has been operating at a loss since it started, but Google finds it beneficial in other ways which leads to less tangible profits that aren't readily apparent to an outside observer. Anime is similar with merchandising and stuff.

Anyway, the bubble will probably pop. but just what that entails is hard to say. The international market has become pretty important and that could be the wild card the industry needs to survive, particularly Netflix. But of course international presence won't matter if working conditions gets so bad that stuff just stops getting made.

esserius · May 27, 2018

Layered said:
I always see the argument that sexualised female characters are fine if they're designed by a female or if someone at the helm of a game is female and I just don't quite get it. I get that to a certain extent the male gaze works by having texts for heterosexual men produced by heterosexual men; but that doesn't mean a female designer can't reflect the dominant ideology? I don't know.

The idea that women can't, in theory, objectify other females is something that I just don't agree with. I don't think they do it intentionally, but if the popular media around them (that sexualises women) is their inspiration then it's easy to see how they get there.

I most commonly see it with Bayonetta when people mention Mari Shimazaki being a character designer, which is a bad example since Bayonetta's sexuality is part of her character but i've definitely heard it with other characters.

If this is stupid, please dismiss but it's always something that's conflicted me.

Women can absolutely objectify other women. I'd say it's less common, but yeah, when you're raised in an environment that normalizes objectification (which is still most societies), it can be difficult to even realize when you're doing it. Using it as a defense however is a red herring, effectively avoiding engaging with the issue of objectification.

Also worth noting that in many cases these women are not necessarily designing for themselves, but at the behest of someone else. In Bayonetta's case, Shimazaki was not the final arbiter of the design and as such, the problems resulting from the designs are likely the result of higher ups (almost always males) making decisions about the design. Kamiya is not really an exception in this regard. Amano, Kaori Tanaka, and other famous Japanese game artists have been vocal about this on occasion.

Layered · May 27, 2018

esserius said:
Women can absolutely objectify other women. I'd say it's less common, but yeah, when you're raised in an environment that normalizes objectification (which is still most societies), it can be difficult to even realize when you're doing it. Using it as a defense however is a red herring, effectively avoiding engaging with the issue of objectification.

Totally! I don't think it's a valid rebuttal to objectification at all. It's just something that whenever it came up in discussions around female representation I never felt qualified to respond to since...I just don't know what to think of it.

Although, those people probably don't even deserve much of a response.

esserius said:
Also worth noting that in many cases these women are not necessarily designing for themselves, but at the behest of someone else. In Bayonetta's case, Shimazaki was not the final arbiter of the design and as such, the problems resulting from the designs are likely the result of higher ups (almost always males) making decisions about the design. Kamiya is not really an exception in this regard. Amano, Kaori Tanaka, and other famous Japanese game artists have been vocal about this on occasion.

That's disappointing, but not unexpected. I remember assuming Bayonetta having glasses was because it goes against beauty standards but later realising that it was simply that Kamiya thinking glasses were attractive on girls is unfortunate.

Twig · May 27, 2018

Nemesis162 said:
Yes, that's how anime always existed.

Anime spawned forth from the ether as an enormous machine pumping out content appealing to creepos horning over preteen girls?

Anime started by creating hundreds of series a year with little to no concern for the people employed to create it?

Think about what you're implying here, thanks.

Nemesis162 said:
they are the ones who get the income and money as well as the loss of money

lmao pls

The people taking the biggest hits are almost NEVER the ones farming out the work.

From your avatar I can only assume that you like anime. Think about it for a moment from the perspective of someone who doesn't. Are you seriously trying to say that you think the work conditions for animators, etc. are sustainable? Combined with being forced to make shitty anime after shitty anime for a niche audience with very specific needs?

Deleted member 5535 · May 27, 2018

Twig said:
Anime spawned forth from the ether as an enormous machine pumping out content appealing to creepos horning over preteen girls?

Anime started by creating hundreds of series a year with little to no concern for the people employed to create it?

Think about what you're implying here, thanks.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not saying anything about what you said. I'm talking about companies and their funding on the media for decades since and before the incorporation of the production committee model in anime and you're talking about sexualization when I never mentioned anything about it in any of my posts.

And wow, how to miss a point and reduct an entire post. I don't see this happening that often.

lmao pls

The people taking the biggest hits are almost NEVER the ones farming out the work.

From your avatar I can only assume that you like anime. Think about it for a moment from the perspective of someone who doesn't. Are you seriously trying to say that you think the work conditions for animators, etc. are sustainable? Combined with being forced to make shitty anime after shitty anime for a niche audience with very specific needs?

You're the one who don't know anything about how it works and it clearly shows in what you just posted. The committee companies are the ones who fund, get the money because they have the rights and yes, if it's a failure, they're the one who get the hit. hell, the committee exists for that very reason that if it's a failure, those companies wouldn't lose more money than what they would do if they invested in it alone. The studios don't get it because for the most part they're not funding it and part of the committee and just get the budget of the anime as a payment to them so if it's a success or not, it doesn't matter for them (of course, if they're on the committee, that's another story)

Like I said before, read about what it is because for now you don't have any idea what you're talking about
https://blog.sakugabooru.com/2017/05/02/what-is-an-animes-production-committee/

And I don't know where I said that I agree with the work conditions of animators. I said in my past post that I agree that this needs to get better but this is on the studio management, not on companies that fund anime and don't have anything to do with other companies. Except in cases where theyre owned by other companies like Bandai Namco with Sunrise/Actas/Bandai Namco Pictures or Sega with Marza/TMS Entertainment.

Morrigan · May 27, 2018

Hey so... I don't know if the work conditions and sustainability of the Anime industry is really relevant to the topic anymore, guys?

Xaszatm · May 27, 2018

Morrigan said:
Hey so... I don't know if the work conditions and sustainability of the Anime industry is really relevant to the topic anymore, guys?

Well, given how our insistent poster is trying to subtly imply that because anime is 100% mainstream and the biggest thing since sliced bread, therefore any and all complaints about it should be ignored, I do think it is still on topic.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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