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tadaima

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,843
Tokyo, Japan
You argued blockchain will let you resell digital goods.

I politely said no it won't because that could be done right now by literally everyone without blockchain but no one wants to because inability to resell is literally a feature of digital media.

You then using a different argument (that companies just haven't adapted to blockchain yet) basically reiterated your thesis that you believe blockchain will let resell digital media

I then reiterated again why it won't only this time I said shit

And here we are.

Like you can say the same thing two different ways and still be saying the same thing.
My post was about possible applications of blockchains/NFTs, using selling a variety of assets as an example of one application.

You replied to my post saying (para) companies will never adopt it:
Digital games and movies are on store fronts that will never allow resale, no blockchain nonsense is going to change that

Because a lsck of blockchain is not preventing ot from being implemented rightnow.

To which I replied (para) companies have generally been slow to adopt:
Media corporations have resisted technology repeatedly. And yet they always eventually adapt.

Those storefronts you describe would have been impossible to fathom just a couple of decades ago. Legal streaming services, even moreso.

You provided a one-line reply:

What the shit does that have to do with blockchain

...before editing after I had replied to you.

You then excused your hostility with telling me I had repeated myself, you accused me of being the one to start the argument, when it was you who had replied to my post to another user, you continued a string of hostile posts, and you continue to edit after I reply to you, in some cases editing your previous posts after you have replied to my replies of them.

I suggest you take some time out, as it seems like you have anger issues.

Enjoy being on my ignore list.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,345
NFT means non fungible token, which in turn means they have a unique code tied to them. They are individual digital pictures, videos, video game accessories, ect. Basically ANYTHING digital can be processed as a nft by burning a bunch of energy to crunch a fuck ton of data and tie a non fungible token to it. Because they have these tokens attached, they are technically one of a kind which makes people think they hold any value at all, because you can only have this single one and nobody else can. So now that people pretend that matters at all, they try to invest in the nft and buy it at a price they later hope to sell for more.... For big profit!!!! If they can find someone who's more of a sucker than they are that is. It's a huge scam.

It's the 90s comic speculators boom but somehow even more stupid
 

Yasumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,583
NFT means non fungible token, which in turn means they have a unique code tied to them. They are individual digital pictures, videos, video game accessories, ect. Basically ANYTHING digital can be processed as a nft by burning a bunch of energy to crunch a fuck ton of data and tie a non fungible token to it. Because they have these tokens attached, they are technically one of a kind which makes people think they hold any value at all, because you can only have this single one and nobody else can. So now that people pretend that matters at all, they try to invest in the nft and buy it at a price they later hope to sell for more.... For big profit!!!! If they can find someone who's more of a sucker than they are that is. It's a huge scam.
Also why the evangelism is so common. "It's the future!" "Get in early!" "Check out what I bought!" "Join the community!" It's all to rope in more potential suckers, eventually roping in the particular kind of sucker that gets stuck with a $90,000 pixel monkey jpg receipt. It's all a grift.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
Also why the evangelism is so common. "It's the future!" "Get in early!" "Check out what I bought!" "Join the community!" It's all to rope in more potential suckers, eventually roping in the particular kind of sucker that gets stuck with a $90,000 pixel monkey jpg receipt. It's all a grift.
Bingo.

Don't get left holding the bag people!!!!! Even the first purchase of a nft could leave you as the LAST person to buy it.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,345
Also why the evangelism is so common. "It's the future!" "Get in early!" "Check out what I bought!" "Join the community!" It's all to rope in more potential suckers, eventually roping in the particular kind of sucker that gets stuck with a $90,000 pixel monkey jpg receipt. It's all a grift.
There's a reason media companies are selling digital gold statuettes and not copies of their actual products as nfts lol
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,550
the other notable difference here is that single-use plastic, while enormously bad, also like... provides a societal good. plastic is useful and also cheap! eating meat is more harmful for the environment than a plant-based diet, but it also provides a societal good. you can eat it. people love eating it!

the question isn't just "should we tell people to stop doing things for the sake of the environment", the question is "what costs will be incurred by telling people to stop doing things, and will the resulting gains be worth it". the problem isn't just that crypto pollutes, it's that crypto pollutes and provides no tangible benefit to society outside of enriching some few people and providing a year's supply of corporate buzzwords

it's the "someone help me balance my budget" dril tweet, except "candles" is "jpegs of monkeys" and the budget is co2 equivalents
Exactly, in a cost benefit scenario the costs of crypto (at least right now) are super high and the benefits are pretty fucking minimal. Like even though we should reduce our use of plastic (and probably develop ways of breaking it down more safely), it's also probably not feasible for our society to abandon it entirely at this point, there's a lot of incredibly useful qualities to plastic that would be hard to completely replace. Crypto's benefits are minimal (and often purely theoretical at this stage) over existing alternatives, so if you're deciding where to make cuts it's a no brainer. Maybe one day when green energy is the norm and the resource situation is different it might be worth looking into again, but right now it's clearly not worth it as a society
 

Hecht

Pushin’ me down, pushin’ me down, pushin’ me down
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,740
Also why the evangelism is so common. "It's the future!" "Get in early!" "Check out what I bought!" "Join the community!" It's all to rope in more potential suckers, eventually roping in the particular kind of sucker that gets stuck with a $90,000 pixel monkey jpg receipt. It's all a grift.
Literally how MLMs work. If you get in on a [successful] MLM early you are set. Get in late? Fuck you.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
93,939
here
you cant sell me my scent is everywhere i OWN this house

MDiFVon.gif
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
93,939
here
the swedish mafia is always on time and their kisses taste like cocoa
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
931
When the owner of a digital asset transfers the right of ownership of that asset to a new owner, the original owner is declaring that the digital asset is the original, non-fraudulent/infringing version of that asset, and that the new owner is the only person that has the right to own that asset.

I suppose a simple analogy would be the equivalent of owning a genuine digital copy of a PC game. It's still byte-equivalent the same software, and still runs on the same machine, but the fact that the genuine copy was purchased from the publisher makes it genuine. In the case of proving its authenticity, you have the Steam receipt. In the case of proving an NFT's authenticity, you have the transaction broadcasted to a blockchain.

(Btw, I'm just sharing information. No need for hostility.)
NFT almost never carry the legal ownership of the digital art IP rights. What was the first/original is irrelevant if you don't get any legal claim over usage.

NFT technology is hard to use for legitimate purposes since it tends to be inefficient and is made to avoid having authorities that can force changes/corrections. I suppose that can be used sometimes when none of the parties trust anyone or in small scale if you just want an standarized way to have a digital ledger and don't care for efficiency.
 

Bitch Pudding

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,202
Shit, I'm getting old. Not only do I fail to understand anything related to this bullshit, I'm also not interested in spending any time to learn about it.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
they haven't been pirated, it's like taking a phot of the mona lisa and saying you own the mona lisa
More like you painted a recreation of it, and the frames the same, and every single brush stroke is the same, and the color is exact and claim you have the real deal.
 
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jsnepo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,648
I can't believe there are literal adults who are falling for NFTs. I mean it's an obvious grift. The future my ass. There's not one use case that can't be done without it RIGHT NOW. It's not the future but a pretend solution for a non-existent problem.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,620
My post was about possible applications of blockchains/NFTs, using selling a variety of assets as an example of one application.

You replied to my post saying (para) companies will never adopt it:


To which I replied (para) companies have generally been slow to adopt:


You provided a one-line reply:



...before editing after I had replied to you.

You then excused your hostility with telling me I had repeated myself, you accused me of being the one to start the argument, when it was you who had replied to my post to another user, you continued a string of hostile posts, and you continue to edit after I reply to you, in some cases editing your previous posts after you have replied to my replies of them.

I suggest you take some time out, as it seems like you have anger issues.

Enjoy being on my ignore list.

You are not understanding excelsiorlef

Her point is that media companies have no reason to allow users to resell their digital licences because they want consumers to buy directly from them. These companies can implement reselling of digital things right now, without the help of blockchain at all, if they wanted to. Just look at Steam marketplace. You don't need blockchain for this. It's not about slow adoption of tech, it's about not wanting consumers to be able to trade their digital things.

Blockchain will not give consumers what we want because companies don't want us to trade purchases, not because they don't have the tech.
 

Pand

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
554
Every time I read a post that intents to clear the use of NFTs up once and for all for us silly non-believers I get a little excited, because I really want to believe the whole thing isn't as stupid as it sounds.

I'm disappointed every time. People are dumb as fuck.
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,563
You are not understanding excelsiorlef

Her point is that media companies have no reason to allow users to resell their digital licences because they want consumers to buy directly from them. These companies can implement reselling of digital things right now, without the help of blockchain at all, if they wanted to. Just look at Steam marketplace. You don't need blockchain for this. It's not about slow adoption of tech, it's about not wanting consumers to be able to trade their digital things.

Blockchain will not give consumers what we want because companies don't want us to trade purchases, not because they don't have the tech.
I get this point but let's also not forget that not every company has a Steam, is willing to put the time and money in creating one, or is interested in paying Valve a percentage of all proceedings. Linking digital licenses to NFT's of any sort is free to them and they hold complete control over what happens to them, without having to give a cut to anyone else. If their market research would indicate they'll gain even 1% more profit from doing this, they'll jump right on it.

I mean, it's not weird that Valve has banned NFT's and blockchain games from their store as it's a direct threat to their ecosystem and it's also not surprising that Epic, who doesn't have a marketplace in their store, is welcoming them. It allows Epic to create a reseller marketplace for a fraction of the price of setting up the feature in their store the classic way and compete with Steam in a way they couldn't before.

I mean, is it really that weird to think an indie developer would be interested in the option of being able to publish their game with an NFT license from their own simple store, without Apple, Google, Epic, Steam, etc taking a cut from every sale and allowing players to resell the game while still receiving income from resale without having to set up a store that competes with the likes of Steam?
 

thomas_cale

Member
May 22, 2020
571
I get this point but let's also not forget that not every company has a Steam, is willing to put the time and money in creating one, or is interested in paying Valve a percentage of all proceedings. Linking digital licenses to NFT's of any sort is free to them and they hold complete control over what happens to them, without having to give a cut to anyone else. If their market research would indicate they'll gain even 1% more profit from doing this, they'll jump right on it.

I mean, it's not weird that Valve has banned NFT's and blockchain games from their store as it's a direct threat to their ecosystem and it's also not surprising that Epic, who doesn't have a marketplace in their store, is welcoming them. It allows Epic to create a reseller marketplace for a fraction of the price of setting up the feature in their store the classic way and compete with Steam in a way they couldn't before.

I mean, is it really that weird to think an indie developer would be interested in the option of being able to publish their game with an NFT license from their own simple store, without Apple, Google, Epic, Steam, etc taking a cut from every sale and allowing players to resell the game while still receiving income from resale without having to set up a store that competes with the likes of Steam?
I dont think that´s based in reality.
Since you are bringing up market research, how many indies release on none of the big plattforms and actually make a decent amount of money?
Now you are saying they forego releasing on any of those plattforms and the lost revenue from that is going to be made up from people being able to resell their game, which the developer wont see any profit from?

I just dont see any way to make that profitable, even though I see the point your making
 

Kenai

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,297
I get this point but let's also not forget that not every company has a Steam, is willing to put the time and money in creating one, or is interested in paying Valve a percentage of all proceedings. Linking digital licenses to NFT's of any sort is free to them and they hold complete control over what happens to them, without having to give a cut to anyone else. If their market research would indicate they'll gain even 1% more profit from doing this, they'll jump right on it.

This is never going to happen precisely because there is no way to make more money from a resale vs just having someone buy the full purchase again. The entire concept of a "used" digital good doesn't make sense, it's the same item and doesn't degrade, get damaged over time or take up space in your home like physical games. It's why the entire industry has been so adamant about not letting us re-sell games at all, they don't make as much money as a new sale. Even without the logistical mess involved with "selling" the game or NFT or whatever (that, again, would mean said company doing more work so that they can earn less money), it's never going to be worth more than simply directing an interested buyer to a new sale.

I mean, it's not weird that Valve has banned NFT's and blockchain games from their store as it's a direct threat to their ecosystem and it's also not surprising that Epic, who doesn't have a marketplace in their store, is welcoming them. It allows Epic to create a reseller marketplace for a fraction of the price of setting up the feature in their store the classic way and compete with Steam in a way they couldn't before.

I mean, is it really that weird to think an indie developer would be interested in the option of being able to publish their game with an NFT license from their own simple store, without Apple, Google, Epic, Steam, etc taking a cut from every sale and allowing players to resell the game while still receiving income from resale without having to set up a store that competes with the likes of Steam?

What incentive does Epic have to create a reseller market versus just directing people to buy a new copy? What incentive does a theoretical indie dev have? Again, this is the same industry that treats every "used" sale as a lost new sale, always has, and these used digital purchases are all but indistinguishable from a brand new one. Why would they go out of their way to cannibalize their own sales from their own stores by creating this ecosystem?
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,563
I dont think that´s based in reality.
Since you are bringing up market research, how many indies release on none of the big plattforms and actually make a decent amount of money?
Now you are saying they forego releasing on any of those plattforms and the lost revenue from that is going to be made up from people being able to resell their game, which the developer wont see any profit from?

I just dont see any way to make that profitable, even though I see the point your making
But the developer would see profit from people being able to resell their game, that's the whole point. I could perfectly see a party like Devolver do this. They have enough clout and games to make a basic store but nowhere near the infrastructure to set up their own private marketplace.

My main argument in this is really just that people keep pointing to big marktleaders who've had a grip on the marketplace AND the infrastructure for a decade and say "look they haven't done it so obviously no developer or publisher want to do it" while the whole idea behind blockchains is to move away from that kind of centralized power. Yeah, ofcourse Steam isn't going to allow it, why would they? They're king of the world. They'd be giving up power. It's the other that have alot to gain.

This is never going to happen precisely because there is no way to make more money from a resale vs just having someone buy the full purchase again. The entire concept of a "used" digital good doesn't make sense, it's the same item. It's why the entire industry has been so adamant about not letting us re-sell games at all, they don't make as much money as a new sale. Even without the logistical mess involved with "selling" the game or NFT or whatever (that, again, would mean said company doing more work so that they can earn less money), it's never going to be worth more than simply directing an interested buyer to a new sale.
What logistical mess with selling an NFT? It doesn't cost the company anything to make one.

What incentive does Epic have to create a reseller market versus just directing people to buy a new copy? What incentive does a theoretical indie dev have? Again, this is the same industry that treats every "used" sale as a lost new sale, always has, and these used digital purchases are all but indistinguishable from a brand new one. Why would they go out of their way to cannibalize their own sales from their own stores by creating this ecosystem?
What incentive does GOG have with selling DRM-free games? If they research it and -IF- projections are more people are likely to buy their products if it's possible for them to recoup the cost by reselling the game when they're done with it, it's a win for everyone.

Let's say I'm an indie developer. I make a game, and I price it at 30 USD and I hope I'll sell 300k copies of it. That's 9 million revenue, of which 30% goes to Steam, so 6.3 million for me.

To make the same revenue I do on Steam but I self publish, I'd need to sell 210.000 copies of my game. Very unlikely without the power of Steam, AND I'd need to cover infrastructure costs like servers and a storefront.

If I make the game an NFT and I allow reselling where there is a 50/50 split when a user resells the game for let's say an average of 20 USD (so 10 USD for the seller, 10 USD for me), I don't need any servers. All I need is a way to link the NFT to a user on a blockchain and to verify the user each time he logs in to the game and check the NFT status linked to the user. Now I'd need to project how many people are likely to buy the game at full price and how many % of those people are likely to resell the game afterwards. Are more people likely to try my game because they can easily resell it and recoup 10 USD? How good is my game and how likely are they to resell it? Those are still open questions. But in any case, the treshold to reach profitability is already lower because I get 100% of the revenue of each new game sold, I get 50% of the revenue of each game resold and I don't have to upkeep a complicated storefront or keep any server infrastructure running. Will this get me beyond the 6.3million I would've gotten from Steam? I'm pretty sure any publishers not Valve is already doing the calculations.
 
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IMCaprica

Member
Aug 1, 2019
9,489
There's always a lot of "cryingbehindmask.jpg" energy from the NFT crowd whenever NFTs take an L, and I'm here for it.
 

Kenai

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,297
What logistical mess with selling an NFT? It doesn't cost the company anything to make one.

I am talking about the theoretical scenario of implementing ways to earn profit from a "used digital" game sale. The actual NFT creation isn't the problem, or at least it's not got this particular problem. Think about the thread we are in lol. This rando guy can suddenly sell all this stuff he just pirated. What does that mean for the "real owners"?

What incentive does GOG have with selling DRM-free games? If they research it and -IF- projections are more people are likely to buy their products if it's possible for them to recoup the cost by reselling the game when they're done with it, it's a win for everyone.

DRM-free games really aren't comparable at all? You'll have to explain why you're bringing that up. They aren't the same thing lol. We actually have a lot of data on the appeal of DRM-free games, and many examples over time of forced DRM games having said DRM removed due to backlash (the most famous recent ones I can think of is Sony's C-Bomb fiasco, or the original XBone). The industry is repeatedly trying to make used games sales harder to do, not easier.

If I make the game an NFT and I allow reselling where there is a 50/50 split when a user resells the game for let's say an average of 20 USD (so 10 USD for the seller, 10 USD for me), I don't need any servers. All I need is a way to link the NFT to a user on a blockchain and to verify the user each time he logs in to the game and check the NFT status linked to the user. Now I'd need to project how many people are likely to buy the game at full price and how many % of those people are likely to resell the game afterwards. Are more people likely to try my game because they can easily resell it and recoup 10 USD? How good is my game and how likely are they to resell it? Those are still open questions. But in any case, the treshold to reach profitability is already lower because I get 100% of the revenue of each new game sold, I get 50% of the revenue of each game resold and I don't have to upkeep a complicated storefront or keep any server infrastructure running. Will this get me beyond the 6.3million I would've gotten from Steam? I'm pretty sure any publishers not Valve is already doing the calculations.

Not to be mean but most of this is being extremely presumptuous. Again, we have a lot of data regarding pushback of the entire videogame industry to restrict the sale of used games available to us, and several articles are available with some quick Google searches.

www.cnet.com

How much do industry CEOs hate used games? A whole, whole lot

Silicon Knights chief Denis Dyack says that if used games continue to wreak havoc on the gaming business, "there's not going to be an industry."

techcrunch.com

Video game publishers complain (again) about used video game sales; GameStop defends practice (again) | TechCrunch

Help me out here, guys. I have zero sympathy for video game developers and publishers who cry poverty vis-à-vis used video game sales. At the same time, I have zero sympathy for the likes of GameStop, what with its hyperactive employees always trying to sell me some added nonsense, when it...

https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/mksc.2018.1142 (even a recent study from Google Scholar's database because the issue is so prevalent in discussions)


Always-on DRM, region-locks, pre-order exclusives and micro-transations (and more) are all correlated with this effort to minimize used game sales, so forgive me for being extremely skeptical that the industry is going to implement any of this technology as you describe, especially when (again) it's a lot of work and has the very "dangerous" scenario of cannibalizing their new game sales.