signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,451

AMNC4Ur.png


Many more American homes will have surveillance devices after this year's Amazon Prime Day sale.

As a promotion during its 36-hour Prime shopping event, the e-commerce giant is selling its Ring video doorbell and other Ring surveillance products at steep discounts — about 50 percent off, depending on the package. After the first day of Prime sales, Amazon's Ring doorbell was a bestseller among Amazon devices and electronics overall on what has historically been the company's biggest sales day.

Quite like how Amazon's killer Prime Day deals on Echo smart speakers have encouraged people to put more than 100 million artificially intelligent Alexa devices in their homes, the company's push to sell Ring devices could lead to a more widespread embrace of what I've referred to as fear-based social media.
Ring, and its attendant app, Neighbors, let people in a given community report crimes and share footage of those crimes — often people stealing Amazon packages — that they collect via their Amazon Ring video cameras. In practice, that means a lot of reports of "suspicious" brown people on porches and a general perception that the world is a scarier place than it is.

At Fortune's Brainstorm Tech conference Monday, Ring founder Jamie Siminoff responded to criticism that Ring products spread racism and paranoia by touting the company's "moderators with extensive training" and community guidelines that prohibit racial profiling and discrimination.
But people of color are still disproportionally featured in Ring videos of "crimes," and racist language describing alleged criminals is commonplace, especially in the comments on the Neighbors app. Ring and Neighbors users are also encouraged to share the videos with law enforcement, a practice that can exacerbate dangerous interactions with police among people of color.

As Steven Renderos, senior campaigns director at the Center for Media Justice, previously told me, "These apps are not the definitive guides to crime in a neighborhood — it is merely a reflection of people's own bias, which criminalizes people of color, the unhoused, and other marginalized communities."
It's also bad for the mental health of the people who own the devices. Since these apps focus on crime nearby, it can feel like there's more imminent danger than there really is. Indeed, Americans perceive crime to be going up even as national statistics from the FBI and the Bureau of Justice Statistics show crime rates are declining. Earlier this month, Vice reported on an Amazon PR stunt in which the company collaborated with police departments to set up useless sting operations to catch people stealing Amazon goods.

In the end, it only really helped Amazon.

"If customers fear their neighbors, and fear they might steal a package, customers are less likely to be mad at Amazon if they don't get a package they ordered," Vice reporter Caroline Haskins wrote. "They're also more likely to buy an Amazon-owned Ring doorbell camera, which is marketed as a way of surveilling your stoop for package deliveries and package thieves."
Amazon has been leaning heavily into surveillance tech lately, but as Medium's Will Oremus recently wrote, the company is simultaneously "disclaiming responsibility for how its technology is used, and dismissing concerns raised by academics, the media, politicians, and its own employees."

Indeed, earlier this year at Recode's Code Conference, Amazon Web Services CEO Andy Jassy likened the company's controversial facial recognition tech, Rekognition, to any other tool, like a knife, that could be used for ill. (A Ring spokesperson told Recode that it does not use facial recognition technology, nor does it work with Rekognition.)


Also
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,568
Yep, like the articles said, Amazon has been pushing fear and boy isn't it convenient they have a cheap solution.

We're giving up so much because advertisements get us. And they're advertising fear.
 

Wate

Member
May 22, 2019
124
Someday Amazon is going to be flying camera drones around the streets to monitor everyone's behaviour, and giving additional prime discounts to people with high social credit scores.
 

wenis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,182
Turns out the surveillance state future didn't need government intervention to succeed.
 

kazinova

Member
Oct 27, 2017
949
Ah, I was waiting for the article that would tell me that my tech-purchase is actually sinful. Glorious.

It's not that I like cool tech, and it was discounted, it's that I'm afraid. Got it.
 

cHaotix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
427
no amazon or google devices in my house except my phone and it's going to stay that way.
 

des0lar

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
187
Ah, I was waiting for the article that would tell me that my tech-purchase is actually sinful. Glorious.

It's not that I like cool tech, and it was discounted, it's that I'm afraid. Got it.
I'll never get posts like these. Instead of thinking about the larger social implications, you choose to make it all about you and feel personally attacked.
Why?
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,792
Smart home is a dumb idea as far as I am concerned. My phone is bad enough, but at least i cant shut it off and put it into another room if I'm that worried about it.

Spyware in your home or having to do stuff manually? That is a real tough one! Lol

Edited my post, was a bit condescending
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,536
This headline is either ridiculous or duplicitous. Duplicitous because Vox's consumer electronics site, The Verge, has been promoting, reviewing, and recommending "fear-based surveillance products" since its inception... Literally smart home tech is one of the biggest things they focus on The Verge or on Circuit Breaker -- their electronics product recommendation site. And ridiculous because they're targeting Amazon Prime Day for ushering in a new wave of surveillance ... when Prime Day is just a sale, that's it. A lot of the writers at The Verge came from Engadget, and Engadget similarly has been promoting and profiting off of smart home surveillance technology for like a decade.

Not to mention Vox has referral links for every product all over it's website to Amazon and that's a major source of revenue.

It's not just that they're hypocrites, it's that they're wrong with the motivations of these products for most of their visitors. First, surveillance home technology is nothing new, it's been a popular consumer electronics product for decades... both cameras, security lights, home alarm systems, advanced locking mechanisms, automatic light systems, everything else. What is new is these devices communicating back to a hub or a network, but this is technology that The Verge, Engadget, and the other consumer tech sites have been promoting for over a decade and continue to promote today.

I'm so tired of tech brands who have been promoting surveillance technology for YEARS and continue to do so today who are now throwing up all of these warnings about it because a brilliant person finally coined the term 'Surveillance Capitalism' (although not strictly about home surveillance technology, but more the tech revenue model... which is also the revenue/break even model of this website). They want to have it both ways.

I bought one of those Yale Smart Locks yesterday, not because of surveillance or fear but because of convenience. We're buying a new house, swapping out the locks per usual, and I've always wanted to have keyless entry. The other tangential benefits of giving my dog sitter or extended family access is a plus to me. That I can see whose coming and going is really not important to me because it's just me and my wife.


Vox:

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Also Vox:

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Landy828

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,565
Clemson, SC
I'm not afraid of any of these devices and I didn't buy any of them out of fear. I didn't buy the ring doorbell, but I've considered it simply due to how much we get delivered to our house a week and I like the idea of being able to speak to someone at my door due to me literally working 12-14 hour days away from home.

I got an Amazon Fire Stick, Voice Remote, and Gen 3 Echo Dot for a TOTAL of $7.50. Great deal...and we'll happily use them. Been using Gen 2 devices in our kids' rooms as music players and alarms to help my older daughter with ADD to remember to do things she forgets.
 
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Theef

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 3, 2017
755
I buy my google home stuff for convenience and fun, not out of fear.
 

RetroMG

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,829
I can't speak to the larger social implications, but I bought mine because I get a lot of solicitors in my neighborhood, and I want to be able to avoid them.
 

SaberVS7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's been noticing that these Blink Camera ads have had a bit of an obvious Racist undertone to them when I hear them on the radio.

And shit, the TV ads are outright xenophobic to me as well with the way it paints anyone "from outside the neighborhood" as suspect.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,536
I'll never get posts like these. Instead of thinking about the larger social implications, you choose to make it all about you and feel personally attacked.
Why?

I think it's a little rich for a site that continues to widely promote and profit off of surveillance smart home technology to also tell us that it's ushering in a new wave of fear-based social media.

The thesis also either just isn't correct, or it's nuanced enough to not be a good point. We all carry surveillance technology in our pockets, walking around with bite-sized 4K recording devices ... And those devices have helped highlight and shine a light on injustice against minorities and people of color. The "walking while black" "starbucks while black," etc blatant racism has always existed, but now the targets of that racism carry surveillance devices in their pockets that can upload these activities to social media immediately. Some people like police may think that's a bad thing, they don't want their activity to be uploaded to YouTube, but it's at least a nuanced argument, not clearly black and white negative like Vox (which I remind eevrybody is currently promoting these devices on their homepages) is suggesting here.
 
OP
OP
signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,451
It's not just that they're hypocrites, it's that they're wrong with the motivations of these products for most of their visitors. First, surveillance home technology is nothing new, it's been a popular consumer electronics product for decades... both cameras, security lights, home alarm systems, advanced locking mechanisms, automatic light systems, everything else. What is new is these devices communicating back to a hub or a network, but this is technology that The Verge, Engadget, and the other consumer tech sites have been promoting for over a decade and continue to promote today.
No real problem with your critiques of the sites, but you're ignoring the "social media" part of the title, referring to the apps mentioned in the article. Unless people have previously had neighbourhood meetings to exchange their security camera footage and home alarm metrics, that's not somethiing that's been around for decades.
 

whitehawk

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,452
Canada
Smart home is a dumb idea as far as I am concerned. My phone is bad enough, but at least i cant shut it off and put it into another room if I'm that worried about it.

Spyware in your home or having to do stuff manually? That is a real tough one! Lol

Edited my post, was a bit condescending
meh. I have 5 lights in my room and I turn them all off with my voice when I head out. I love my Google home.
 

Violence Jack

Drive-in Mutant
Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,606
Of the year that I've been using a Ring doorbell (previous homeowners left it as a gift for us), I've never seen any neighbor reports about brown people, but a lot of packages being stolen, solicitors, and wanting to call the police on people parked outside of their homes. But I could definitely understand the concern with trigger happy cops being called on a brown person that might be walking their dog or something.
 
Oct 27, 2017
43,210
I'll never get posts like these. Instead of thinking about the larger social implications, you choose to make it all about you and feel personally attacked.
Why?
Because it's not a strong argument. People buying security tech that's been heavily discounted doesn't suggest anything other than that people buy things when they're heavily discounted and promoted. People largely, as in overwhelmingly, don't have security systems. Yeah, they disproportionately affect minorities, but they're not remotely widespread enough for it to be a widespread issue.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,536
No real problem with your critiques of the sites, but you're ignoring the "social media" part of the title, referring to the apps mentioned in the article. Unless people have previously had neighbourhood meetings to exchange their security camera footage and home alarm metrics, that's not somethiing that's been around for decades.

For sure, social media does put a different lens on surveillance technology, just as it puts a different lens on activism or the rise in perception of injustice. Prior to to the prevalence and ubiquity of social media, it was very difficult for video evidence of police brutality against black people to be widely shared... You had Rodney King, Civil rights protests, and a handful of prominent events in the last ~60 years showcasing this. And then Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube become ubiquitous and there's a new viral video reaching millions of people every week about how systemic and overt racism is still a major problem. I'm a deep critic of social media, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube especially (and twitter to a lesser degree because it's just so dumb) but it's not as clear cut as Vox is portraying here.... And I think that's why they're comfortable promoting surveillance capitalism (not to mention, surveillance capitalism is Vox's primary income stream).
 

NervousXtian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,503
Love my echos, and love turning off my lights by voice in the house.. love being able to change the thermostat by voice.. have a wireless speaker I can turn Spotify on around the house.

If they want to listen to me, feel free.. don't care. Also article is clickbait to the extreme. Cameras and home surveillance isn't something started on Prime day.. and it's something they promote all year through their tech articles.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
I don't have a Ring doorbell but I downloaded the app and it's full of old people posting videos and being alarmed when anybody even walks in front of their house.
 
OP
OP
signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,451
For sure, social media does put a different lens on surveillance technology, just as it puts a different lens on activism or the rise in perception of injustice. Prior to to the prevalence and ubiquity of social media, it was very difficult for video evidence of police brutality against black people to be widely shared... You had Rodney King, Civil rights protests, and a handful of prominent events in the last ~60 years showcasing this. And then Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube become ubiquitous and there's a new viral video reaching millions of people every week about how systemic and overt racism is still a major problem. I'm a deep critic of social media, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube especially (and twitter to a lesser degree because it's just so dumb) but it's not as clear cut as Vox is portraying here.... And I think that's why they're comfortable promoting surveillance capitalism (not to mention, surveillance capitalism is Vox's primary income stream).
I agree it's a bit hyperbolic, though without looking into it much, the idea of a local social network app where neighbours talk about what they've been seeing sounds like something I wouldn't want to be a part of lol. Though depending on where you live, maybe it ranges from awful to terrific.

I don't have a Ring doorbell but I downloaded the app and it's full of old people posting videos and being alarmed when anybody even walks in front of their house.
This sounds funny. Interested now.
 

IAMtheFMan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,039
Chicago
I've partially smartified my house, mainly just for convenience rather than security.

- We have an Arlo system, but we use this more as a "baby/toddler monitor;" it's a big house and if the baby is crying or something, we wouldn't be able to hear it
- We have a Ring, but this is again the same deal; see visitors and talk to them when we may not be able to get to them quickly
- I plan on getting smart lights for lighting my entertainment area.

That's about it. No echos, or apple devices, or whatever. It is kinda nuts how far out you can go with the security stuff.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,494
I've partially smartified my house, mainly just for convenience rather than security.

- We have an Arlo system, but we use this more as a "baby/toddler monitor;" it's a big house and if the baby is crying or something, we wouldn't be able to hear it
- We have a Ring, but this is again the same deal; see visitors and talk to them when we may not be able to get to them quickly
- I plan on getting smart lights for lighting my entertainment area.

That's about it. No echos, or apple devices, or whatever. It is kinda nuts how far out you can go with the security stuff.
Yep same with us. A lot of my stuff is just a bunch of sensors (mainly light) to automatically turn on lights at night or during the day if it gets dark outside
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,536
I agree it's a bit hyperbolic, though without looking into it much, the idea of a local social network app where neighbours talk about what they've been seeing sounds like something I wouldn't want to be a part of lol. Though depending on where you live, maybe it ranges from awful to terrific.

yeah, I signed up for NextDoor back when it came out in my neighborhood... not really sure what it was. And then I realized it was like Facebook but exclusively people who take Centrum Silver every day.

I think there is some subtly on the positives and negatives of surveillance. On one hand, neighborhood watch groups have likely always targeted minorities and non-white or non-majority people doing "non-normative" things, and now surveillance technology gives us video evidence that "Those nefarious blacks loitering outside my house!" are actually just normal kids walking their dog, or waiting for the bus, or "doing X while black." That's a side benefit of everyone having a surveillance device in their pocket, but obviously it also comes at a cost of perceived individual liberty and freedom from surveillance.
 

ReAxion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,882
at no point should they look in to how many people that are already on nextdoor that bought any of these devices!!!
 

Jeronimo

Member
Nov 16, 2017
2,379
We have had an alarm system and cameras (Blink, not Ring) for protection and monitoring (also to keep neighbors' dogs off our yard) almost since we bought our own home since the costs were reasonable. Our smart devices are for convenience, mostly light and climate control, and scheduling. None of them were purchased in reaction to fear mongering.

The paranoia on Neighbors and NextDoor can be ridiculous but it's the people, not the products.
 
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Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,326
I like my Ring doorbell, but the app and the Neighborhoods reporting functionality is a trash fire with people posting video of anyone that walks up to their door and knocks or rings the doorbell. A good deal of it is normal racist crap of "Oh no, a POC!!!!" BS, but anyone that looks "working class" or is obviously a solicitor also gets caught up in it. I wish I could deactivate that entire functionality of the app and just have access to my video feeds. It's one reason I may replace my Ring with a Simplisafe doorbell (for integration with my security system app). It would have none of that alarmist BS tied to it.

Similarly though, there are people that comment on those posts saying "This is just someone making a living or doing their job," so some people do attempt to be voices of reason. I just try and ignore it all together.

However, Amazon doesn't need to put Ring products on sale for this to happen, the app is usable by anyone I believe.
 

kazinova

Member
Oct 27, 2017
949
I'll never get posts like these. Instead of thinking about the larger social implications, you choose to make it all about you and feel personally attacked.
Why?

Because you can't be 100% empathetic all the time on everything. Sometimes people get to be selfish about something small so they can enjoy a damned thing without considering the implications of it all. Because modernity itself is built on a foundation of exploitation, pain, war and hate. You have to draw a line somewhere to be rational. Mine is around silly tech.

Also, now that I'm putting more thought into it. The article suggests that Amazon is using these devices to shift blame around stolen packages from the company to the thieves. Maybe instead of applying guilt to the people purchasing these, maybe we could refocus on the larger social issues that drive those behaviors.

Don't get me wrong, Amazon is far from a faultless company, but I just wanted a fucking camera to see who's at my front door while I play with child in the backyard, because that's what I do with the couple precious free moments I get a week. Not a complex social issue piled on me.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,434
We just got the Ring doorbell so we can avoid fundraisers and Jehovah's Witnesses.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,382
Richmond, VA
I've had a Ring doorbell for a while now and I can absolutely vouch for this.

The neighborhood "alerts" are almost never actual suspicious behavior. It's a bunch of noise combined with scared white people who freak out when anyone brown has the audacity to ring their doorbells or even walk by.

I'm dead serious. I've seen people post alerts because someone walked by their front door! It's the modern version of the old neighbors calling each other and complaining about "others".

I want to get rid of Ring and move to an encrypted camera without all this nonsense.
 

ilikesanta

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,124
Amazon has drivers just leave packages on people's doorsteps, package thieves swoop them up, people buy camera doorbells from amazon to catch them. Create a problem, then sell the solution.
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
I've had a Ring doorbell for a while now and I can absolutely vouch for this.

The neighborhood "alerts" are almost never actual suspicious behavior. It's a bunch of noise combined with scared white people who freak out when anyone brown has the audacity to ring their doorbells or even walk by.

I'm dead serious. I've seen people post alerts because someone walked by their front door! It's the modern version of the old neighbors calling each other and complaining about "others".

I want to get rid of Ring and move to an encrypted camera without all this nonsense.
Yep.

Got one a couple months ago and all I see is "spacious looking man" and of course they black.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,681
Some of the videos posted using ring social app neighbors are super racist. I often see videos with titles like "watch out for this brown man" and it's literally a dude who had the wrong address. And they are painting him out like a criminal.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,018
I'm not sure if it's people buying them out of fear but rather them selling products that will help instill even more fear, and being able to do so because it's been discounted. Making things cheap is how you get past someone's doorsteps afterall
 

1000% H

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,639
I just checked Amazon and saw their front page is advertising Ancestry DNA tests and Amazon Echoes and can't believe how we got here.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,434
I guess my neighborhood must be pretty boring cause we hardly get any postings on Ring--maybe 2 or 3 a month. I think people have gotten discouraged over posting though, cause even in legitimate cases like someone trying to open the door at 3am or looking under the door mat when nobody answers gets people jumping all over the OP about making a big deal over nothing.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,449
Seattle
I mean that whole Ring/Neighborhood app definitely profits off of fear. They make the app free to use, which then gets people to download and see all of these "reports" of suspicious activity, encouraging them to buy the Ring product.

Alternative take: I live in a major urban area, there have been 6 home invasion robberies within a mile of my home in the last year, burglaries and robberies are common, it's useful information that I actually can use to protect myself theoretically as being ignorant of the actual crime happening in your area is never good.

And people do "prowl" all the time here; getting a report of someone doing it means you can go outside, make your presence known, turn lights on, etc. It's not like the cops are alerting people to problems in neighborhoods.
 

Piston

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,343
I don't have a super nuanced take on this or anything, but I like the idea of cheap, de-centralized, non-violent, prevention-based home security. Opportunity based crime is often an issue and if an obvious opportunity isn't there it can prevent someone from becoming a felon (or getting shot in America). You can see this with all the idiots stealing packages from front doors.

You aren't going to stop racist neighbors from being racist either way. It is better than them sitting on their porch with a shotgun or pulling a George Zimmermann as part of the "neighborhood watch".

Edit: Also, as a kid, I was locked out of the house after school at least once a year for some reason or other. It would have been nice to be able to get in without waiting for my parents to get home. There are practical reasons for these devices.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,287
Yeah looking through the sale items I was caught off guard by the amount of surveillance equipment on sale and featured. It kind of starts with Alexa accessibility and now it this doorbell camera low price. Ive never needed one but the idea of having safety hit me a little. Had to step back.