2023 was a terrible year to look for a publisher... and 2024 is worse. Noclips learning experience as a game dev looking for a pub

[nsilvias]

noclip started making a game 2 years ago and this video is a bit of an educational video going thru their experience looking for a publisher. they mention how publisher expect a much higher cut in recent years as high as 50/50 when it used to be 70/30 a few years ago. they go thru what publishers look for when considering giving you moneys and all that jazz. mentioned lots of people were desperate for deals at dice


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRVsrVZrfyg

 

[chrominance]

Weird that this studio stole their name from a highly successful video produc--oh wait it's the same people? Didn't see that one coming! (No seriously, I guess I should read the Patreon updates more often, had no idea noclip was making a game!)

I'm sort of terrified to watch this video even though I'm not trying to get a game published. It just feels like every industry is a terrible place to break into these days.

 

[blueredandgold]

Sounds like an interesting albiet tough watch so will check it out.

Suddenly reminded of the way IGN took it upon itself to hype up a title similar to this during the Wii days and really (for the time) took a different tack with its reporting. Previews for potential suitor publishers rather than its Wii demographic audience.

It was really educational and shone a light on the subject for those who didn't know - and didn't particularly care - how hard it is to get published.

 

[Shard Shinjuku]

Yea, this is the underdiscussed hardship going on in the industry right now.

 

[Kickfister]

Having played Stunt Derby myself, it's worth mentioning that this game is deceptively amazing. I've never played a game that did asynchronous racing really. The team mode is something special. You can have a team mate in the lead, and then you can go into a full on disruption play style. You can start to ignore the track and skip ahead just to ram cars gaining on your team (or cars that are in the lead). If you're racing alongside your friend in the lead, they can take a shortcut to the next flag while you grab the one in the rear just before they hit the next checkpoint. It's an incredible game and far more flexible than just about any racing game, at least in the team mode, and it's gonna be hard for them to show off how cool it is.

But it being a weird new thing that happens to be incredible but has a hard time showing it makes it all the more interesting from a journalistic perspective. It's truly rough out there for indies, especially if they're trying to innovate in hard to convey ways.

 

[SpiralEngine]

Another interesting video from Noclip. I've been eagerly anticipating this video ever since Danny first announced it, so it's nice to see it finally come out.

I wish the video were longer, but on the other hand, it makes sense that this is all they can say on the topic without naming names or anything. I would've loved to have heard any additional insight from the pre-widespread digital distribution days, since I was kind of blown away to learn that devs would sometimes only get 20-30% of the money from games sold at that time, but I guess that's a story for another time. It makes me wonder how something like Alien Hominid happened on GameCube, PS2, and Xbox. Also, it must've been incredibly frustrating to have been strung along by those publishers who acted like they were ready to sign, only to be turned down after they stopped actively communicating with Danny. At least Devolver had the decency to turn them down after maintaining consistent communication. But yeah, it just sucks that it seems like, unless something good comes up at GDC, the only real option to get lots of capital to finish up the game is Kickstarter, since otherwise it just seems like credible publishers just aren't biting.

I'm not a Noclip patron, so I haven't gotten a chance to play the game, but I did wishlist Stunt Derby when Danny put out the initial call to action, even though I don't tend to do that very often, so I wish them the best. Actually, I see that they have a demo available on Steam, so I'll check that out now.

I wish more people were following along with this effort. I think Noclip's chronicling an interesting aspect of game development that doesn't get covered too often, and I think maybe people would have more empathy for game developers and their struggles if they were following along, but I'm a guy who likes to know how the sausage is made in general, so I dunno.

Suddenly reminded of the way IGN took it upon itself to hype up a title similar to this during the Wii days and really (for the time) took a different tack with its reporting. Previews for potential suitor publishers rather than its Wii demographic audience.

It was really educational and shone a light on the subject for those who didn't know - and didn't particularly care - how hard it is to get published.

Click to shrink...

What game are you referring to? I don't think I've heard of this before.

 

[thediamondage]

Just wondering but for smaller studios... why do you need a publisher? Start small on steam, which I assume doesn't have any real big hurdles to get up on. If your game sells well someone will come find you if you want to put it out on switch, consoles, mobile, etc.

If your game doesn't sell well... then, well...

maybe I'm just dumb and don't get it. Yeah, I am absolutely sure its much harder now to get a publisher to market a game, put out ads, help you get console dev kits and go through console certification, work out physical distribution of media, sell to retailers, customer service, and the million other things big games have to deal with but if its just a small game that you can release on steam first, do you need one? Genuine question, maybe there is something important I am missing.

 

[Roubjon]

Just wondering but for smaller studios... why do you need a publisher? Start small on steam, which I assume doesn't have any real big hurdles to get up on. If your game sells well someone will come find you if you want to put it out on switch, consoles, mobile, etc.

If your game doesn't sell well... then, well...

maybe I'm just dumb and don't get it. Yeah, I am absolutely sure its much harder now to get a publisher to market a game, put out ads, help you get console dev kits and go through console certification, work out physical distribution of media, sell to retailers, customer service, and the million other things big games have to deal with but if its just a small game that you can release on steam first, do you need one? Genuine question, maybe there is something important I am missing.

Click to shrink...

Getting the general public to find your game is an insanely difficult task. A publisher has avenues to get your foot in the door so word of mouth can actually spread.

And also, publisher will give your team money so you can work on the game full time and finish it within a reasonable timeline. If you are working on the project on the side with whatever energy you have left after a day of work and taking care of yourself and your family, a 1 year project will turn into a 4 year one.

 

[RocketDarkness]

Just wondering but for smaller studios... why do you need a publisher? Start small on steam, which I assume doesn't have any real big hurdles to get up on. If your game sells well someone will come find you if you want to put it out on switch, consoles, mobile, etc.

If your game doesn't sell well... then, well...

maybe I'm just dumb and don't get it. Yeah, I am absolutely sure its much harder now to get a publisher to market a game, put out ads, help you get console dev kits and go through console certification, work out physical distribution of media, sell to retailers, customer service, and the million other things big games have to deal with but if its just a small game that you can release on steam first, do you need one? Genuine question, maybe there is something important I am missing.

Click to shrink...

Publishers often fund the development so you can work on the game without having to pony up the millions of dollars it'd cost to support all the team members you'd need to complete your game.

 

[Strings]

Just wondering but for smaller studios... why do you need a publisher? Start small on steam, which I assume doesn't have any real big hurdles to get up on. If your game sells well someone will come find you if you want to put it out on switch, consoles, mobile, etc.

If your game doesn't sell well... then, well...

maybe I'm just dumb and don't get it. Yeah, I am absolutely sure its much harder now to get a publisher to market a game, put out ads, help you get console dev kits and go through console certification, work out physical distribution of media, sell to retailers, customer service, and the million other things big games have to deal with but if its just a small game that you can release on steam first, do you need one? Genuine question, maybe there is something important I am missing.

Click to shrink...

Publishers pay for development.

 

[firehawk12]

Value of having a publisher aside, you'd think an ex? gaming journalist would at the very least have the influencer connections to do promotion if nothing else, and have a built in audience for early access preorders.

Just because it came to mind with Greg Kasavin, it looks like all of Supergiant's games were self-published.

 

[Jamesac68]

From yesterday's Twitter-


View: https://x.com/DaveOshry/status/1767326650486939817?s=20

 

[Maple-Tech]

Value of having a publisher aside, you'd think an ex? gaming journalist would at the very least have the influencer connections to do promotion if nothing else, and have a built in audience for early access preorders.

Just because it came to mind with Greg Kasavin, it looks like all of Supergiant's games were self-published.

Click to shrink...

Bastion was published by WB

 

[barjed]

Just wondering but for smaller studios... why do you need a publisher? Start small on steam, which I assume doesn't have any real big hurdles to get up on. If your game sells well someone will come find you if you want to put it out on switch, consoles, mobile, etc.

If your game doesn't sell well... then, well...

maybe I'm just dumb and don't get it. Yeah, I am absolutely sure its much harder now to get a publisher to market a game, put out ads, help you get console dev kits and go through console certification, work out physical distribution of media, sell to retailers, customer service, and the million other things big games have to deal with but if its just a small game that you can release on steam first, do you need one? Genuine question, maybe there is something important I am missing.

Click to shrink...

Sorry but this is a pretty naive outlook. Yes, you can self publish and it can work but it is very rare. The market on Steam is oversaturated, extremely competitive and you have a very narrow window of opportunity at launch to make any sort of impression. One slip and your game is fucked, basically forever.

In a perfect world a publisher provides options that you simply do not have on your own. People here on Era often under-appreciate how expensive and challenging media outreach is nowadays. You need to get your game in front of reviewers and in front of the content creators. One is extremely difficult and the other prohibitively expensive.

Even if you are launching just on Steam you often need localization and QA, both cost a shit ton of money. CN market is very attractive to devs nowadays and guess what, reaching that is even more challenging.

Then there are the minutiae. The stream you have to keep running 24/7 on your product page, engaging on socials, creating a trailer that doesn't look like shit, managing key pools and God help you if you are a masochist and decided to run a crowdfunding campaign for you game too.

All of this is solved by money, which the pub is supposed to bring. What happens in reality is a different matter but that's a topic for another reply.

Finally, self-published games aren't created equal. Established devs or those with investors behind them (there's more of them than you might think) have it easier than Bob and Tom launching their debut game on a shoestring budget. Can you be successful on Steam on your own, just winging it? Sure but it is SIGNIFICANTLY more likely your game will bomb and join the graveyard of hundreds of underperforming games, many quality ones.

 

[firehawk12]

Bastion was published by WB

Click to shrink...

Ah yeah, I didn't check Bastion.
Not sure if Gone Home counts since it was self-pubbed on PC, but not on console, but that's another journalist to game dev example that I can think of.

But I dunno, I still think being Danny O'Dwyer and NoClip provides some advantages that would allow forgoing a publisher.

 

[Maple-Tech]

Ah yeah, I didn't check Bastion.
Not sure if Gone Home counts since it was self-pubbed on PC, but not on console, but that's another journalist to game dev example that I can think of.

But I dunno, I still think being Danny O'Dwyer and NoClip provides some advantages that would allow forgoing a publisher.

Click to shrink...

i think you might be right, but that's not really the point of the video. The point was to show how difficult it is for developers who rely on publishers for funding to get one, because most don't have the advantages that Danny does where he already has an audience and a solid source of income from another job.

 

[firehawk12]

i think you might be right, but that's not really the point of the video. The point was to show how difficult it is for developers who rely on publishers for funding to get one, because most don't have the advantages that Danny does where he already has an audience and a solid source of income from another job.

Click to shrink...

Ah yeah, that I can agree with. The complete democratization and also abdication of responsibility by Valve of Steam has made it almost impossible for anyone trying to create their first game as a 'nobody'.

Actually it feels like a repeat of the peak of iOS gaming where anyone with a dev account could publish on the app store, except that space just seemingly collapsed.

 

[blueredandgold]

What game are you referring to? I don't think I've heard of this before.

Click to shrink...

I hesitated to name the game itself, on purpose.

Didn't want to be cute or anything but it's more my foggy memory of the events as they took place that give me pause! And I didn't want to take things off the rails.

It's too difficult (and frustratingly so) to actually show a proper sequence of how things happened here, historically. A video essay is now the norm, but even they are themselves inherently a little bit biased as they are an interpretation by someone of events like this.

It's all too easy to say the internet never forgets but I can't link to simple web pages, the site of IGN itself has of course changed considerably so it looks nothing like it did at the time, when the news about the game was consistent.

In any case, the game was The Conduit, the dev was High Voltage Software, and the (eventual) pub was SEGA!

 

[SpiralEngine]

I hesitated to name the game itself, on purpose.

Didn't want to be cute or anything but it's more my foggy memory of the events as they took place that give me pause! And I didn't want to take things off the rails.

It's too difficult (and frustratingly so) to actually show a proper sequence of how things happened here, historically. A video essay is now the norm, but even they are themselves inherently a little bit biased as they are an interpretation by someone of events like this.

It's all too easy to say the internet never forgets but I can't link to simple web pages, the site of IGN itself has of course changed considerably so it looks nothing like it did at the time, when the news about the game was consistent.

In any case, the game was The Conduit, the dev was High Voltage Software, and the (eventual) pub was SEGA!

Click to shrink...

Oh, ok. I don't know too much about The Conduit, and I didn't read IGN at the time, so it figures I didn't know about this. Thank you for letting me know though, I'll look into it on my own some other time.

 

[Gavalanche]

Just wondering but for smaller studios... why do you need a publisher? Start small on steam, which I assume doesn't have any real big hurdles to get up on. If your game sells well someone will come find you if you want to put it out on switch, consoles, mobile, etc.

If your game doesn't sell well... then, well...

maybe I'm just dumb and don't get it. Yeah, I am absolutely sure its much harder now to get a publisher to market a game, put out ads, help you get console dev kits and go through console certification, work out physical distribution of media, sell to retailers, customer service, and the million other things big games have to deal with but if its just a small game that you can release on steam first, do you need one? Genuine question, maybe there is something important I am missing.

Click to shrink...

Mostly development funding, but they also help out with marketing as well.

The indies who self publish and take eight+ years to release a game do so because they still need to do a job to support themselves, so working on that game is usually done in their spare time. Getting a publishing deal allows them to get some funding to work on it full time and potentially hire other people.

 

[PachaelD]

Publishers often fund the development so you can work on the game without having to pony up the millions of dollars it'd cost to support all the team members you'd need to complete your game.

Click to shrink...

That's part of it yeah, but that initial slide deck of needing $200k (presumably US$) as a minimum to complete the game with targets for 100P multiplayer and console versions? Might have gotten away with this in the kickstarter years or even the covid times when folks were throwing money at projects, but these days yeah... everyone's looking for the 'return on investment' and these days doing all that they want to do on their presentation deck would cost a lot more and probably deliver a lot less.

Arguably part of the issue is that previously 'open' publishers who might have funded something like this in the past aren't as much anymore (thinking of equal or smaller than Team17, Devolver sized - they literally shout out Devolver too and how straightforward they were).

Listening to them, self-publishing using their clout in videos/marketing is the best outcome to release, but they should temper thoughts on return on investment - their direction/options at the end are probably the most realistic (prepare for early access, extra funding preferred but if not maybe kickstarter - and as mentioned the other option is just literally for the team to throw more of their personal funds into the project)

 

[take_marsh]

From yesterday's Twitter-


View: https://x.com/DaveOshry/status/1767326650486939817?s=20

Click to shrink...

That publisher clearly didn't believe in the game or the development team.

 

[dphrygian]

As an indie gamedev, I am so glad Noclip is showing this side of the business. Developers rarely share this kind of thing publicly, either because it's a bad look to talk about private negotiations, or they can't talk about it due to NDAs, or they don't have enough of a platform to get the information out, or they simply don't have the time.

 

[PJTierney]

The speed dating analogy fits rather well.

 

[jarosh]

Yep, and 2024 is indeed worse. There's no money out there. Nothing. So many friends have had to close their studios, even ones with long, established track records. It's absolutely heartbreaking the amazing games that are out there that are not receiving any funding, which 2-3 years ago would have had money thrown at them, no questions asked. In case you missed it this was my very detailed account of what 2023 was like for small studios.

 

[Xion_Stellar]

Yep, and 2024 is indeed worse. There's no money out there. Nothing. So many friends have had to close their studios, even ones with long, established track records. It's absolutely heartbreaking the amazing games that are out there that are not receiving any funding, which 2-3 years ago would have had money thrown at them, no questions asked. In case you missed it this was my very detailed account of what 2023 was like for small studios.

Click to shrink...

I wasn't around here during that month so I missed this thread.

I'll give it a read during lunchtime at work

 

[Jamesac68]

That publisher clearly didn't believe in the game or the development team.

Click to shrink...

That is the absolute kindest possible way to read that, but maybe giving just a little too much credit to the publisher. Even if they don't think the game is worth it, "We keep full IP rights" is completely unacceptable.

 

[Dr PeterVenkman]

Ah yeah, I didn't check Bastion.
Not sure if Gone Home counts since it was self-pubbed on PC, but not on console, but that's another journalist to game dev example that I can think of.

But I dunno, I still think being Danny O'Dwyer and NoClip provides some advantages that would allow forgoing a publisher.

Click to shrink...

I would imagine these days private investment from atypical sources (ie. Not a games publisher) could be more of an option. Ultimately, the publishers role is getting smaller as time goes on. There aren't discs to print and retailers to schmooze. NoClip has a leg up on most because they are already a known entity. So really it's about getting funding more than anything, right?

 

[elenarie]

Some random questions on why a publisher may be needed. A publisher is not needed to ship games nowadays, but they can certainly help you get through a lot of unknown work, especially if you have not shipped games before.

Just random thoughts, a publisher can offer these services that you would not have to do yourself:
* Localisation services - to translate / record localised voiceovers in different languages.
* Certification and compliance - testing and guidance through cert processes on various platforms and regulatory bodies (GDPR in Europe, for example, if you are gathering telemetry data)
* Marketing, brand, social media management and engagement - anything from community management, to organising press and review events, to handling social media accounts, to doing local or online marketing, market research
* Sales related services - distribution contracts for physical copies, localised materials and so on
* General testing and QA services - for the game clients, for backends and whatever else your game may have
* Publishing services - handling all of the complicated publishing processes, especially on consoles
* UXR services - user studies, early playtests, feedback sessions

And many other things.

 

[firehawk12]

I would imagine these days private investment from atypical sources (ie. Not a games publisher) could be more of an option. Ultimately, the publishers role is getting smaller as time goes on. There aren't discs to print and retailers to schmooze. NoClip has a leg up on most because they are already a known entity. So really it's about getting funding more than anything, right?

Click to shrink...

Remember fig. lol
But I guess it depends on what you need the runway for. I assume it's also probably easier to get investment from a publisher than it is from a bank or a VC, particularly if you're like an former AAA-dev with existing relationships but you're starting off on your own.

I don't know if there are many "one person" studios anymore in the vein of like Stardew or Undertale, but it feels like a different path.

Some random questions on why a publisher may be needed. A publisher is not needed to ship games nowadays, but they can certainly help you get through a lot of unknown work, especially if you have not shipped games before.

Just random thoughts, a publisher can offer these services that you would not have to do yourself:
* Localisation services - to translate / record localised voiceovers in different languages.
* Certification and compliance - testing and guidance through cert processes on various platforms and regulatory bodies (GDPR in Europe, for example, if you are gathering telemetry data)
* Marketing, brand, social media management and engagement - anything from community management, to organising press and review events, to handling social media accounts, to doing local or online marketing, market research
* Sales related services - distribution contracts for physical copies, localised materials and so on
* General testing and QA services - for the game clients, for backends and whatever else your game may have
* Publishing services - handling all of the complicated publishing processes, especially on consoles
* UXR services - user studies, early playtests, feedback sessions

And many other things.

Click to shrink...

That's true, the question is if they're asking for like 70/30 splits these days, is it worth giving up 70% for those services? I think it makes sense for mid-sized studios, but I wonder if that's putting cart before the horse if you're a small dev.

 

[elenarie]

That's true, the question is if they're asking for like 70/30 splits these days, is it worth giving up 70% for those services? I think it makes sense for mid-sized studios, but I wonder if that's putting cart before the horse if you're a small dev.

Click to shrink...

It depends. Often times publishing deals also come with funding. That funding comes with risk. Whoever is providing the money kind of has a position of power. Some deals may favour one party over another, and it's up to each individual party to determine whether that's valuable to them, or seek out other deals.

 

[firehawk12]

It depends. Often times publishing deals also come with funding. That funding comes with risk. Whoever is providing the money kind of has a position of power. Some deals may favour one party over another, and it's up to each individual party to determine whether that's valuable to them, or seek out other deals.

Click to shrink...

If publishers are asking for 80/20 splits and ownership of the IP as that earlier tweet mentioned, then yeah, maybe it's too much nowadays. lol

 

[elenarie]

If publishers are asking for 80/20 splits and ownership of the IP as that earlier tweet mentioned, then yeah, maybe it's too much nowadays. lol

Click to shrink...

Yea I'm not saying it's a good deal, haha.