No, I'm telling you why the double standard exists, not that I agree with it.
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[New York Times]: In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
- Thread starter Thisman
- Start date
No, I'm telling you why the double standard exists, not that I agree with it.
The doubling of punishments has been reported before elsewhere:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43214596
Though I have no idea how this wouldn't violate some sort of constitutional protection.
I've also read about the mandatory classes elsewhere, the ankle bracelet idea is new (and crazy)
A good example of someone using the word racist as a way to end discussion and try to make themselves better than the other person.
This story is completely anecdotal, but it's a bit relevant and I also find it funny. My girlfriend was born in Denmark, but moved to the U.S. when she was one year old. We were in Denmark last fall visiting her family and during our trip we spent an evening with a married couple who are friends of my girlfriend. Over dinner politics and Trump came up and the two Dane's had a great time laughing about Trump and his wall along the Mexico border. This is all fine. What blew my mind was that they then immediately transitioned the conversation into complaining about all of the middle-eastern/Muslim immigrants and what a problem it is and how it must be solved etc... The irony was astounding. They sounded *exactly* like Trump supporters who want the wall built! I just laughed to myself on the inside and didn't comment. I don't particularly enjoy discussing politics in public and certainly not over dinner with people I just met two hours prior.
I find this incredibly hard to believe in countries like UAE and China so I'm assuming you're just using confirmation bias.
Japan is not the best example of immigration policies. Actually a lot of "expats" are complaining about it.
As said before government involvement can exist. Unemployment offices can send people to language courses (as well as any other courses) to complete their skill set. I'm pretty sure the welfare money are conditioned by it in a lot of countries. Sending the kids to kindergarten can be a condition for child benefits. But it should apply to everybody.
The law as is described in this article goes well beyond that. It's a classic example of discrimination and forced assimilation.
It's still not the problem of that lady who speaks what language. It really isn't. Unless he's so xenophobic that she can't resist hearing other languages.
Fairly misleading topic-title.
The "ghetto-plan" applies to all living in areas classified as ghettos - it´s not taking etniticity or religious views into account.
Also, if the children are attending normal daycare they won´t have to do anything else related to this plan.
The "ghetto-plan" applies to all living in areas classified as ghettos - it´s not taking etniticity or religious views into account.
Also, if the children are attending normal daycare they won´t have to do anything else related to this plan.
the word is probably not used formally in the bill, but it's used informally by the danish government to sell these policies
example from the prime minister's new years speak:
nordic countries has forced schooling laws that apply to everyone
it's when you single out certain communities and create special laws for them that it becomes problematic
Yeah I don't need to know her. That quote tells me everything I need to know and it's a shared mentality all across the western world not just Denmark. This isn't about integration concerns, it's about trying to punish minorities for coming there while trying to hide behind "Oh but we're just trying to help them!"
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Trump is going to be inspired by this.
It's amazing how many atrocities happen in the name of Christianity and yet so many that practice the religion don't feel the need to police and correct this behavior from their peers.
It's amazing how many atrocities happen in the name of Christianity and yet so many that practice the religion don't feel the need to police and correct this behavior from their peers.
I would learn it, I expect the same from people that join the country I currently live in. If I move or immigrate to a different country I would learn the language, obviously I expect the same from others.
I don't claim anything, I just said that the core idea is good. There are always cases of people not learning the language for some reason.
Not that I like his statement but that is how capitalism works, difficult to deny that there is a difference. Though I would expect people to learn the language in both cases.
How do you get people to go to these classes? If you send someone to big them up people will scream racism or concentration camps.
I can agree that the law mentioned in the OP article is badly worded and crafted. The core idea is correct though, you want people of all ages to engage in your society if they immigrated to your country. Especially young children should have a relative easy time learning a language in daycare/kindergarten.
No matter what you propose people will probably continue to scream racism. No clue how you solve that problem, because I consider learning the language a given if you move. =/
I lived with my family in Taipei for nearly half a decade and none of them spoke a lick of Mandarin except me since I had it in school - none of my friends' families bothered trying to mingle with the locals either.
Money lets you isolate yourself rather easily.
My dad mocks Trump constantly then switches over to complaining about criminal Moroccans without missing a beat.
It's really easy. Don't make laws targeting specific communities, make laws valid for everybody.
Making welfare payments dependent on having them attend seminars or classes = fine. Doubling of punishments for "ghettos" to pander to voters = not fine. I'm not sure why this is hard to follow.
And these "ghettos" are predominantly composed of?
Do you too believe the Muslim Ban Trump recently imposed isn't actually "Muslim" because he added a dozen people from other ethnicities, who were already banned, to it?
The NYT article seems to be based off of this Reuters article from May.
The language part will be tested out in schools as mentioned here.
Dr. Mario Ghetto neighbourhoods are a legal term and 22 have been identified so far.
An area is listed if its population matches at least three of five social criteria, which are:
And what's known about the 'ghetto plan'
Here's another Reuters one on how the immigrants in these neighbourhoods feel.
The language part will be tested out in schools as mentioned here.
Dr. Mario Ghetto neighbourhoods are a legal term and 22 have been identified so far.
An area is listed if its population matches at least three of five social criteria, which are:
- The population is more than 50% non-Western immigrant
- More than 2.7% have criminal convictions
- Unemployment is above 40%
- More than 50% have only a basic education
- Average gross income is less than 55% of the average for the region.
And what's known about the 'ghetto plan'
Here's another Reuters one on how the immigrants in these neighbourhoods feel.
An area being 50+% not-western is a one criterium for being listed as a ghetto. It's pretty clear who's being targeted here.
I get the sense on this forum (and the old one) that people think Scandinavia is some utopia.
We have problems. Integration (or lack thereof) one of them.
While Danish xenophobia is well-known, I'm not sure we are getting the full story from the New York Times. The article is sparse on details and is highly focused on the opinion of one person and on poorly explained proposed legislation that may or may not actually have a chance to pass . It's also very misleading sometimes. For example, I thought it was weird that children so young are taken into daycare but apparently most Danish kids attend day-care at that age:
Does anyone have another (Preferably non-Anglo) source to contrast? It seems there's far more than what the NYT is showing us.
Wikipedia said:
Does anyone have another (Preferably non-Anglo) source to contrast? It seems there's far more than what the NYT is showing us.
Now I understand, they want them to speak Danish so they are able to answer questions like this
Yeah, here's an official bulletin:
https://www.regeringen.dk/nyheder/ghettoudspil/liste-over-ghettoer-og-udsatte-bolig-omraader/
Special laws for designated ghettos. Man that's some tone deafness coming from nextdoor neighbors of Germany, damn.
Maybe this should be in the OP to avoid the "It seems there's something more than xenophobia here" Boogie takes.
May not be the best example, but the forced language learning is something I can agree with because I personally would do it. To me it is something like a courtesy to your new country, something along the lines of good manners.
It may not be her problem directly, but who's problem is it in the end? If nobody cares then nothing gets done to solve problems. Yes, she is racist, shes she should have no problem listening to other languages. At the same time she should be able to expect some level of language skill in people that permanently live there now.
Of course, you don't need ankle monitors and other extreme stuff.
Might be, makes the entire article sound like a biased hit piece if you combine the lady they interviewed, the laws and rules mentioned and the mentioning of information missing from danish sites by posters in this thread.
No need for double punishment if they integrate and follow the rules everybody else follows, I agree. Maybe I misunderstood the article or the excerpts in the OP didn't do a good job at describing the broad range of the law. Sorry if it sounded like I wanted to specifically want to punish immigrants.
The wording is really bad. Though which values should they teach? Whatever you say will sound bad regardless and sounds like imperialism and colonization on top of it. By saying this you inherently put one side of values of the other, someone will take issue with that. =/
Thats because lots of people here think that if you have tons of economic safety nets and it automatically means everything is fine and totally liberal and racism can't exist.
like anyone in Central or Northern Europe gives a shit about Christianity anymore, unless they need something to differentiate themselves from Muslims
this ain't like the US, the churches are empty
Dr. Mario Well even though it was Norway there's always a Quisling remnant somewhere around the region (and in most places). People forget history pretty easily.
KingSnake I think there have been protests over this. I'm not certain about it. Currently Denmark is the only country in the world to have legalised an area as 'Ghetto' with criteria that looks like masked xenophobia. There are a few political parties against this but they're a minority. The major opposition isn't entirely against it either.
KingSnake I think there have been protests over this. I'm not certain about it. Currently Denmark is the only country in the world to have legalised an area as 'Ghetto' with criteria that looks like masked xenophobia. There are a few political parties against this but they're a minority. The major opposition isn't entirely against it either.
Yes, of course. I in no way intended to imply that hypocritical behavior is somehow unique to the Danish.
I don't have sources or studies, buuuuuut I'd wager a guess that there is an extremely high chance that kids of any culture will learn about Christmas and Easter without being classified as ghetto children and being forced out of their mothers' care at an age when they can't really comprehend much of their surroundings. Just a hunch.
Languages can be learned a bit later. Kids learn quickly. No reason why a mandatory Danish language learning can't just be tied to kindergarten, maybe offer the OPTION for parents to put their children in day care focused on teaching the language earlier but a year in kindergarten should be more than enough to learn to speak and understand the language at a level that is decent enough for 1st grade. Not like all natives are all that fluent with the language at that age.
Are you telling me the CSU is just pandering to nativists with their law mandating crosses in all public buildings?! Perish the thought
Oh I know, just pointing out this behaviour is rather common in Europe.
Absolutely. I don't think these "ghetto laws" are a good idea either. But I do think learning he language should be a requirement for getting economic assistance, because it's SO key to having functioning integration (which we largely don't right now). We have to be able to require some effort from people who come here.
Better integration is forcing them to adhere to the dominant religion in the country? No, it's not at all. If you want better integration you make them want to be part of the culture, you don't force them to be. That's only asking for resentment.
And you only objected to the 1 year old thing which is why I responded the way I did.
Forcing integration isn't effective.
Funny that you bring up Japan, which is a hugely xenophobic country. Also, when I visited, tons of people spoke English. You know why? Because tourism is not an insignificant amount of their economy.
To me it sounded like she shouldn't concern her with anything regarding this topic, which kinda seems like apathy regarding politics. Sorry if I misunderstood you there. =/
Rereading the OP it seems some stuff is simply missing. Nothing with ankle monitors or that Denmark actually has a legal definition of "Ghetto". Seems weirdly biased and loaded and not good reporting.
Sorry if I came off as overly punishing on immigrants. Simply going by the OP I assumed that "Ghetto" was article speak and the actual law is much simpler and harmless. Of course you shouldn't segregate and discriminate against immigrants.