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Nirolak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
Well, you are only looking at the US. Worldwide Detroit sold 1 million copies in 2 weeks where Heavy Rain needed 5 weeks. Digital sales mean those 1 million units also generated higher revenue, there was no digital copy for Heavy Rain. 2 weeks vs. 5 weeks seems like significant improvement no? That's reaching the milestone more than twice as fast + higher revenue, while its budget isn't twice as high as Heavy Rain's.
Usually when you're looking at this, what's going to matter a lot is final revenue and (as you noted) margin.

Heavy Rain came out on a €16.7 million budget, cost about €40 million total with marketing included, and ended up with "earned Sony" €100 million (I can't tell if that's profit or revenue).

We know that Detroit cost at least €30 from Le Monde in development costs. We're not sure what the marketing budget is. The NPD results we have are 20% up from Heavy Rain in revenue, and we know it seems like it might be up a bit more than that overall (though number of weeks doesn't really tell us as much as might be assumed because we don't know what the individual weeks looked like leg wise). Obviously digital margins are higher than retail margins, so Sony would be getting something like 95% digitally (they only have to handle payment processing fees) versus 80% at retail (no license fee cost).

It's certainly possible that this shakes out to a healthy profit in the end, but I don't think that's 100% clear.

However, what's generally going to determine if they greenlight another game is how they expect that to perform relative to costs. If they expect the budget to linearly increase to €45 million, that's a pretty healthy chunk of change. If they expect it to keep geometrically increasing, they would get a €60 million budget, which is a very healthy chunk of change. Do they expect sales to keep up with that?

Maybe they don't expect the budget to increase at all though, even with PS5 quality graphics. Maybe they're interested in greenlighting two or three smaller titles instead, like how most games in the genre are budgeted and priced. There's kind of a lot of factors there.

Even if the final numbers come in and the conclusion is "Well, that was a huge slam dunk, and we're going forward like normal.", I still feel the results we're seeing here fit my original thesis that cost is seemingly increasing faster than sales, which is why most publishers seem to want additional revenue streams past the initial sale.
 

lost7

Member
Feb 20, 2018
2,750
I mean, selling a million in 2 weeks for a game like Detroit seems pretty good to me.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,767
I'm of the belief that when you have a game that's expected to sell many millions of copies then your audience is essentially "everyone". Sort of like if you're making a hollywood blockbuster you don't release your movie the same weekend that Avengers is releasing as it's going to crush everything. If you have a smaller indie movie then sure you can bet on a small but dedicated audience to make your money back but with a $100 mil+ movie? It'd be suicide. Anthem's going to have all the hype and EA's marketing behind it so if it doesn't get delayed then it'd be wise for Days Gone (and Metro) to find another date.

No doubt about it when it comes to what companies want. But the reality is, there are those who want sandbox single player survival experiences, and have no interest in the next Destiny and vice/versa.

I think the game will do just fine, considering the demographic it will speak too (TWD/SoA/Mayans MC fans), and if they capitalize, they air the commercials around and on those shows since they are coming back within that week from the mid-season break.

Now if it were the situation like TF2, where you sandwich your shooter in between two other ones, then that would be of concern. I think it will have an impact, but not as much as if they were in the same genre, etc..

I mean, selling a million in 2 weeks for a game like Detroit seems pretty good to me.

For the type of game, I would think so too.
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
Gamepass is going to change the industry. Sony slept on PSNow and let MS take the subscription reigns.

No doubt. We already see EA jumping in w/ an equivalent service. I don't think PSNow is too late though. If they fix their PS4 library they'll probably easily surpass gamepass in subscribers. No service has really hit critical mass yet
 

dragonbane

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,585
Germany
Usually when you're looking at this, what's going to matter a lot is final revenue and (as you noted) margin.

Heavy Rain came out on a €16.7 million budget, cost about €40 million total with marketing included, and ended up with "earned Sony" €100 million (I can't tell if that's profit or revenue).

We know that Detroit cost at least €30 from Le Monde in development costs. We're not sure what the marketing budget is. The NPD results we have are 20% up from Heavy Rain in revenue, and we know it seems like it might be up a bit more than that overall (though number of weeks doesn't really tell us as much as might be assumed because we don't know what the individual weeks looked like leg wise). Obviously digital margins are higher than retail margins, so Sony would be getting something like 95% digitally (they only have to handle payment processing fees) versus 80% at retail (no license fee cost).

It's certainly possible that this shakes out to a healthy profit in the end, but I don't think that's 100% clear.

However, what's generally going to determine if they greenlight another game is how they expect that to perform relative to costs. If they expect the budget to linearly increase to €45 million, that's a pretty healthy chunk of change. If they expect it to keep geometrically increasing, they would get a €60 million budget, which is a very healthy chunk of change. Do they expect sales to keep up with that?

Maybe they don't expect the budget to increase at all though, even with PS5 quality graphics. Maybe they're interested in greenlighting two or three smaller titles instead, like how most games in the genre are budgeted and priced. There's kind of a lot of factors there.

Even if the final numbers come in and the conclusion is "Well, that was a huge slam dunk, and we're going forward like normal.", I still feel the results we're seeing here fit my original thesis that cost is seemingly increasing faster than sales, which is why most publishers seem to want additional revenue streams past the initial sale.
Yeah it all makes sense, but Sony usually defies expectations in that regard generally being more willing to be experimental. According to Quantic they never had a 3 game contract with Sony, which means after Beyond Sony still decided to greenlight Detroit. Beyond performed rather mediocre while costing more than Heavy Rain (pretty much identical increase). So if Beyond didn't ruin it, I can't see how Detroit would considering it is performing quite good and should yield a healthy profit
 

Kingpin Rogers

HILF
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,459
Pretty incredible that the PS4 is still doing so well. I figured with the hype the Switch has it would have been the top selling console for most of this year but I think that was only the case in Jan/Feb? Interested to see who comes out on top during the holiday season when Smash and Pokemon launch though, I imagine that will be a pretty big time for Switch.
 

Darth Smurf X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,038
Hoth, WI
As an aside, I'm also not expecting Sony to work with them on a 4th game.

I certainly hope that's not the case.

Also, Sony recognizes (or at least seems like they do) that not every exclusive is going to sell gangbusters, but instead relies on them to form a much larger exclusive library that is far greater as a whole than separate. Like a Voltron, if you will.

If the PS4 was just Uncharted, Horizon, GoW, TLOU that isn't as impressive as Uncharted, Horizon, GoW, TLOU, The Last Guardian, Bloodborne, R&C, Nioh, Detroit, inFAMOUS, Tearaway, Knack & SotC, right?

And many of the games that don't break sales records, still sell enough and fill genre gaps that the big boys (and girls, Aloy) don't cover. You can compare Detroit to a Telltale game all day (referring to another poster I saw), but I've played plenty and I have yet to see a Telltale game get even close to the quality of Detroit. Even Batman can't compete.

So, while they may not rake in the cash like the big hitters, they still serve a purpose and Sony would be dumb to sever ties with all the publishers that don't exceed their expectations, because their library will start to take a hit. And that's Sony's main strength right now.
 

janusff

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,139
Austin, TX
A couple of thoughts:

  • Game Pass is killing it in terms of helping sales.
  • SOD 2 beating GoW 4 shows me that cinematic single player AAA games are helpful but not a must
  • Game journalists and reviews are certainly not representative of the overall public
giphy.gif
 

Macca

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,254
I certainly hope that's not the case.

Also, Sony recognizes (or at least seems like they do) that not every exclusive is going to sell gangbusters, but instead relies on them to form a much larger exclusive library that is far greater as a whole than separate. Like a Voltron, if you will.

If the PS4 was just Uncharted, Horizon, GoW, TLOU that isn't as impressive as Uncharted, Horizon, GoW, TLOU, The Last Guardian, Bloodborne, R&C, Nioh, Detroit, inFAMOUS, Tearaway, Knack & SotC, right?

And many of the games that don't break sales records, still sell enough and fill genre gaps that the big boys (and girls, Aloy) don't cover. You can compare Detroit to a Telltale game all day (referring to another poster I saw), but I've played plenty and I have yet to see a Telltale game get even close to the quality of Detroit. Even Batman can't compete.

So, while they may not rake in the cash like the big hitters, they still serve a purpose and Sony would be dumb to sever ties with all the publishers that don't exceed their expectations, because their library will start to take a hit. And that's Sony's main strength right now.

Well put I want to see more Sony/QD collabs in the future.
 

jakob ben-oni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
253
Yeah it all makes sense, but Sony usually defies expectations in that regard generally being more willing to be experimental. According to Quantic they never had a 3 game contract with Sony, which means after Beyond Sony still decided to greenlight Detroit. Beyond performed rather mediocre while costing more than Heavy Rain (pretty much identical increase). So if Beyond didn't ruin it, I can't see how Detroit would considering it is performing quite good and should yield a healthy profit

New management at Sony with different expectations means we dont know.
 

DukeBlue

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,502
Monster Hunter is the 3rd best selling game of the year in the US I could not believe it. If you had told me this 3 years ago, I would have laughed in your face!
 

grosbard

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
767

Good constructive feedback you have there :)

Really? That is really your takeaway?

That is one of my takeaways, yes. In other words, the majority of people who purchase games are not solely purchasing cinematic AAA single player games.

You ok, just wake up from a coma?

I'm doing great, thanks! Did you just wake up from a coma? You ok?
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,375
Thats what I meant. Would media buzz translate into many more sales given the niche genre of adventure narrative? What is the ceiling for a AAA QD type game?

I think the ceiling could be higher than what Detroit has managed if it was a AAA production with a strong IP that people love? Imagine a Telltale style IP (maybe if Spider-man was being made by QD rather than Insomniac? Or a QD production level Avengers or Star Wars?) with the budget and technical talent of QD. I imagine that could do more. People are naturally gonna be drawn in to narrative games by story and characters and that's probably an easier sell if it's characters and worlds that people already know rather than 'this is a crime game' or 'imagine androids fought back'. Not to sound dismissive of Detroit or Heavy Rain. But you know what I mean?
 

Vareon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,855
That would be odd considering it is outselling Heavy Rain at the moment selling 1 million units more than twice as fast. Not sure what expectations Sony had, but if they renewed their contract after Beyond which did way worse I don't see them stopping now

The question is how much will Detroit sell until one can say the "series" experienced a healthy growth?

If I fund $16m to get 1.5 million sales and then fund $30m to get 2-3m sales, would I fund $60 next? or $30m? What if the next $30m could be added to a long-tailed service game with more revenue?

I can see their partnership continue for now, but QD will have a harder time convincing Sony.
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
Most people who downplay Days Gone in comparison to SoD2 in this very thread mention the main attractor of SoD being co-op...

People will use whatever argument is convenient but co-op is the tacked on broken portion of SoD. I mean, TLOU or AC have multiplayer but they're considered SP games. It doesn't really make sense to shove SoD2 under the MP GAAS umbrella
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,156
Yeah it all makes sense, but Sony usually defies expectations in that regard generally being more willing to be experimental. According to Quantic they never had a 3 game contract with Sony, which means after Beyond Sony still decided to greenlight Detroit. Beyond performed rather mediocre while costing more than Heavy Rain (pretty much identical increase). So if Beyond didn't ruin it, I can't see how Detroit would considering it is performing quite good and should yield a healthy profit

yep if this make profit i would be surprise if Sony does not work with them again .
As you said Beyond did rather poorly early on.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Oh my god! State of Decay 2 at #1 !? I love it! :D
One of my favorite games of the year, janky but awesome, tried it simply because it was "free" on Game Pass and ended up loving it enough that any common zombie game simply won't do it for me anymore. Celebrating it with a rough fan art! :D

 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
The question is how much will Detroit sell until one can say the "series" experienced a healthy growth?

If I fund $16m to get 1.5 million sales and then fund $30m to get 2-3m sales, would I fund $60 next? or $30m? What if the next $30m could be added to a long-tailed service game with more revenue?

I can see their partnership continue for now, but QD will have a harder time convincing Sony.
Detroit is a new IP though, it isn't required to outsell Heavy Rain.
 

Wise

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,228
I certainly hope that's not the case.

Also, Sony recognizes (or at least seems like they do) that not every exclusive is going to sell gangbusters, but instead relies on them to form a much larger exclusive library that is far greater as a whole than separate. Like a Voltron, if you will.

If the PS4 was just Uncharted, Horizon, GoW, TLOU that isn't as impressive as Uncharted, Horizon, GoW, TLOU, The Last Guardian, Bloodborne, R&C, Nioh, Detroit, inFAMOUS, Tearaway, Knack & SotC, right?

And many of the games that don't break sales records, still sell enough and fill genre gaps that the big boys (and girls, Aloy) don't cover. You can compare Detroit to a Telltale game all day (referring to another poster I saw), but I've played plenty and I have yet to see a Telltale game get even close to the quality of Detroit. Even Batman can't compete.

So, while they may not rake in the cash like the big hitters, they still serve a purpose and Sony would be dumb to sever ties with all the publishers that don't exceed their expectations, because their library will start to take a hit. And that's Sony's main strength right now.
This is a good post, and I agree with you. Not every exclusive is going to be a blockbuster 5m+ seller. If Sony only relied on games like that, then their lineup would have been a little bit "safe" in my opinion. Games like Ratchet and Clank, Bloodborne and The Last Guardian weren't mega-hits but they still sold in the 2-3m range and the developers of those games were happy with the sales. I think it's a good thing they keep making games like this even though some of them may not sell Uncharted numbers because as you said already they rely on them to help form a much larger exclusive library.
 

JayWood2010

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,120
If anything, maybe we can stop talking about Game Pass as if its a bad thing in terms of sales.

I think if anything, Sea of Thieves and State of Decay may be convincing third party developers to use Game Pass.
 

jakob ben-oni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
253
I think the ceiling could be higher than what Detroit has managed if it was a AAA production with a strong IP that people love? Imagine a Telltale style IP (maybe if Spider-man was being made by QD rather than Insomniac? Or a QD production level Avengers or Star Wars?) with the budget and technical talent of QD. I imagine that could do more. People are naturally gonna be drawn in to narrative games by story and characters and that's probably an easier sell if it's characters and worlds that people already know rather than 'this is a crime game' or 'imagine androids fought back'. Not to sound dismissive of Detroit or Heavy Rain. But you know what I mean?

Totally.

Even if it is just the world that is familiar and not the characters, I think that would help a lot—Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad for example.
 

The Last One

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,585
A couple of thoughts:

  • Game Pass is killing it in terms of helping sales.
  • SOD 2 beating GoW 4 shows me that cinematic single player AAA games are helpful but not a must
  • Game journalists and reviews are certainly not representative of the overall public

I doubt that SoD2 is close to GoW in sales. Really doubt it.
 

Sedated

Member
Apr 13, 2018
2,598
A couple of thoughts:

  • Game Pass is killing it in terms of helping sales.
  • SOD 2 beating GoW 4 shows me that cinematic single player AAA games are helpful but not a must
  • Game journalists and reviews are certainly not representative of the overall public
It's gow's second month... And sod 2 is 30$.
 

Zedark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,719
The Netherlands
A couple of thoughts:

  • Game Pass is killing it in terms of helping sales.
  • SOD 2 beating GoW 4 shows me that cinematic single player AAA games are helpful but not a must
  • Game journalists and reviews are certainly not representative of the overall public
You're comparing SOD's first month to GOW's second. I'm pretty confident GOW is far ahead of SOD (not that it matters: SOD sales should be great).
 

EBomb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
464
It's nowhere close. I don't know where people are getting this info that SoD 2 sales are close to GOW.

Check the year to date chart, GOW is at #2. SoD is nowhere in top 10

You know, it's not "people", it was one person, who could have honestly made a mistake, and could have been friendly corrected, but instead, multiple people post reaction gifs and one-liners. This person's takeaways only makes sense if they misinterpreted the data. The other two points in their post were not outlandish.
 

dragonbane

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,585
Germany
Thats what I meant. Would media buzz translate into many more sales given the niche genre of adventure narrative? What is the ceiling for a AAA QD type game?
The ceiling is pretty much Heavy Rain, so by all accounts Detroit does great. One concern raised that I do agree with is that these games continue to cost more to make (still on the lower AAA end mind you), while sales might not increase in the same way. Heavy Rain did yield a pretty great profit, so it will take quite a few more budget increases before these games become entirely unprofitable with the sales they currently get. But it is a concern. I do think though that Sony will greenlight a PS5 game from them though to bolster their line-up. Perhaps they might be eventually forced to do a sequel instead of a new IP for once. That's one aspect that's rarely considered with QD, but it is an option they have to increase sales.

The question is how much will Detroit sell until one can say the "series" experienced a healthy growth?

If I fund $16m to get 1.5 million sales and then fund $30m to get 2-3m sales, would I fund $60 next? or $30m? What if the next $30m could be added to a long-tailed service game with more revenue?

I can see their partnership continue for now, but QD will have a harder time convincing Sony.
Good point, but I don't think Quantic is there yet where it isn't profitable. Also from what I heard Detroit took longer than expected blowing the budget a bit higher than it was supposed to be. Perhaps they can even lower it for the next one
 

grosbard

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
767
It's nowhere close. I don't know where people are getting this info that SoD 2 sales are close to GOW.

Check the year to date chart, GOW is at #2. SoD is nowhere in top 10

I doubt that SoD2 is close to GoW in sales. Really doubt it.

I doubt it too. I also never said anything close to that so please go read what I said again before replying. SoD 2 isn't a major big budget AAA game but it clearly sold very well even with being on Game Pass. That's literally a fact and can't be argued against.

I'm not saying GoW 4 wasn't a good game or didn't sell very well. My point is that there is still clearly a large amount of people who are willing to purchase games that are not cinematic AAA single player games. There really isn't anything to argue against or be shocked about lol. Some people crack me up.
 

Sedated

Member
Apr 13, 2018
2,598
SoD2 being $30 makes it even better as the chart is based on revenue and not unit sales.
I'm not talking about revenue here but unit. I meant gow on its second month currently so of course beating new releases is not really expected of it and the competing game is half of its price. Gow sold most of its numbers in the first month and as you can see it's 2nd highest selling title of 2018 while sod 2 is no where in top 10
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,384
Weird that, for so many, the takeaway of State of Decay 2 topping the month's NPD chart is "wowow, Days Gone is gonna smash it!".

Not to say game X or Y won't do well (and being excited about any game is fine), but if someone thinks a resource/settlement sim is interchangeable (in a sales discussion) with a more traditional action game, that's a vague read on their part of both games.
 

patapon

Banned
Dec 7, 2017
3,614
You know, it's not "people", it was one person, who could have honestly made a mistake, and could have been friendly corrected, but instead, multiple people post reaction gifs and one-liners. This person's takeaways only makes sense if they misinterpreted the data. The other two points in their post were not outlandish.

I called 'people' because I am already seeing this narrative on twitter that SoD2 is close to GOW sales. Lol
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,973
Glad to see the industry is in a very good place, and not simply because new consoles just released. Well, the Switch is still fairly new, but you get what I'm saying.