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Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,868
May it be my shifting tastes, my lack of maturity, or my reluctance to go past Final Fantasy X during my younger years, but FF12 continues to surprise me year after year. In fact, I'm one of the not-inconsequential number of people who went from "I got this day one and hated it with all my heart" to "I can confidently say it is one of the best Final Fantasy, if not the very best I've played". Such a turnaround happened seven years ago for me, and it keeps happening to many people around the world.

I think a lot that comes with this transition is that FF12 is a game that requires a level of engagement that was never needed from the fanbase before, and probably a sign of Matsuno's handprints all over the game. FF12's story and themes doesn't remove itself from the world it is set. It doesn't use Ivalice as a complimentary piece to the story, but as an integral part of it. The storyline becomes much more than the sum of its cutscenes. It is an everything that accompanies it at every step of the way.

It's very interesting in a way, and I think FF15 made me more receptive in figuring out the way a story is built and how it intersects with other parts of the universe it exists in. This is not a FF15 bashing thread though, I just think it's an important point of comparison for me:

Social groups and politics


What I've come to appreciate in FF12 over FF15 is how it doesn't remove itself from the class politics that undoubtedly exists whenever you put a story of kings and men. Noctis' story is the story of a legend. A predetermined, god-backed journey to save the world from a world-ending threat. FF15 doesn't spend an ounce of irony on questioning his worth. He was born to do it, and so he shall. Even further, any mention of his people is something that is largely performative, he thinks about them but he doesn't see them, he doesn't live through the same kind of oppression that they face. Mostly because FF15 saw fit to completely shelter us from Insomnia, so whatever happens inside is hearsay or reports. Even then, all of Noctis' close entourage is a privileged one so we don't get to hear it from the people we seek to protect and save.

Final Fantasy 12 couldn't be further from this situation. It is unquestionably a game that pits various social groups in the middle of political unrest. Rabanastre' annexation by the Empire makes us see the misery and pain of the people first-hand through the lens of a street urchin. It doesn't sugarcoat what they have to live through, as segregation, brutality and racism against non-hume races is being openly displayed. FF12's focus on building the world gives the framework needed to shape the story in a convincing way. Taking the time to engage with NPCs is enough to be assured of it:

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It's also a focus that gives voices to various types of opinions, from people who supports the empire, to those who seeks to topple it. It isn't a clear-cut landscape of the Big Bad against the forces of good. Which also is something that is invariably etched into Ashe's struggle to liberate Dalmasca. Her quest isn't automatically assumed to be benevolent, especially as her privileged position isn't just hand-waved away like your cookie-cutter fantasy game. Ashe was removed from the throne, but she isn't assumed to have lived the same kind of struggle as the people living in Dalmasca during the period of annexation. In fact, Vaan directly says to Ashe: "Before, I didn't even know what you looked like. And the Prince -- I barely knew there was a prince", as a subtle message on how his experience will always be starkly different from hers. They have not lived through the same things. It also comes from an incredible cutscene by itself that clearly explains Vaan's behaviour and motivation, something that people keeps acting like it never existed and keeps parroting his "I want to be a sky pirate" line. Vaan repudiates the romanticizing of Reks' sacrifice, preferring to find his own answers rather than hide himself behind his thirst for revenge.



The Empire is also far more ambiguous despite its cruelty. Larsa's role against the machinations of Vayne shows that there are different factions even within the Empire. Vayne's role, as insidious and evil as it looks, seems to serve a purpose that, while done through horrific manners, has some basis in truth. Even within the Judges, their allegiance goes beyond blind subservience. It's only slightly related but it makes it funny to remember a thread on the old forum, which blasted FF12 for not allowing us to fight every judge like it was an episode of Naruto. Some of the judges weren't even against us! That people could unironically think that characters with different kinds of motivation isn't as important as cool people in armor to beat up makes me wonder if that's the kind of thing that the JRPG audience even wants anymore. All kind of politics happening in a fantasy game just seems to get removed more and more, and it seems to work well in terms of reception.

Even the lousiest Final Fantasy used to have a story of political ramifications. It's what shapes the characters in those games to have depth, Cecil's loyalty to the Empire, Shinra's cruelty against Avalanche's branded eco-terrorism, Alexandria's conquest, slavery and genocide against multiple races. This stuff is done away more and more, with the welcome exception of FF14.

Engaging the player through meaningful dialogue

It's weird to say this, but the way you get to experience the struggle of the people couldn't happen without a character like Vaan who lived and survived in this struggle. Vaan is in many ways essential to the kind of world Ivalice wants to be. Even more, his position as someone who lived there allows for the NPCs to be more relevant than ever. That's why the more a player is investing themself into exploring and talking inside the world of Ivalice, the more they are rewarded with a richer, more diverse Ivalice. You need to take the time to listen to the experiences of people, just like in real life. Exploring the lowtown of Rabanastre gives a lot of opinions about the least privileged among the social makeup of the kingdom. This is why this game has so many dialogues that keeps changing after every story beat ! It tells you that the more you want to know about this world, the more you'll get to have a better understanding of what's going on around you.

You get to know how the Empire is a racist one through numerous dialogues, which clashes with the multi-cultural hub that Rabanastre is
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You also get to know how the Lowtown (previously a warehouse) was repurposed as a way to segregate the poorest and give easy access for the army to round them up if the Empire decides to get rid of them.
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It also sheds more light in the existing chasm in the times before the annexation that leaves the way for the middle and upper classes to be complacent about the fate of this city.
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There's many stuff that you get to read that makes up a convincing world that is essential for the story to communicate its depth.

And it just goes on and on. I could speak about how the voice acting effectively communicates the difference in terms of culture and origins, with Rabanastre mostly sporting american english whereas Archades has mostly a received pronunciation like a lot of fantasy stories. There is also the Viera who has an icelandic accent, and Bhujerbans with Sri Lankan accent. Meanwhile, I still don't know where Dino comes from in FF15, who mysteriously sports a New York City accent that no one else seems to have.

The dialogue and subjects also completely changes from city to city, exploring Bhujerba is not the same as exploring Rabanastre, they are two cultures with a different history. The supposedly neutral city of Bhujerba shows the story of a hub with equal citizenship to all, you even get to learn that the Moogles are the ones who first settled here and built the city, who still live here with the respect they deserve.

This is the kind of consistency and attention to detail that I've come to appreciate. But I think one fundamental way to enjoy Final Fantasy XII to this fullest extent is to realize that maybe one playthrough isn't enough to realize it.

The re-discoverability of Final Fantasy XII


The level of craft on display when it comes to Final Fantasy XII has had never been replicated before or since this game in the Final Fantasy series, with the exception of MMOs by virtue of being a live service.

There comes a point where I think a huge aspect of what makes me enjoy this game isn't that I gave it a second chance, it's that I took the time to sincerely engage with another reading of the game. It's akin to reading a book for a second time: you got the gist of it, but reading it again with your initial knowledge makes you understand and appreciate where it tries to go, and I think that's a huge quality when it comes to a video game. To have the level of depth that makes several readings of the game necessary not to get the full picture, but to have a close understanding of where it tries to go, and why is something that I appreciate more and more. I'm less into comfort food and more into fulfilling experiences at this point in my life.

A huge aspect of the game is for events in the future to shed more light in what happened in the past. It is especially true with the case of such an ensemble cast. You can't pick up on everything happening in one go, it's simply not possible when it's a story that has roots in every aspect of its universe rather than using it as a fancy backdrop. It also has another aspect, that I consider to be a quality, and it is the fact that all characters joins your party from the beginning of the game. You don't have to deal with characters being introduced at the end of the game and losing focus on the narrative, giving itself more space to expand and unravel in more complex ways.

Playing this game more than once made me realize how little I knew, and made me pick up things I would have never picked on. Something that I wouldn't say about many Final Fantasy out there, which are all a case of "what you see is what you get".

Here's one detail thing that I deeply enjoyed, Gabranth can't seem to face people without his mask. Everytime he takes it off, he comes off as a considerably weaker person that lets his emotion show, especially when his loyalty to the Empire is being questioned both by his brother and Vayne. And it's true, Gabranth' loyalty is wavering because he himself knows that it is just a mask to hide what he feels, and how he believe what kind of kingdom Archades should be, as he deeply respects the pacifist ideals of Larsa.


Replaying this game today has been an even more enlightening experience as to what kind of game Final Fantasy XII wants to be. An intricate, multi-layered game that applies into all facets from the story to the world-building and gameplay. It doesn't settle for any less than offering the depth that can only be fully understood and assimilated through several playthroughs. And it does so while still retaining player freedom, something that was largely forbidden in Final Fantasy X. It was the evidence that a sprawling JRPG like this could still tell engaging and complex stories while leaving the keys to the player on how to experience it. You couldn't play this game with the baggage of previous FF and expect it to work out. It was another breed entirely, something that was closer to Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics. I realize we will never get another single-player Final Fantasy like this, not because of quality, but because it is fundamentally different from the rest, and players has largely spoken about the kind of adventure that they want to have instead. It doesn't matter, however, as the core of this game is one that values world-building, freedom and writing, something that can be replicated regardless of budget. Final Fantasy 14 is largely one of those, as its inspiration of FF12 and other Matsuno games shows everywhere, and there is a reason many people values the story, lore and characterization of this game even more than they do for other games in the franchise.

I strongly believe that Final Fantasy XII was in many ways ahead of its time, but it also came out at the right time. It was allowed to be made in an era where it could deliver on what it set out to do with no cutbacks. Some games will, and already are receiving accolades for things that FF12 already succeeded in 12 years ago, but I'm glad I got to experience this game and value it for what it is even as its achievements will be lost to history. An excellent game that I'm going to enjoy discussing about for the next 12 years.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,536
Excellent thread! I'm so happy to see FFXII's remastering change many people's minds, because despite its shortcomings, it does encapsulate the somber and realistic thematic elements and issues that Final Fantasies rarely do so comprehensively, and which set it up in many ways as a stark opposite of FFXV. It's Matsuno worldbuilding through-and-through, which is far and away the best part of his games—even better than and highly informing of the plot.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,785
Detroit, MI
That's one of the best things about FFXII is even tho it still has all the magic trappings, it's much more grounded in realistic sociopolitical themes.
 

SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,397
Washington
The truest of threads. FFXII is one of the most fulfilling video games I've ever played, and probably my all time favorite RPG. It's just a monumental achievement in almost every way, and it's so baffling that (especially back in 2006) the traits of FFXII that I unquestionably adored are also the things that many folks decried as flaws.

It also has the best setting. The best. It's believable, grounded, but incredibly fantastical and imaginative. It has the throes and varnish of a medieval setting but is stylized so uniquely and intricately with elements like guns, airships, and pseudo-futuristic tech without breaking the illusion of FFXII's Ivalice being a fully fantastical setting. The art direction across the board in FFXII (barring some specific character designs) is just unmatched.
 

Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,528
"don't interrupt me, vaan" always gives me a chuckle tho.
Great thread anyway, even if I can't really relate cause I loved ffxii even the first time I played it, and I just bought it on steam and played it for the 5th time.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
Absolutely fell in love with FFXII in first sight, imagine my surprise when I found out the game was divisive on the Internet.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
It's a great game, those towns look fantastic, the loud music and British voices give a gravitas to it. But it's least 20 hours overlong. I' have love some side quests to elaborate on some of the characters and to make travelling more meaningful, some of the character like Fran are charming and yet we learn little about them.
 

AgentOtaku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,446
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Fantastic OP!

I too am finally replaying it proper after having beat on PS2 waaay back in 2008.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT, this may well be THE best Final Fantasy after IV (^______^)

Utterly adore the writing, voice acting, grounded (for the most part) plot, ensemble cast, art, etc.

Also, I've finally grown to love the music now that it has a proper orchestral score. Previously I thought it was just sorta there on PS2, but with Zodiac Age, it's front n' center and magnificent!
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,524
Currently in the middle of rediscovering FFXII through The Zodiac Age after playing through much of but never finishing the original PS2 version, I do believe that it was the last truly great thing to come out of the franchise (can't comment on XIV, as I don't play MMOs).
 

AgentOtaku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,446
Currently in the middle of rediscovering FFXII through The Zodiac Age after playing through much of but never finishing the original PS2 version, I do believe that it was the last truly great thing to come out of the franchise (can't comment on XIV, as I don't play MMOs).

I'm actually replaying both XII and XV.... XV because my son just loves that world.

While I'm falling in love with XII all over again, I find myself doing the opposite with XV, which initially loved when I first played it.
 

EVA UNIT 01

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,736
CA
You mean a not shit story?
I love that too.
*stares at FFXV*

Its a hell of a game that got passed on back then
 
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Yabberwocky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,264
Such an excellent and well thought out post, OP, thank you so much for sharing! (Your Evil Within 2 post from the other day was a fantastic read as well.)

I loved FFXII when I was a kid, but so much of it went over my head. Replaying it as an adult has been a really rewarding experience, and whilst the new additions to TZA are welcome, it's astonishing how well the game itself and the core gameplay has aged. The localization and dub voice work remains timeless. FFXII's definitely got its issues (I maintain that if one puts FFXII+FFXII+FFXV together they all cover each other's weaknesses), but it's still such a standout in so many areas. The gameplay, the art direction, the level design, the variety in locales, the huge bestiary, the core story and characters... so good.
 

Gatti-man

Banned
Jan 31, 2018
2,359
For me, 12 was the last great final fantasy. Everything since then has been pretty terrible besides ARR.
 

Sub Level

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,517
Texas
I played english translated izjs on an actual ps2. I knew xii was good when i talked to the poor citizens in archadia. The game does a good job establishing its setting.
 

gfxtwin

Use of alt account
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,159
Probably my favorite too. Deep license board and job systems, the open level design (starkly contrasted with the linearity of FFX and FFXIII), the fact that annoying random encounters are gone and enemies seamlessly appear in the environments as they would in any game, that gorgeous PS2-era impressionistic art style. A wonderful balance of modern and classic FF imo.
 
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Mad Max

Member
Oct 27, 2017
151
Probably the best FF game and jrpg I've played. Somehow it still makes me mad when people don't like it, even 12 years after playing it. :P
 

7threst

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,297
Netherlands
I admit that I only got to really appreciate it proper when I played it on PS4. I haven't finished it, but will start a new game tonight in celebration of this thread.

I can get completely mesmerized by the gambit system. Like, trying to set up perfect gambit configurations feels so freaking rewarding. Pretty weird.

Only thing that kind of bothered me was the free form way of shaping your characters with skills and attributes through the license board. I mean, it's cool how you are free to shape the characters, but I'm worried I choose poorly and have a completely unbalanced party throughout the game.
 

nuoh_my_god

Member
Nov 11, 2017
169
Ireland
All what OP said plus one of the most important things to me compared to WRPGS up until then:

Meaty end game

By far the best "end game" content among FF games.
 

Dragon1893

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,446
I'm glad to see more and more people coming around, I was hoping that the remaster would have this effect, the game was just ahead of its time.
I've loved it since its original release.
 

tiesto

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,865
Long Island, NY
When it comes to RPG storytelling, I'm more excited by 'big picture' stuff, so a lot of what FFXII was trying to do (the political minutia popular in Matsuno's games) didn't really work. My biggest issue was definitely with the gameplay... too many dungeons/environments that dragged on for far too long and the battle system wasn't as engaging as even XIII's or (to use a more blatant comparison, the Xenoblade series').
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Something a lot of people forget when discussing FFXII is that the gameplay was designed by Hiroyuki Ito, not Matsuno. Ito was the man in charge of the gameplay, battle system, gambit system, etc.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,893
Columbia, SC
OP making me want to dig out and dust iff my PS2 again. My favorite FF by far. TZA will be in my library before the end of the year. Gotta get through my backlog first
 

Yerffej

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,577
My second fave FF. Hope whatever is next is closer to it in many ways.
 

J_ToSaveTheDay

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
18,852
USA
One of the most memorable Final Fantasy games in the series for me personally. I was very lucky that the game clicked for me at some point, which I have always attributed to FFXI being my first MMO and imprinting both an appreciation for that general style of timed turn based combat and an acceptance that that kind of gameplay could hold a Final Fantasy game up.

Back then, a younger version of me just thought it was the FF fanbase skipping over FFXI as the cause of FFXII being difficult to swallow... Flawed logic, but I was convinced if I had shipped FFXI over, I probably wouldn't have given FFXII a chance.
 

blitzblake

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
3,171
If someone could enlighten me as the best way to use the combat system?? It seems that physical attacks are given more preference what with the gambit system and all. I've always played this game with everyone being a physical attack class and just set them to attack nearest/party leader target, and then use the rest of the gambits for removing status effects and healing. Then just speed up the combat and watch everything die.

The issue web using magic I find is that you need a seperate gambit slot per element, and there's no way for the system to auto select enemies that are weak to it, so you end up having to play as a turn based system, rather than the active system. (Otherwise you end up casting magic that actually heals certain enemies or has no effect)

Are magic classes just wasted in this final fantasy?
 

skillzilla81

Self-requested temporary ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,043
Final Fantasy XII is the best Final Fantasy game ever.

This is a great post OP. Awesome observations. I find that I like FFT, Tactics Ogre, and FF12 far more the older I get.
 

Marluxia

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
104
Final Fantasy XII is by far my favorite FF game. It was excellent from my point of view.
 

sora87

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,869
I should probably get around to actually finishing this one day, without the "this is a weird final fantasy" thought in my head
 

Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
So many hot takes saying thatFF12 was bad when it was released, but I found it up in my top 3 with FF6 and FF8.
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,551
Loved this when it came out. The Gambit system had me obsessed. Glad some people could see the light eventually lol. I never did finish it though I was like 80 hours in. If they ever put the remaster on Switch, I think I'll replay it.
 

Deleted member 19218

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,323
The game was always fantastic.

It was a nice change, it was less character driven and more about observing the politics of this world. Kind of like Forrest Gump. There, I compared Final Fantasy to Forrest Gump.

So many hot takes saying thatFF12 was bad when it was released, but I found it up in my top 3 with FF6 and FF8.

The hilarity is that the next game was FFXIII. It's as if Square Enix just heard complaints and went in the complete opposite direction. All of a sudden FFXII must have seemed so much better. Be careful what you wish for.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
5,867
Mount Airy, MD
Love this thread about my favorite goddamn FF game, and honestly, probably my favorite game period. I keep thinking I should get a FF XII tattoo to complement my Vagrant Story one, but I haven't settled on a specific image I like.
 

Hate

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,730
I appreciate it especially in the graphics department.

I just didn't like the gameplay too much nor the low power levels it had compared to the previous ones aside from tactics.

Farthest I've gone is the "I'm captain Basch!".

I haven't tried the HD edition yet which seems to have improved some stuff.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,867
Mount Airy, MD
If someone could enlighten me as the best way to use the combat system?? It seems that physical attacks are given more preference what with the gambit system and all. I've always played this game with everyone being a physical attack class and just set them to attack nearest/party leader target, and then use the rest of the gambits for removing status effects and healing. Then just speed up the combat and watch everything die.

The issue web using magic I find is that you need a seperate gambit slot per element, and there's no way for the system to auto select enemies that are weak to it, so you end up having to play as a turn based system, rather than the active system. (Otherwise you end up casting magic that actually heals certain enemies or has no effect)

Are magic classes just wasted in this final fantasy?

No way man. You get enough gambit slots that you can easily throw a bunch of specific element weaknesses in. I also use a lot of technicks like Shades of Black (which casts a random black magic spell) to fuck shit up with my magic-users. The vast majority of my gambits are magic and healing-related.
 

The Emperor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,790
Absolutely the same thing happened with me

The game has incredible characters and writing. Feels rushed towards the end but hey ho.

A masterpiece tbh.

The fast forward speed helps the game greatly in the remaster. Erases the pacing issue as you get through the vast world quickly
 

Graciaus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
732
I would really like to play it again. I bought it day one and can't say it was my favorite. It was probably ahead of its time but I think I'd appreciate it more now. One day when it is heavily discounted I'll get the steam version.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,184
playing through Zodiac Age right now... you can definitely tell it was released in 2006 by its world design. not particularly a bad thing but its sort of glaring 12 years later after so many open world rpgs

lot of things you have to get past, lot of "what could've been" extrapolations you can make playing the game and knowing the history of its development. but still a great game, gambit system, story based on political intrigue instead of earth energy stuff and jrpg romance tropes, lot to admire about it
 
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SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,510
Earth, 21st Century
I liked it a lot until the halfway point. I stopped there both back at release, and with XII HD. Without the strong narrative pushing the game forward, it becomes a slog. A slog through gorgeous areas with a fun, experimental battle system, but a slog nonetheless. I did read up on the plot that is there, and it's great, but the dead time between cutscenes and laser focus on hunts and map exploration killed it for me.

If the whole game felt like the first half (up until a little after the Tomb of Raithwall) it would be in my top three FFs.