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PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
They don't understand who he is or what he is. Hatton is a football thug in a suit.

I don't disagree with the decision to kick him out of the party, he was just using it for his own agenda, a 30 year ban is pretty effective and unless he's still behaving the same way etc, I think it's fine to let him join up as an ordinary member.

I get it, I'm probably being too forgiving, complacent or something, I hope he isn't rejoining just to be a dickhead again.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
I don't disagree with the decision to kick him out of the party, he was just using it for his own agenda, a 30 year ban is pretty effective and unless he's still behaving the same way etc, I think it's fine to let him join up as an ordinary member.

I get it, I'm probably being to forgiving, complacent or something, I hope he isn't rejoining just to be a dickhead again.

He's been on the BBC twice making a dickhead of himself this morning.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
As someone married to a wife that he and his ilk absolutely hate I find that statement a bit off to be honest.

So if in 20 years time Tommy Robinson has kept his head down and stays out of the limelight and says "hey I'm reformed" would you be happy with him joining the Labour party and being welcomed in?
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,261
Because I got that detail mixed up with Mosley. Powell flirted with labour but never became an MP

Yeah but you really doubled down on it

You do know that Powell was a labour MP and that the hard left campaigned with him against common market membership in 75, yes?

It's actually on video on YouTube. The hard lefts position on Europe comes from Powell. Do some reading.

Weird jump from Mosley. In 1975 he wasn't even living in the UK. He was barely alive.

Do some reading?
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
I'm not defending that policy. But it isn't racist in itself. Its xenophobic, bigoted and completely unacceptable IMO. However, it wasn't a "racist policy". It wasn't targeted at "Jews or Asians or Black people" it was simply a plan to create a "hostile environment" to try and deter illegal immigrants from any race or ethnicity from entering the country.

It is completely wrong. And of course some of the interpretations and implementations were racist. But the policy itself as abhorrent as it is, is not racist.

It is also not a policy that is exclusive to this country.

Yeah, it's just a total accident as to which groups the policy actually impacted. It's amazing how far some people will go to link things to one kind of bigotry, e.g. Omar's comments, but will utterly deny the basic tactics used by the right because they literally are unable to put "target black and brown people" in writing.

Anyway, I didn't want a debate with you. I just wanted bring up the post you made to remind people of your views on the matter.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
Yeah but you really doubled down on it



Weird jump from Mosley. In 1975 he wasn't even living in the UK. He was barely alive.

Do some reading?

The point of Powell was that the left in 75 used his arguments against the EU, joined his campaign against the common market (though some didn't), and that corbyn's position on lexit is identical to the arguments put forward by Powell in 75. Did you watch the video of Powell and the Labour grandees?
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
So if in 20 years time Tommy Robinson has kept his head down and stays out of the limelight and says "hey I'm reformed" would you be happy with him joining the Labour party and being welcomed in?

If its real, then probably but I can see other people having the right not to be, I've seen real progress in this country from the 70s, my mixed race relationship would cause comments and funny looks, now it's almost nothing.

People can change, for good and bad.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
Yeah, it's just a total accident as to which groups the policy actually impacted. It's amazing how far some people will go to link things to one kind of bigotry, e.g. Omar's comments, but will utterly deny the basic tactics used by the right because they literally are unable to put "target black and brown people" in writing.

Anyway, I didn't want a debate with you. I just wanted bring up the post you made to remind people of your views on the matter.

The policy impacted upon illegal immigrants. I do not for one second believe that the windrush situation was in any way intended. It would have been ridiculous had that been the intention and deeply unpopular. But it had negative consequences.

I'm not defending the policy at all. I'm just saying there is a disctinction between a party being "tough on immigration" and a party being or acting in an "institutionally racist way". Sections of the Labour party are targeting and harassing Jewish members and MPs and organisations. It is overt, direct racism. And has not been satisfactorily dealt with.

If you cannot accept that then it is you with the problem not I.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,191
The policy impacted upon illegal immigrants. I do not for one second believe that the windrush situation was in any way intended. It would have been ridiculous had that been the intention and deeply unpopular. But it had negative consequences.

I'm not defending the policy at all. I'm just saying there is a disctinction between a party being "tough on immigration" and a party being or acting in an "institutionally racist way". Sections of the Labour party are targeting and harassing Jewish members and MPs and organisations. It is overt, direct racism. And has not been satisfactorily dealt with.

If you cannot accept that then it is you with the problem not I.
This is nonsense i'm sorry. The PM just decided to "accidentally" destroy the landing documents of the african immigrants under her temure as home secretary. It was just a total unintended mistake despite all the evidence that came out after stating the opposite? Theresa May is as racist as racist can be her entire tenure as home secretary is a testament to that fact. There are hundreds of horror stories specifically about her.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
The policy impacted upon illegal immigrants. I do not for one second believe that the windrush situation was in any way intended. It would have been ridiculous had that been the intention and deeply unpopular. But it had negative consequences.

I'm not defending the policy at all. I'm just saying there is a disctinction between a party being "tough on immigration" and a party being or acting in an "institutionally racist way". Sections of the Labour party are targeting and harassing Jewish members and MPs and organisations. It is overt, direct racism. And has not been satisfactorily dealt with.

If you cannot accept that then it is you with the problem not I.

You're actively defending the policy as not racist when that's not even up for debate given the very specific consequences of it. You're quick to point out how Brexit was all about racism because of the demonisation of illegal immigration, but now you're going out of your way to defend racist policy that's actually built around the demonetisation. You're giving the Tories the benefit of the doubt whilst at the same time you've ignored everybody pointing out the huge history of systemic/overt racism in the Tory party. You've ignored people pointing out to you that the current Labour has done more to combat in-party racism than New Labour or the Tories even though it's obviously still very far from perfect.

If you can't accept that's a bad look when it comes to actually caring about biggotry/racism in UK politics then that's very much your problem.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
I don't get the Lib Dem hate. I understand being pissed at them for tuition fees but it's like everyone forgets the rest, hell Cameron expected another coalition to get him out of his manifesto mess but he got a majority and shit the bed. Why hold them to purist account but nobody else. How many people probably said I'll never vote Labour again after Iraq or whatever. Like all politicians they will disappoint at some point, lie and do you really think the Lib Dems would have allowed a Brexit vote and even if they did I seriously doubt it wouldn't be without a majority vote needing to win 65% + People need to seriously get over themselves, the Lib Dems might be useless talk all day bollocks so don't vote for them, fair enough but don't raise the bar so far that you want to see the sunshine coming our their arse before even considering them again.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
You're actively defending the policy as not racist when that's not even up for debate given the very specific consequences of it. You're quick to point out how Brexit was all about racism because of the demonisation of illegal immigration, but now you're going out of your way to defend racist policy that's actually built around the demonetisation. You're giving the Tories the benefit of the doubt whilst at the same time you've ignored everybody pointing out the huge history of systemic/overt racism in the Tory party. You've ignored people pointing out to you that the current Labour has done more to combat in-party racism than New Labour or the Tories even though it's obviously still very far from perfect.

If you can't accept that's a bad look when it comes to actually caring about biggotry/racism in UK politics then that's very much your problem.

The current Labour party has entire factions of people undergoing daily organised hate campaigns against Jewish Labour MPs.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
This is nonsense i'm sorry. The PM just decided to "accidentally" destroy the landing documents of the african immigrants under her temure as home secretary. It was just a total unintended mistake despite all the evidence that came out after stating the opposite? Theresa May is as racist as racist can be her entire tenure as home secretary is a testament to that fact. There are hundreds of horror stories specifically about her.

Sorry but I absolutely do not agree. The idea that it was all an evil plot concocted over decades between two parties and kicked into operation by the dastardly May is absurd a theory as they come.

It was a terrible policy that had consequences that were absolutely not intended and I believe May is an authoritarian right wing populist. But a hostile environment approach to illegal immigration is very different to the incidences of overt racism we're seeing in Labour.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,191
Sorry but I absolutely do not agree. The idea that it was all an evil plot concocted over decades between two parties and kicked into operation by the dastardly May is absurd a theory as they come.

It was a terrible policy that had consequences that were absolutely not intended and I believe May is an authoritarian right wing populist. But a hostile environment approach to illegal immigration is very different to the incidences of overt racism we're seeing in Labour.
It's not an idea these are facts of history your dealing with. We're not talking about conspiracy theories but facts. You can try to to play mental gynamstics all you want. The fact remains under her tenure hundreds of legal briitish citizens landing documents were destroyed resulting in their deportation. This an action she took.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
The remain campaign wasn't exclusively led by the tory government. The comparison you made about the clear racism and xenophia of the Leave(rs) vs the tory government is, I'd argue, disingenuous and smells of "both sides!".
And the leave campaign wasn't exclusively lead by Johnson and Gove. But they were the main figures. As for the "both sides" point, I hope we haven't reached a point where we can't criticize failed campaigns from any political perspective. Both the political programs being presented by the leave campaign and the remain campaign deserve criticism.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
You're actively defending the policy as not racist when that's not even up for debate given the very specific consequences of it. You're quick to point out how Brexit was all about racism because of the demonisation of illegal immigration, but now you're going out of your way to defend racist policy that's actually built around the demonetisation. You're giving the Tories the benefit of the doubt whilst at the same time you've ignored everybody pointing out the huge history of systemic/overt racism in the Tory party. You've ignored people pointing out to you that the current Labour has done more to combat in-party racism than New Labour or the Tories even though it's obviously still very far from perfect.

If you can't accept that's a bad look when it comes to actually caring about biggotry/racism in UK politics then that's very much your problem.

The policy was not racist. You seem to struggle with the definition of racism. Many people voted for Brexit because they are racist. Not all people who want to control immigration are inherently racist and 17.4M people are not all racist.

Let me give you an example:

"We need to stop Eastern Europeans entering the country because they are thieves" - racist
"We need to stop so many people coming in because we haven't got the resources to support them" - not racist.

People cite examples that are either not racist or not systemic. This is the problem.

Yet there are examples within Labour of organised groups of members harassing and bullying Jewish people within the party. When said people leave or quite the harassers then demand "proof" and pretend that they are just "Tories in disguise" or "Zionists". This is a systemic problem that the Deputy Leader and a whole load of Labour MPs have admitted to.

Are many Tories racist? I'm absolutely sure they are. But as a party they aren't routinely spewing out these examples of systemic racism.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
Labour's problem is having 600,000 members and a minority of them thinking it's appropriate to bring up conspiracy theories about "Zionist controlled media" at local council meetings ... it needs to be stamped out.

Tories problem is literal government programs put in (by May as Home Secretary) to create a hostile environment for foreigners. This has led to fear in immigrant communities because of changes in law targeting them specifically, and a media-led hate campaign (practically condoned by the current government) leading to increases in violent crimes against immigrants.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
That doesn't remotely tell the whole story. It is a slice of the acceptable 'action' that has been taken. Jackie walker is going on for 2 years after saying Jews financed the slave trade, she's still in the party.

She was suspended for saying that. Then reinstated. Then suspended again when she said she couldn't find a definition of "anti-semitism she could work with". She might finally be thrown out next month!
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...in-zionist-attacks-on-luciana-berger-1.480143

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...ared-on-show-broadcast-by-david-icke-1.479784

The stats Formby gave are a slice of it. I'm sorry but if you really believe there were only six hundred or so incidents in the last 12 months, go on twitter, search for Berger and get back to me.

For those of you who are not in the reality distortion zone, please read this and see what they're up to.

And walker isn't a fringe activist, she was a central supporter of Corbyn and a founder of momentum. I think she might even still be a director, though that could be the equally disgraceful shawcroft.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
I don't know how you can say brexit is a partly racist project, and absolve a lot of the conservatives hyping up immigration issues and foreigners taking control for decades
 

Deleted member 38573

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 17, 2018
3,902
Is that what we're doing now. Citing twitter trolls.

When we speak on the racism of the Tory party we bring up future party leader Boris Johnsons' blatant Islamophobia, JRM downplaying concentration camps and the Windrush debacle...

But for the Labour party it's faceless twitter trolls and an activist that's been suspended twice and is about to get expelled
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
I don't know how you can say brexit is a partly racist project, and absolve a lot of the conservatives hyping up immigration issues and foreigners taking control for decades

You seem to not be able to separate racism from other things.

Xenophobia and nationalism are wrong. But not necessarily racist.

We're talking about a specific problem of racism specifically anti-semitism rooted within the Labour party right now.

I wouldn't vote Tory - and I've no doubt they have their own race issues too. And I find their policies abhorrent. But I don't see evidence of systemic racism in other major political parties - perhaps they are just hiding it better.

But Labour's problem is that enough of their own are reporting these issues and describing it as racist bullying and harrasment - and saying the party are either not taking it seriously or complicit. This needs to be taken extremely seriously and stamped out completely with strong action. Surely you agree on that? And it needs a complete change of tone and attitude from the top of the party. Now. Immediately. No more excuses. Surely you have to agree with that?
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
Is that what we're doing now. Citing twitter trolls.

When we speak on the racism of the Tory party we bring up future party leader Boris Johnsons' blatant Islamophobia, JRM downplaying concentration camps and the Windrush debacle...

But for the Labour party it's faceless twitter trolls and an activist that's been suspended twice and is about to get expelled

She isn't about to be expelled. No one knows what's happening because the leadership have created a disciplinary process which is opaque, so that they can pick and choose who they let off and who they don't.

And if you read those articles you'd know she's been routinely abused in person, in front of other labour MPs.

Really it is absolutely shocking and disgraceful that people are willing to look the other way when it comes to regular racist abuse because it's politically convenient and I'm absolutely astonished that it's tolerated on here.

Ian Austin @IanAustinMP
Of all the criticisms, this is the most ridiculous.
What my seven friends did yesterday is the opposite of careerism. It would be easy to keep your head down, promise loyalty, ignore the racism and extremism and keep your job.​

Michael McCarthy @Byxelrok
Replying to. @IanAustinMP
You are such a silly man, Austin, and so transparently dishonest. "Ignore the racism"? There is virtually no racism in the Labour party, but there is a squalid Israeli-govt financed plot, supported by its Zionist stooges, to pretend there is.​

Every single day there are hundreds of comments like this.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
Surely you have to agree with that?

Yeah, I get its a problem and because of support for Palestinians and the brutal behaviour of Israel people on the left have developed a blind spot.

I'm not arguing, I don't think it will ever be dealt with properly because a lot of it is done in a grey area that isn't as easy to deal with like regular racial slurs.

The type of idiot in Luciana's CLP should be dealt with a lot quicker when it's that blatant and personal.
 

Deleted member 38573

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 17, 2018
3,902
She isn't about to be expelled. No one knows what's happening because the leadership have created a disciplinary process which is opaque, so that they can pick and choose who they let off and who they don't.

And if you read those articles you'd know she's been routinely abused in person, in front of other labour MPs.

Really it is absolutely shocking and disgraceful that people are willing to look the other way when it comes to regular racist abuse because it's politically convenient and I'm absolutely astonished that it's tolerated on here.

Ok she has an expulsion hearing... after being suspended twice now... I'll put money on her being kicked out. If not i'll quote you with an apology i guess.

Nobody is looking the other way on here. Pipe down. My first post itt I stated Lucianas abuse was horrible. Report posts as you see fit
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
Yeah, I get its a problem and because of support for Palestinians and the brutal behaviour of Israel people on the left have developed a blind spot.

I'm not arguing, I don't think it will ever be dealt with properly because a lot of it is done in a grey area that isn't as easy to deal with like regular racial slurs.

The type of idiot in Luciana's CLP should be dealt with a lot quicker when it's that blatant and personal.

This is victim blaming. Berger's only crime is that she believes Israel has a right to exist. That does not justify any of the abuse thrown her way by mainly white middle class men.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,191
You seem to not be able to separate racism from other things.

Xenophobia and nationalism are wrong. But not necessarily racist.

We're talking about a specific problem of racism specifically anti-semitism rooted within the Labour party right now.

I wouldn't vote Tory - and I've no doubt they have their own race issues too. And I find their policies abhorrent. But I don't see evidence of systemic racism in other major political parties - perhaps they are just hiding it better.

But Labour's problem is that enough of their own are reporting these issues and describing it as racist bullying and harrasment - and saying the party are either not taking it seriously or complicit. This needs to be taken extremely seriously and stamped out completely with strong action. Surely you agree on that? And it needs a complete change of tone and attitude from the top of the party. Now. Immediately. No more excuses. Surely you have to agree with that?
Xenophobia is is pretty much always racist. I ask you to bring you direct evidence of xenophobic incidents that definitively had nothing to do with race. Should be simple enough considering your assertations.
 

Deleted member 862

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,646
how can you claim people are looking the other way and constantly bring up the number of complaints being dealt with? you can't have it both ways
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
I'm not defending that policy. But it isn't racist in itself. Its xenophobic, bigoted and completely unacceptable IMO. However, it wasn't a "racist policy". It wasn't targeted at "Jews or Asians or Black people" it was simply a plan to create a "hostile environment" to try and deter illegal immigrants from any race or ethnicity from entering the country.

It is completely wrong. And of course some of the interpretations and implementations were racist. But the policy itself as abhorrent as it is, is not racist.

It is also not a policy that is exclusive to this country.
Windrush is 100% racist
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
She isn't about to be expelled. No one knows what's happening because the leadership have created a disciplinary process which is opaque, so that they can pick and choose who they let off and who they don't.

And if you read those articles you'd know she's been routinely abused in person, in front of other labour MPs.

Really it is absolutely shocking and disgraceful that people are willing to look the other way when it comes to regular racist abuse because it's politically convenient and I'm absolutely astonished that it's tolerated on here.



Every single day there are hundreds of comments like this.

Sheesh that tweet ------ "There is virtually no racism in the Labour party - let me prove it by saying something disgustingly racist..."
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,431
Yeah I don't see how any of this is helping or being constructive. It's just preventing conversation.

There's a worthwhile discussion to be had about what's happened to Labour in the past four years but the approach of some posters in this thread just brings that to a standstill.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
How is it victim blaming, I said kick them out for abusing her.

Because you start your post by saying she's getting abuse because of support for Israel creating a blindspot. Her believing Israel has a right to exist is neither here nor there. She's being racially abused and people are doing nothing about it. Corbyn hasn't even spoken to her for 14 months.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
Every single day there are hundreds of comments like this.
Sheesh that tweet ------ "There is virtually no racism in the Labour party - let me prove it by saying something disgustingly racist..."


Am I missing something, how can you tell this person is a member of the Labour Party?

I think one of the problems is being able to work out if random messages are by people in the membership.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
Because you start your post by saying she's getting abuse because of support for Israel creating a blindspot. Her believing Israel has a right to exist is neither here nor there. She's being racially abused and people are doing nothing about it. Corbyn hasn't even spoken to her for 14 months.

No the first bit was agreeing that Labour has a problem and why it has taken root, and is difficult to deal with, I wasn't thinking of Luciana.
 

Deleted member 38573

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 17, 2018
3,902
Am I missing something, how can you tell this person is a member of the Labour Party?

I think one of the problems is being able to work out if random messages are by people in the membership.

this is UK political discourse now. twitter trolls are proof of a systemic issue within a political party lmao, boy if they did any digging into Diane Abbotts career...