KennyLinder

Game Designer at EA
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
3,684
They should give the parents the support they want, including taking him to Italy if they think it will help. I can't imagine being in that situation with my daughter, I'd do everything in my power to save her life.

Gotta feel for the parents. Very sad case.
 

Broken Joystick

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,932
England
BBC Article for those who want to catch up.

Who is Alfie Evans?
Alfie was born to parents Tom Evans and Kate James, from Bootle in Merseyside, on 9 May 2016. He was first admitted to Alder Hey Children's Hospital in Liverpool in December 2016 after suffering seizures and has been a patient in the hospital ever since. Doctors diagnosed a degenerative neurological condition which they have not been able to identify definitively. Alfie's parents and the hospital have clashed over what should happen to Alfie, who has been in a semi-vegetative state for more than a year. His parents said they wanted to fly him to a hospital in Italy but this was blocked by Alder Hey, which said continuing treatment was "not in Alfie's best interests".

Why did his case go to court?
The Alder Hey Children's Hospital NHS Foundation Trust went to the High Court to seek a declaration that "continued ventilator support is not in Alfie's best interests and in the circumstances it is not lawful that such treatment continue". Sitting at the High Court in Liverpool, Mr Justice Hayden began overseeing the case on 19 December. Alder Hey said scans showed "catastrophic degradation of his brain tissue" and that further treatment was not only "futile" but also "unkind and inhumane". But his parents disagreed and wanted permission to fly him to the Bambino Gesu Hospital in Rome in the hope of prolonging his life. The Italian hospital, which has links to the Vatican, suggested operations to help Alfie breathe and keep him alive for an "undefined period". The judge said he would make a decision on what was best for Alfie if an agreement was not reached.

Who decides?
One of the dilemmas Alfie's case has raised is whether doctors are the right people to determine whether withdrawing life-support treatment is in "the best interests" of a terminally ill child. One of the key arguments presented by his parents was that they should decide what is best for their son. It was the same case made by the parents of Charlie Gard, the 11-month-old baby who died last year following a similar battle over his treatment. The law in the UK falls somewhere in-between. The 1989 Children's Act makes it clear that where a child is at risk of harm the state can and should intervene. This means that the rights of parents are not absolute and the state has been emboldened to challenge the view of parents where they believe a child's best interests are not being served. If a public body disagrees with the parents' choices, they must go to court in order to override this parental responsibility.
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
I understand the parents, but doctors in the UK primary concern is the patient.

From what I've read their child is brain dead. This is not the case of a coma, this is the case of in-repairable Brain Damage. Their child is suffering and the doctors are recommending the right thing.

It's fucking tragic and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. The Doctors are doing the right thing and the courts are too.
 

Geoff

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,115
They should give the parents the support they want, including taking him to Italy if they think it will help. I can't imagine being in that situation with my daughter, I'd do everything in my power to save her life.

Gotta feel for the parents. Very sad case.

I feel for the parents but if the doctors say he is suffering and there is no chance of recovery (his brain is almost gone) then their word ie the needs of the patient trumps the needs of the parents. The parents are fucking dicks. I had sympathy for them but the instant they disrupted other families whose children are suffering, they lost that.
 

Axe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,830
United Kingdom
The parents are in severe denial and need to let their son go. His brain is mostly destroyed, he has no chance of recovery whatsoever. Even the Italians have agreed with the prognosis, and haven't promised being able to provide anything other than end-of-life care.

As tragic as it is, there's nothing more that can be done. Moving Alfie to another location is a logistical challenge and risky endeavour (he may well die in transit), further complicated by the hostility the parents have whipped up with their abhorrent behaviour in recent days. The parents are going through a terrible situation, but it is absolutely unacceptable to incite hatred against medical staff and expose their identities with the intension of causing them distress. It's also incredibly selfish, as other patients are being treated at the hospital too, and the mob's actions are complicating treatment for those children.

I recommend everyone interested in the case read the judgement. There is extensive information on Alfie's exact medical condition. He has enough of his brainstem remaining to regulate his heart beat and allow him to breathe. He no longer has any capacity to think, feel, hear etc. as the majority of his brain has atrophied catastrophically.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/alder-hey-v-evans.pdf
 

Gibson

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,275
It's riling me up pretty bad.

The child is brain dead with no chance of recovery, yet these 'Alfies Army' mumpers are accusing the nurses of trying to murder the child when actually they are giving it palliative care, which is all that can be offered, either in the UK or Italy.

When they were blocking access to the hospital the other day anyone with an ounce of intelligence should have realized they are doing more damage to the child (and other patients at the hospital) by kicking up such a fuss. The parents are selfish idiots, in my opinion.
 
Oct 30, 2017
13,326
Your Imagination
The parents are in severe denial and need to let their son go. His brain is mostly destroyed, he has no chance of recovery whatsoever. Even the Italians have agreed with the prognosis, and haven't promised being able to provide anything other than end-of-life care.

As tragic as it is, there's nothing more that can be done. Moving Alfie to another location is a logistical challenge and risky endeavour (he may well die in transit), further complicated by the hostility the parents have whipped up with their abhorrent behaviour in recent days. The parents are going through a terrible situation, but it is absolutely unacceptable to incite hatred against medical staff and expose their identities with the intension of causing them distress. It's also incredibly selfish, as other patients are being treated at the hospital too, and the mob's actions are complicating treatment for those children.

I recommend everyone interested in the case read the judgement. There is extension information on Alfie's exact medical condition. He has enough of his brainstem remaining to regulate his heart beat and allow him to breathe. He no longer has any capacity to think, feel, hear etc. as the majority of his brain has atrophied catastrophically.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/alder-hey-v-evans.pdf
Completely agree. It's a sad situation all around that sadly now is being selfishly extended by religious parents who refuse to let go.
 

ham bone

Alt account
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
732
I don't want any controversy but how is the infant suffering? Is it experiencing pain?
 

Scousefury

Member
Oct 28, 2017
680
I live round the corner from Alder Hey, what is going on there is a disgrace. The parents need to except the situation, the doctors have given their opinion, the courts have ruled on the case, it's over, just care for your child, don't fly to fucking Rome to see Pope, get off the TV, stop doing interviews, stop being twats. And as for the cesspool outside of Alder Hey.... just fuck off you cunts.
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,324
I'm conflicted. As an outsider I think the doctors etc are much better placed to decide what's best for the child and they need to do what's best for him even if that means allowing him to pass on.

However, as a father myself I would likely be doing the same as the parents and fighting for every possible chance I could see no matter what evidence I was presented to the contrary.

It's heartbreaking to be honest.

Though I do wish people with no vested interest in the case would butt out and stop protesting the hospital. Do these idiots genuinely think that the hospital team haven't tried everything within their power to help the child and his family and that their views are somehow pertinent?!
 

liquidtmd

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,171
It's riling me up pretty bad.

The child is brain dead with no chance of recovery, yet these 'Alfies Army' mumpers are accusing the nurses of trying to murder the child when actually they are giving it palliative care, which is all that can be offered, either in the UK or Italy.

When they were blocking access to the hospital the other day anyone with an ounce of intelligence should have realized they are doing more damage to the child (and other patients at the hospital) by kicking up such a fuss. The parents are selfish idiots, in my opinion.

Agree with this upto the point of calling the parents selfish idiots. They are drowning in emotional conflict and turmoil and whether I agree with their take or not, they are in a hell of a position.

Fuck the 'Alfie's Army' though and parts of the media for stirring the pot. So much 'what the hell do doctors know, we have the power of love behind us' rhetoric.

The doctors aren't doing this to be anal or argumentative for Christ sakes
 

Geoff

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,115
It goes without saying that "Alfie's Army" is composed of illiterate morons (I was going to say 'brain-dead' but decided probably not appropriate) - it's exactly the kind of misguided revolt against perceived authority and the rejection of expert analysis in favour of uninformed facebook conspiracy memes that led to brexit.

Of course the medical staff are trying to murder this child. Of course they are. Idiots.
 
Oct 27, 2017
983
I feel sorry for the parents, but they mistakenly believe that the Alfie belongs to them. He does not belong to them, and he is under the care of the medical staff at Alder Hey. They have a duty of care to act in his best interest, and there is no point in continuing to keep him alive on a life support machine. He has been brain dead for a significant amount of time and is in a vegetated state with 0% chance of recovering. Other people above have outlined just how dire and beyond recovery Alfie is. Keeping him alive in the state he is in is pointless and the parents are now in complete denial of the facts.

Furthermore the way they and their supporters have behaved at Alder Hey is absolutely disgusting and they should be ashamed for harassing and attacking the medical staff there, and upsetting and intimidating other children who are patients there.
 

Amalthea

Member
Dec 22, 2017
5,754
It's uncertain whether Alfie can feel pain. Since there is no guarantee that he cannot, the doctors have to assume that it is the case that he can and they must act accordingly.
I'd say if he feels nothing anymore he's practically dead, if he still feels most they can induce is pain with surgeries, infusions and respiratory machines.

I can feel the pain of parents loosing their child but at some point it starts becoming selfish denial on their part.
 

Jam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,072
I absolutely despise the media frenzy surrounding this case - they have absolutely vilified the hospital, staff and the courts.

It is frankly disgusting. I feel for Alfie's parents, I honestly do - losing your child in this manner is unfathomable but at the same time they need to accept the situation. This whole going to Rome plan just delays the inevitable, it makes life harder for Alfie and he may well die en-route without proper end of life care.

I'm not going to blame the parents, I'm going to blame 'Alfie's army' and the Media for basically turning the parents into a puppet and pushing them to act this way.
 

Axe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,830
United Kingdom
I'm not going to blame the parents, I'm going to blame 'Alfie's army' and the Media for basically turning the parents into a puppet and pushing them to act this way.
I'd say that was more the case for the Charlie Gard case. In this case, Alfie Evans's father seems to be a thug who has escalated the situation dramatically on his own initiative (of course the other parties haven't helped either). He seems to be rather unstable at the moment, and I genuinely fear what he might do when his son passes away.
 

ham bone

Alt account
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
732
It's uncertain whether Alfie can feel pain. Since there is no guarantee that he cannot, the doctors have to assume that it is the case that he can and they must act accordingly.

From what I've read in the past 10 minutes that's not really true. This case seems to be about keeping a brain dead infant on life support. Alfie does not seem to be in pain.

This American Life covered a couple who gave birth to an infant with a mitochondrial disease. They were told the child would not live past 3 but they raised him just the same. I find nothing wrong with caring for, nurturing, and loving a child you know will never see walk. Unless Alfie is in pain I say the parents should be allowed to savor every moment with him.
 

Gibson

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,275
Agree with this upto the point of calling the parents selfish idiots. They are drowning in emotional conflict and turmoil and whether I agree with their take or not, they are in a hell of a position.

Fuck the 'Alfie's Army' though and parts of the media for stirring the pot. So much 'what the hell do doctors know, we have the power of love behind us' rhetoric.

The doctors aren't doing this to be anal or argumentative for Christ sakes

I empathize with the parents of course, but they are a big proponent of the 'Alfies Army' circus, they keep fanning the flames to outrage people and for me that's where they become selfish, because they've clearly not given a thought for any of the medical staff or other patients at the hospital.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,848
From what I've read in the past 10 minutes that's not really true. This case seems to be about keeping a brain dead infant on life support. Alfie does not seem to be in pain.

What may be observed in terms of responses and what he's feeling, to any extent he can feel, may be two different things though? I don't know obviously, I'm not an expert. From what I've read he may be feeling pain but we just don't know.

If he's not suffering I would tend to agree the parents should be allowed maintain treatment, but the hospital and the courts have erred on the side of caution.

Anyway, it is a desperate and desperately sad case. However any disruption of the hospital, intimidation of staff or others there, characterisation of staff as murderers etc...if that's going on, and the parents have any hand in it, it is a disgrace.
 

Deleted member 18951

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,531
It's a really emotive topic in my office and people are genuinely getting upset and angry about it. Unfortunately I don't think most of us are aware of all of the facts. This was a really good thread I saw on Twitter yesterday.



Its just a horrible horrible situation for everyone and I cant see a good outcome for anyone.
 

dennett316

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,012
Blackpool, UK
On one hand, I feel for the parents....slightly (lessening every day). On the other, I feel they've stoked the fires a LOT with their statements, including directly encouraging people to protest outside a busy children's hospital. I know grief is awful, but their public appearances, getting photo ops with the Pope, calling the doctors murderers and the like...I'm sorry, it feels like they're making it more about them than the welfare of their son.
They've stated recently that they're keeping him alive by giving him mouth to mouth since he's been taken off the breathing machines, and then throwing the nurses under the bus by saying that's what THEY should be doing, while also intimating that the medical teams are now trying to starve him to death. They've gone beyond grief here, they're straight up stoking the fires of public sentiment with these statements.

Lost in all this is the fact this poor little boy has had his short life turned into a circus, any and all dignity stripped away. They've posted pictures of his eyes open to prove he's alive, but you can see there's nothing behind those eyes in those shots. They've posed him as if he's hugging them, every twitch or tic is spoken of as if it's conscious on their son's part...it's awful to see. I get that grief can make us act irrationally, but this has gone beyond that.
 

Jam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,072
From what I've read in the past 10 minutes that's not really true. This case seems to be about keeping a brain dead infant on life support. Alfie does not seem to be in pain.

This American Life covered a couple who gave birth to an infant with a mitochondrial disease. They were told the child would not live past 3 but they raised him just the same. I find nothing wrong with caring for, nurturing, and loving a child you know will never see walk. Unless Alfie is in pain I say the parents should be allowed to savor every moment with him.

He has been kept alive for 18 months - Alfie is figuratively dead, and there is zero chance of recovery or any sort of improvement. This is selfishness on behalf of the parents.

I do feel for them, but at the same time Alfie should be put on end of life and not kept 'alive' for the virtue of Parents not wanting to let go.
 

Ianan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
86
Liverpool
I feel terrible for the parents, but they are seriously in-denial and need to let go and begin to accept the situation.
I live not too far from Alder Hey (The Hospital in which Alfie is a patient of) and the scenes outside there are absolutely insane. The protestors need to get the hell off the Hospital grounds and stop disrupting the peace.
 

Geoff

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,115
I feel terrible for the parents, but they are seriously in-denial and need to let go and begin to accept the situation.
I live not too far from Alder Hey (The Hospital in which Alfie is a patient of) and the scenes outside there are absolutely insane. The protestors need to get the hell off the Hospital grounds and stop disrupting the peace.

I heard that they were blocking the road and forcing cars to 'honk for Alfie' before letting them through - outside a fucking hospital! Is that true?
 

Blue Lou

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,479
Has anybody else been keeping up ?

Alfie was born in May 2016 to teenage parents - their first child. He was admitted to a children's hospital after a seizure. At six months old, he was functioning in a range appropriate to a six- to eight-week-old baby. In November 2016, he was given a MRI scan and results shown "abnormalities, including, the possible diagnosis of a mitochondrial disorder". He was put in an Intensive Care Unit in December after his conditions worsened. He had become unwell with "bilateral pneumonia" which he recovered from in January 2017. Court documents say "he showed no response to tactile, visual, auditory or sensory stimulation" and described his EEG and clinical presentation as "grim".

One judge believes that Alfie's recovery from pneumonia is viewed by his father as potential for further recovery.

A third MRI scan was taken in August 2017 revealed that "70% of Alfie's brain had been destroyed".

He had remained on a ventilator since December 2016. The hospital sought to have it turned off after a year but were denied permission from the family and so had to get permission from the courts.

A fourth MRI scan taken in February 2018 "scan showed the almost total destruction of Alfie's brain, with fluid identical to water or CSF now present where brain matter should be."

Alfie wasn't reacting to anticonvulsant treatment and an independent London-based specialist said his brain was beyond recovery. She also said "even if Alfie is able to sustain respiration in the short term, on discontinuing ventilation his respiratory effect will not sustain life."

The high court ruled that the ventilator could be switched off, it was done so this week after several failed appeals from the family.

Rome

Alfie's father wants to take Alfie to the Bambino Gesù Hospital in Rome. Three doctors from the hospital in Rome flown to Liverpool and assessed the child. The judge wrote 'They too agreed that Alfie had a neurodegenerative disease and fitting disorder which was untreatable. They agreed that even if further testing were carried out, it would not provide a cure or, "bring a different treatment plan." Nowhere in their report was it suggested that it would be in Alfie's best interests for ventilation to be continued."

Their report stated:

"It is possible that during travel Alfie may present continuous seizures due to stimulations related to the transportation and flight: these seizures might induce further damage to (the) brain, being the whole procedure of transportation at risk."
For his part, the father is clinging to the use of the word "may" and wants to take his son to Italy.

Best Interests

The family's representative put forward their case during appeal. It included words:

(iii) Alfie's best interests are irrelevant to the arguments now being advanced on behalf of the parents. The parents views and wishes "trump" Alfie's best interests because, as his parents, they are entitled to make decisions for him even if, as we have said, what is proposed is inimical to his best interests;​

and

(iv) Alfie is being unlawfully detained in hospital. This is in breach both of common law rights and under Article 5 of the ECHR. The legal action available to remedy this wrong, as of right, is a writ of habeas corpus. Alfie is being detained because he is not being permitted to "self-discharge" and/or because his parents are not being permitted to remove him from the hospital. This is unlawful because nobody, not even the courts, are entitled to stop the parents acting as they wish in respect of Alfie.​

Air Ambulance

A German doctor snuck in to the hospital posing as a family member to assess the child. He provided a "fit to fly" certificate. It later emerged that he hadn't been fully informed of the circumstances.

"Dr Hubner's statement began with an assertion that he had seen all of Alfie's files, whereas in reality he had seen very little. As the judge put it, "most alarmingly" Dr Hubner's travel plan for Alfie suggested the use of anticonvulsant medication which, on the basis of Alder Hey's experience with Alfie, would have been both ineffective and inappropriate."​

Christian Legal Centre

The Christian Legal Centre wrote to the family urging them to remove Alfie from the hospital and told them they had the legal right to do so.

A distressed father then called for people to turn up at the hospital in support.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0JbYKNSJDg

It wasn't accurate and was later found to be prepared by someone without a legal qualification.

The same group also releases press releases which contain legally sensitive information (specifically, the time at which the ventilation machine would be switched off) to American Catholic media organisations.

Somewhere along the way, they also managed to get the father an audience with the Pope.

Private prosecution


The father threatened to bring a private prosecution against three doctors and a hospital ward manager where he was being treated for "conspirary to murder". In a video on Facebook, he said he had "filed" it.

The Times (of London) say it was co-prepared by a London-based Russian historian, law student and The Spectator contributor, Pavel Stroilov.

A High Court judge said it was "littered with vituperation and bile".

Italian citizenship

Two Italian politicians managed to get Alfie Italian citizenship. They hoped that it would help Alfie access Rome.

Hospital supporters

Supporters protested outside of the hospital after a failed appeal. They brought a bouncy castle, scrambler bikes where people would do tricks. Others would refuse to let people pass on the nearby dual carriageway unless they beeped their vehicle in support of Alfie.

Supporters of the family attempted to storm the hospital where he was being treated but were prevented from doing so by police. This happened after the European Court of Human Rights did not find any instance where humans right had been breached.

The family have distanced themselves from this behaviour

Pro-life activists

Mary Holmes, their [previous(?)] lawyer, accused "pro-life" activists of exploiting the couple: "These people I don't believe are in it because they love Alfie. When this case is over they'll move on to the next. Or they'll find some other cause they can ride on the back of. I just think they pick on the vulnerable and they are easy prey."
The lawyer claimed that the activists were intending to "keep this child alive at any cost and not for the right reasons". She added: "It's getting them in the public eye — it's like, we've got involved, look what we've done, we've got an audience with the Pope."

Ms Holmes said Mr Evans was just a "desperate young man, and Kate's this desperate young woman" who were willing to turn to anyone who purported to offer hope. Ms Holmes does not believe that Christian Concern's views on abortion and homosexuality represent the views of the couple.

-----------------

Last night, representatives once more wanted to take Alfie to Italy, their case was rejected. There's apparently going to be another appeal at the Court of Appeal.
 
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Gibson

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,275
Read any FB comments about this and it's just a mess of vitriol and fierce anti-intellectual garbage accusing the doctors of not being any kind of authority on the matter (or it being a cover up so they can harvest the child's organs), or accusing the nurses of wanting to kill the child using a lethal injection.

This 'post-truth' social media led world is really depressing sometimes.
 
OP
OP
Norwegian_Imposter

Norwegian_Imposter

Circumventing a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,757
I think what is rubbing me up the wrong way is the parents. It's alright wanting to spend more time with your son but when you start personal attack's on the hospital staff livelihood then you have lost any and all sympathy.
 

Ianan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
86
Liverpool
I heard that they were blocking the road and forcing cars to 'honk for Alfie' before letting them through - outside a fucking hospital! Is that true?

I can't say for sure about those specific claims, but a lot of that has been going on.

Video:
Protestors attempt to storm the hospital
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43867132

Video:
Scenes outside the hospital with the protestors blocking the road and abusing passers.
http://metro.co.uk/video/alfie-evans-protest-mob-block-road-outside-hospital-1674996/?ito=vjs-link

These protestors a bunch of idiots and a disgrace to the memory of this boy.
 
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Dan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,977
Unfortunately the one thing that has to be mentioned here is that religion, and Christian belief has been in play here. It seems that the Parents have rejected all medical advise given by Alder Hay and have resorted to Prayer, and the Pope's blessing to heal their son... They want to take their son to Italy for "treatment", and the Italian government has apparently tried to give the boy Italian Citizenship. I am half Italian, and have seen the state of health care there and I both feel uncomfortable that the Church has interfered in this way, and that the Italian system is no match for his current level of care.

The moment you get demonstrations outside a hospital is the moment you lose all public opinion imo. I feel for the other parents and patients in that hospital - but it's clear in this case that the professionals have given their assessment of the survival of the child and the courts have agreed. The parents need to accept this and let their son pass in a dignified way - and what is going on is not it.
 
Oct 31, 2017
10,161
It's understandable that the parents behave in an illogical manner given their trauma. The hangers on who are abusing the hospital staff and so forth are scum though.
 

Blue Lou

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,479
Thanks, Mod. I put together a fairly detailed post but was beaten to thread creation. I asked for the threads to be merged. What would have been my topic is now at post #33, #36 and #37.
 

Teddy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,302
This has been in the local news for a while, I feel for the parents but they need to let their son die and just move on with their lives. The little boy they could have had died long ago and all that is left is his body.

Blue Lou your post is fantastic and gives a lot of detail for those who may not know of the case.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
The parents are illogical, probably because of their trauma, and need mental help. The people rioting and trying to protest by barging into hospitals are downright fucking insane.

The kid was never going to recover, the best thing available to him was nothing more than a small life extension, and that amounts to longer torture.
 

FUME5

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,421
Experts have given their opinion, we don't allow parents to continue doing something that has been considered abuse in any other circumstances.