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ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
And I've agreed with a lot of her stuff from Tropes vs Women and the like, but this just seems a bit condescending and obnoxious. I just wonder if it really came off that heavy handed for other people (namely women) too.
While it is nice to be able to play as the FR/LG female protagonist, I was annoyed that she was not an option back in Brawl. I think Anita's overall point was that these female options (female trainer and female Pikachu) have been around long enough to have been in Smash previously.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Sebastian, the DLC guy, was only romanceable by female Hawkes.
Er, forgot about him tbh, but if we are talking main game and not extra content which he is. He's kind of a weird romance if I remember correctly in general, I don't think you can have sex with him. One path you have to wait to get married til after he get's Starkhaven which doesn't happen in game, and the other path you get to have a chaste marriage where you join the chantry or something. I'm still not sure I count it in the same vein of romance as the other ones.
 

Hadok

Member
Feb 14, 2018
5,800
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ss_6.jpg

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High heels are still there,but she looks very athletic now.
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,385
Speaking of all the Smash stuff though, I wanted to ask: What do you think of a lot of the added gender options announced by Sakurai? You know, like Female Pokemon Trainer, female pikachu, etc. I wanted to ask because I came across this tweet by Anita Sarkeesian.



And I've agreed with a lot of her stuff from Tropes vs Women and the like, but this just seems a bit condescending and obnoxious. I just wonder if it really came off that heavy handed for other people (namely women) too.


I'm glad the gender options are there, because representation options really matter for people in the long term (even when they aren't conscious of it). That said, it's certainly fair-game to poke fun at more superficial overtures from publishers, especially considering how resistant some of these same companies had been to those inclusions for decades.

I'd bet it's hard for commentators to hit a tone for that sort of quip without just seeming contrarian. For someone like Sarkeesian who put so much work into discussion about this stuff over the years, I bet this is more playful than some might think at first glance. I (unfortunately) see some of the replies to the Tweet are already hovering around at least a "7".

While it is nice to be able to play as the FR/LG female protagonist, I was annoyed that she was not an option back in Brawl. I think Anita's overall point was that these female options (female trainer and female Pikachu) have been around long enough to have been in Smash previously.

Bingo, as far as I can tell.
 

Pandora012

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,496
Oversexualization is so fucking annoying. One that immediately comes to mind is Dragon's Crown... for obvious reasons.
Not sure i agree with this sentiment regarding Dragon's Crown. Most if not all the characters were hyper sexulized, it was the style that the artist choose to go with. Personally, i actually love all of them, the characters were all beautifully done. Though, I do understand that it makes some people uncomfortable.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
I'd bet it's hard for commentators to hit a tone for that sort of quip without just seeming contrarian. For someone like Sarkeesian who put so much work into discussion about this stuff over the years, I bet this is more playful than some might think at first glance. I (unfortunately) see some of the replies to the Tweet are already hovering around at least a "7".
One of the great banes of the Internet is that text struggles to convey tone. It's why novels don't read like scripts. And Twitter, with its character limits, makes the problem that much worse, especially when it empowers people to say things they wouldn't in real life.

Take a group of these people down the pub, sit them round a table to debate, and see how things change.
 
Oct 25, 2017
485
I never quite felt the power vibe from that Zelda design. Quiet and maybe a kind of reserved confidence but I couldn't really see her as powerful either. I do agree with you on how BoTW Link stands out a bit. I really wish we got an Toon Ganon with dual swords in there. We have Zelda and Shiek with 3 different Links now in Adult, Toon and Young. :\
Toon Zelda would be nice too.

Yeah I suppose confidence is the better word for it. I haven't personally played TP but in passing/from the small design changes I always felt like Zelda and Ganondorf in that game best exemplified their representation of Wisdom and Power respectively. I have my gripes with Link that I think better knowledge of context would probably fix.

Also yeah I was under the impression that Toon Ganon would make an appearance if this was an all-new Smash game honestly (along with the likes of K. Rool and others), which honestly would be a good lead into a Toon Zelda too who could actually have a pretty varied moveset compared to Toon Link -> Link. At the very least I'm glad Hyrule Warriors knocked it out of the park in their character inclusions.
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,857
Japan
I think I like the new Zelda look in Smash Ultimate. She looks happy and a bit more expressive. Her previous look was a little too cold for my personal tastes. What do you all think of her? I also like the vambraces more than the long gloves I think. Colour stands out a bit more too.

ss_1.jpg


https://www.smashbros.com/en_GB/fighter/17.html

This feels really reminiscent of the N64/GBC era, and I would really like a full Zelda game in this style. A bit off topic, I know.
 

happibivouac

Member
Jun 1, 2018
95
Massachusetts
Not sure i agree with this sentiment regarding Dragon's Crown. Most if not all the characters were hyper sexulized, it was the style that the artist choose to go with. Personally, i actually love all of them, the characters were all beautifully done. Though, I do understand that it makes some people uncomfortable.

Just my 2 cents.
I'll give you that much that the artist's style is clearly partial to that and the art is very well done. It just doesn't seem to fit in the context of the game. This is one of those subjects that, really, I'm indifferent about. On one hand I don't care that Mai's idle fighting stance is basically her bouncing her assets everywhere and on the other that Senran Kagura is just an outrageously ridiculous series.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,131
Morizora's Forest
And I've agreed with a lot of her stuff from Tropes vs Women and the like, but this just seems a bit condescending and obnoxious. I just wonder if it really came off that heavy handed for other people (namely women) too.

I didn't like that comment partly because I don't fully understand it. I mean, these are some of the things Nintendo has been criticized of on the past. They came out opening at E3 showcasing that they are trying to be more inclusive and having some options there. Pokemon Trainer is a great addition I think and I certainly wouldn't knock it. I feel like if she had an issue I'd love to hear more about it rather than a cookie comment which is really disappointing and feels almost like bait the way she drops it without much addition while we are still riding the E3/announcement highs. I hope she has time to properly articulate her issues so I can better form an opinion on the matter because right now I kind of just enjoy the additions and don't think anything negative of pointing out some extra features. They have done the same for Corrin and Wii Fit trainer in the past also.
 

Xita

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
9,185
I just took it as them pointing out that hey you can finally play as female Pikachu and Leaf. Something I've wanted ever since the lead up to Smash 4.

As most non Pokemon fans don;t know that Pikachu Libre is a girl I didn't think twice about them mentioning it in the direct.

Yeah that reaction is a little odd.

I loved that they pointed out Leaf in particular because even GF forgets about her existence most of the time.
 

SchrodingerC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,863
Er, forgot about him tbh, but if we are talking main game and not extra content which he is. He's kind of a weird romance if I remember correctly in general, I don't think you can have sex with him. One path you have to wait to get married til after he get's Starkhaven which doesn't happen in game, and the other path you get to have a chaste marriage where you join the chantry or something. I'm still not sure I count it in the same vein of romance as the other ones.

Rival Sebastian was best Sebastian.
 

IceFireTerry

Member
Mar 17, 2018
345
When I saw the trailer, I was surprised to see no "waifu bait" but then near the end I thought, "Nah there's definitely going to be a character aimed for that audience. I just know it." Still, not a bad look so far.




Can't compare off hand, but they really upped her muscle tone it seems.

11a.png


That's a good thing in my book!



I've sure been seeing this shot get passed around. It's so cuuuute! But yeah, I thought TP Zelda fit great in Brawl which was trying to go for a dark and gritty look. I really wasn't the biggest TP fan either. When Smash 4 came out, the dull colors of her look really stood out in a bad way IMO. Didn't really feel like how Zelda should look. I think allenpergallon summed it up perfectly. TP Zelda is fine on her own in trying to be a little different, but not really the best Zelda to really represent the series as a whole..

Speaking of all the Smash stuff though, I wanted to ask: What do you think of a lot of the added gender options announced by Sakurai? You know, like Female Pokemon Trainer, female pikachu, etc. I wanted to ask because I came across this tweet by Anita Sarkeesian.



And I've agreed with a lot of her stuff from Tropes vs Women and the like, but this just seems a bit condescending and obnoxious. I just wonder if it really came off that heavy handed for other people (namely women) too.

I don't mind Sarkeesian but sometimes she comes off as to negative for me. this is the kind of tweet id hear from a anti-sjw type person
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,251
I'd be fine with literally every character returning except ZS Samus, but that's an okay compromise, I guess.

Do look forward to the Rex + Pyra reveal tho.

I don't think Rex and Pyra are gonna be part of the base roster this time, just because of the respective development cycles of Smash Ultimate and Xenoblade 2. I do expect and dread them as DLC or, at the very latest, in Smash 6.

Hopefully, Pyra gets the female!Corrin treatment.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,406
Actually, in DA2 every romance was bi. They went back to gender gating romances in DAI as they found it took about the same resources making 4 bi romances as making 6 different gated romances, and they felt making their characters be straight only, or gay , or lesbian, or bi, or pan, meant they were able to write characters more freely as it were? It led to Dorian as a character, and making him a bi character would have taken away from his story so I think the tradeoff was good.
Oh yea forgot about DA:I. My roommate at the time actually cried watching me go through Dorian's plotline because he could relate so much.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
Oh yea forgot about DA:I. My roommate at the time actually cried watching me go through Dorian's plotline because he could relate so much.
Heck, I'm a straight women and Dorian's scene with his father made me go all teary. That actor nailed it. Love Dorian as a character, and really hope he returns in DA4 - luckily there's a big chance as it's pretty much guaranteed we'll be going to Tevinter.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
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High heels are still there,but she looks very athletic now.
She's definitely closer to where she should be in terms of build, but she's still way shorter than she should be.

I still remember this illustration of her being something of a giant:
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Note that she has a classically heroic head:body ratio, as opposed to the more normal/cutesy ratio she has in Smash Bros.
 

PhazonBlonde

User requested ban
Banned
May 18, 2018
3,293
Somewhere deep in space
She's definitely closer to where she should be in terms of build, but she's still way shorter than she should be.

I still remember this illustration of her being something of a giant:
bc0.jpg


Note that she has a classically heroic head:body ratio, as opposed to the more normal/cutesy ratio she has in Smash Bros.

The Smash heights are kinda.... weird. Idk I remember them listing her as far shorter than 6'3 in the related material to Other M. She also has the classic 'zero suit' shorts and top from Fusion (IRRC?) though so I don't think they're going by Other M's heights. Judging by her relative height to other characters, she seems still to be pretty tall. Then again it is tough because apparently most Nintendo's women are tall (Peach, Rosalina and Zelda especially)
 

Deleted member 2099

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
658
I have a genuine question I'd like to get an answer for.

Does it matter what a female character's height is? Because as far as I'm concerned, in the real world, most women are pretty short. I mean, isn't the average height like 5'4" - 5'6" for women? Wouldn't it be a good thing to have strong female leads that are short? I think having ALL strong female leads to be tall like that would be discouraging for women who are short and of course lead to different kinds of self esteem issues as well as things of that nature.

This has always been mind boggling for me.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Samus' case is special because in-universe she was genetically modified to be more physically capable than a normal human, regardless of gender, hence why she used to be more muscular and tall.

But then starting with Zero Mission, the more she's been exposed without her suit, the more fragile and feminine they've made her look, going as far as giving her heels in Smash 4. ZM alone was bad, but IMO everything went downhill when Sakurai and co had the wonderful idea of making her "combat naked" version playable in Brawl, that's when she got the Nintendo waifu status.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
The Smash heights are kinda.... weird. Idk I remember them listing her as far shorter than 6'3 in the related material to Other M. She also has the classic 'zero suit' shorts and top from Fusion (IRRC?) though so I don't think they're going by Other M's heights. Judging by her relative height to other characters, she seems still to be pretty tall. Then again it is tough because apparently most Nintendo's women are tall (Peach, Rosalina and Zelda especially)
I genuinely do not have a good frame of reference for character heights in Smash because of how funky their proportions are going from character to character. I'm just going off of head size most of the time, and judging by head size Samus looks rather short (compared to how I imagine her). It would be pretty trivial to shrink her head a bit to make her look proportionately taller, though I don't know how well that would jive with the other characters in the roster. Just something to think about, really.
I have a genuine question I'd like to get an answer for.

Does it matter what a female character's height is? Because as far as I'm concerned, in the real world, most women are pretty short. I mean, isn't the average height like 5'4" - 5'6" for women? Wouldn't it be a good thing to have strong female leads that are short? I think having ALL strong female leads to be tall like that would be discouraging for women who are short and of course lead to different kinds of self esteem issues as well as things of that nature.

This has always been mind boggling for me.
Samus' case is special because in-universe she was genetically modified to be more physically capable than a normal human, regardless of gender, hence why she used to be more muscular and tall.

But then starting with Zero Mission, the more she's been exposed without her suit, the more fragile and feminine they've made her look, going as far as giving her heels in Smash 4. ZM alone was bad, but IMO everything went downhill when Sakurai and co had the wonderful idea of making her "combat naked" version playable in Brawl, that's when she got the Nintendo waifu status.
^-this right here. It's not a "every heroic lady should look like this" thing and more a "Samus has always been huge (before they changed her)" sort of thing.

The vast majority of heroines will always be short because of the exact thing you pointed out (most women are short). It's okay for there to be an outlier every now and again.

Tangentially, I would also note that tall women face a lot of trouble when it comes to maintaining their self-esteem because tall women are seen as being intimidating (and thus, unattractive), on top of the fact that the vast majority of human physical goods (including clothing, doorways, and even signage depending on where you live - knocking one's head against signs set too low is an actual thing) are designed for people of average height. I don't see any danger of society hewing too much towards "tall women are the best" any time soon, for all these reasons and more.

Hell, I personally prefer to play minimum height characters as much as I can get away with (well, within reason - I'm not a fan of Lalafell height, heh). I just want to see one of the (very, very) few tall lady characters get treated right.
 

PhazonBlonde

User requested ban
Banned
May 18, 2018
3,293
Somewhere deep in space
I genuinely do not have a good frame of reference for character heights in Smash because of how funky their proportions are going from character to character. I'm just going off of head size most of the time, and judging by head size Samus looks rather short (compared to how I imagine her). It would be pretty trivial to shrink her head a bit to make her look proportionately taller, though I don't know how well that would jive with the other characters in the roster. Just something to think about, really.


^-this right here. It's not a "every heroic lady should look like this" thing and more a "Samus has always been huge (before they changed her)" sort of thing.

The vast majority of heroines will always be short because of the exact thing you pointed out (most women are short). It's okay for there to be an outlier every now and again.

Tangentially, I would also note that tall women face a lot of trouble when it comes to maintaining their self-esteem because tall women are seen as being intimidating (and thus, unattractive), on top of the fact that the vast majority of human physical goods (including clothing, doorways, and even signage depending on where you live - knocking one's head against signs set too low is an actual thing) are designed for people of average height. I don't see any danger of society hewing too much towards "tall women are the best" any time soon, for all these reasons and more.

Hell, I personally prefer to play minimum height characters as much as I can get away with (well, within reason - I'm not a fan of Lalafell height, heh). I just want to see one of the (very, very) few tall lady characters get treated right.

If you're going by head to body ratio, that's almost entirely due to changing the art style from a more realistic one in the NES & SNES days to a more 'anime' style one. Heroic or realistic porportions are 7 to 8 heads tall; anime style is about 6 heads tall. If they shrunk her head it would make her look off from the other characters and their anime styles. In the NES days her hair was brown or red or something too. For better or for worse, this is the design of Samus they've used pretty much since Fusion 15 years ago, and I doubt it'll change much. FWIW I like all incarnations of her character (see my user name), and plan to cosplay her soon. The only thing about her designs I dislike is the fucking heel boots (I'm not going to deal with that shit when I do cosplay her).

As for wanting one of the tall women to get treated right; if you look at Smash and official character heights Nintendo actually makes their women pretty tall, comparative to other Japanese game developers. As mentioned, Samus, Zelda, Peach, Rosalina, and Paulina are all pretty damn tall. So I think it's funny you're picking on the one game where the women are (in general) taller than the men, aside from beasts like Ganondorf and Bowser. And it's pretty consistent across games. Peach & Rosalina are taller than the male characters in their games, and Zelda is always taller than Link.

As far as your comments about tall women; I'm a tall woman (5'11) and maintain my self esteem pretty great. No one treats me like I'm intimidating or anything, in fact I get rather annoyed that I am so tall and I still get that condescending thing older women and men do to girls (i.e. calling me 'sweetheart' and shit or talking in a softer tone to me, explaining things I already know). I rather like being tall, and I've gotten a lot of compliments about it. It's kind of funny you assert that society doesn't see tall women as attractive when most models are 5'9 at minimum.

Then again I don't know if I qualify for the "too tall" category to experience people thinking I'm intimidating, and I certainly don't find things like doors too low or stuff like that.
 
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Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
If you're going by head to body ratio, that's almost entirely due to changing the art style from a more realistic one in the NES & SNES days to a more 'anime' style one. Heroic or realistic porportions are 7 to 8 heads tall; anime style is about 6 heads tall. If they shrunk her head it would make her look off from the other characters and their anime styles. In the NES days her hair was brown or red or something too. For better or for worse, this is the design of Samus they've used pretty much since Fusion 15 years ago, and I doubt it'll change much. FWIW I like all incarnations of her character (see my user name), and plan to cosplay her soon. The only thing about her designs I dislike is the fucking heel boots (I'm not going to deal with that shit when I do cosplay her).

As for wanting one of the tall women to get treated right; if you look at Smash and official character heights Nintendo actually makes their women pretty tall, comparative to other Japanese game developers. As mentioned, Samus, Zelda, Peach, Rosalina, and Paulina are all pretty damn tall.
I don't know, I've never read any of the Nintendo princesses as being particularly tall just going off of the artwork (though obviously they're pretty much universally taller than their male counterparts). That's just, yeah, going by head size ratio in the artwork.

For me, it's more of a visual thing than a numbers thing. It's all well and good to have that stuff on paper, but actually physically representing it is another matter, and in my view, the more important side of things.

Also, FWIW, I don't think it's an "anime" thing. Gun Gale Online, an anime airing this year, has a female character who stands at 183cm tall and has the head-body-size ratio to match. It's more... a style specific to Nintendo's works in particular. I get that they kind of chibi-fy their characters across the board, so some things just won't come across the same way. Not a big deal, really, just kind of me thinking out loud.
As far as your comments about tall women; I'm a tall woman (5'11) and maintain my self esteem pretty great. No one treats me like I'm intimidating or anything, in fact I get rather annoyed that I am so tall and I still get that condescending thing older women and men do to girls (i.e. calling me 'sweetheart' and shit or talking in a softer tone to me, explaining things I already know). I rather like being tall, and I've gotten a lot of compliments about it. It's kind of funny you assert that society doesn't see tall women as attractive when most models are 5'9 at minimum.

Then again I don't know if I qualify for the "too tall" category to experience people thinking I'm intimidating, and I certainly don't find things like doors too low or stuff like that.
Depends on where you live. 5'11" in Western society is towards the tail end of "above average". In, say, an East Asian country like Japan you'd be much more in that "obnoxiously tall" category where you'd run into a lot more inconveniences because even the guys are generally 4.5" shorter than you are (you'd be in the 0.1% of height there - for reference, an equivalent height in the US for women would be 6'2"). That's on top of the culture itself heavily putting emphasis on women having to be feminine and cute and all that junk. Western society simply does not have as many hang-ups in that area (in part thanks to feminism).

But yeah, general sexism and ageism isn't something you'll escape just for being huge. We've still got quite a ways to go on that front, sadly. Hence the reason why threads like this exist!
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
The Smash heights are kinda.... weird. Idk I remember them listing her as far shorter than 6'3 in the related material to Other M. She also has the classic 'zero suit' shorts and top from Fusion (IRRC?) though so I don't think they're going by Other M's heights. Judging by her relative height to other characters, she seems still to be pretty tall. Then again it is tough because apparently most Nintendo's women are tall (Peach, Rosalina and Zelda especially)
tumblr_n0yhh4NLNa1qb0wv3o2_500.gif

But yeah, Smash doesn't really go for accuracy because of all the clashing art styles: Ultimate has Young Link almost as tall as standard Link! Pretty sure some of the Pokemon would be tiny if everyone was to scale, too?
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
Yes I am fairly sure the Pokemon sizes are not to scale either. Pikachu is just 4 inches over a foot tall while Pichu is exactly a foot.
 

Pandora012

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,496
I have a genuine question I'd like to get an answer for.

Does it matter what a female character's height is? Because as far as I'm concerned, in the real world, most women are pretty short. I mean, isn't the average height like 5'4" - 5'6" for women? Wouldn't it be a good thing to have strong female leads that are short? I think having ALL strong female leads to be tall like that would be discouraging for women who are short and of course lead to different kinds of self esteem issues as well as things of that nature.

This has always been mind boggling for me.

It doesn't matter much to me, but I've noticed many games tend to make the women on the shorter side. Some do wear heels, and tend to be around other characters that are also short. It'd actually be different to have taller women in games. I've look at some of the heights of some of my favorite female characters, and most never breach 5' 8". Generally, it's pretty hard to tell how tall someone is in a game. They can appear much taller then they actually are.
 

PhazonBlonde

User requested ban
Banned
May 18, 2018
3,293
Somewhere deep in space
I don't know, I've never read any of the Nintendo princesses as being particularly tall just going off of the artwork (though obviously they're pretty much universally taller than their male counterparts). That's just, yeah, going by head size ratio in the artwork.

For me, it's more of a visual thing than a numbers thing. It's all well and good to have that stuff on paper, but actually physically representing it is another matter, and in my view, the more important side of things.

Also, FWIW, I don't think it's an "anime" thing. Gun Gale Online, an anime airing this year, has a female character who stands at 183cm tall and has the head-body-size ratio to match. It's more... a style specific to Nintendo's works in particular. I get that they kind of chibi-fy their characters across the board, so some things just won't come across the same way. Not a big deal, really, just kind of me thinking out loud.

Depends on where you live. 5'11" in Western society is towards the tail end of "above average". In, say, an East Asian country like Japan you'd be much more in that "obnoxiously tall" category where you'd run into a lot more inconveniences because even the guys are generally 4.5" shorter than you are (you'd be in the 0.1% of height there - for reference, an equivalent height in the US for women would be 6'2"). That's on top of the culture itself heavily putting emphasis on women having to be feminine and cute and all that junk. Western society simply does not have as many hang-ups in that area (in part thanks to feminism).

But yeah, general sexism and ageism isn't something you'll escape just for being huge. We've still got quite a ways to go on that front, sadly. Hence the reason why threads like this exist!

Going off head to body ratio is a bad way of determining height, because it's always going to be porportional, and differ greatly depending on the art style. Again, anime style is fewer 'heads' tall than strictly realism. Although, like you pointed out 'anime' style is so varied that yeah, sometimes the ratios DO fit. It sounds like your complaint is more with the art style than anything, but it's a Nintendo game and looks all cartoony anyways, so yeah... making more real porportions to me looks weird in Smash (why I don't really like Snake on the roster). You're right, it is almost a 'chibi' ish style. Some anime artists strike more towards 'Chibi' (like Rumiko Takahasih), and some artists more towards fashion model porportions (CLAMP & Naoko Takeuchi).

As for physically representing it, I mean... Rosalina sticks out as the prime example. She's definately the 'tall blonde elf' type, and is about the same height as Ganon and Bowser, who are supposed to be around or over 7'-0" tall. I think making all the women taller than the men consistently is a pretty gutsy move design wise from a Japanese developer. To me it shows they're wanting their female characters to be seen as equally strong as the men, and heroic, regardless of the art style. Lucina is just as tall as other Fire Emblem characters IIRC as well. Even Peach, who's like... the embodiment of the feminine princess type is still on the tall end when compared to other smash characters.

Oh yeah, when you put it that way in East Asian countries, it totally makes sense :P Height is definitely also determined by ethnicity. I'm mostly German and Dutch, and an average woman there is 5'7 according to charts, and average men are about 6'0". So the difference would be less. I've actually been to East Asian countries and was taller than almost everyone (except 1 girl and a handful of men). I got a few stares, although it wasn't in a mean spirited way. In fact when I was hanging around the Disney area with my ex, I had a group of Korean girls ask for me picture just because I loooked "tall, light and beautiful" according to them. Weirded me out but I guess they don't see women that tall very often over there. I DID however notice things being 'smaller' like doors being lower, and sinks being lower, but nothing to where i had to duck my head or bend down to wash my hands or anything. Although I can imagine that if I was like 6'2 i'd probably have that issue.

I think western society is definitely more kind to tall women in that regard, where tall women are often seen in terms of like, fashion models or Tolkien elves or something. Whereas yeah in Japan there's that weird thing where women are supposed to be small and cute and young (which kinda weirds me out because of their whole lolita inclinations, but that's another issue >.>) So suffice to say I'm actually happy to see taller women in a Japanese game for once in Nintendo's games. Especially ones that are capable fighters and not just weak willed and pining after the male hero all the time. Hell, the Peach as a damsel in distress thing has even gotten kind of self aware in a lot of the Mario RPG games.
 

PhazonBlonde

User requested ban
Banned
May 18, 2018
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Somewhere deep in space
tumblr_n0yhh4NLNa1qb0wv3o2_500.gif

But yeah, Smash doesn't really go for accuracy because of all the clashing art styles: Ultimate has Young Link almost as tall as standard Link! Pretty sure some of the Pokemon would be tiny if everyone was to scale, too?

I actually really like this ship tbh lol.

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With all the negativity about guys being short, I like to see couples like this (especially since one of my exes was a shorter guy)
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I actually really like this ship tbh lol.

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With all the negativity about guys being short, I like to see couples like this (especially since one of my exes was a shorter guy)
Not gonna lie, that's pretty cute.

Regarding the height discussion, I don't think any of the heights of the characters in the Smash universe are considered "canon", even among the same universe. Just the fact that there are multiple Links would mean any standard for logic is already long since thrown out.
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
Not gonna lie, that's pretty cute.

Regarding the height discussion, I don't think any of the heights of the characters in the Smash universe are considered "canon", even among the same universe. Just the fact that there are multiple Links would mean any standard for logic is already long since thrown out.

I mean, aren't Kirby characters canonically a few inches tall or something?

And don't get me started on Olimar.
 

Narroo

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,819
I'm glad the gender options are there, because representation options really matter for people in the long term (even when they aren't conscious of it). That said, it's certainly fair-game to poke fun at more superficial overtures from publishers, especially considering how resistant some of these same companies had been to those inclusions for decades.

I'd bet it's hard for commentators to hit a tone for that sort of quip without just seeming contrarian. For someone like Sarkeesian who put so much work into discussion about this stuff over the years, I bet this is more playful than some might think at first glance. I (unfortunately) see some of the replies to the Tweet are already hovering around at least a "7".



Bingo, as far as I can tell.
The main problem is that Anita sounds like she doesn't know what she's talking about. Nintendo's avatar characters have a history of letting players play as male or females, and since Smash 4 had a ton of avatar characters, they implemented model/costume swaps to let players choose their appropriate avatar. They're obviously continuing this in Smash 5, and so Pokemon Trainer is obviously getting a female variant. It would have been surprising for it not to.

As far as the Pikachu thing goes; for some reason they've been marketing female Pikachu a fair bit - likely because of the Luchador Pikachu. Female Pikachu is likely an extension of that.

Then Anita comes in and claims they're trying to impress people with female options. She sounds like a jerk.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
The main problem is that Anita sounds like she doesn't know what she's talking about. Nintendo's avatar characters have a history of letting players play as male or females, and since Smash 4 had a ton of avatar characters, they implemented model/costume swaps to let players choose their appropriate avatar. They're obviously continuing this in Smash 5, and so Pokemon Trainer is obviously getting a female variant. It would have been surprising for it not to.

As far as the Pikachu thing goes; for some reason they've been marketing female Pikachu a fair bit - likely because of the Luchador Pikachu. Female Pikachu is likely an extension of that.

Then Anita comes in and claims they're trying to impress people with female options. She sounds like a jerk.
I think that it's pretty easy to feel condescended to when the indicator for your sex is a heart-shaped tail or the language constantly associated with female characters continues to be wording like dainty. Let's be straight about this - Sakurai's manner of presenting female characters remains one of stereotyping and fitting women into predefined boxes, and the SSBU presentation just makes that all the more clear.

Sexism in design is not just clothing. It goes much deeper than that, the clothing just remains one of the most visible problems (e.g., Zero Suit Samus heels). Heart-shaped tails and other problematic base assumptions still need to be rooted out.
 
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Narroo

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,819
I think that it's pretty easy to feel condescended to when the indicator for your sex is a heart-shaped tail or the language constantly associated with female characters continues to be wording like dainty. Let's be straight about this - Sakurai's manner of presenting female characters remains one of stereotyping and fitting women into predefined boxes, and the SSBU presentation just makes that all the more clear.

Sexism in design is not just clothing. It goes much deeper than that, the clothing just remains one of the most visible problems (e.g., Zero Suit Samus heels). Heart-shaped tails and other problematic base assumptions still need to be rooted out.
I agree with the symbology part, but that had nothing to do with the Smash Bros reveal or Anita's comments.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
I think that it's pretty easy to feel condescended to when the indicator for your sex is a heart-shaped tail or the language constantly associated with female characters continues to be wording like dainty. Let's be straight about this - Sakurai's manner of presenting female characters remains one of stereotyping and fitting women into predefined boxes, and the SSBU presentation just makes that all the more clear.

Sexism in design is not just clothing. It goes much deeper than that, the clothing just remains one of the most visible problems (e.g., Zero Suit Samus heels). Heart-shaped tails and other problematic base assumptions still need to be rooted out.
TBF, Sakurai has nothing to do with female Pikachu's tail. That's 100% GameFreak, who are infamous for half-assing their gender options.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I'd downloaded the demo of Shining Resonance: Refrain to try on my lunch break- it's only about fifteen minutes long, and ten of those are cut scenes of characters with lengthy fantastical titles introducing themselves. I think this is probably the most anime game I've ever played out of over a hundred JRPGs.

This is the first character I meet, Sonia, a 'knight'. With a lacy boobplate cupping her breasts and leaving her vitals exposed, with an armoured boobstrap on top of them that has it's own boobwindow in it. Obviously stockings, figure-hugging corset 'armour', weird belt deployment, plate armour that must be wafer-thin on her deformed ankles and a a loose idea of anatomy go hand-in-hand. Her buckler is bizarrely attached to the underarm as it's more important that it somehow works as a violin (?!), and a scabbard is unnecessary as everyone's weapons teleport into existence. Which is really bloody handy for the young man who just escaped from prison and had his inner voice telling him to draw his sword.
Fxz78L.jpeg
 
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Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
I'd downloaded the demo of Shining Resonance: Refrain to try on my lunch break- it's only about fifteen minutes long, and ten of those are cut scenes of characters with lengthy fantastical titles introducing themselves. I think this is probably the most anime game I've ever played out of over a hundred JRPGs.

This is the first character I meet, Sonia, a 'knight'. With a lacy boobplate cupping her breasts and leaving her vitals exposed, with an armoured boobstrap on top of them that has it's own boobwindow in it. Obviously stockings, figure-hugging corset 'armour', weird belt deployment, plate armour that must be wafer-thin on her deformed ankles and a a loose idea of anatomy go hand-in-hand. Her buckler is bizarrely attached to the underarm as it's more important that it somehow works as a violin (?!), and a scabbard is unnecessary as everyone's weapons teleport into existence. Which is really bloody handy for the young man who just escaped from prison and had his inner voice telling him to draw his sword.
Fxz78L.jpeg
Never fails to amaze me just how bad the writing in these things is.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,399
I remember you talking about Shining Force elsewhere, when I asked which one to try, I take it you didn't mean this one :D
Jesus fucking Satan no :D the only Shining Force games one should try are 1, 2, and 3, maybe CD/Gaiden (Gamegear). The old old ones. Anything after the Sega Saturn is a disaster.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
Jesus fucking Satan no :D the only Shining Force games one should try are 1, 2, and 3, maybe CD/Gaiden (Gamegear). The old old ones. Anything after the Sega Saturn is a disaster.
I remember Shining Soul being inoffensive if forgettable, but it was the last one before they hired a porn artist to design their characters seven times.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Never fails to amaze me just how bad the writing in these things is.
I don't think there's much cohesive writing in evident at all so far, just a series of navel-gazing anime cliches in conflict with each other. Pretty much every line could have come from dozens of other rpgs, there's nothing particularly unique or intriguing about any of the characters in their introduction, which, you'd think, is the crucial time for key dialogue that sums them up. This is the exact same problem that Laxia in Ys VIII had, an intro based in cliche rather than character. Shining Resonance generic dragon hero guy is lacking confidence, knight girl is brimming with it, archer girl is a zen ice queen, enemy princess lady is smug and laughs at your victory because, naturally, in a shocked (not shocked) plot twist, you haven't really won. Of course the enemy was only using a fraction of it's full power, I haven't seen that since, er, last week. It's just going through the motions of the most well-trod paths of the genre. Think I'll skip it and try the Octopath demo instead.
 
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Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,721
I was in awe of Tony Taka's art the first time I saw it, but that didn't last. His art is incredibly boring.
 
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