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Bob The Skull

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
177
Chicago
I don't understand what you are asking of me?

ARE you asking me to justify my ethical standards?
No I'm not asking for you to justify your standards. I'm just genuinely curious for what process you apply to determine this limit, and if you feel this is a general or a personal limit.

I disagree with you that this limit applies, but I figured that since I disagree with you I should try to understand your thinking on this.
 

Bourgeois

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
28
They shot rockets from civilian areas in a tiny strip of land almost entirely made up of civilian areas. Every gorilla organisation in history has employed these tactics.

Human shield claims is a tactic used by powerful military forces against gorilla forces to paint them as inhuman monsters rather than people employing the only viable strategy they can to fight against a vastly superior military opponent.
Oh please, Hamas targets civilians knowingly and on purpose, it's not "the only viable strategy the can".
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,031
The fact is Israel has participated in human rights abuse since its inception, bombing indiscriminately, using phosphorous bombs, torture and imprisonment of Palestinian women and children.

No matter how much you and other hasbarists try to convince yourselves otherwise, Israel is a European colony that participated in apartheid and human rights abuses, and no amount of propaganda will change that.

This. And they continue with their goal of ethnic cleansing.

Just because atrocity happens on both sides doesn't excuse Israel's actions.
 

Terra Firma

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,235
This is an insane reach. How does wanting Hamas to go away mean wanting to exterminate (as in, murder all) Gazans? And claiming by "weareright" she supports exterminating Gazans is...also insane.
She said that when Israel was actively killing civilians in 2014. The IDF killed over 2200 people, with nearly 70% of them civilians.

Hamas is always trotted out as justification for any and all disproportionate and outright evil actions by the IDF. Use of white phosphorus? Hamas! Indiscriminate killings? Hamas! Bombing kids at a beach? Hamas! In practice, targeting "Hamas" has always ended up killing more and more Palestinians so yeah, justifying the bombing of Gaza with "Hamas" is the same as justifying murder of Gazan civilians in practice.

Hamas wishes it was as evil as Israel and the IDF claims it is. All it can muster are retaliatory rockets that are lucky to hit an open field.
 

Bourgeois

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
28
No clue, wouldn't be to bomb indiscriminately from the air.
English is not my first language (nor it is the second or third..), so I might've misunderstood - but you said you don't believe that some killings are necessary, right? in that case, what should be done with an enemy (and the enemy alone, the armed force, not civilians) that believes that wants to see you dead?

And I absolutely agree that Israel abuses the fact that Hamas attacks it in order to absolutely annihilate Gazans at every turn, but that doesn't justify the Hamas either - who aren't even majority supported by Gazans themselves.
 

Deleted member 2945

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
454
English is not my first language (nor it is the second or third..), so I might've misunderstood - but you said you don't believe that some killings are necessary, right? in that case, what should be done with an enemy (and the enemy alone, the armed force, not civilians) that believes that wants to see you dead?

And I absolutely agree that Israel abuses the fact that Hamas attacks it in order to absolutely annihilate Gazans at every turn, but that doesn't justify the Hamas either - who aren't even majority supported by Gazans themselves.

Your example or scenario needs further context.

The killings being necessary was in reference to civilians not specific to soldiers/fighters.

War may be necessary, everyone has a right to self-defense. That wasn't the point offered by that poster.

Edit: I think the people that are trying to show Hamas' record understand that theyve only been around since the late 80s and only representative in Gaza since 2007.
 

Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
She said that when Israel was actively killing civilians in 2014. The IDF killed over 2200 people, with nearly 70% of them civilians.

Hamas is always trotted out as justification for any and all disproportionate and outright evil actions by the IDF. Use of white phosphorus? Hamas! Indiscriminate killings? Hamas! Bombing kids at a beach? Hamas! In practice, targeting "Hamas" has always ended up killing more and more Palestinians so yeah, justifying the bombing of Gaza with "Hamas" is the same as justifying murder of Gazan civilians in practice.

Hamas wishes it was as evil as Israel and the IDF claims it is. All it can muster are retaliatory rockets that are lucky to hit an open field.

Regardless, using those few hashtags to claim she supports extermination of civilians is insane. Maybe someone should ask her to elaborate and clarify so we can know where she actually stands on the issue of exterminating Gazans.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
Regardless, using those few hashtags to claim she supports extermination of civilians is insane. Maybe someone should ask her to elaborate and clarify so we can know where she actually stands on the issue of exterminating Gazans.
not directed to you but people are giving her WAY TOO MUCH benefit of the doubt.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Regardless, using those few hashtags to claim she supports extermination of civilians is insane. Maybe someone should ask her to elaborate and clarify so we can know where she actually stands on the issue of exterminating Gazans.
Explain then, when she says weareright while civilians are slaughtered, what does that mean?
 

Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
not directed to you but people are giving her WAY TOO MUCH benefit of the doubt.
Some people maybe, and other people claim she supports genocide. Wake me up when somebody actually asks her and finds out what her detailed position is.

Explain then, when she says weareright while civilians are slaughtered, what does that mean?

It can mean being ignorant, uninformed, whatever. It probably doesn't mean supporting extermination of peaceful civilian population though.
 

necrosis

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
847
I've addressed this before. Please read my other posts.

i've read your other posts

the argument that jews being "indigenous" to the area gives them the right to displace people that have been settled there for over a thousand years & makes the act of doing so something other than colonization isn't sufficient

humanity as a whole grew out of africa, but that doesn't excuse european colonialism there
 

JustSomeone

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
910
Explain then, when she says weareright while civilians are slaughtered, what does that mean?
It means that the Israeli side was unwillingly dragged into the conflict and is not the aggressor. It certainly doesn't mean that every action performed by the israeli army during the conflict is justifiable.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Some people maybe, and other people claim she supports genocide. Wake me up when somebody actually asks her and finds out what her detailed position is.



It can mean being ignorant, uninformed, whatever. It probably doesn't mean supporting extermination of peaceful civilian population though.
She said this while saying Hamas was hiding behind women and children, why approve of it if you know they are killing more human shield than hamas members? Why post a picture of her child? What this shows is better them than us instead she could have said something without taking sides. She herself was in the IDF and knows how things work. All she needed was to look at how people was treated at each checkpoint. Palestine has tons of them and I am sure she saw how it is.

It means that the Israeli side was unwillingly dragged into the conflict and is not the aggressor. It certainly doesn't mean that every action performed by the israeli army during the conflict is justifiable.

Israeli side was willingly dragged into that war. All the antagonization and the setlement building, the limited fishing zones and the open prison is the reason hamas got support. So no, Israel knew what was going to happen.
 
Oct 31, 2017
570
Oh please, Hamas targets civilians knowingly and on purpose, it's not "the only viable strategy the can".
I was referring specifically to firing from civilian areas, but no they don't target civilians, they don't have the the tech to target anyone in particular. Not that it's ok to indescriminently fire rockets.

I just reject the notion that the army firing rockets from an inescapable ghetto are in someway morally inferior to the modern millatary force who kill civilians at much higher rates.
 

Ashane

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
343
Florida
i've read your other posts

the argument that jews being "indigenous" to the area gives them the right to displace people that have been settled there for over a thousand years & makes the act of doing so something other than colonization isn't sufficient

humanity as a whole grew out of africa, but that doesn't excuse european colonialism there

Let' be fair here... The Jews did not "grow out of" and move to find resources, fertile land or otherwise.

They were drove out. The fact that the Jewish people held together and did not simple fade into obscurity prompted their return to what could and should be considered their rightful homeland.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
My thoughts are that I can't in good conscience see her as a good person because of her views on the IDF.
I understand that she had to serve and all, but eh...
Being a person of close descent to those being oppressed, I can't. I've heard these things too many times in my life. How democratic they are, but I don't see it.
I definitely blame Hamas for their constant provocations. However, never will I put Israel in its current form in a good light, so if one defends the IDF, I can't support nor befriend them.

Soured my opinion on WW and future movies. It is what it is.

return to what could and should be considered their rightful homeland.

Huh...rightful? That's rich.
 
Last edited:

Palas

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,805
It means that the Israeli side was unwillingly dragged into the conflict and is not the aggressor.

...Which would be wrong. The first intifada happened in 1987, years after (not before) Israel's military expenditure reached an absurd 30% of their GDP. The Palestinian people are clearly the ones resisting here.

If anything, Hamas is used as a scapegoat to justify Israel's existence as both a Jewish state and a democracy, two principles that far too often conflict themselves when regional integration and defense issues arise. Gaza is being mantained in subhuman conditions by Israel solely to breed this scapegoat. It's truly disgusting and I can't approve of anyone who supports it.
 

Bourgeois

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
28
I was referring specifically to firing from civilian areas, but no they don't target civilians, they don't have the the tech to target anyone in particular. Not that it's ok to indescriminently fire rockets.

I just reject the notion that the army firing rockets from an inescapable ghetto are in someway morally inferior to the modern millatary force who kill civilians at much higher rates.
Really? So when 3 mortars were launched at Eilat, an Israeli city located on the southern-most part of Israel, tens if not hundreds of kilometers away from any other city or significant military base, during the peak-tourism time in Israel, it was not planned? Are you trying to tell me Hamas is so stupid they're trying to aim hundreds of kilometers away from their actual targets?
What about bombings made by suicide terrorists specifically in places crowded with civilians? also just a mistake due to low tech?
What about Hamas encouraging civilians to go ahead and stab Israelis, with no discrimination of position in the army?
 

Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
She said this while saying Hamas was hiding behind women and children, why approve of it if you know they are killing more human shield than hamas members? Why post a picture of her child? What this shows is better them than us instead she could have said something without taking sides. She herself was in the IDF and knows how things work. All she needed was to look at how people was treated at each checkpoint. Palestine has tons of them and I am sure she saw how it is.

I am looking at that facebook post:

"I am sending my love and prayers to my fellow Israeli citizens. Especially to all the boys and girls who are risking their lives protecting my country against the horrific acts conducted by Hamas, who are hiding like cowards behind women and children..."

And nowhere in it do I see her approving any kind of women and children killing. What she actually does is calling Hamas cowards for using disgusting tactics like that.
And I wonder, was that lie/propaganda/ignorance and Hamas did not use that tactics? From cursory googling it seems they have but I admit I didn't follow these events in detail. But regardless, reading that post as "I hope IDF murders all peaceful palestinian citizens" is just...yeah.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I am looking at that facebook post:

"I am sending my love and prayers to my fellow Israeli citizens. Especially to all the boys and girls who are risking their lives protecting my country against the horrific acts conducted by Hamas, who are hiding like cowards behind women and children..."

And nowhere in it do I see her approving any kind of women and children killing. What she actually does is calling Hamas cowards for using disgusting tactics like that.
And I wonder, was that lie/propaganda/ignorance and Hamas did not use that tactics? From cursory googling it seems they have but I admit I didn't follow these events in detail. But regardless, reading that post as "I hope IDF murders peaceful palestinian citizens" is just...yeah.
Even if they did use them, she knew innocents were dying. That is my point, you would have to be a heartless bitch to think its ok to bomb people because they are used as shields.

Another thing is, Gaza is a small piece of land with over a million people living in it so where should they go if Israel is bombing everywhere asuming that there was no human sheild? They are using advanced bombs that are very high tech and they could se civilians being used as shield.

I also doubt they cared about the civilians when 3 kids playing at the bitch in the got bombed. I could link multiple sources if you want.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
They were drove out. The fact that the Jewish people held together and did not simple fade into obscurity prompted their return to what could and should be considered their rightful homeland.
unbelievable. what was the land to the people living there before israel was established? was it not their rightful land? aren't they being driven out by israel for them to reach their absurd goal of a full jewish country? does ancient history justify current crimes? that's a dangerous view to have.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,954
Nationalism across the world can blind people and brainwash them from the harsh truths of their own reality.

With Gal, the good news is that she's a liberal Nationalist and supports positive causes outside of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
 

Spongebob

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
247
She was in the IDF, that's all I need to know. Terrible person.

Israel is an apartheid state, do different than South Africa. "Progressives" that support Israel are no different than neocons.
 
Last edited:
Oct 31, 2017
570
Really? So when 3 mortars were launched at Eilat, an Israeli city located on the southern-most part of Israel, tens if not hundreds of kilometers away from any other city or significant military base, during the peak-tourism time in Israel, it was not planned? Are you trying to tell me Hamas is so stupid they're trying to aim hundreds of kilometers away from their actual targets?
What about bombings made by suicide terrorists specifically in places crowded with civilians? also just a mistake due to low tech?
What about Hamas encouraging civilians to go ahead and stab Israelis, with no discrimination of position in the army?
How many rockets missed? If they had the ability to target civilians and were so intent on killing them, why so few civilian deaths at the hand of Hamas rockets?

Look I'm against all war and senseless murder, but Israel has shown time and again that they only respect force. The Palestinian Authority co-operate on security and have been open to peace talks for years and have only seen more land appropriated for colonisation as a result. The only time Israel does make concessions to Palestinians is when Hamas fires rockets, only when Israeli lives are under threat does the international media pay any attention to the plight of the Palestinians. The routine Israeli violations of human rights don't get play in the western media and while the people in Gaza continue to be treated as subhuman this is what you will get, right or wrong.
 

Qikz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,508
unbelievable. what was the land to the people living there before israel was established? was it not their rightful land? aren't they being driven out by israel for them to reach their absurd goal of a full jewish country? does ancient history justify current crimes? that's a dangerous view to have.

The full Jewish country thing isn't true, my step family are Russian/Israeli and while the older members support Zionism my step brother who is younger than me disagrees with the actions of Israel.

He did say however there are lots of muslim people living in Israel who are mostly happy. He said from his first hand experience that the issue is a lot of Israeli people, including those in government do not see palestinians as humans. He said the former education minister (Netenyahu's Wife IIRC) stated she wanted all Palestinians dead. It's like they don't care about the history of the country or anything. Israel's actions are not justified in any way shape or form by what Hamas does.

Hamas does horrible things, but Israel according to their government are supposed to be the civilised people who care about human lives. Yet they've shown time and time again that this isn't the truth. They respond with far too much aggression when they're supposed to be the "right ones" in all this. If someone for instance breaks one of your windows deliberately, do you go get a bulldozer and bulldoze their house?
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
I was referring specifically to firing from civilian areas, but no they don't target civilians, they don't have the the tech to target anyone in particular. Not that it's ok to indescriminently fire rockets.

I just reject the notion that the army firing rockets from an inescapable ghetto are in someway morally inferior to the modern millatary force who kill civilians at much higher rates.
Hamas has historically used suicide bombers in urban areas. How is that not specifically targeting civilians?

...Which would be wrong. The first intifada happened in 1987, years after (not before) Israel's military expenditure reached an absurd 30% of their GDP. The Palestinian people are clearly the ones resisting here.

If anything, Hamas is used as a scapegoat to justify Israel's existence as both a Jewish state and a democracy, two principles that far too often conflict themselves when regional integration and defense issues arise. Gaza is being mantained in subhuman conditions by Israel solely to breed this scapegoat. It's truly disgusting and I can't approve of anyone who supports it.
What does Israel's military expenditure have to do with it? Israel is surrounded by it's historical aggressors and have had military campaigns waged against them on more than one occasion by those rival nations who dispute Israel's right to exist.

The problem here is that the willingness to compromise is always held by the one on the weaker side of the conflict, while the willingness to inflict suffering is held by the stronger side. Pre-1948 Palestinians opposed the UN Partition Plan and the borders associated with it. It wasn't until Israel won significant ground in the 1948 War where they were attacked by Palestinian allies from all sides, then the Six Day War where they proactively attacked when those same forces were gathering at their borders for another assault, that they held enough land and military superiority for the Palestinian authority to want to discuss a two state solution.

From a moral standpoint I'd agree that the burden has shifted to Israel as the aggressor. The Oslo Accords had a clear path towards a meaningful peace and when Netanyahu came to power he failed to follow through on Israel's end of the agreement. But at the same time that doesn't really justify Hamas, a group best known for terror attacks on Israeli civilians, becoming a major political factor in Palestinian self-governance.

Gal Gadot is of an age where she grew up in Israel when Palestinian authorities didn't acknowledge the right for Israel to exist. That didn't happen until the Oslo Accords, and it's something that the PLO agreed to, not Hamas. Hashtagging #weareright can simply be stating the right for Jewish people to exist and/or exist in the Middle East where they currently reside.

This isn't a good v. evil fight. This is a conflict between two cultural groups who have been preyed upon by all other culture groups with power they came into contact with, then were forced into cohabitation and have proceeded to prey upon each other based on who has the strength to inflict suffering at a given point in time. It'd be great if a meaningful compromise could be found but neither side is particularly interested in that.
 

Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
Even if they did use them, she knew innocents were dying. That is my point, you would have to be a heartless bitch to think its ok to bomb people because they are used as shields.

Another thing is, Gaza is a small piece of land with over a million people living in it so where should they go if Israel is bombing everywhere asuming that there was no human sheild? They are using advanced bombs that are very high tech and they could se civilians being used as shield.

Nowhere in that post does she say it is ok to bomb people who are being used as human shields.

I also doubt they cared about the civilians when 3 kids playing at the bitch in the got bombed. I could link multiple sources if you want.

Maybe it is a language problem but I have no idea what this means.

I just googled a bit more about Hamas. From their charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Nowhere in that post does she say it is ok to bomb people who are being used as human shields.



Maybe it is a language problem but I have no idea what this means.

I just googled a bit more about Hamas. From their charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Are you dense? When she says weareright while saying hamas is hiding behind kids and women, she understand that they are being killed and that Israel does not care they are there. The fact she says iloveidf is more insulting since they are bombing them and she understand that innocents are being killed by the bombs.

This is what I meant and excuse the typo:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/israel-clears-military-gaza-beach-children

The thing about hamas is old and they have since changed that policy.
 

Dee Bill

Member
Oct 28, 2017
518
Montreal
Well, i don't need to tell everyone here how shitty Israel is. I definitely lost respect for her with a comment like that. "We are right" feels so disturbing for a place like Israel and what it's doing to the Palestinian people.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
They changed their charter didn't they?
Sure, which now basically amounts to "we won't recognize Israel, we won't give up on gaining complete control of the entire region, but we'll accept the pre-1967 borders now in the meantime."

It's nice that they removed ethnic cleansing as the core reason for everything, but they're still making it pretty clear they aren't looking to be good neighbors, which given the post-1967 borders that simply isn't viable (too much Palestinian territory surrounded by Israeli territory).
 

Palas

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,805
What does Israel's military expenditure have to do with it? Israel is surrounded by it's historical aggressors and have had military campaigns waged against them on more than one occasion by those rival nations who dispute Israel's right to exist.

The problem here is that the willingness to compromise is always held by the one on the weaker side of the conflict, while the willingness to inflict suffering is held by the stronger side. Pre-1948 Palestinians opposed the UN Partition Plan and the borders associated with it. It wasn't until Israel won significant ground in the 1948 War where they were attacked by Palestinian allies from all sides, then the Six Day War where they proactively attacked when those same forces were gathering at their borders for another assault, that they held enough land and military superiority for the Palestinian authority to want to discuss a two state solution.

From a moral standpoint I'd agree that the burden has shifted to Israel as the aggressor. The Oslo Accords had a clear path towards a meaningful peace and when Netanyahu came to power he failed to follow through on Israel's end of the agreement. But at the same time that doesn't really justify Hamas, a group best known for terror attacks on Israeli civilians, becoming a major political factor in Palestinian self-governance.

Gal Gadot is of an age where she grew up in Israel when Palestinian authorities didn't acknowledge the right for Israel to exist. That didn't happen until the Oslo Accords, and it's something that the PLO agreed to, not Hamas. Hashtagging #weareright can simply be stating the right for Jewish people to exist and/or exist in the Middle East where they currently reside.

This isn't a good v. evil fight. This is a conflict between two cultural groups who have been preyed upon by all other culture groups with power they came into contact with, then were forced into cohabitation and have proceeded to prey upon each other based on who has the strength to inflict suffering at a given point in time. It'd be great if a meaningful compromise could be found but neither side is particularly interested in that.

Israel's rise to overwhelming military power in the region is not so much a moral assessment as much as it is a simple billiard ball model observation - although Israel had been attacked or threatened by states before, it wasn't until Israel actively started becoming a regional military superpower in the 70's (and started building settlements, no less) that Palestine as a stateless nation started resisting. In a way we're saying the same thing, but I feel it would be naive to label Israel's military expenditure way after Six Day War "self-defense", because that is exactly when Israel started actively predating on other nations.

So even though it isn't a good vs evil fight, it is a power and institutional imbalance that yields predictable results (guerilla warfare, colonization, war as means to mend a fractured State). And the results are a vicious cycle that affects the weaker side a lot more. We've seen it with the Kurds, we've seen it with the Armenians, we've seen it with the Ukranians and we're seeing it with the Palestinians. Israel actions aren't innocent. They are the actions of a genocidal government.
 

Bold One

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
18,911
No I'm not asking for you to justify your standards. I'm just genuinely curious for what process you apply to determine this limit, and if you feel this is a general or a personal limit.

I disagree with you that this limit applies, but I figured that since I disagree with you I should try to understand your thinking on this.
That's a complex question with a complex answer and one which at this very moment I can not answer as I am at work.

It is rooted in a philosophy and belief system I have developed through almost 30 years of being alive.

I'll have more to say on that later.
 

Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
Are you dense? When she says weareright while saying hamas is hiding behind kids and women, she understand that they are being killed and that Israel does not care they are there. The fact she says iloveidf is more insulting since they are bombing them and she understand that innocents are being killed by the bombs.

This is what I meant and excuse the typo:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/israel-clears-military-gaza-beach-children

The thing about hamas is old and they have since changed that policy.

Maybe I am dense, but I thought resetera was about being civil to each other. I disagree with your reading of that post. And would like to see from her more detailed thoughts on the matter before condemning her as someone who supports genocide. That's all.

Thanks for the link. Horrible attack and someone should have been prosecuted for it.

Thanks for info, if they changed that policy, good.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
The fact is Israel has participated in human rights abuse since its inception, bombing indiscriminately, using phosphorous bombs, torture and imprisonment of Palestinian women and children.

No matter how much you and other hasbarists try to convince yourselves otherwise, Israel is a European colony that participated in apartheid and human rights abuses, and no amount of propaganda will change that.

Ding ding ding ding.
 

Alo0oy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,091
Bahrain
How did I not see this until now?

oqKsvUz.jpg


Do people still want to give her the benefit of the doubt?
 
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