The shame of going to prison for being exposed as a violent criminal seems more intense than the shame caused by social media posts.
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Alec Holowka (Night in the Woods, TowerFall) accused of sexual assault [Update: Alec Holowka has reportedly passed away] [See staff posts/threadmarks]
- Thread starter TacomaSCDisaster
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The shame of going to prison for being exposed as a violent criminal seems more intense than the shame caused by social media posts.
It's obviously nonsense to suggest that these types of things should be banned from discussion on here. As others have pointed out, putting up a wall of silence is what's allowed this kind of toxic abuse culture to come about in the first place. However, I do believe actions should be taken to make sure these types of topics are talked about with the civility, levelheadedness and seriousness they deserve. For example, a strict policy against name-calling and insulting people (even alleged abusers) in these types of threads might be a good idea. Also against any posts that gleefully proclaim somebody's professional demise or turn the situation into some kind of spectacle. Basically, be supportive of the survivor and send good vibes their way, talk about the issue in a sober manner or stay out of the thread.
I understand this and agree 100%, same issue I have with politics where it's often treated more like a team sport and less like the complex set of issues it is. My comment was more at people who want to outright ban these discussions ie "keep politics out of video games" people. People get too emotional and say stupid, regrettable shit in all topics from horrible events like this to silly hype things like game announcements.
What a horrific situation, I hope Zoe and Alec's family are safe and can get through this.
This shouldn't be the time for blaming, we don't know the details and it's not really any of our business anyway.
This shouldn't be the time for blaming, we don't know the details and it's not really any of our business anyway.
huh, before reading this thread i had no idea that it was a psychological phenomena for victims of abuse to then inflict that abuse as well, it just doesn't make sense to me. i was sexually abused and never thought to do it to another because when it was done to me i didn't like it so why would i do it to someone else?
it's a damn shame tho, this just seems like its going to cause alot of hate and anger from everyone.
it's a damn shame tho, this just seems like its going to cause alot of hate and anger from everyone.
I do not know the answer. Perhaps prisons should be made better.
I understand that all of era was raised in a world of toxic masculinity where men shouldn't have mental health issues in the first place and it is hard to fully live your beliefs but in this instance, just like in Etika's, his traumas were ignored because he did/said shitty things. I believe Zoe and I believe other victims that come foreward, but I also believe that both were victims in this instance and it just sucks.
discussion of sensitive issues should not be banned because people need to learn SOMEWHERE how to behave regarding these topics
harsher penalties for those who poison the well in various ways would go a long way in helping
harsher penalties for those who poison the well in various ways would go a long way in helping
I feel for this man's family most of all; they're about to have a hell of a time of it if they dare to peak online in pretty much any corner in addition to losing a son.
Even if prisons are made better (and they should be, prisons in the US are so garbage that the most valuable witness in the United States was allowed to commit suicide), going to prison for this still involves getting outed as a violent criminal and sex criminal.
At the risk of generalizing, most people feel power taken from them when they are abused, and seek a way to regain power. You can regain power in a lot of ways, but one of them is to abuse others. It's horrible, but it is a well documented trend.
Typed and deleted three posts over the last couple hours. There's not a great way to discuss this online and I have no idea what I could contribute that wouldn't just be more meaningless noise. What he did is awful; his death is awful. This whole fucking thing is awful.
it's a touchy thing because, like, what alec did is horrible and should be condemned, and he should've faced the consequences of it, and zoe was justified in calling him out. and so there's plenty of people here just genuinely being sympathetic and supportive, and that's all great and should be encouraged. and there are of course broader conversations to be had about misogyny in the industry, abusers getting into positions of power, etc. there's plenty of stuff in this that's worth talking about, and that does necessitate a public discussion. and ideally, era should be the place for that! but it's not, because the culture of this forum does not foster reasonable discussion. straight-up.
like, there are already people replying to and talking about my post as if i'm saying victims shoudn't come forward and out their abusers, which is 3000% not what i'm saying at all, and it's perfectly emblematic of one of the many problems discourse on this site has. there's always people deliberately trying to misread a good-faith post in the worst possible way, to try to call them out on it in an attempt to score internet points.
the reason i think this stuff should be banned is not because it shouldn't be talked about, not because "I just wanna talk about vidya gaems without thinkin' bout stuff!", but because this forum simply cannot handle it. there's too much drive-by shitposting. there's too much needlessly hostile infighting. there's too many GG alt accounts trying to stir the pot. this forum is, frankly, a horrible place to discuss anything more complicated than video game news.
and frankly, i also take issue with the idea repeatedly posted in this thread that Alec was a "public figure", any more than anyone with any kind of public-facing job is a "public figure". i would strongly bet 99% of the posters in this thread had no idea who he was before this went down. this was a personal matter between private individuals that was only made public because Zoe felt she had to, because the unfortunate reality is that it's often difficult or impossible to make abusers face consequences otherwise. but just because it's public info doesn't mean we should consider it our place to pass personal judgment on the people involved. and inevitably i can already tell that this will be spun by someone to say "you're defending an abuser!!!!!" because of course they will. and yes, i suppose i am defending the idea that even abusers are human beings, and are often complicated people capable of both horrible and great things, and that it's possible to condemn his actions and think he did some heinous shit and also think posters calling him human garbage who should be thrown out to rot are being self-righteous, toxic assholes.
I dunno. at this point i'm just ranting really. this whole situation just fucking bums me out and angers me. i've been a fan of zoe since before GG even happened and it fucking sucks so bad that so much of her personal life is now used as fuel for internet trashfires. and i just really, really wish era would do better to not be another trashfire.
Yes, in that he may not be dead. Imprisonment isn't purely for punishment; it's for rehabilitation, too. There are trained professionals who can assist people like Alec, and allow them to serve their time and come out the other end as a better person. It's certainly better than the trial by social media that occurred and lead to this tragic end.
There's no winning here, but we need to continue to encourage those who are victims of abuse to come forward to the proper authorities at the time that it happens, so that due process can be taken and help (and retribution) can be given to both parties.
Absolutely. The administrators should genuinely consider this option.
Alex's sister, who posted the announcement tweet, has privated her Twitter account (thus causing the announcement message to become unavailable).
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To those wondering where the discourse is at: in addition to people harassing Zoe and blaming them for Alec's suicide, we have people harassing Alec's sister with shit like dancing on his grave, and calling her a traitor and horrible person for believing that Alec committed abuse.
It really is one of the worst possible endings. The victims don't get justice, Alec doesn't get the help he needed, and everyone who knows both parties is going to have to live with this for the rest of their lives.
I think this is a very good thread.
I think that there have been a lot of very heartening changes in how games communities handle allegations of abuse in the past few years. Maybe my bubble is just becoming more and more opaque, but I truly get the impression that the reception to those allegations is, by and large, becoming more patient, more credulous, and more compassionate. People who speak out are met with support and belief, and it feels like there's an increased expectation on people in positions in power to take steps to prevent and address abuse. I think it can be hard to understand what the material result of this increased expectation is, given how bound up these issues are in private relationships that aren't made public, but I feel—naively, maybe—that the trend is generally positive. That people are addressing and managing issues of interpersonal abuse with deserved nuance, care, and sensitivity.
That said, I think that there is a serious paucity of nuance and care in thinking, generally, of what comes after. What comes after for the victim of abuse who has made their experience known? What comes after for the peers of an abuser who are made to understand that they have—actively, passively, or through the privilege of ignorance—enabled abuse in their own way? What comes after for an abuser who feels sincere horror and sadness for the violence they've inflicted on another person?
This is not to say that these things are totally unaddressed. They aren't. I think people write and speak very eloquently on these subjects a lot in these moments of collective reflection and testification. However, I think there is a strong tendency to default to outdated and oppressive models of justice in thinking about this 'what comes after.' People who otherwise are against the carceral state, people who agree that all prisoners are political prisoners, and that all political prisoners must be freed, cite (real, horrifying) statistics about the justice system's bone-deep failings of people who experience interpersonal abuse, sometimes to the end of arguing that it would be ideal if abusers were 'adequately' captured and disappeared by the machinations of punitive carceral justice. Even though I absolutely agree that statistics about the underacknowledgement of domestic and sexual abuse are reflective of widespread social problems and the marginalization of women's rights, I don't think carceral justice is the way forward.
I think that thinking complexly, restoratively, about what abuse is and how it impacts a community requires thinking through new models of that 'what comes after' for all parties involved. I don't think this burden falls on any one person—certainly not on the person speaking out about their abuse, as I sometimes see argued. I think it is a collective problem that will require collective thinking. I hope to see more of that thinking, though, because I think it is essential to moving beyond palliative care, to substantially addressing and resolving the problems that cause and enable abuse.
That is just absolutely disgusting. Her brother just killed himself and she is getting abused?!
It should go without saying but people harassing his sister are so out of line. She didnt even deny that he committed abuse which even if she did she shouldnt be targeted with hateful comments
This is why I think Twitter needs to be shut down, or the comment/reply/@ system needs to be completely, utterly rethought from the ground up.
Right now, the only thing it's really good for is fanning flames into hellstorms.
But the issue is that any reporting of sex crimes and violent crime exposes their abuser as a violent sex criminal to the overall world. And the shame that goes along with that exposure is definitely still going to come if they go to prison.
You don't go to prison privately.
While I can't speak to sexual abuse, I can say I was emotionally neglected and verbally abused by my parents as a child. Nowadays, I struggle with abandonment and conflict. I get bouts of paranoid delusions about people conspiring against me, and when they get bad enough I can lash out and act horrible to people I care about. When I see friends fighting, I get extremely defensive and my responses have ranged from siding with one and attacking the other to nope-ing out of a friend group and declaring myself to be horrible and that I'm "protecting" them from me by leaving. Some of my reactions have been highly abusive, even though they were done in self defense as a result of CPTSD.
That being said, I cannot imagine how being abused would lead one to sexual abuse, but at a guess I'd say it has to do with maintaining a feeling of control? Doesn't excuse it in the slightest though.
what is wrong with society.... how on earth do people think and say things like that and can sleep at night... simply awful human beings
We have to have this trashfire if any progress it to be made. Every issue is worth talking about. You are obviously very thoughtful and have a lot of consideration for the situation but I feel like wishing era wouldn't become a trash-fire is the same as just wishing the world was a better place. Not talking about problems would be the same as just wishing they weren't there. I am not sayiign that is what you are advocating for. But how do you solve somehting when the problem is people? You just have to have better people, somehow.
Does he end up not being dead if he goes to prison?
Prisons are incredibly bad at stopping people from committing suicide and there would be a trial period which could have still have lead to him committing suicide.
Yeah, her account lockdown was probably because of this. I've been combing the comments for bad actors and there is a fucking lot of them. Reprehensible people.
Well she said in that post that she wasn't going to read the comments so hopefully this is all void shouting.
Twitter is the perfect service for letting people take those annoying, stupid, two-second thoughts of darkness that occasionally float through our heads and broadcast them, permanently, for all the world to see. Or to fire them directly at the people we're thinking about like guided missiles.
It's not perfect, but it's what we have in place in society currently, and is the best overall option for victims, who are the focus. For abusers, it's certainly less public than what occurred here. As Alec's sister said, he had been working towards getting the help he needed, but it still wasn't enough given the circumstances.
To be technically correct it wasn't proven, it was unofficially corroborated by other individuals online. Not trying to argue against you, just want to be clear.
What is the right place to talk about/expose this stuff? Many abuse/assault story's that come out tend to be "open secrets". The internet is usually not the first place these things are discussed. It's usually friends, family, coworkers. HR, police etc. Then victims get fed up and speak up. If they get that far. I'm 100 percent sure Zoe didn't want this result, but are victims supposed to keep quiet out of fear of the abusers rep/health?
This is incredibly saddening. It was clear from the beginning of this story that Alec was struggling with mental health, and it's very disappointing that he didn't feel there was space or opportunity to move on from the internet scandal.
I hate that defending victims is sometimes taken so far as to not accept anything but complete destruction of the abuser, when in fact it should be about recovering, and giving people the opportunity to redeem themselves.
I love what he did for Night in the Woods, and ultimately wish he had found a way past it, as a more calm individual. But sadly the internet can be cruel, especially when your mental stability isn't quite as strong as it could be. I'm super sad about it all.
I hate that defending victims is sometimes taken so far as to not accept anything but complete destruction of the abuser, when in fact it should be about recovering, and giving people the opportunity to redeem themselves.
I love what he did for Night in the Woods, and ultimately wish he had found a way past it, as a more calm individual. But sadly the internet can be cruel, especially when your mental stability isn't quite as strong as it could be. I'm super sad about it all.
Yeah I dont get the whole maybe if she had just accused him through the justice system no one would have ever found out and he wouldnt have killed himself. In fact it sounds like his mental issues were even worse back then.
There is a discussion to be had about the way random internet people talk about the accused or send over the top messages to them but any attempt to even slightly pin this on the victim is going to be met by me with suspicion
This is the most depressing possible episode I can imagine. I never wanted this to happen. My heart goes out to his family, and to his victims. I hope a tragedy like this never occurs again.
Excuse me? What part of my post made it seem like I wanted him to meet this kind of an end? All I wanted was for him to get some comeuppance, but I NEVER wanted anything like this at all. I'm someone who suffers from depression and suicide ideation myself. It's not something I wish on ANYONE. I know you're banned, but for when you're back, I just want you to know you can fuck right off.
I totally understand her for that. Zoe too. Neither deserves *this*.
Alec does not deserve to die yes....but him being thrown from the developer community, being marked unhirable, and honestly probably isolated and just not someone anyone wants to be around....can you say he does not deserve that? No, he deserves it, 100%, abusers need to be condemned and forced out. But let's not act like it's not supposed to be what it is, it's meant to be punishment, to be a warning to all the other abusers.
That he killed himself over it, should we be really surprised?
Perhaps it's time for a serious worldwide brainstorm about the value of the internet and how we can preserve what's good about it.
I just don't see any shame reduction if they actually go to prison for their crimes instead of just being posted about on social media. Mike Vick got imprisoned for dog fighting and didn't get called out for it on social media and that didn't really diminish the shame one bit really.
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