lemonade

Member
May 8, 2018
3,048
Need some non-spoiler advice. Early in the game, right now I just play the character that showed up in a previous character's story and try to keep track of the storyline.

Should I instead stick to one character at a time and finish all of their branches available before moving to another character?
 

Tibarn

Member
Oct 31, 2017
13,386
Barcelona
The thing about honorifics to me is that they're the worst of both worlds. On one hand you're intentionally making your English dialogue less understandable (I had to look this all up when playing Persona 4) and also flow worse because people don't speak like that in English. On the other hand, those that care so much about it "feeling" Japanese... don't play with the dub anyway. Because why would you, just play with subtitles. So you're pandering to... no-one.
Yep, I'm used to play games with English subs and Japanese audio, and I automatically associate the lack of honorifics in the text as something natural. I'm also used to read honorifics in subbed anime, but it is really a thing that one needs to get used to. I suppose that the translation team considers this game aimed only to anime watchers, which is kind of dumb and limits the sales potential.

It must sound so dumb to people who don't know what "pan" means in Japanese.
Exactly. I'm used to this, and tbh I speak fluent Spanish and "pan" is also bread in Spanish, but for players who don't speak Japanese and don't know what a melon/yakisoba pan is, it must be confusing, as pan is another thing in English.
 

Lemony1984

Alt Account
Banned
Jul 7, 2020
6,872
Need some non-spoiler advice. Early in the game, right now I just play the character that showed up in a previous character's story and try to keep track of the storyline.

Should I instead stick to one character at a time and finish all of their branches available before moving to another character?
It's up to yourself really. But I've been playing one character until I'm blocked and then moving onto another related character and that's worked pretty well.
 

Tibarn

Member
Oct 31, 2017
13,386
Barcelona
If you're playing a niche visual novel that's impossible to find in stores and takes place mostly in 1985 Japan, odds are you already have some knowledge of honorifics, or are willing to look it up, or discern what they mean based on context.
I think that a better solution would be the localization... localizing as much as possible, as other japanese games do, or at least keep the honorifics only for the players that have selected JP audio.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,537
Canada
Need some non-spoiler advice. Early in the game, right now I just play the character that showed up in a previous character's story and try to keep track of the storyline.

Should I instead stick to one character at a time and finish all of their branches available before moving to another character?

I've been clearing what I can for one character at a time. It's been helping me remember which paths I've already taken, and which options to choose to get onto different ones, if possible.

Most of the big revelations regarding particular characters don't really happen in their own stories, though.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
Sorry for re-asking this.

What's the difference between the blue flow chapters, and the orange ones? Please.
 

aCid

Member
Aug 18, 2018
335
Canada
Honestly not sure, but I think score determines the mystery point rewards and S rank is based on the different damage criteria (city, terminal, and pilot) I think

Ah yeah, I could see that being the case for sure.

Here's a minor detail that is really cool:

At the start menu (before you "press any button") the (fantastic) music track is all muffled like you're hearing it from outside a car. But then, soon as you press that button, it gets amplified like it's blasting all around you. So cool!
 

Qurupeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,281
Finished the game! Daaaamn, this is my GOTY. What a fantastic story, with so many themes, cool narratives and great characters, all being tother creating something really engaging and unique.

OK, I found it absolutely funny how many Juros and Chihiros existed essentially. lol I'm glad that Megumi ended up with Juro, but also Chihiro with Juro Izumi. All the shippings on the game felt perfect.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
I don't think I can ever be moved off my position that honorifics are horrible in any English context, but ESPECIALLY a dub. It feels like a failure of localization to include them. I don't think it adds anything to the script and the character relationships that makes it more meaningful than smart writing could, and it makes it worse by taking you out of the sale of the realism when characters are using language in ways you would almost never hear it.

Having the characters speak English you can forget even despite it not making sense because it's like the game completely throwing up its hands and saying "just go with it." You just melt into it because it's a standard that is universally applied. The only time it gets thrown off is in really niche situations when like characters start referencing the language itself or something. But with the honorifics, they're a constant reminder like EVERY OTHER SENTENCE that the game is in this weird middle ground with the way something is being presented and the way you're supposed to be imagining it in the back of your head.

I dislike it in Persona and I dislike it here. The fact that it takes place in Japan is more of an argument against it than for it for me. The closer you get to reality, the more you're creating this weird, unrealistic non-existent middle ground. The more AWAY from the real world you get, the more you can justify it... but I still wouldn't do it.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,537
Canada
I think that a better solution would be the localization... localizing as much as possible, as other japanese games do, or at least keep the honorifics only for the players that have selected JP audio.

That's what they did do, though.

Basically the whole game is based around the (shifting) relationships between the player characters, and the honorifics are one way of providing information to the player as to how two characters are related during a particular scene.

Apart from "Sir" or "Mrs" (which wouldn't work with the upperclassmen) there are no real direct equivalents, so excising them entirely would either lead to English users missing information, or the localizers crudely inserting these relationships with nicknames or whatever, which most likely wouldn't be possible if they had to stick within the existing constraints.

It's media specifically about another country. They're not trying to pretend that it's in America, so the player needs to understand that concepts like using a certain name based on a level of familiarity or honorifics exist.
 

SxP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,896
...I don't really get how honorifics are that difficult?

They're a quick and easy way of signifying one character's relationship to another character. It's harder to communicate that same information organically, especially if they need to stay within the set animations or number of text boxes.

I'm sorry, but this is so ridiculous it's almost impressive. Not translating something is the opposite of quickly and easily signifying something.

It's like using very, very, specific jargon. Sure, if you're intimately familiar with the jargon, it's quicker and easier than a lengthy explanation. But that's IF you're intimately familiar. Any regular folk would need a trip to Wikipedia.

The honorifics in Japanese localization are quite simply pandering. This only happens in Japanese localizations and only because of some "purity check" that is deeply ingrained in weeb culture.
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
When watching some people play it with English audio, it really cracks me up when they decided to dub it "yakisoba pan" instead of taking some liberties and calling it a "yakisoba sandwich". It must sound so dumb to people who don't know what "pan" means in Japanese. Even saying bread would've made more sense.

tenor.gif
they should have gone full 4kids dub

"Oh man I love this spaghetti donut"
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,537
Canada
I'm sorry, but this is so ridiculous it's almost impressive. Not translating something is the opposite of quickly and easily signifying something.

It's like using very, very, specific jargon. Sure, if you're intimately familiar with the jargon, it's quicker and easier than a lengthy explanation. But that's IF you're intimately familiar. Any regular folk would need a trip to Wikipedia.

The honorifics in Japanese localization are quite simply pandering. This only happens in Japanese localizations and only because of some "purity check" that is deeply ingrained in weeb culture.
  1. Please explain how you'd communicate the same information within the existing animation and text box constraints.
  2. Why do they say "kaiju"? Why not "strange beast" every time?
  3. Why not localize all the Japanese names? American audiences could probably follow the story better if they were named Jack and Bob and such.
It's okay for media to present words or concepts that are unfamiliar to people. If I'm reading a book and I don't know a word I don't hold it against the author for not defining the word. If it seems important I'll look it up, and if it doesn't seem important I'll just feel what it means based on the context in which it's used.

It's a personal preference that you don't like them, but there are reasons beyond pandering or imagined purity checks.
 

Zonic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,993
Sorry for re-asking this.

What's the difference between the blue flow chapters, and the orange ones? Please.
I THINK the orange ones require you do something like using the right keyword on a character or doing something timed in order to progress. Looking at the ones I've unlocked, they all seem to be stuff required by you compared to just being a flat-out cutscene.
 

TitlePending

The Fallen
Dec 26, 2018
5,370
  1. Please explain how you'd communicate the same information within the existing animation and text box constraints.
  2. Why do they say "kaiju"? Why not "strange beast" every time?
  3. Why not localize all the Japanese names? American audiences could probably follow the story better if they were named Jack and Bob and such.
It's okay for media to present words or concepts that are unfamiliar to people. If I'm reading a book and I don't know a word I don't hold it against the author for not defining the word. If it seems important I'll look it up, and if it doesn't seem important I'll just feel what it means based on the context in which it's used.

It's a personal preference that you don't like them, but there are reasons beyond pandering or imagined purity checks.

So if the names are changed to English names, then what about the locations?
 

LProtagonist

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
7,767
Nearing the end, it seems. I think I have most things figured out, just sorta need to see how it all goes together.
 

Gyoru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,675
I need help, Yuki scenario (around 28%)

I'm stuck for the progression, the only path i can get is in front gate of the school i have three branche, the third don't seem to be lock with a keyword, but i really don't know who to activated it....

Help would be appreciate
I'm in the same boat. That's the only part in anyone's story that has stumped me so far. I'm just wandering all over the school, but there's nothing new to trigger.
Try exiting to the left at the front gate. You should trigger an encounter with someone familiar.
 

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,048
Try exiting to the left at the front gate. You should trigger an encounter with someone familiar.
I can't even find the key needed to get to that area. All I can do is go to three different areas of the school. The roof, hallway, and athletics building. I've talked to everyone.
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
I can't even find the key needed to get to that area. All I can do is go to three different areas of the school. The roof, hallway, and athletics building. I've talked to everyone.
i did the same. If youve done everything else, hang around the classrooms and an npc will appear and give you a keyword
 

Soriku

Member
Nov 12, 2017
7,040
Picked up the game from Best Buy in person...closest store that had it was 40 mins away. But they did give me 10% off for my birthday lol. Looking to jump in to this tomorrow.
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,830
About 35% into Rememberance now. I do feel like this game's plot, writing, and characters blows Zero Escape out of the water. This is how you do disjointed event sequences, ZTD.
Though I respect and enjoy the hard sci-fi, the one thing I miss from this type of work is the philosophical angle. I hope some of it peeks out in the second half as more... relevant topics become unveiled.
 

VoidCommunications

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 2, 2020
199
  1. Please explain how you'd communicate the same information within the existing animation and text box constraints.
  2. Why do they say "kaiju"? Why not "strange beast" every time?
  3. Why not localize all the Japanese names? American audiences could probably follow the story better if they were named Jack and Bob and such.
It's okay for media to present words or concepts that are unfamiliar to people. If I'm reading a book and I don't know a word I don't hold it against the author for not defining the word. If it seems important I'll look it up, and if it doesn't seem important I'll just feel what it means based on the context in which it's used.

It's a personal preference that you don't like them, but there are reasons beyond pandering or imagined purity checks.
This kind of reasoning isn't new. It's why you had the weird changes to so many games in 1980s-1990s. Countless examples of this very same mentaility.

honorifics are helpful because they mean a lot to Japanese people. As a simple example of the difficulties of localizing: If you forgot to call someone Senpai because you're flustered. Your fellow classmate may be surprised at your change in tone, so they react accordingly.

English speakers don't encode so much social information in our language like that. Specifically emphasizing the relationships between people using the very words to describe them (I use more honorific language because I like them, or I maintain strict grammar because I dislike them.). Completely excising these kinds of interactions that seem to matter to Japanese people in the context of a Japanese school... I don't get it at all. Especially when your justification is that "it's weeb shit". That just seems like more of the same anti-Asian sentiment Era loves. Like genuinely, can someone give me a real explanation for why honorifics are wrong besides "it's not localizing" and "it's pandering"? Neither of those seem like much of an argument.
 

construct

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Jun 5, 2020
8,222
東京
when does the story start to click? i just finished everyone's prologue and the story almost makes sense but there's enough weird shit going on where i'm completely lost if that makes sense
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,830
when does the story start to click? i just finished everyone's prologue and the story almost makes sense but there's enough weird shit going on where i'm completely lost if that makes sense
Click like click into place or click like be enjoyable? Because the former is not gonna happen for a looong time. It's up to you to come to your own conclusions and deductions as you go.
 

construct

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Jun 5, 2020
8,222
東京
Click like click into place or click like be enjoyable? Because the former is not gonna happen for a looong time. It's up to you to come to your own conclusions and deductions as you go.
to be enjoyable. it's not that i don't like it but i'm not dying to get to the next story beat just yet
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,689
Finished the game. Probably the wildest story I've seen in a game. The way everything unfolds is so expertly crafted. Might end up being one of my favorite games ever
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,537
Canada
This kind of reasoning isn't new. It's why you had the weird changes to so many games in 1980s-1990s. Countless examples of this very same mentaility.

honorifics are helpful because they mean a lot to Japanese people. As a simple example of the difficulties of localizing: If you forgot to call someone Senpai because you're flustered. Your fellow classmate may be surprised at your change in tone, so they react accordingly.

English speakers don't encode so much social information in our language like that. Specifically emphasizing the relationships between people using the very words to describe them (I use more honorific language because I like them, or I maintain strict grammar because I dislike them.). Completely excising these kinds of interactions that seem to matter to Japanese people in the context of a Japanese school... I don't get it at all. Especially when your justification is that "it's weeb shit". That just seems like more of the same anti-Asian sentiment Era loves. Like genuinely, can someone give me a real explanation for why honorifics are wrong besides "it's not localizing" and "it's pandering"? Neither of those seem like much of an argument.

Haha, I'm not sure if you're replying to me or the person I was replying to, but I'm definitely okay with honorifics, and believe their inclusion is particularly necessary in the story they're telling here, due to both the story itself and the way they're telling it.

when does the story start to click? i just finished everyone's prologue and the story almost makes sense but there's enough weird shit going on where i'm completely lost if that makes sense

It started clicking for me when I hit the first twists, but I'm the kind of person who likes twists, or predicting twists.

If you're lost already, it's going to get even stranger. The further stories do a lot to clear things up, but they also throw in a metric boatload more twists, to the point where you're constantly recontextualizing most every scene.
 

Selane

Member
Oct 27, 2017
136
I need help, Yuki scenario (around 28%)
I'm in the same boat. That's the only part in anyone's story that has stumped me so far. I'm just wandering all over the school, but there's nothing new to trigger.
I was stuck at the same part, I completed literally every story/battle section I could until that was all I had left, and still couldn't figure it out. I had to watch a stream to figure out how to get past this part. If you're like me, here's what you need to do:

Open the thought cloud and check Minami's Notebook. There are three chapters and they each give a keyword, but those keywords OVERWRITE one another. You must choose chapter two, then immediately exit the notebook without reading the other chapters. This will add "Tokisaka Shrine" to the keyword list. Ask Aiba about it and that should allow you to advance.

edit: as a result of being stuck on this for so long, I may be slightly overqualified to unlock the next section:
x57Spzn.jpg
 
Last edited:

Zonic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,993
Holy hell, just hit 50% with Miura & some of the casual plot reveal drops in his story line made me go "WHAT!?!" a few times.
 

Hampig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,705
Need some non-spoiler advice. Early in the game, right now I just play the character that showed up in a previous character's story and try to keep track of the storyline.

Should I instead stick to one character at a time and finish all of their branches available before moving to another character?
I did a mix of both approaches and I think either works.
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
First Vanillaware game?

I made this handy guide for Muramasa

Z288xqY.png
Nah I fully expected food to be a focus, played the rest of Vanillaware's titles. It's more of a joke that the they reserved spots in the mystery files for 'locations' and 'food' not to mention spending half of the description of some files letting me know how using the characters in a name is the reason a character is nicknamed as they are to make sure. They really want to let me know the name is super clever hahaha

When the concept of mystery files was reserved as one of the 3 menus I expected more galaxy brain revelations.
 

LiK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,298
Just finished it. OMG, it was amazing. One of my fave games this year. The story was incredible.

The English dub was excellent. One of the best from Atlus.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,667
Nah I fully expected food to be a focus, played the rest of Vanillaware's titles. It's more of a joke that the they reserved spots in the mystery files for 'locations' and 'food' not to mention spending half of the description of some files letting me know how using the characters in a name is the reason a character is nicknamed as they are to make sure. They really want to let me know the name is super clever hahaha

When the concept of mystery files was reserved as one of the 3 menus I expected more galaxy brain revelations.
I mean the mystery files mostly exist to summarize the stuff you've already learned in the game in a concise way, they rarely provide any actual new info and when they do it's typically just flavor stuff that isn't necessary to understand anything
 

VoidCommunications

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 2, 2020
199
Haha, I'm not sure if you're replying to me or the person I was replying to, but I'm definitely okay with honorifics, and believe their inclusion is particularly necessary in the story they're telling here, due to both the story itself and the way they're telling it.



It started clicking for me when I hit the first twists, but I'm the kind of person who likes twists, or predicting twists.

If you're lost already, it's going to get even stranger. The further stories do a lot to clear things up, but they also throw in a metric boatload more twists, to the point where you're constantly recontextualizing most every scene.
Yeah person you're replying to, so sorry about that.
 

Tohsaka

Member
Nov 17, 2017
6,814
I just got the platinum trophy a little while ago, probably my favorite game of the year so far and easily Vanillaware's best.