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Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
The buck stops with her.

And there's this:

These are negatives for me.
No, that's not how it works when you're trusting your staffers to do their jobs without making insane, terrible arguments.

She did not make that argument, her staff did in a case that would not have required her direct oversight.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
I believe the comment was if you work a 40 hour work week, you should live decently in America not the other way around. It's essentially what bernie said in 2016
I think Harris and Sanders are both right, but I also think that it's kind of a weak answer. Yes, anyone who works full time should be able to live decently. But my preferred response to that kind of question would be a pivot to progressive policy that re-evaluates the viability and necessity of the traditional 40-hour work week. No reason to still be defaulting to labour policy that has barely evolved since the end of the Industrial Revolution, especially now that we're entering an era of unprecedented technological advancement and economic and ecological change. Such policies that seek to reduce the hours of a traditional work week, provide basic income, lower the age of retirement, etc may be a hard sell now, but it's never too early to start the messaging battle.

And statements that involve the phrase "dignity of work" are just a complete turn-off.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
No, that's not how it works when you're trusting your staffers to do their jobs without making insane, terrible arguments.

She did not make that argument, her staff did in a case that would not have required her direct oversight.
Do you think she was right to seek punishment for parents of truant kids? Or was that also something we can blame on her, apparently, poorly chosen staff? Has she been responsible for anything?
 

Tracygill

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,853
The Left
The Union Fight That Defined Beto O'Rourke's City Council Days

Years before he was a potential 2020 presidential candidate, Beto O'Rourke was a city councilman in El Paso—and a leading voice in a high-profile battle with unions representing police and firefighters.

At the height of the conflict, O'Rourke publicly mused about disbanding the police union, calling it "out of control" and lamenting his colleagues' unwillingness to stand up to the powerful political force. A year later, he was calling for "better checks on collective bargaining in the public sector."
In an August 3, 2010 meeting, a seemingly exasperated O'Rourke went so far as to ask the city's attorney if there was a way to eliminate the union altogether.

"In my opinion, the basic problem with this whole set up is you've got a very powerful police union that's been able to extract an unsustainable increase in salaries year-over-year and an unsustainable series of additional benefits," he said, following an exchange over the city manager's proposal to create a second police academy. "What are the provisions or opportunities for the voters of El Paso to go back to some other form of representation for the police officers?"

The attorney said there was not, and following the meeting, O'Rourke called the police union "out of control" and questioned "the need and wisdom" of having it in the city at all. The police union, angry at demands from the city council that the police be furloughed, responded by running an ad against O'Rourke and the city council.
O'Rourke went on to praise then-Speaker Paul Ryan for having the "courage" to propose slashing Medicare funding and shifting costs onto beneficiaries and states—though he added he disagreed with the substance of Ryan's proposal.

"[W]hile I don't necessarily agree with his take on Medicare, I think it's impressive that he was willing to take that on, because no one else has had the guts to take that on," he said. "That's what is missing in political leadership in America today, and that is guts. I think the public is starving for it."
But the Texas State Teachers Association was among the first unions to endorse O'Rourke in his race against Cruz, in February 2018. On the questionnaire the group sent out, O'Rourke pledged his support for public education employees' right to collectively bargain.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,354
i mean police unions are bad but it seems like it'd be difficult to bust a police union without damaging good unions
 

Soul Skater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,201
None of these fucking neoliberals are going to save us.
I do think it's a problem that basically everyone, even the super young ones are basically going to have to "evolve" on everything, and their campaigns will essentially be saying "please ignore all the things I said I believed and did in my past because I believe and will do the total opposite now!"

Bernie's problematic but his biggest advantage is that he's *closer* to maitaining a consistent message virtually his entire career than anyone else

I just worry even if others come out in support of a socialisty agenda it won't come off as genuine to far too many people
 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
I do think it's a problem that basically everyone, even the super young ones are basically going to have to "evolve" on everything, and their campaigns will essentially be saying "please ignore all the things I said I believed and did in my past because I believe and will do the total opposite now!"

Bernie's problematic but his biggest advantage is that he's *closer* to maitaining a consistent message virtually his entire career than anyone else

I just worry even if others come out in support of a socialisty agenda it won't come off as genuine to far too many people

While more Democrats say they like socialist economics over those that like capitalist economics (Thanks, Trump!), I think you may be overstating the influence that style of economic thinking will have on the race.

Based on 2018, most people didn't vote for the more socially democratic option over the more conventional Democrat when presented the option.

(Two more years of Trump and his shenanigans may change things leftward, though. Even for Republicans. Trump just hasn't held up to his economic promises to lower class people.)
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Do you think she was right to seek punishment for parents of truant kids? Or was that also something we can blame on her, apparently, poorly chosen staff? Has she been responsible for anything?
No there are many other decisions she can be criticized or asked tp elaborate on that are executive in nature. The trans prisoner issue is another one of those.

This one wasnt one of them though, it was an argument in a routine filing that would have never passed her eyes and that she disavowed immediately upon being asked about.
 

Ty4on

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,953
Norway
I do think it's a problem that basically everyone, even the super young ones are basically going to have to "evolve" on everything, and their campaigns will essentially be saying "please ignore all the things I said I believed and did in my past because I believe and will do the total opposite now!"

Bernie's problematic but his biggest advantage is that he's *closer* to maitaining a consistent message virtually his entire career than anyone else

I just worry even if others come out in support of a socialisty agenda it won't come off as genuine to far too many people
It's kind of odd that the field hasn't evolved much in that respect.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,883

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I'm in shock that someone could write for the Intercept, and both they and their editor both don't understand how despised Police Unions are on the left side of the political axis. (the entire left side, not just lefties.)

Though that's less shocking when you see he's only written 3 pieces for The Intercept, and one of them was a Hillary/DNC hit piece, while the other was an "Attack the DNC Establishment" piece. Which makes me suspect something about the author. https://theintercept.com/staff/walker-bragman/ (edit: and he's RTing Sirota, so suspicions intensify)
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,537
I'm in shock that someone could write for the Intercept, and both they and their editor both don't understand how despised Police Unions are on the left side of the political axis. (the entire left side, not just lefties.)

Though that's less shocking when you see he's only written 3 pieces for The Intercept, and one of them was a Hillary/DNC hit piece, while the other was an "Attack the DNC Establishment" piece. Which makes me suspect something about the author. https://theintercept.com/staff/walker-bragman/ (edit: and he's RTing Sirota, so suspicions intensify)
He wrote this gem

https://www.salon.com/2016/04/29/a_...ser_of_two_evils_is_not_at_all_clear_in_2016/
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
well half of it is good. police unions are definitely not great.

although I have got to say, police unions aren't the only public sector unions. last time I checked there were more unionized employees in the public sector than in the private sector. So it's not as if a broad stroke "let's weaken their bargaining power" is a good thing. In fact, it strikes me as a really awful idea, especially in the midst of all these teacher strikes happening across the country in just the past few years.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
Well, yes, but the police union specifically is a bit too strong and has stood in the way of reforms for a while.
There are a lot of teachers who want raises who would be very hurt when you weaken their bargaining power.

Edit: I really don't see the issue with treating police differently considering the importance of their jobs and how irresponsible they (sometimes) are. The police unions are definitely a major problem, but that wasn't the only thing in that quote.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,883
There are a lot of teachers who want raises who would be very hurt when you weaken their bargaining power.
You're talking to one of them. The teacher's union is generally fine, like I said it's the police one that is generally the issue.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
Hey maybe the people using that fight to attack Beto should read up on the context of the time.

Do you think police unions at the time should have been receiving automatic 8% pay increases during the height of the 2008 financial downturn?
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
Hey maybe the people using that fight to attack Beto should read up on the context of the time.

Do you think police unions at the time should have been receiving automatic 8% pay increases during the height of the 2008 financial downturn?
Why not? Is this not exactly when you want the government to give people raises?
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Why not? Is this not exactly when you want the government to give people raises?
The Military are currently exempted from pay furloughs during government shutdowns. This is a problem because the Military leans heavily conservative and they're able to spare a GOP consituent group from the negative side effects of what they're doing while inflicting pain on more-liberal leaning groups.

Like, Police Unions vote republican and support Republican candidates. They are fundamentally uninterested in police reform and are a constant roadblock to it. This isn't some unknown fact to anyone familiar with US labor politics, so to write the backfiring hit piece, you need to be someone completely unfamiliar with US labor activism trying to pretend you're on their side. And lo and behold, the author spent 2016 attacking Hillary and the DNC and writing "This is why liberals should support Trump" articles.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
So which other government workers are getting laid off to pay the entire union their bonus?
well that's true. I definitely wasn't really thinking of the consequences on the budget. sloppy thinking on my part

Also Kirblar I've lived in NY for years and I am definitely not a fan of the police union because of the type of behavior they encourage from their members and the politics they support.
 

EnronERA

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,058
So I guess im voting in the democratic primary this time.

I do know that Tulsi Gabbard will not be getting my vote
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,147
I do think it's a problem that basically everyone, even the super young ones are basically going to have to "evolve" on everything, and their campaigns will essentially be saying "please ignore all the things I said I believed and did in my past because I believe and will do the total opposite now!"

Bernie's problematic but his biggest advantage is that he's *closer* to maitaining a consistent message virtually his entire career than anyone else

I just worry even if others come out in support of a socialisty agenda it won't come off as genuine to far too many people
Isn't Warren's record extremely strong here? She's actually gotten more done than Bernie as well
 

Soul Skater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,201
Isn't Warren's record extremely strong here? She's actually gotten more done than Bernie as well
Warren is who Bernie thinks he is. She's the real deal with getting progressive shit done.
She was actually a Republican till like 1996. I actually don't know what or if there is anything out there on her in that era; so she doesn't really have the 1972 tapes talking about revolutionizing healthcare at some library or something, (as far as I know ).. I actually think those sorts of things, while they might have been silly did a good job of convincing a lot of people that Bernie was legit and that he believed in what he said he did, because "hey look how long he's been saying it".. and I don't think the "ignore basically everything I said prior to 2007" goes over well with young voters either...

but yeah since then she's been good specifically policy wise and Warrens probably the closest to pushing far left socialisty type stuff outside of sanders despite the party switch
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
She was actually a Republican till like 1996. I actually don't know what or if there is anything out there on her in that era; so she doesn't really have the 1972 tapes talking about revolutionizing healthcare at some library or something, (as far as I know ).. I actually think those sorts of things, while they might have been silly did a good job of convincing a lot of people that Bernie was legit and that he believed in what he said he did, because "hey look how long he's been saying it".. and I don't think the "ignore basically everything I said prior to 2007" goes over well with young voters either...

but yeah since then she's been good specifically policy wise and Warrens probably the closest to pushing far left socialisty type stuff outside of sanders despite the party switch
The parties were still much more ideologically mixed until Clinton's election and the ensuing flight of the Dixiecrats to the GOP triggering the hardening of the Southern Strategy.
 

BlackLagoon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,776
She was actually a Republican till like 1996. I actually don't know what or if there is anything out there on her in that era
As I recall, she's said used to be a free market believer, but then became increasingly convinced the market didn't work as advertised and that the kind of financial regulation and policy she now advocates was necessary. I suppose it was always economics for her.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
The parties were still much more ideologically mixed until Clinton's election and the ensuing flight of the Dixiecrats to the GOP triggering the hardening of the Southern Strategy.
right but like all her siblings are still like republicans to this day. which makes me think that she probably was ideologically conservative.

edit: 2/3 of her brothers are republicans
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
right but like all her siblings are still like republicans to this day. which makes me think that she probably was ideologically conservative.

edit: 2/3 of her brothers are republicans
The biggest predictor of your party as a young person is your parents. Look at who Hillary campaigned for in HS. That doesnt necessarily translate to someones personal politics especially in MA (look at how liberal MA R Govs are even today) in an era when the parties were still ideologically mixed.
 
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