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4-15% of senior employees at Apple, Microsoft, and SpaceX have left after return to office mandates

Wrexis

Wrexis

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Nov 4, 2017
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Original article paywalled, some snippets here:

it.slashdot.org

Ordered Back To the Office, Top Tech Talent Left Instead, Study Finds - Slashdot

An anonymous reader quotes a report from the Washington Post: Return-to-office mandates at some of the most powerful tech companies -- Apple, Microsoft and SpaceX -- were followed by a spike in departures among the most senior, tough-to-replace talent, according to a case study published last...
it.slashdot.org

Return-to-office mandates at some of the most powerful tech companies -- Apple, Microsoft and SpaceX -- were followed by a spike in departures among the most senior, tough-to-replace talent, according to a case study published last week by researchers at the University of Chicago and the University of Michigan. Researchers drew on resume data from People Data Labs to understand the impact that forced returns to offices had on employee tenure and the movement of workers between companies. What they found was a strong correlation between the departures of senior-level employees and the implementation of a mandate, suggesting that these policies "had a negative effect on the tenure and seniority of their respective workforce." High-ranking employees stayed several months less than they might have without the mandate, the research suggests -- and in many cases, they went to work for direct competitors.
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At Microsoft, the share of senior employees as a portion of the company's overall workforce declined more than five percentage points after the return-to-office mandate took effect, the researchers found. At Apple, the decline was four percentage points, while at SpaceX -- the only company of the three to require workers to be fully in-person -- the share of senior employees dropped 15 percentage points. "We find experienced employees impacted by these policies at major tech companies seek work elsewhere, taking some of the most valuable human capital investments and tools of productivity with them," said Austin Wright, an assistant professor of public policy at the University of Chicago and one of the study's authors. "Business leaders should weigh carefully employee preferences and market opportunities when deciding when, or if, they mandate a return to office."
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Who could have seen this coming?

everyone-gary-oldman.gif

Though I can't help but thinking in particular with SpaceX they're counting it as 15% layoffs without having to pay severance.
 
Bigkrev

Bigkrev

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Oct 25, 2017
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It's almost as if they figured out a way to do a bunch of layoffs of people making a decent chunk of change without having to pay severance or bad publicity?
 
ShutterMunster

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,559
These companies certainly expected this drop off. I wish the numbers were larger, so they'd scare more companies off of trying this. My employer is beginning to turn the screw :(
 
Qikz

Qikz

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Oct 25, 2017
12,649
Where are all these people going though? When you're senior in a specific thing it can be hard to find another job that will pay well enough or give you what you want.
 
Lunchbox-

Lunchbox-

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Nov 2, 2017
12,136
bEast Coast
anyone who was retirement eligible, retired after covid at my work. i would too if could.

cause fuck this post 2019 world, this post apocalypse is depressing enough without work.
 
bananas

bananas

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Oct 25, 2017
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The companies wanted this. It gets them off the hook from firing them, and allows them to put in someone in the position for less pay
 
kyle mechlachlan

kyle mechlachlan

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Oct 27, 2017
12,410
it's been said and will be said more - this is fine for these companies. this is a quiet layoff and now they can throw the additional workload on existing people and make even more money with less employee cost.
 
thewienke

thewienke

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Oct 25, 2017
16,204
Plus: Free layoffs

Minus: Your top talent are the ones that can more easily dictate their value in the labor market and therefore are more likely to leave if they're unhappy
 
Johnny Blaze

Johnny Blaze

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,266
DE
Pay McKinsey so they tell you RTO is the way to go now pay them again so they tell you don't make RTO to retain senior talent.

Or use common sense you morons.
 
Twister

Twister

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Feb 11, 2019
5,142
I refuse to do any more than 2 days in the office a week. There are plenty of jobs out there
 
Lump

Lump

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Oct 25, 2017
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Qikz said:
Where are all these people going though? When you're senior in a specific thing it can be hard to find another job that will pay well enough or give you what you want.
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It's true MAANG are the tech jobs that pay the most, but there are a shitload of boring tech companies out there (cloud services, payroll services, b2b services) that will fall over themselves to give still very decently paying salaries to former MAANG employees and be completely fine with all but a few specific senior roles being remote. If I were in that position, I'd personally rather earn 200k in TC all remote in a stable boring company than 400k in TC for an exciting layoff-prone tech giant and be forced to commute every day. Factor in cost of living where those tech giants reside versus a lot more choices being remote and the difference in salary feels a lot smaller.
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,277
I don't know if I'd consider a 50% pay cut like above poster - I have a baby and a mortgage and a retirement strategy but I'm considering 60k pay cut.

These folks are senior directors and so forth that make 800K so they are gonna be fine. My senior director lives on a hill top next to Apple's Cupertino office.
 
ExoExplorer

ExoExplorer

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Jan 3, 2019
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These works who have the flexibility to go for fully remote positions can definitely afford a pay cut and live somewhere cheaper than Silicon Valley. I know I would lol
 
JustTeaThankYou

JustTeaThankYou

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Aug 31, 2019
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Does anyone know the pre-covid attrition rate for these companies? I don't have access to the article so I don't know if it goes into it.
 
Kill3r7

Kill3r7

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Oct 25, 2017
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Alternatively they were banking on this to reduce their workforce without having to do layoffs.
 
Brando

Brando

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Oct 25, 2017
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RTO is nothing more than soft layoffs. The intended results are in line with companies expectations.
 
PumpkinPieAddict

PumpkinPieAddict

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Oct 28, 2017
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As many others have said, the companies are happy about this. Make your employees quit so you don't have to pay them, don't fill the role and don't move pay for people picking up the work. It's an accounting trick to appease the line god.

If the economy were better these companies would have a really difficult time retaining overworked employees ontop of senior employees.
 
Scarecrow

Scarecrow

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,612
4-15% doesn't sound that much, tbh. If it were closer to 25-30% for one company, that would be a bit more damning.
 
Lumination

Lumination

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Oct 26, 2017
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As an engineer who can appreciate the disruption that comes from a senior eng leaving, 4% isn't that big of a price to pay to push through the initiatives you want. I doubt this deterred anyone.
 
spyder_ur

spyder_ur

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Oct 25, 2017
11,933
I mean this is lower than most general workplace turnover rates so I have no idea how to read this.

My first reaction was that I would expect this percentage to turn over basically regardless of other factors.
 
Dyle

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,303
Just the cost of doing business. That would have been built into the cost of the policy. People at that level are so liable to being poached anyway
 
Kiyamet

Kiyamet

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Apr 21, 2024
497
return to office is such a dumb movement

all it does is protect managers

it fucks up literally everything else
 
Mesoian

Mesoian

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Oct 28, 2017
27,080
Yup. Seeing it all over the finance world. Senior management struggling to fill leadership roles after thought Leaders took a package once wfh ended. 3 day hybrid is here to stay where I am because the company can't afford to bleed anymore mind share.
 
Mesoian

Mesoian

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Oct 28, 2017
27,080
Kiyamet said:
return to office is such a dumb movement

all it does is protect managers

it fucks up literally everything else
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It doesn't even do that. Middle/top managers catching strays as they're forced to take on more responsibility as thought Leaders leave. I'm seeing managers be given entire teams that have people across the world in it. Even if rtw was mandated, they'd still be on zoom for 12 hours a day.
 

SFenton

Member
Nov 10, 2017
643
Can't read the article because paywall, but the snippet fails to mention... Microsoft never had a return to office mandate. It is the only large tech company I know of that still allows, with no restriction, permanent remote work.

Source: am permanently working remote for Microsoft.

The senior talent leaving Microsoft, if I had to guess, would be for more compensation elsewhere, or related to the fact that Microsoft didn't give raises last year.
 
beebop

beebop

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May 30, 2023
1,871
This would have been a good learning moment had big tech not been quite happy to be culling workforce the last year or two.
 

SFenton

Member
Nov 10, 2017
643
fragamemnon said:
Also senior people checking out given 33% YoY increase in MSFT stock.
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Perhaps, but I'd also wager the people able to check out at that point were late in career anyways. Annual stock payouts to MSFT employees are much smaller than at Google/Meta/Amazon, so it takes much longer to build up that stock where checking out is really an option.
 
Gwarm

Gwarm

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Nov 13, 2017
2,206
Lunchbox- said:
anyone who was retirement eligible, retired after covid at my work. i would too if could.

cause fuck this post 2019 world, this post apocalypse is depressing enough without work.
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My place was offering early retirement options to more senior staff around that time. If I were but 20 years older.
 
NotVeryFriendly

NotVeryFriendly

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Oct 27, 2017
3,699
SFenton said:
Can't read the article because paywall, but the snippet fails to mention... Microsoft never had a return to office mandate. It is the only large tech company I know of that still allows, with no restriction, permanent remote work.

Source: am permanently working remote for Microsoft.

The senior talent leaving Microsoft, if I had to guess, would be for more compensation elsewhere, or related to the fact that Microsoft didn't give raises last year.
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The paper which the article is reporting on is available here and details how the authors came to this conclusion, and after skimming the paper I'm quite dubious about the methods which were used (and the factors considered) for assessing the impact of the RTO mandate and alleged correlations to employee tenure.
 
808s & Villainy

808s & Villainy

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Oct 27, 2017
43,095
bananas said:
The companies wanted this. It gets them off the hook from firing them, and allows them to put in someone in the position for less pay
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Yeah, someone with far less institutional knowledge than the people who left. Not to mention the FTC has also shot down non-competes so all they're doing is screwing themselves over
 

Native_Vel

Member
Jun 5, 2022
1,268
Which was the goal. I love remote work but you will see me at the office 5 days a week to secure that severance if that's what it comes to. I assume these individuals have a deep enough network that they could just go somewhere else that is attracting talent with remote work.
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,277
SFenton said:
Can't read the article because paywall, but the snippet fails to mention... Microsoft never had a return to office mandate. It is the only large tech company I know of that still allows, with no restriction, permanent remote work.

Source: am permanently working remote for Microsoft.

The senior talent leaving Microsoft, if I had to guess, would be for more compensation elsewhere, or related to the fact that Microsoft didn't give raises last year.
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Doesn't MS provide a 15% match on 401K? I think that's unmatched outside of boutique PE firms.
 
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