Minako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
477
Forums are a great place for discussion, and when discussing an artistic medium like video games, people have many varying opinions on each game, and often strong feelings on what they like and/or dislike about a game. A generally accepted rule is that all criticism should be constructive, but not everyone criticizes games in a constructive way online. This isn't necessarily people trying to kick up dirt or start a fight; they have valid ideas on where games can be improved, but they receive backlash because of the presentation of these ideas. Because of this I thought I would write some tips that people can check with to make sure their criticism is constructive. I hope this will help keep discussion healthy, especially with talk about new and popular games.

When criticizing a game in a forum, there's a few things to take into consideration:

TIMING
How new is this game? If it recently released, people may still be on the hype train, and nobody wants their excitement suddenly dampened by someone else. If the game is old, people may have nostalgia for it, and aren't as receptive to ideas that go against their fond memories of the game. Neither of these things make a game immune to criticism, but in these situations you need to keep in mind how your communication is presented. This isn't a call to hold back from criticism, just to be aware of how it may be received and present it in a way that makes your message clear.

PRESENTATION
Constructive criticism has a very simple formula: "I like X, but I dislike Y. Z would be better."
You should begin your point with something positive about the game which is impacted by the flaw you're leading into with your criticism. For example:
I like the platforming challenges in Odyssey, but it bothers me how some of them force you to use motion controls if you're not playing with a pro controller. If I could turn off motion controls entirely for all modes I would enjoy the game even more.
Presenting your criticisms this way does a few things:
  • It makes your criticism constructive. Putting your positive point before your negative one gives your criticism context as to what area of the game was impacted by the flaw you're about to point out. Many people make the mistake of pointing out a flaw in a game, and explaining in detail why it is a problem, and leaving it at that. That is not constructive. Constructive criticism must explain how something can improve, not just where it falls short. Saying "Y is bad because of 1, 2, and 3" doesn't always make it clear where the improvement should happen. You might be talking about what you think should be removed from the game, but you haven't addressed what "better" thing should replace it. Make sure you're clear about what would be better, not only what is bad.

  • It's polite. You avoid coming across as abrasive with your criticism. People won't feel like you're there to just "talk shit" about something they enjoy if you've articulated both its strengths and weaknesses. You don't have to like every game as much as other people do, but always be mindful when talking about it that you're not making people feel like you don't think they should like it.

  • It validates your criticisms. When you can point out both the good and bad parts of the game, it shows that you paid attention when you were playing and carefully thought about both the strengths and weaknesses of the game before speaking on it. You've avoided coming across as someone making a knee-jerk reaction on something minor that pushed the wrong buttons, and are instead presenting yourself as someone who cares about the game and wants it to be better.
EMPATHY
Make sure your criticism is limited to flaws with the game, not criticizing people who enjoy it. There's no way to constructively criticize someone's taste in games. As soon as you move past criticizing the game and start insulting the people you're discussing it with, anything "constructive" you've said loses all credibility. Understand that people value different aspects of games, and will like games despite their flaws. Don't try to change someone's feelings about their favorite game, or assume they enjoy experiencing games the same way that you do. Focus on expressing your own thoughts and feelings about the game as opposed to coming at it from a standpoint of changing the other person's. If you express yourself well, more often than not the person you are talking to will take that into account and reevaluate their opinion with that information without you needing to take any active part in that process.

Edited in response to constructive criticism from the community :)
 
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Fireclad

Member
Oct 27, 2017
602
I actually really appreciate the write up. Thanks, Minako.

Art critique can kind of be an art in and of itself and is of profound importance when discussing what you do and don't like about a work. Some things really boil down to personal preferences and biases but others are objective. If we want the things we enjoy to continue to improve and keep giving back hours of enjoyment in the future it's helpful to know how to critique our hobbies and interests. It's a boon to creators that take note of your comments, especially with the uptick in indie development, to know that you actually appreciate the work being put into the content. The creative staff wants to put out the best product possible and end user response can be a pretty big part of that as it often offers a unique perspective somewhat different than that which is provided by review outlets. That and good critique just generally makes for much more engaging and enlightening conversation.
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
Great post OP, you make some great points, however:
You should always begin your point with something positive about the game which then leads into your criticism
This appears to be a very subjective issue, what should be stated first and what should be stated last. You did not address why this method is better than listing the negatives first, and then proceeding to list the positives.

But I can see it being better for listing specific flaws, and how to improve them, like you mentioned above. I tend to do the opposite when not talking about any specific drawbacks.
 

Mr.Flufferson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
214
but what if i dont have anything positive to say about a game

If people are talking about a game they enjoy and you hate the game and have nothing positive to say, then you should probably just not say anything. If you like the game and care about it but have some constructive criticisms then go for it, but there is no need to spread negativity to people who are enjoying themselves.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
95,835
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If people are talking about a game they enjoy and you hate the game and have nothing positive to say, then you should probably just not say anything. If you like the game and care about it but have some constructive criticisms then go for it, but there is no need to spread negativity to people who are enjoying themselves.
so just make a separate thread?
 

Arklite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,657
EMPATHY
Make sure your criticism is limited to flaws with the game, not criticizing people who enjoy it. There's no way to constructively criticize someone's taste in games. As soon as you move past criticizing the game and start insulting the people you're discussing it with, anything "constructive" you've said loses all credibility. Understand that people value different aspects of games, and will like games despite their flaws. Don't try to change someone's feelings about their favorite game, or assume they enjoy experiencing games the same way that you do.

This one is key even to people who otherwise seem rationale. Certainly there's styles that are more appealing to different groups but the type of put downs thrown around titles like RE6, or accusations at times thrown directly to creators and fans as in Dragon's Crown, can be terrible.
 

TheIcedP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
115
I need to start following this form, I forget how sometimes people enjoy the games I constantly rag on.
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
Don't try to change someone's feelings about their favorite game, or assume they enjoy experiencing games the same way that you do.

I don't know about this. People challenging me on why I like things makes me think about these things more and responding sometimes leads to me getting a understanding of my own sensibilities and interests.
 
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Minako

Minako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
477
I don't know about this. People challenging me on why I like things makes me think about these things more and responding sometimes leads to me getting a understanding of my own sensibilities and interests.
My point is to focus on expressing your own thoughts and feelings about the game as opposed to coming at it from a standpoint of changing the other person's. If you express yourself well, more often than not the person you are talking to will take that into account and reevaluate their opinion with that information without you needing to take any active part in that process.
 

MaskedNdi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
If people are talking about a game they enjoy and you hate the game and have nothing positive to say, then you should probably just not say anything. If you like the game and care about it but have some constructive criticisms then go for it, but there is no need to spread negativity to people who are enjoying themselves.

I don't think people should have to hold back if they have negative opinions, but they should make sure that their feedback is valuable and interesting. I have always appreciated it when people recommend other titles while criticizing something.
 

Dev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
845
Australia
Good write up, but I was hoping for some cool indie social etiquette game about giving constructive criticism. There's a few similar games, this is a new one I'd like to see. Just reviewing it would be the metagame.
 

linko9

Member
Oct 27, 2017
437
Fair enough, but if you have a gripe with a game it's fine to just post what your problem is without searching around for something to praise to put in the same post. A video game forum post doesn't have to have the structure of a published review, and in fact you can make your point more clear if you don't tack on irrelevant additional points when all you're trying to do is draw attention to a specific issue or criticism you have.
 

TheWordyGuy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,623
So I shouldn't write: "God this game is a piece of garbage and how can you possibly spend even one minute of your life on this, you must have absolutely nothing going for you."

That would be bad?
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
If people are talking about a game they enjoy and you hate the game and have nothing positive to say, then you should probably just not say anything. If you like the game and care about it but have some constructive criticisms then go for it, but there is no need to spread negativity to people who are enjoying themselves.
I think it's fine for someone to express that they didn't enjoy something, the line is when you aren't showing awareness that it's your opinion and others' might differ. It's the difference between saying "I didn't like thing" and "thing is trash".

EDIT: post above mine sums it up hahaha
 
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Minako

Minako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
477
but what if i dont have anything positive to say about a game
It's very rare that a game has absolutely no redeeming qualities. In a case like that it might be good to take a step back and reevaluate your thoughts on the game before commenting, especially if it's getting a lot of praise from other people. If you're not talking about something like the Atari E.T. game that's universally reviled by everyone who played it, I'm sure there's something about it worth complimenting. Even if you have 100 complaints, if you've taken the time to consider the game you should have 1 positive thing to say. Not every game is good, but usually even the worst games have at least one good idea behind them that's worth noting.
You did not address why this method is better than listing the negatives first, and then proceeding to list the positives.
People generally are more receptive to negative comments about something they like if you've first shown that you recognize at least one positive aspect of it. It increases the chance that they'll understand where you're coming from when you get to your complaint and not have a knee-jerk reaction to it.
 

GearDraxon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,786
People generally are more receptive to negative comments about something they like if you've first shown that you recognize at least one positive aspect of it. It increases the chance that they'll understand where you're coming from when you get to your complaint and not have a knee-jerk reaction to it.
I'd also posit that it forces you to think a bit more about the game in question, which will likely cause your criticism to have more thought than a simple "this is trash" or zinger of a GIF.
 

Deleted member 6215

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Oct 25, 2017
2,087
You should always begin your point with something positive about the game which then leads into your criticism.

I really disagree with this concept. In the business world we call this kind of feedback a "shit sandwich": Start (and possibly end) with something nice, and try to insert something negative/critical in the middle. The positive thing ends up looking trite, people ignore the main point, and It weakens your message.

State your idea clearly and respectfully right from the start. You can be critical of something and be polite at the same time. No one likes eating a shit sandwich.
 
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Minako

Minako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
477
I really disagree with this concept. In the business world we call this kind of feedback a "shit sandwich": Start (and possibly end) with something nice, and try to insert something negative/critical in the middle. The positive thing ends up looking trite, people ignore the main point, and It weakens your message.

State your idea clearly and respectfully right from the start. You can be critical of something and be polite at the same time. No one likes eating a shit sandwich.
We're talking about this in the sense of critiquing art, not business, but regardless if your positive points don't also have similar value as your negative then you didn't think carefully enough about the situation to be making constructive criticisms. At that point you're either being insulting up front (unhelpful) or pretending to not be insulting (even less helpful, as you pointed out). You're right that it's possible to give criticism respectfully but that doesn't mean it's constructive. If anything you've weakened your message more by not pointing out the strengths of what you're criticizing (which can be further improved upon after being noted), and leaving out where your criticisms can be improved upon. Maybe constructive criticism isn't appropriate for every context, but it's better to own up to the fact that it isn't constructive than pretend that your non-constructive criticism holds more value than it really does.

Edit: Point expanded upon.
 
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Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
I really disagree with this concept. In the business world we call this kind of feedback a "shit sandwich": Start (and possibly end) with something nice, and try to insert something negative/critical in the middle. The positive thing ends up looking trite, people ignore the main point, and It weakens your message.

State your idea clearly and respectfully right from the start. You can be critical of something and be polite at the same time. No one likes eating a shit sandwich.

I find that it's better to start with the brutal criticisms and end with a compliment, unless the game is irredeemably bad.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,272
Pittsburgh
I think any and all debates for gaming is great fun . The problem is when people throw in the "attitude" which turns it into more of a verbal attack on someone's intelligence or what not. If people left that out then things would always be kosher, but so many people on forums can't help but disagree while also posting to insult, or subtly insult... And that's where the problem lies.

Game debates are awesome when people are mature about them.
 
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Minako

Minako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
477
I find that it's better to start with the brutal criticisms and end with a compliment, unless the game is irredeemably bad.
Maybe you feel it's implied but to me it looks like you're missing the key part of explaining how your criticisms can be improved upon/fixed, without which your criticism isn't constructive.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,520
Seattle
"Its not the worst thing I have ever experienced in my life before"

"I appreciate that the game didn't brick my console."

"I'm delighted that the reasons I wouldn't enjoy this game were so obvious that I didn't spend any more time with it."

"I'm sorry I can't see what others see in this game, given that it won more GOTY awards than any other last year, but sadly I'm just not feeling it."
 

Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,508
I think that one of the most important things to keep in mind is that criticism of The Thing You Like is not criticism of those who like said thing, and should not be taken as such. That seems to be a huge issue with people and it's a sentiment that we should great pains not to encourage, because all it takes is one person mad about criticism to derail a discussion. We shouldn't have to walk on eggshells while offering criticism of something in order to avoid enraging others.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,423
Chesire, UK
You should always begin your point with something positive about the game which then leads into your criticism.

This is from the "shit-sandwich" school of conversation etiquette, something I think is an unnecessary linguistic technique.

Sugar coating valid and constructive criticism is not necessarily useful. Prefacing perfectly salient points with tangential information can muddy understanding, and detract from what you really wanted to communicate.

Being concise is it's own virtue.

Don't try to change someone's feelings about their favorite game, or assume they enjoy experiencing games the same way that you do.

Vocal criticism is intended to change minds. Constructive criticism especially so.

We criticise things in the hope of changing them for the better. To enact that change we have to convince people. To convince people we have to change their minds.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
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Oct 25, 2017
95,835
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honestly, I don;t really think there's much of a point in having 'criticism guidelines'

a persons point or criticism should stand on it;s own strengths and weaknesses as an argument. that's the point of debating in most conversations about a games pluses and minuses anyways

the last thing i want to see happen is people linking this thread anytime someone voices their opinion about not liking certain aspects of a game just because they didn't start their comment saying one thing they liked about said game
 
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Minako

Minako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
477
This is from the "shit-sandwich" school of conversation etiquette, something I think is an unnecessary linguistic technique.

Sugar coating valid and constructive criticism is not necessarily useful. Prefacing perfectly salient points with tangential information can muddy understanding, and detract from what you really wanted to communicate.
This is an excuse to not have to think critically about what you're criticizing in order to identify both strenghts and weaknesses. Under the guise of brevity you've only given half the thought required to give criticism that is fully constructive.
Vocal criticism is intended to change minds. Constructive criticism especially so.

We criticise things in the hope of changing them for the better. To enact that change we have to convince people. To convince people we have to change their minds.
I may edit my original post to better express the message I was trying to get across.
My point is to focus on expressing your own thoughts and feelings about the game as opposed to coming at it from a standpoint of changing the other person's. If you express yourself well, more often than not the person you are talking to will take that into account and reevaluate their opinion with that information without you needing to take any active part in that process.
 
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Minako

Minako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
477
honestly, I don;t really think there's much of a point in having 'criticism guidelines'

a persons point or criticism should stand on it;s own strengths and weaknesses as an argument. that's the point of debating in most conversations about a games pluses and minuses anyways

the last thing i want to see happen is people linking this thread anytime someone voices their opinion about not liking certain aspects of a game just because they didn't start their comment saying one thing they liked about said game
Not all criticism has to be constructive. If you want to just straight up criticize something you don't like, you can do that if you really want to. But it's important to recognize what criticism is constructive and what isn't, which is why I wrote this.
 

Jojo Leir

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
628
Sure, let's try this:

I think the OPs intention is absolutely great and a nice starting point on how to present an argument in a way that leads to a constructive discussion about video games or any other topic, for that matter.

but

It places a lot emphasis on walking on eggshells to avoid upsetting anyone who might be bothered by criticism of a subject they like. This burden shouldn't be placed on the person making the critic if their argument is well constructed, presented, and the OP said, polite. If even then someone gets upset that the thing they like is being criticized they should just take a walk outside.



I'll add that giving a solution to problems instead of just pointing them out is an advice for life, so that's another good thing about the OP.
 

Deleted member 15326

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Oct 27, 2017
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I don't believe you have to lie and praise a game in any way if you don't have anything positive to say, that's meaningless. However, it is kind of disappointing to see some many people opposed to offering useful criticism instead of just bitching.

Good luck fostering positive dev relations.
 

Aselith

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,697
Great post OP, you make some great points, however:

This appears to be a very subjective issue, what should be stated first and what should be stated last. You did not address why this method is better than listing the negatives first, and then proceeding to list the positives.

But I can see it being better for listing specific flaws, and how to improve them, like you mentioned above. I tend to do the opposite when not talking about any specific drawbacks.

It's better to out positives first because it lowers defenses whereas putting negatives first raises defenses.

People are more inclined to receive negatives if they feel that you are on "their side" somewhat even if your negatives outnumber positives or whatever.

This is simple psychology not a subjective thing. "I like your write up but try sucking less" will always sound just a little better than "your write up sucks but I like the way you wrote it."
 
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Oct 27, 2017
2,272
Pittsburgh
honestly, I don;t really think there's much of a point in having 'criticism guidelines'

a persons point or criticism should stand on it;s own strengths and weaknesses as an argument. that's the point of debating in most conversations about a games pluses and minuses anyways

the last thing i want to see happen is people linking this thread anytime someone voices their opinion about not liking certain aspects of a game just because they didn't start their comment saying one thing they liked about said game

Totally agree. As I said, opinions aren't the issue it's when people act like dicks while giving said opinion.
 
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Minako

Minako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
477
It places a lot emphasis on walking on eggshells to avoid upsetting anyone who might be bothered by criticism of a subject they like. This burden shouldn't be placed on the person making the critic if their argument is well constructed, presented, and the OP said, polite. If even then someone gets upset that the thing they like is being criticized they should just take a walk outside.
This is a funny comment to me because I view my post not as how to walk on eggshells but rather how to present a well constructed argument. I do agree with the second part that if you present a well constructed, polite argument and someone is still upset by it, that is probably on them, not you. Some people can't tolerate any criticism of what they love because they view it as a personal attack on them, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't express our thoughts in a helpful way rather than being insulting by default :)
I don't believe you have to lie and praise a game in any way if you don't have anything positive to say, that's meaningless. However, it is kind of disappointing to see some many people opposed to offering useful criticism instead of just bitching.
I was surprised by this as well. Some people seem to have missed my point that you need to address both the strengths and weaknesses of something to be constructive. If "sugarcoating" or pulling a "compliment" out of thin air is involved then you haven't given proper thought to your criticism.
Great thread OP.

Thanks for posting.
Thank you for your dad jokes ^_^