The Most Abused Term in Videogame Criticism (Ludonarrative Dissonance) - SolePorpoise

Dusk Golem · Jul 2, 2018

"It's not perfect."

You see that all the time in video game critique, and it's the most empty blanket filler statement that could exist. It literally means nothing, instead of saying that there's much better ways to construct your critique. I've guiltily used it in the past as well, but I think this would be the most over-used phrase in video game critique, and it's terrible since it is an empty-carb hollow 'critique' as perfection doesn't fucking exist and everything has flaws, so of course it's not perfect.

Dreamwriter · Jul 2, 2018

Since I've never once even heard of this term until now, I kinda disagree that it is the most abused term in videogame criticism. If I had to guess, I'd say the most abused term is "AAA". People talk about AAA as if it is a term of quality, but in the video game world, it's only about budget. I've played low-budget games that had better graphics than some "AAA" games, some with better music, and definitely many with better gameplay.

.exe · Jul 2, 2018

Dusk Golem said:
"It's not perfect."

You see that all the time in video game critique, and it's the most empty blanket filler statement that could exist. It literally means nothing, instead of saying that there's much better ways to construct your critique. I've guiltily used it in the past as well, but I think this would be the most over-used phrase in video game critique, and it's terrible since it is an empty-carb hollow 'critique' as perfection doesn't fucking exist and everything has flaws, so of course it's not perfect.

"Mixed bag" is also one of those things that crops up in like every other review.

As for ludo-narrative dissonance, I don't see it thrown around that much other than on Waypoint and the occasional topic here, usually used correctly too.

I just wish we could all agree to drop the pretentious Latin term and just say dissonance between the gameplay and narrative like normal people.

Prototype Viktor · Jul 2, 2018

i thought term in video games is "not-racist"

Deleted member 18347 · Jul 2, 2018

The original article referenced in the video is very poignant.

Unfortunately, the dude in this vid completely fucks up by dismissing Uncharted from taking part in the argument because it lacks ludic commentary that would've otherwise introduced to it the burden of being ludo narratively harmonic. What?

Of course games don't have to adhere to this concept and can do whatever they like with gameplay in contrast with story themes, but the whole point of ludonarrative dissonance criticism is for all games to have gameplay that consistently resonates with their respective narratives for the betterment of them. No exclusions. It's something, like the author of the original article said, would take years before being considerably realized.

GoW 2018 is sound in how its gameplay segments don't contradict the narrative. In fact, the devs went the extra step justifying character actions through character comments during gameplay to smoothen those transitions in relation to the story at any given point.

So in the end I think SolePorpoise missed the point entirely.

Romars2021 · Jul 2, 2018

It just seems to me its the people who don't care about dissonance that are bothered by the term.

squidyj · Jul 2, 2018

lvl 99 Pixel said:
Pokemon has desensitized me to any kind of lesser ludonarrative dissonance.
When you start questioning every inconsistency you start sounding like an Angry Videogame Nerd knockoff

Pokemon is a wholesome family-friendly franchise about capturing wild animals in tiny cages and forcing them to fight each other, I don't see what's wrong with that.

dlauv · Jul 2, 2018

"It has 'flaws,'" when some guy is trying to gush about a game he doesn't find to be flawed without appearing too over the top. Like, no, man. State them.

NeoZeedeater said:
"Ludonarrative dissonance" describes a very legitimate issue in many games but the term itself sounds so comically pretentious. I don't have a better term to replace it, though.

This is where I'm at. It's almost inflammatory.

nib95 · Jul 2, 2018

Kinthey said:
Really good video that gives a much more defined version of ludonarrative dissonance. The way it's used currently really can feel rather arbitrary and almost ridiculous (like that one example where someone calls for ptsd to appear in uncharted)

Agreed. As he himself mentioned in the video, the call to include PTSD and other themes in Uncharted games would ironically bring the game closer to having a ludonarrative dissonance, due to introducing a much greater contradicton between the gameplay being about how fun it is to shoot bad guys, and a narrative communicating that violence is really bad.

As he states, the solutions some are calling for are the very things that would give the game a ludonarrative dissonance. Without introducing the PTSD and other violence is evil aspects, there are no themes within the game necessarily condemning violence, and the combat is just a fun gameplay mechanism to further the actual narrative, which covers other themes entirely. Essentially it really is the video game equivalent of Indiana Jones and countless other action movies, where similar questions about violence etc can arise, only not quite in the same volume due to a lack of gameplay requirement and being a much shorter overall medium.

ItWasMeantToBe19 · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
Agreed. As he himself mentioned in the video, the call to include PTSD and other themes in Uncharted games would ironically bring the game closer to having a ludonarrative dissonance, due to introducing a much greater contradicton between the gameplay being about how fun it is to shoot bad guys, and a narrative communicating that violence is really bad.

As he states, the solutions some are calling for are the very things that would give the game a ludonarrative dissonance. Without introducing the PTSD and other violence is evil aspects, there are no themes within the game necessarily condemning violence, and the combat is just a fun gameplay mechanism to further the actual narrative, which covers other themes entirely. Essentially it really is the video game equivalent of Indiana Jones and countless other action movies, where similar questions about violence etc can arise, only not quite in the same volume due to a lack of gameplay requirement and being a much shorter overall medium.

The themes of the game are about Drake being an every man whose out of his league and in deep shit.

Not many every man kills 200 people! There are implicit assumptions that every day dudes aren't killing machines.

This, of course, also applies to Indiana Jones though the body count is often a lot lower (the total body count in Raiders of the Lost Ark is 11, Drake goes through that number in two minutes). So the scale feels a bit more ridiculous in Uncharted though it still works fine.

I'm finding Fallout 4 to have way more dissonance since I'm basically killing half of the population of Massachusetts at this point since there's so many more human enemies than people at settlements.

hobblygobbly · Jul 2, 2018

NeoZeedeater said:
"Ludonarrative dissonance" describes a very legitimate issue in many games but the term itself sounds so comically pretentious. I don't have a better term to replace it, though.

Narrative dissonance, it's clearly understandable, and even though ludo and its various forms is Latin, it still doesn't really make any sense to conjugate it so directly, although I am no Latin expert... I only did 4 years of it in school.

In literature and film they don't really talk about narrative dissonance as the nature of those forms doesn't allow such a thing to develop (particularly literature), so in the context of talking about games, narrative dissonance makes perfect sense, there is no reason to use Latin incorrectly and obscure meaning.

What it describes is valid, it's just not a good descriptor, when somebody reads narrative dissonance, most people will have a better idea what that means than ludonarrative (which just doesn't make any sense when you just use Latin for the sake of it).

Onilink · Jul 2, 2018

"Anti consumer"
"Disgusting"
"The dark souls of"
... Here comes a new challenger!

nib95 · Jul 2, 2018

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
The themes of the game are about Drake being an every man whose out of his league and in deep shit.

Not many every man kills 200 people! There are implicit assumptions that every day dudes aren't killing machines.

This, of course, also applies to Indiana Jones though the body count is often a lot lower (the total body count in Raiders of the Lost Ark is 11, Drake goes through that number in two minutes). So the scale feels a bit more ridiculous in Uncharted though it still works fine.

I'm finding Fallout 4 to have way more dissonance since I'm basically killing half of the population of Massachusetts at this point since there's so many more human enemies than people at settlements.

I think it's your own misappropriated assumption that Drake is an every man. To me every man isn't raised by and as a thief, pit pocketer, deviant, burglar or conman, who then goes on to become an unscrupulous treasure hunter.

Point is, having good looks and charm doesn't in and of itself make Drake an every man. Those are things he merely uses to his advantage. He just happens to have some vague level of moral fibre and goodness, which comes in to play only on rare occasion.

The only time Drake ever nears becoming an actual every man in the entire franchise, is when he tries but fails to lead an ordinary life as a married man in the beginning of UC4, but even that is pretty short lived.

Patapuf · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
I think it's your own misappropriated assumption that Drake is an every man. To me every man isn't raised by and as a thief, pit pocketer, deviant, burglar or conman, who then goes on to become an unscrupulous treasure hunter.

Point is, having good looks and charm doesn't in and of itself make Drake an every man. Those are things he merely uses to his advantage. He just also happens to have some vague level of moral fibre and goodness, which comes in to play on occasion. The only time Drake ever actually nears becoming an every man in the entire franchise, is when he tries but fails to lead an ordinary life as a married man in UC4, but even that is pretty short lived.

Uncharted almost never aknowledges the violence perpetuated during gameplay.

Most are williing to suspend their disbelief because it's a videogame and shooting is what you do in a shooter (and we do this for a lot of games, not just uncharted).

That doesn't mean it's not dissonant.

Zem · Jul 2, 2018

"hot take"
"Ludonarrative dissonance"
"Toxic"

3 words that are so overused on here/gaming communities in general.

newmoneytrash · Jul 2, 2018

StraySheep said:
A) The term has honestly died down a bit in usage.
B) It works imo, even if you have different feelings on whether that is a deal-breaker for you.
C) I am super skeptical of YouTubers calling out game critics.

I agree on all points tbh

Kinthey · Jul 2, 2018

Patapuf said:
Uncharted almost never aknowledges the violence perpetuated during gameplay.

Most are williing to suspend their disbelief because it's a videogame and shooting is what you do in a shooter (and we do this for a lot of games, not just uncharted).

That doesn't mean it's not dissonant.

The point in the video is that it's not dissonant with the theme of the game. Dissonance would be if the theme was about how bad violence is while the gameplay highlights how fun violence is.

nib95 · Jul 2, 2018

Patapuf said:
Uncharted almost never aknowledges the violence perpetuated during gameplay.

Most are williing to suspend their disbelief because it's a videogame and shooting is what you do in a shooter (and we do this for a lot of games, not just uncharted).

That doesn't mean it's not dissonant.

Honestly, just watch the video. The exact point you bring up is discussed in the video at length.

In it the author states that the harshest criticism that can be levelled against Uncharted is that its ludic themes don't fully complement its narrative themes due to a lack of thematic emphasis, but that ultimately they don't actually actively contradict each other, hence there is no ludonarrative dissonance. The thematic emphasis and acknowledging the violence in the way you're asking, is ironically what would make the game ludonarratively dissonant, since it would then specifically create contradictions between the themes of the narrative and the gameplay itself.

esserius · Jul 2, 2018

Most games have extreme dissonance between play and narrative, or complete separation. Players don't really seem to care though. See pretty much all God of War 2018 discussion, or a huge number of other games, recent and otherwise. What's more frustrating is to ignore it as a legitimate criticism or state that it's not appropriate at all.

Aters · Jul 2, 2018

Uncharted has a problem with its tone and that word describes it well.

Crow Pudding · Jul 2, 2018

For me it's in every rpg where you have a Resurrect spell/item but then people dies in the cinematics.

esserius · Jul 2, 2018

Crow Pudding said:
For me it's in every rpg where you have a Resurrect spell/item but then people dies in the cinematics.

Most RPGs tend to just define these as downed states (unconscious, KO, etc.) rather than dead. That said, in some RPGs there are also real explanations as to why. Also, plot armor has existed for generations, so it's not as if this is somehow untoward.

Deleted member 37928 · Jul 2, 2018

I feel like this term is mostly used in games with somewhat realistic settings and characters? I can understand why it so often comes to mind, as there's often a disconnect between what a game tries to tell and what the player does to affect that. But part of gaming is just to accept some ground rules; like continues, reviving, excessive kill counts etc. I don't see how developers can work around those in order to maintain an interesting and somewhat forgiving game design. Yes, It's weird that Ellie is invincible in The Last of Us when the story is about the difficulties of her survival, but losing her at the beginning because you got careless would be even weirder? You'll have to account for so many new design decisions in order for that to work effectively.

Plum · Jul 2, 2018

Kinthey said:
The point in the video is that it's not dissonant with the theme of the game. Dissonance would be if the theme was about how bad violence is while the gameplay highlights how fun violence is.

And that point is highly, highly flawed as it's pure conjecture based on evidence to support Hocking's original argument instead of the definition he gave for the term itself. The only definition Hocking originally gave (and, considering SolePorpoise didn't bother to reach out to the guy, the only definition he ever gave) was this:

a powerful dissonance between what it is about as a game, and what it is about as a story

With the rest of the article going on to explain why Bioshock itself has dissonance, not what "ludonarrative dissonance" should and should not be. To put it bluntly, it shouldn't matter that Uncharted isn't explicitly about violence in its story because it's still about violence in its gameplay, and considering what that game's story is about arguing that there is no dissonance there based on such evidence is pedantic to a fault.

Tekku said:
I feel like this term is mostly used in games with somewhat realistic settings and characters? I can understand why it so often comes to mind, as there's often a disconnect between what a game tries to tell and what the player does to affect that. But part of gaming is just to accept some ground rules; like continues, reviving, excessive kill counts etc. I don't see how developers can work around those in order to maintain an interesting and somewhat forgiving game design. Yes, It's weird that Ellie is invincible in The Last of Us when the story is about the difficulties of her survival, but losing her at the beginning because you got careless would be even weirder? You'll have to account for so many new design decisions in order for that to work effectively.

Criticism of something doesn't need to have an easy fix attached to it to be valid criticism as criticism is not an explicit order for x developer to do y thing. It's simply a way of pointing out flaws in a game that could potentially be worked on in the future, and it's up to the developer, not the critic, to decide whether they want to heed the advice. Utterly dismissing the phrase and mocking it up like most people do (including Neil Druckmann of TLoU fame) will ultimately only keep the status quo or, in cases like Uncharted 4, make it a lot worse. Yes, making Ellie (or any other follower character) fit naturally into both story and gameplay is difficult, but it's not impossible.

julia crawford · Jul 2, 2018

Galactor said:
Besides Uncharted where did it make sense?

It was invented to critique Bioshock, so... that.

Patapuf · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
Honestly, just watch the video. The exact point you bring up is discussed in the video at length.

In it the author states that the harshest criticism that can be levelled against Uncharted is that its ludic themes don't fully complement its narrative themes due to a lack of thematic emphasis, but that ultimately they don't actually actively contradict each other, hence there is no ludonarrative dissonance. The thematic emphasis and acknowledging the violence in the way you're asking, is ironically what would make the game ludonarratively dissonant, since it would then specifically create contradictions between the themes of the narrative and the gameplay itself.

Nah, there is not a hint in Drakes behavoiur that he mows down dozens of people on the regular. And that's not only drake, his peers ignore it too. Him and a 50 year old dude just causally walk in a mercenary camp and massacre everyone and no one cares. They "non lethally" throw people off walls when robbing a museum ect.

Drake doesn't have to proclaim being a pacifist for what's going on on the screen to be dissonant with what the story pretends is going on on the screen.

Just like Lara doesn't have to proclaim hating violence for it not to make sense that a 20 year old college student on her first expedtion is an accomplished killing maschine the moment she lands on the island. The gameplay never aknowledges the character the story tells us Lara is. That's true for small moments too, in one of the first cutscenes she is impaled on a spike and right after the game makes you jump across cliffs as part of a tutorial.

It's not just something you see in action games, it's super prevalent in small and big things in gaming. JRPG's are a big one, for example.

That doesn't make these games bad, but being upset that dissonance is being pointed out (not you, just in general) is really strange to me. It's plain as day.

esserius · Jul 2, 2018

Patapuf said:
Nah, there is not a hint in Drakes behavoiur that he mows down dozens of people on the regular. And that's not only drake, his peers ignore it too. Him and a 50 year old dude just causally walk in a mercenary camp and massacre everyone and no one cares. They "non lethally" throw people off walls when robbing a museum ect.

Drake doesn't have to proclaim being a pacifist for what's going on on the screen to be dissonant with what the story pretends is going on on the screen.

Just like Lara doesn't have to proclaim hating violence for it not to make sense that a 20 year old college student on her first expedtion is an accomplished killing maschine the moment she lands on the island. The gameplay never aknowledges the character the story tells us Lara is. That's true for small moments too, in one of the first cutscenes she is impaled on a spike and right after the game makes you jump across cliffs as part of a tutorial.

It's not just something you see in action games, it's super prevalent in small and big things in gaming. JRPG's are a big one, for example.

That doesn't make these games bad, but being upset that dissonance is being pointed out (not you, just in general) is really strange to me. It's plain as day.

It's definitely something that's become more common of late in particular, as games that are more cinematic tend to often be very directly separated from the gameplay. It started in earnest during the PSX days, and a big part of that was the huge success of games like Final Fantasy VII. That said, it didn't really have a stranglehold on the industry until the PS2 era, where much more conglomeration occurred. Since then it has almost been prescriptive in how many games freely separate the play and narrative yet really make no distinction between them or link them in a non-trivial manner.

Psittacus · Jul 2, 2018

I think the point he touches on in the video is that the broadened term isn't necessary because it isn't confined to games.

For example, Man of Steel and The Matrix have the same problems. But they're not games so the term can't apply and you shouod use a different one to convey the idea.

Vex · Jul 2, 2018

Zem said:
"hot take"
"Ludonarrative dissonance"
"Toxic"

3 words that are so overused on here/gaming communities in general.

This is the hottest of takes.

mrfusticle · Jul 2, 2018

HiroTSK5 said:
So is the term overrated?

Well played. That's many frames per second more irritating.

Patapuf · Jul 2, 2018

Psittacus said:
I think the point he touches on in the video is that the broadened term isn't necessary because it isn't confined to games.

For example, Man of Steel and The Matrix have the same problems. But they're not games so the term can't apply and you shouod use a different one to convey the idea.

The difference to a movie is that the dissonance isn't the result of an abstracted system you engange in through play. It's just storytelling that asks you to suspend your disbelief. Like we do for any fantasy setting.

nib95 · Jul 2, 2018

Patapuf said:
Nah, there is not a hint in Drakes behavoiur that he mows down dozens of people on the regular. And that's not only drake, his peers ignore it too. Him and a 50 year old dude just causally walk in a mercenary camp and massacre everyone and no one cares. They "non lethally" throw people off walls when robbing a museum ect.

Drake doesn't have to proclaim being a pacifist for what's going on on the screen to be dissonant with what the story pretends is going on on the screen.

Just like Lara doesn't have to proclaim hating violence for it not to make sense that a 20 year old college student on her first expedtion is an accomplished killing maschine the moment she lands on the island. The gameplay never aknowledges the character the story tells us Lara is. That's true for small moments too, in one of the first cutscenes she is impaled on a spike and right after the game makes you jump across cliffs as part of a tutorial.

It's not just something you see in action games, it's super prevalent in small and big things in gaming. JRPG's are a big one, for example.

That doesn't make these games bad, but being upset that dissonance is being pointed out (not you, just in general) is really strange to me. It's plain as day.

I don't think you read or even understood my post, and you clearly haven't actually bothered to watch the video as you're repeating the same point over again and seemingly disregarding any and all context or further detail.

But to your more specific point, in which we seemed to have moved beyond the discussion around ludonarrative dissonance and in to a more vague discussion around dissonance in general, I would argue what you're discussing is an intrinsic part of entertainment media and fiction in general.

These works of fiction in movies, games, books, shows etc, they're not often about perfectly depicting or replicating realism, not in physics, events, action, accountability or in tone, in fact, it's often the complete opposite, it's exaggerated and superfluous for the sake of entertainment.

As a result, these works of fiction are not always going to be constantly filling in narrative context which would only serve to create actual narrative dissonance. Ultimately they're about entertainment escapism and best representing their own narrative, characters, gameplay or whatever else.

We're not constantly questioning the actions, abilities, capabilities, death count etc of characters like Indiana Jones, Lara Croft, Drake, James Bond, Ethan Hawke, John McLane, or in movies like Fast and Furious or whatever else, because within the context of these works of fiction, some suspension of disbelief is not only a matter of necessity, but expectation to some degree, based on the medium and genre itself.

The same applies to Nathan Drake (and many other video game and movie characters) and his climbing, running, stamina, killing abilities etc. The only context we need is that he's highly capable and is killing bad guys who would otherwise kill him if he didn't kill them first (highlighted by the fact that they can and do actually kill you), eg the bare minimum requirement for most characters and works of entertainment fiction described above.

Deleted member 198 · Jul 2, 2018

dorjjj said:
I still believe the term frame-pacing was solely invented to shit on Bloodborne.

I feel bad for you.

esserius · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
We're not constantly questioning the actions, abilities, capabilities, death count etc of characters like Indiana Jones, Lara Croft, Drake, James Bond, Ethan Hawke, John McLane, or in movies like Fast and Furious or whatever else, because within the context of these works of fiction, some suspension of disbelief is not only a matter of necessity, but expectation to some degree, based on the medium and genre itself.

Yes, we are constantly questioning them. Some simply have a lower bar. Few are so uncritical to not notice such dissonance, and suspension of disbelief in some films is by no means a necessity or an expectation. And because games have many more rules rather than guidelines, they tend to require a heightened suspension of disbelief, even from the expectations often taken advantage of in films.

nib95 said:
The same applies to Nathan Drake (and many other video game and movie characters) and his climbing, running, stamina, killing abilities etc. The only context we need is that he's killing bad guys who would otherwise kill him if he didn't kill them first (highlighted by the fact that they can and do actually kill you), eg the bare minimum requirement for most characters and works of entertainment fiction described above.

Except the bare minimum makes for awful storytelling and world building. That said, when games are almost entirely just about their gameplay (stuff like beat-em-ups for example), a lack of context is usually fine.

nib95 · Jul 2, 2018

esserius said:
Except the bare minimum makes for awful storytelling and world building. That said, when games are almost entirely just about their gameplay (stuff like beat-em-ups for example), a lack of context is usually fine.

Except it doesn't, because some of the said games have some of the best story telling, world building and characters in gaming, and were critically acclaimed and incredibly well recieved partly for it.

It seemingly only makes for awful storytelling and world building to those who have a misunderstanding of or overtly ridgid take on the medium, or towards entertainment fiction in general, and do not allow themselves any suspension of disbelief, which is to some degree required in most blockbuster orientated fictional works.

Patapuf · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
I don't think you read or even understood my post, and you clearly haven't actually bothered to watch the video as you're repeating the same point over again and seemingly disregarding any and all context or further detail.

But to your more specific point, in which we seemed to have moved beyond the discussion around ludonarrative dissonance and in to a more vague discussion around dissonance in general, I would argue what you're discussing is an intrinsic part of entertainment media and fiction in general.

These works of fiction in movies, games, books, shows etc, they're not about perfectly depicting or replicating realism, not in physics, events, action or in tone, in fact, it's the often the complete opposite, it's exaggerated and superfluous for the sake of entertainment. As a result, these works of fiction are not always going to be constantly filling in narrative context which would only serve to create actual narrative dissonance. Ultimately they're about entertainment escapism and best representing their own narrative, characters, gameplay or whatever else.

We're not constantly questioning the actions, abilities, capabilities, death count etc of characters like Indiana Jones, Lara Croft, Drake, James Bond, Ethan Hawke, John McLane, or in movies like Fast and Furious or whatever else, because within the context of these works of fiction, some suspension of disbelief is not only a matter of necessity, but expectation to some degree, based on the medium and genre itself.

The same applies to Drake (and many other video game and movie characters) and his climbing, running, stamina, killing abilities etc. The only context we need is that he's killing bad guys who would otherwise kill him if he didn't kill them first (highlighted by the fact that they can and do actually kill you), eg the bare minimum requirement for most characters and works of entertainment fiction described above.

Ludonarrative dissonance is the conflict between story and play. Some games are better at intertwining their systems and stories than others, but it's super common. I agree that it's generally expected that the audience accepts the dissonance (just like they suspend their disbelief for a story).

However it's also perfectly fine if a critic points out when a particular dissonance bothers him. One can argue whether copious amount of shooting contradicts the overall theme for Uncharted or not but if a critic feels it does the usage of the term is completely apt.

What the video author wants out of the term is way too specific.

esserius · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
Except it doesn't, because some of the said games have some of the best story telling, world building and characters in gaming, and were critically acclaimed and incredibly well recieved partly for it.

It seemingly only makes for awful storytelling and world building to those who have a misunderstanding or overtly ridgid take on the medium, or towards entertainment fiction in general, and do not allow themselves any suspension of disbelief, which is to some degree required in most blockbuster action orientated fictional works.

Many games, much like many movies, have also not aged well. Crash was critically praised upon release and a look back on it shows just how bad it was as a movie. You'll find this to be the case with an extraordinary amount of older games if you go back and take a more critical eye to them. Game reviews also do not tend to be as critical as film reviews in a general sense, due to many factors, not the least of which is the newness of the media (that said, critical approaches to video games are behind the same timeline movies followed, but they are also a more complicated media, given so many edges of other media are rubbing against it).

Most of those critically acclaimed cinematic games might be decent stories or decent games, but very rarely do they stand up to criticism when combined (and what's more, very few criticisms are actually pointed at the combination of cinematic and play elements, instead seeing the two as entirely separate and judging them as such, as if they have no or little connection to one another).

nib95 · Jul 2, 2018

Patapuf said:
Ludonarrative dissonance is the conflict between story and play. Some games are better at intertwining their systems and stories than others, but it's super common. I agree that it's generally expected that the audience accepts the dissonance (just like they suspend their disbelief for a story).

However it's also perfectly fine if a critic points out when a particular dissonance bothers him. One can argue whether copious amount of shooting contradicts the overall theme for Uncharted or not but if a critic feels it does the usage of the term is completely apt.

What the video author wants out of the term is way too specific.

That's the vague Wiki summary sure, but the author of the video dissects the term based off of Clint Hocking's paper and assessment of it, in which he coined the term. And a more specific take on it is what we should be after, otherwise it's too broad and easily conflated and confused.

As the author states, if a game like Uncharted or Tomb Raider constantly filled in the narrative context of violence being bad, along with the repurcussions, whether emotional or social, or whatever else, there actually would start to be a contradiction between the gameplay and story, because on the one hand the narrative would be telling you that violence is really bad, whilst on the other hand a core part of the gameplay would be about enjoying the combat.

Essentially the narrative context you're asking for is what would increase the ludonarrative dissonance, eg create and shine a light on the conflict or contradiction between the narrative and the gameplay. Ultimately it's not like adding context to say that violence is bad would somehow hand wave away the moral or psychological aspect of the violence you were committing either way.

Patapuf · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
That's the Wiki summary sure, but the author of the video dissects the term based off of Clint Hocking's paper and assessment of it, in which he coined the term. And a more specific take on it is what we should be after, otherwise its too broad and easily conflated or confused.

As the author states, if a game like Uncharted or Tomb Raider constantly fills in the narrative co text of violence being bad, along with the repurcussions, whether emotional or social or whatever else, there actually would start to be a contradiction between the gameplay and story, because on the one hand the narrative is telling you violence is really bad, whilst on the other a core part of the gameplay is about enjoying the combat. Essentially the narrative context you're asking for is what would increase the ludonarrative dissonance, eg create and shine a light on the conflict or contradiction.

What i ask for is not more narrative expositoin but a better representation of the narrative exposition that is there in the gameplay. I don't need a 15 minutes explanation of why Lara can jump despite having a deep wound from a spike i need her to not be able to jump.

Eumi · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
As the author states, if a game like Uncharted or Tomb Raider constantly fills in the narrative co text of violence being bad, along with the repurcussions, whether emotional or social or whatever else, there actually would start to be a contradiction between the gameplay and story, because on the one hand the narrative is telling you violence is really bad, whilst on the other a core part of the gameplay is about enjoying the combat. Essentially the narrative context you're asking for is what would increase the ludonarrative dissonance, eg create and shine a light on the conflict or contradiction.

That doesn't mean the criticism is invalid, it just means that this single solution to it you've presented has its own issues.

Asmodai48 · Jul 2, 2018

Never heard the term before.

nib95 · Jul 2, 2018

Eumi said:
That doesn't mean the criticism is invalid, it just means that this single solution to it you've presented has its own issues.

Right, but there are actually only are two real solutions I can think of to counter or avoid this criticism.

A.) Either add narrative context to the violence and increase or create actual ludonarrative dissonance. Eg a more direct contradiction between the themes of the narrative and the core gameplay itself.

B.) Remove the violence or combat altogether.

Obviously either of the above would be far from ideal, hence we have the situation we have now, which is the best balance director's and writers can currently strike. It's not like they aren't aware of these criticisms. There have been many discussions on this topic from game developers, and essentially the current balance was the most successful they could conjure from both a narrative and gameplay perspective.

esserius · Jul 2, 2018

Patapuf said:
What i ask for is not more narrative expositoin but a better representation of the narrative exposition that is there in the gameplay. I don't need a 15 minutes explanation of why Lara can jump despite having a deep wound from a spike i need her to not be able to jump.

Yeah, and that seems like a pretty sensible assumption. Like, a big part of what makes Final Fantasy VI work at some level has a lot to do with how characters and their gameplay are tied to one another (Locke is a Thief and steals, Terra is an esper and uses Magic, etc.). It's also what makes stuff like Harry Potter work and The Lord of the Rings and, well, most other works of fiction. And the reason these works are compelling tends to be embedded in how they tie aspects of characters to their world. And many, many videogames do not.

nib95 · Jul 2, 2018

Patapuf said:
What i ask for is not more narrative expositoin but a better representation of the narrative exposition that is there in the gameplay. I don't need a 15 minutes explanation of why Lara can jump despite having a deep wound from a spike i need her to not be able to jump.

But that would just make for an unnecessarily bogged down and unfun game. Like, how many times are you going to get shot or injured in this game? Unless it's an injury that has a very specific scene or narrative element associated with it, there's no reason it should impact gameplay, else all it would do is make the gameplay potentially frustrating and inhibiting.

As I said, the object of games, movies or entertainment media in general isn't to necessarily perfectly and accurately replicate real life, it's to entertain. Part of that involves the expectation from viewers that these characters are going to be doing somewhat fantastical things and show a level of resilience and bravery that is beyond the norm.

Ironically, in the new Tomb Raider film Lara gets injured and is hobbling about one minute, but jumping a massive gap the next. It is what it is. Call it adrenaline along with an incredible pain threshold and skills that allow it if you must lol.

Eumi · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
Right, but there are actually only are two real solutions I can think of to counter or avoid this criticism.

A.) Either add narrative context to the violence and increase or create actual ludonarrative dissonance. Eg a more direct contradiction between the themes of the narrative and the core gameplay itself.

B.) Remove the violence or combat altogether.

Obviously either of the above would be far from ideal, hence we have the situation we have now, which is the best balance director's and writers can currently strike. It's not like they aren't aware of these criticisms. There have been many discussions on this topic from game developers, and essentially the current balance was the most successful they could conjure from both a narrative and gameplay perspective.

The value in the criticism is not just how it could be used to directly alter Uncharted itself.

By looking at the issues that Uncharted has other game devs can try to figure out how to avoid them, if they were making a game in which they don't want that kind of dissonance to exist. The makers of Uncharted have pretty much stated that they couldn't care less, but by discussing and dissectingwhere this dissonance comes from we come to better understand it, and a better understanding of how videoganes can make people feel things just makes people make better games.

I mean, a lot of my favourite games outright use this dissonance to manipulate the player. By directly contrasting gameplay with narrative, you can really make a player feel conflicted about what they're doing. And if we didn't understand ludonarrative dissonance through discussion and criticism like this, methods like that may not even exist.

You're limiting the use of the criticism way too much.

esserius · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
But that would just make for an unnecessarily bogged down and unfun game. Like, how many times are you going to get shot or injured in this game? Unless it's an injury that has a very specific scene or narrative element associated with it, there's no reason it should impact gameplay, else all it would do is make the gameplay potentially frustrating and inhibiting.

As I said, the object of games, movies or entertainment media in general isn't to necessarily perfectly and accurately replicate real life, it's to entertain. Part of that involves the expectation from viewers that these characters are going to be doing somewhat fantastical things and show a level of resilience and bravery that is beyond the norm.

Ironically, in the new Tomb Raider film Lara gets injured and is hobbling about one minute, but jumping a massive gap the next. It is what it is. Call it adrenaline along with an incredible pain threshold and skills that allow it if you must lol.

This is an extremely simplistic view of video games and entertainment media in general. It presents itself as entirely unconcerned with critical approaches.

To get to the heart of it: who decides what is fun? And, why does a video game need to be fun?

nib95 · Jul 2, 2018

esserius said:
This is an extremely simplistic view of video games and entertainment media in general. It presents itself as entirely unconcerned with critical approaches.

To get to the heart of it: who decides what is fun?

Not at all, I'm just not going to berate a game for not being something it was never intending or presenting itself to be, and that would fundamentally change what the game was and how it played in the first place, all for the purpose of chasing absolute realism. Patapuf's complaint was basically that violence in TR isn't realistic enough, which to me seems like a very nit picky complaint. If an injury impairs your ability to move or jump, why then doesn't a single gunshot kill or permanently impair you? It's a rabbit hole that doesn't make sense within the confines of what the game is going for.

And who decides what is fun, the game developers and the consumers who play their games obviously. Devs are going to play test these things and come up with what, to the best of their abilities or within their budget and time constraints, they think works best.

Mind you, I'm not saying an ultra realistic violence sim (where every injury impairs you for ages) wouldn't or couldn't be fun, just that to me at least its not necessarily fitting for this Tomb Raider (where constant mobility is so important). But who knows, maybe they could make it work if they designed an entire game around it.

On your edit:

esserius said:
And, why does a video game need to be fun?

Theoretically a video game doesn't need to be fun, but video games are not a charity, they cost money and time to develop (games like TR and UC cost tens of millions and were made by hundreds of people), and obviously recouping said costs and ideally profiting, is generally a major factor or point of consideration. It is for that reason that being fun or entertaining is usually important or vital to the success of a game and/or studio.

Eumi said:
The value in the criticism is not just how it could be used to directly alter Uncharted itself.

By looking at the issues that Uncharted has other game devs can try to figure out how to avoid them, if they were making a game in which they don't want that kind of dissonance to exist. The makers of Uncharted have pretty much stated that they couldn't care less, but by discussing and dissectingwhere this dissonance comes from we come to better understand it, and a better understanding of how videoganes can make people feel things just makes people make better games.

I mean, a lot of my favourite games outright use this dissonance to manipulate the player. By directly contrasting gameplay with narrative, you can really make a player feel conflicted about what they're doing. And if we didn't understand ludonarrative dissonance through discussion and criticism like this, methods like that may not even exist.

You're limiting the use of the criticism way too much.

I don't think they ever said they didn't care, just that they couldn't think of any way around it without negatively impacting their narrative and gameplay.

Patapuf · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
But that would just make for an unnecessarily bogged down and unfun game. Like, how many times are you going to get shot or injured in this game? Unless it's an injury that has a very specific scene or narrative element associated with it, there's no reason it should impact gameplay, else all it would do is make the gameplay potentially frustrating and inhibiting.

As I said, the object of games, movies or entertainment media in general isn't to necessarily perfectly and accurately replicate real life, it's to entertain. Part of that involves the expectation from viewers that these characters are going to be doing somewhat fantastical things and show a level of resilience and bravery that is beyond the norm.

Ironically, in the new Tomb Raider film Lara gets injured and is hobbling about one minute, but jumping a massive gap the next. It is what it is. Call it adrenaline along with an incredible pain threshold and skills that allow it if you must lol.

If a game get's bogged down it's just bad game design. To invoke my tomb raider example: it's perfectly possible to make interesting encounters designed around temporary limitation. Especially in a game that's full of similar encounters.

I have never encountered a game where sucessfuly tying narrative and gameplay toghether made a game worse. It's not about realism, it's about when a metal gear game asks you to hold your controller upside down to mirror what's happening on screen. It's when the UI is thematically incorporated into whats happening in undertale or nier and many more examples.

That doesn't mean Tomb raider or Uncharted or a number of other games are bad games because they don't manage that. But they could be better if they did.

(and 90% of Tomb Raiders dissonance could be solved by not pretending she is a helpless rookie in the first 90 minutes of the game, it's really not that hard).

GongagaSOLDIER · Jul 2, 2018

To be fair the term makes absolute sense. Ludo (taken from the original latin for game 'ludum') and narrative quite literally describing the way something is being told or quite literally the method a story is being told through. People begin to come across problems with the term because it was created as part of an academic framework for ludologists who study the ludological elements of video games. Ludology is focused on the players as they play, how they play and sees games as a series of systems and rules as opposed to narratology, which appreciates games as narrative forms that can be studied as 'digital literature'.
In this original context where 'ludonarrative dissonance' became popularised it was used as a debate between the two groups about how and what elements of a game were important to study, challenging the epistemological viewpoints of each group. That some call it pretentious is because in some ways it's very origins are, but that doesn't take away from the fact the term is perfectly valid.
Papers, Please is a perfect example of ludonarrarive harmony, the narrative told through a players interaction with the game makes perfect sense to the overarching story being told, both systemically and narratively it is a cohesive design. On the other hand Tomb Raider is problematic because the gameplay loop is at odds with the characterisation of Lara. I think where the term trips up in popular usage is being utilised as if this dissonance is always a bad thing when for players it is very much a good thing, how much of your interest would have been kept if Lara climbed at the pace of a real person or died every time you did a jump across a ledge a little too hard? In some gameplay loops having an element of dissonance is necessary, even if games should aspire to frame this disparity better.

esserius · Jul 2, 2018

nib95 said:
Not at all, I'm just not going to berate a game for not being something it was never intending or presenting itself to be, and that would fundamentally change what the game was and how it played in the first place, all for the purpose of chasing absolute realism.

And who decides what is fun, the game developers and the consumers who play their games obviously. Devs are going to play test these things and come up with what, to the best of their abilities or within their budget and time constraints, they think works best.

Mind you, I'm not saying an ultra realistic violence sim (where every injury impairs you for ages) wouldn't or couldn't be fun, just that to me at least its not necessarily fitting for this Tomb Raider. But who knows, maybe they could make it work if they designed an entire game around it.

Nobody is chasing realism here, and I don't know where you got that idea from. That said, we are chasing sensible context (whether to the world or to base assumptions) for play and the cinema in which it is presented.

Ludonarrative dissonance is a term used to describe a disconnect between play and associated embedded cinema, which is not so much a critical approach as an observation that has gained more traction as video games continue to focus more on storytelling without connecting it to play. The term itself is neutral, as all it does is describe a phenomenon.

That aside, the focus on a video game being fun or entertaining above all else greatly hampers the potential of the media. And if that's all that matters to you, that's fine, but the approach is not critical because it is without definition, and is prescriptive of what the media should be, rather than what it could be. Auteur theory is a critical approach (even if it's extremely solipsistic) to films entirely because it has a definition of what film can be and what expands that (i.e., the director and a reflection of their vision). From that theory, a person like Kojima is probably the closest to what I'd call a video game auteur, in that his games are very much a reflection of him (problematic though they are). Meanwhile, Papers, Please is a reflection on political issues and the practice of their implementation presented through play (i.e., the central theme is an issue, rather than an individual). Some modern critical approaches to video games relate how politics can be reflected through play and present those ideas in a more digestible manner. Regardless of whether that is what video games are or should be about, it gives definition to what they might be about, and how they could expand.

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