AMD Navi Mainstream GPU: gtx1080-class performance - but Next Gen architecture is the “Zen" of GPUs

SharpX68K · Apr 12, 2018

https://wccftech.com/rumor-amd-navi-mainstream-gpu-to-have-gtx-1080-class-performance/

[Rumor] AMD Navi Mainstream GPU to Have GTX 1080 Class Performance, Nextgen Architecture is The "Zen" of GPUs

AMD's next generation mainstream Navi GPU will reportedly offer GTX 1080 / RX Vega 64 class performance and replace the company's current RX 580 cards as a mainstream class product in 2019.

Navi is Radeon's last Graphics Core Next based architecture and is expected to be the world's first high performance GPU built on 7nm process technology. Little is known about Navi in the techspere to date. One detail that we seldomly see reported is that AMD is working on two Navi GPUs, we'll call them Navi 10 and Navi 11 for the time being. One is designed for the desktop market and the other for the mobile market.

According to the report from Fudzilla, Navi will not be a large high-end GPU. Although the report doesn't specify which Navi GPU is being talked about, we're going to assume that it's the Navi 10 desktop part. The report further states that this Navi part will be a high performance, low power part with the performance of today's high-end GPUs and the power of mainstream parts.

This makes sense from several perspectives. From a manufacturing point of view, it's not feasible to produce a large GPU on a brand new cutting edge process like 7nm early in the node's life-cycle. The yields and wafer costs make this prohibitively expensive. This is why NVIDIA and AMD were only able to introduce the GTX 1080 Ti and Vega in 2017, rather than 2016.

It also makes sense from a profitability point view, as mainstream and mid-range GPUs far outsell high-end GPUs, by a factor of up to 1 to 4 in fact. Which is how AMD was able to double its market share in 2016, just with mainstream Polaris GPUs.

Behind The Scenes at AMD's Radeon GPU Labs

Over the past year we've been hearing whispers about a project at the company to bring horizontal die stacking technology and expertise over from the CPU department to the GPU department. With the intention of making high-end multi-die GPUs, akin to Ryzen Threadripper. We would have something like Navi 10 and Navi 20, with Navi 20 featuring two Navi 10 dies in the same package.

AMD EPYC 3000 with 2 Zeppelin/Ryzen dies. What Navi 20 would theoretically look like.d have something like Navi 10 and Navi 20, with Navi 20 featuring two Navi 10 dies in the same package

This die-stacking program we're told is what the company meant by "scalability" in its Navi Roadmap. More recently we've been hearing that the future of this Navi die stacking project may be uncertain in 2019, as more die stacking engineering effort is poured into AMD's entirely new 2020 post-GCN architecture. A design that we're told is as revolutionary as Zen.

If the Navi die stacking project has indeed been postponed then we will see AMD debut both its revolutionary new architecture, the Zen of GPUs if you will, and multi-die GPU stacking technology in 2020, after Navi. This would allow the company to address all segments of the market, from the entry level all the way to the ultra enthusiast segment just by employing a single GPU die that can be stacked to meet the needs of every market segment.

Sounds really exciting if things pans out.

Couple that with the recent Kotaku report about PS5 likely not coming before 2020.

Over the past month, I've spoken to dozens of game developers, across a variety of disciplines and studios, about the next generation of consoles. Of those, two people said they were directly familiar with plans for Sony's new console. Those two people both told me that the next PlayStation is unlikely to release in 2019, let alone 2018, although they were careful to be clear that these plans are always shifting.

"On a multi-year project, a lot can happen to shift schedules both forward and backward," one person said. "At some point, Sony's probably looked at every possible date. It's all about what they think is the best sweet spot in terms of hardware."

At the Game Developers Conference in San Francisco last month, secondhand rumors I heard also suggested a 2020 release. Word from a few people was that in meetings between Sony and developers, representatives for the publisher had dropped vague hints about that 2020 timeframe.

https://kotaku.com/sources-the-playstation-5-is-still-a-ways-off-1825152206

By Holiday 2020, I'll be ready for next gen consoles and a PC with the "Zen of GPUs" :)

GhostTrick · Apr 12, 2018

So next gen consoles to be in the 10-12 tflops range ?

SantaC · Apr 12, 2018

So 2 generations later AMD ties last gen from nvidia. Am I suppose to be impressed?

Sid · Apr 12, 2018

What does this mean for next gen consoles?

zombiejames · Apr 12, 2018

Um, if anything this article gives more credence to a 2019 release. The rumour is supposed to be for a Zen+Navi-based system, and any mentions of 2020 in the OP is for the architecture after Navi.

edit: I guess it's entirely possible Sony would skip Navi entirely?

inner-G · Apr 12, 2018

So my 1080 that is feeling long in the tooth is as good as the best next-gen one? This isn't their 'gaming' PC GPUs like the RX/Vega though, is it?

LightKiosk · Apr 12, 2018

Sid said:
What does this mean for next gen consoles?

Nothing, consoles typically use 2-3 generation older custom hardware so it can come out at a respectable price.

People expecting next-gen consoles to use this new gen AMD hardware are gonna have a bad time.

Sulik2 · Apr 12, 2018

SantaC said:
So 2 generations later AMD ties last gen from nvidia. Am I suppose to be impressed?

These are budget GPUs if I am reading this right. GTX 1080 performance for $200 - $300 actually wouldn't be a bad leap.

GhostTrick · Apr 12, 2018

Sid said:
What does this mean for next gen consoles?

That'd mean around VEGA64 performances in next consoles.

DocSeuss · Apr 12, 2018

zombiejames said:
Um, if anything this article gives more credence to a 2019 release. The rumour is supposed to be for a Zen+Navi-based system, and any mentions of 2020 in the OP is for the architecture after Navi.

edit: I guess it's entirely possible Sony would skip Navi entirely?

Since the 6th gen, consoles don't use next-gen tech, they use last-gen tech (in terms of 'gen' I'm referring to GPU gens, not console gens). If previous gens are anything to go by, we'll be looking at 2018 or 2019 tech in 2020 consoles.

Evergarden · Apr 12, 2018

Good for console market, I hope we can see 10TF GPU's on consoles. The problem is Nvidia's R&D budged is probably as big as the AMD itself (Well of course there is a little bit exaggeration but you got the point). It is good to see AMD trying it's best but I don't see they can compete with Nvidia in near future. For myself I cannot even work with AMD because of CUDA and cuDNN.

Venom · Apr 12, 2018

Imagine what games on PS5 and Xbox Next will look like on a 11-12TF GPU? 2020+ is going to be exciting to see all the new graphics and physics tech used in Next Gen games.

Steel · Apr 12, 2018

Sulik2 said:
These are budget GPUs if I am reading this right. GTX 1080 performance for $200 - $300 actually wouldn't be a bad leap.

That would actually be a ridiculously good leap. The budget cards of this gen matched the mid-range cards of last, so going from the mid-range of last to high-end of last would be a massive jump.

Now if only MSRP meant the price you'd actually get it at... But that's another story.

Waaghals · Apr 12, 2018

SantaC said:
So 2 generations later AMD ties last gen from nvidia. Am I suppose to be impressed?

This is for mid range parts. If they can do it on cheaper cards that should make them very competitive.

Slick Butter · Apr 12, 2018

SantaC said:
So 2 generations later AMD ties last gen from nvidia. Am I suppose to be impressed?

their mid-range card (let's call it the RX 680) will tie the 1080 in a year, which is a HUGE leap for a single generation difference in GPUs. Literally over double the power of the card it's directly succeeding
They already tied the 1080 with the Vega 64, which is an enthusiast tier card, not a mid-range.

D65 · Apr 12, 2018

inner-G said:
So my 1080 that is feeling long in the tooth is as good as the best next-gen one? This isn't their 'gaming' PC GPUs like the RX/Vega though, is it?

If consoles target 4K and you're using 1440p, you're probably going to get better performance in general. It doesn't feel like a big enough upgrade for me when the mid0gen refreshes are considered.

Venom · Apr 12, 2018

DocSeuss said:
Since the 6th gen, consoles don't use next-gen tech, they use last-gen tech (in terms of 'gen' I'm referring to GPU gens, not console gens). If previous gens are anything to go by, we'll be looking at 2018 or 2019 tech in 2020 consoles.

The PS4 Pro GPU used tech that wasn't even available in PC's. Going by Mark Cernys comments we can expect the same with PS5 so we may see 2020 tech used in that console.

DieH@rd · Apr 12, 2018

SantaC said:
So 2 generations later AMD ties last gen from nvidia. Am I suppose to be impressed?

It's not tying anything in the same peft range.

Article is talking about $200 successor to RX480 managing to beat 1080. Yes, you should be impressed. A lot of performance will be given to anyone who is building a modest budget PC.

D65 · Apr 12, 2018

DieH@rd said:
It's not tying anything in the same peft range.

Article is talking about $200 successor to RX480 managing to beat 1080. Yes, you should be impressed. A lot of performance will be given to anyone who is building a modest budget PC.

If there's any stock available that is

SharpX68K · Apr 12, 2018

zombiejames said:
Um, if anything this article gives more credence to a 2019 release. The rumour is supposed to be for a Zen+Navi-based system, and any mentions of 2020 in the OP is for the architecture after Navi.

edit: I guess it's entirely possible Sony would skip Navi entirely?

It's possible, or Sony's GPU for PS5 could be a semi-custom mix of Navi+Next Gen features. Look at the PS4 Pro GPU for example. It's based mainly on Polaris architecture (which launched in mid 2016 for PC) but also has some features that only came with Vega almost a year later. No reason Sony wouldn't do at least the same, if not even more for PS5.

And Microsoft, in their desire to have the most powerful console going forward, might be even more willing to skip Navi for the NextGen GPU.

Alienhated · Apr 12, 2018

So, will we be able to actually buy them....?

zombiejames · Apr 12, 2018

LightKiosk said:
Nothing, consoles typically use 2-3 generation older custom hardware so it can come out at a respectable price.

People expecting next-gen consoles to use this new gen AMD hardware are gonna have a bad time.

That's not true at all, at least when we're talking about consoles that use PC-based GPUs.

The 360 GPU was based on the Radeon X1800 XL, released October 2005 (same time, basically).
The PS3 GPU was based on the Geforce 7800 GTX, released June 2005 (one generation behind, the 8800 GT released October 2006)

I don't have time to look up the PS4/PS4 Pro and the Xbox side, but i'm pretty sure they're comparable timeframes (either newish or one generation behind, not 2-3).

Venom · Apr 12, 2018

SharpX68K said:
It's possible, or Sony's GPU for PS5 could be a semi-custom mix of Navi+Next Gen features. Look at the PS4 Pro GPU for example. It's based mainly on Polaris architecture (which launched in mid 2016 for PC) but also has some features that only came with Vega almost a year later. No reason Sony wouldn't do at least the same, if not even more for PS5.

And Microsoft, in their desire to have the most powerful console going forward, might be even more willing to skip Navi for the NextGen GPU.

Exactly, same as what I was trying to say above. I expect it with the PS5 as well, plus if AMD can back up their claims here, it wouldn't be too expensive for Sony to incorporate.

gcwy · Apr 12, 2018

580 was technically "mainstream" too.
jk

AMD has a lot to prove in their GPU apartment. I hope this is true because it would directly affect the GPU performance in next gen consoles.

Sulik2 · Apr 12, 2018

Alienhated said:
So, will we be able to actually buy them....?

With that kind of performance at that cost, I highly doubt it. These will be a miner's dream card. Low cost, low power and massive performance improvements.

DocSeuss · Apr 12, 2018

Venom said:
The PS4 Pro GPU used tech that wasn't even available in PC's. Going by Mark Cernys comments we can expect the same with PS5 so we may see 2020 tech used in that console.

Being proprietary doesn't make something ahead of current GPU tech. Like... the 8800GTX was ahead of the RSX, even though the RSX had some custom Nvidia stuff going on that wasn't in the 6200 or whatever it was equivalent to.

DukeBlueBall · Apr 12, 2018

LightKiosk said:
Nothing, consoles typically use 2-3 generation older custom hardware so it can come out at a respectable price.
People expecting next-gen consoles to use this new gen AMD hardware are gonna have a bad time.

Absolutely rubbish. Consoles have always used latest / future AMD / Nvidia technologies with the exception of Xbox One X (1 year old Polaris tech), Wii, Wii U, and Switch.

TheThreadsThatBindUs · Apr 12, 2018

LightKiosk said:
Nothing, consoles typically use 2-3 generation older custom hardware so it can come out at a respectable price.

People expecting next-gen consoles to use this new gen AMD hardware are gonna have a bad time.

Errr... I think you wanna do a bit more thorough fact checking before spouting something so factually incorrect.

E.g.

Xenos (XB360) had unified shaders before any desktop PC launched with them
PS4 sported enhancements that were post-southern island GPUs on the market
PS4 Pro launched based on Polaris but with Vega features long before any retail Vega GPU was available on the market

Consoles mostly use the latest GPU architecture that AMD is able to provide, but with customizations that succeed the current desktop GPU architecture.

gcwy · Apr 12, 2018

LightKiosk said:
Nothing, consoles typically use 2-3 generation older custom hardware so it can come out at a respectable price.

People expecting next-gen consoles to use this new gen AMD hardware are gonna have a bad time.

This is wrong. Consoles use the latest architecture however their performance can be compared to a 2-3 generation old enthusiast GPU. What GPU architecture actually ends up in the consoles entirely depends on when they want to release them but I think the chances of them using the latest one is pretty high.

Venom · Apr 12, 2018

DocSeuss said:
Being proprietary doesn't make something ahead of current GPU tech. Like... the 8800GTX was ahead of the RSX, even though the RSX had some custom Nvidia stuff going on that wasn't in the 6200 or whatever it was equivalent to.

We are talking in relation to you saying the PS5 will use 2018/19 tech. I meant, if Sony go the PS4 Pro route, we may see Navi + whatever Sony can use from the next gen architecture which means it may technically use 2020+ tech. Still behind PC but better than expected.

Edit: I also meant Pro used Polaris and Vega tech that wasn't available to PC users until later on.

Deleted member 11517 · Apr 12, 2018

So if you had to guess - these "mid tier super cheap 1080 like" GPUs will come out later this year?

(yes I read the article but they don't really say)

thebishop · Apr 12, 2018

I know this is out of left field, but given their open source contributions, I suspect Valve is gearing up to make (or partner to make) a piece of hardware based on a AMD + AMD SOC running SteamOS (after the much anticipated UI update drops), with a particular focus on VR usability. These low watt, high performance GPUs could be a good candidate.

TheThreadsThatBindUs · Apr 12, 2018

DocSeuss said:
Being proprietary doesn't make something ahead of current GPU tech. Like... the 8800GTX was ahead of the RSX, even though the RSX had some custom Nvidia stuff going on that wasn't in the 6200 or whatever it was equivalent to.

NVidia =/= AMD.

AMD generally tends to provide the most present and even future roadmap technologies to their semi-custom partners. NVidia on the other hand has almost always tended to provide ancient tech that has already been superseded by NVidia's own discrete products.... hence why Sony and MS have tended to go with AMD over NVidia.

Bjones · Apr 12, 2018

SantaC said:
So 2 generations later AMD ties last gen from nvidia. Am I suppose to be impressed?

Everything is not so black and white. Geez this type of thinking is everywhere these days.

rsfour · Apr 12, 2018

Give me a red 1080 for budget-mid price and I'll happily move over.

KillerMan91 · Apr 12, 2018

DocSeuss said:
Being proprietary doesn't make something ahead of current GPU tech. Like... the 8800GTX was ahead of the RSX, even though the RSX had some custom Nvidia stuff going on that wasn't in the 6200 or whatever it was equivalent to.

Xenos on X360 was ahead of PC GPUs in one way though as it had unified shader architecture that was adopted to PC GPUs year later with Geforce 8 series (and two years later on radeons with HD2000 series)

DocSeuss · Apr 12, 2018

KillerMan91 said:
Xenos on X360 was ahead of PC GPUs in one way though as it had unified shader architecture that was adopted to PC GPUs year later with Geforce 8 series (and two years later on radeons with HD2000 series)

Aye. That's the kind of thing I was talking about with the "custom nvidia stuff." I'm tired and my blood sugar's low and this was 8 years ago, so I'm not trying to be Super Mister Investigative Journo Man right now, haha. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

Carbon · Apr 12, 2018

1080 in a mid-range part means 10-12 TFlops in the next-gen consoles seems super likely now. Hope they wait as long as possible to get as much of that power for as little money as possible. We're going to be stuck with those next consoles until at least 2026-2027, so it would suck if they're not able to churn out solid 4k/60 without choking (knowing full-well many games will be 4k/30 for da visuals).

Andromeda · Apr 12, 2018

Nextgen Architecture is The "Zen" of GPUs

This is why Sony will wait 2020 for its PS5.

Betelgeuse · Apr 12, 2018

DocSeuss said:
Since the 6th gen, consoles don't use next-gen tech, they use last-gen tech (in terms of 'gen' I'm referring to GPU gens, not console gens). If previous gens are anything to go by, we'll be looking at 2018 or 2019 tech in 2020 consoles.

PS4 Pro debuted with features not available until the release of Vega. Do some research.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...tation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

dragn · Apr 12, 2018

cant wait for the 2020+ release

ss_lemonade · Apr 12, 2018

LightKiosk said:
Nothing, consoles typically use 2-3 generation older custom hardware so it can come out at a respectable price.

People expecting next-gen consoles to use this new gen AMD hardware are gonna have a bad time.

Didn't the original xbox have a GPU comparable to the Geforce 3 Ti, which was fairly new and a very high end GPU then?

LightKiosk · Apr 12, 2018

zombiejames said:
That's not true at all, at least when we're talking about consoles that use PC-based GPUs.

The 360 GPU was based on the Radeon X1800 XL, released October 2005 (same time, basically).
The PS3 GPU was based on the Geforce 7800 GTX, released June 2005 (one generation behind, the 8800 GT released October 2006)

I don't have time to look up the PS4/PS4 Pro and the Xbox side, but i'm pretty sure they're comparable timeframes (either newish or one generation behind, not 2-3).

DukeBlueBall said:
Absolutely rubbish. Consoles have always used latest / future AMD / Nvidia technologies with the exception of Xbox One X (1 year old Polaris tech), Wii, Wii U, and Switch.

TheThreadsThatBindUs said:
Errr... I think you wanna do a bit more thorough fact checking before spouting something so factually incorrect.

E.g.

Xenos (XB360) had unified shaders before any desktop PC launched with them

PS4 sported enhancements that were post-southern island GPUs on the market

PS4 Pro launched based on Polaris but with Vega features long before any retail Vega GPU was available on the market

Consoles mostly use the latest GPU architecture that AMD is able to provide, but with customizations that succeed the current desktop GPU architecture.

gcwy said:
This is wrong. Consoles use the latest architecture however their performance can be compared to a 2-3 generation old enthusiast GPU. What GPU architecture actually ends up in the consoles entirely depends on when they want to release them but I think the chances of them using the latest one is pretty high.

I was off on my 2-3 generational gap, I'll admit that, but it is still true that they typically use older custom hardware as I originally stated, injecting it with bits of their newer tech. Chances are we'll see modified full Vega in the PS5 using some Navi bits, and modified Navi in the PS5 Pro using bits from whatever is after Navi.

I personally don't see Navi in the PS5 at launch unless SONY really works out a good deal with AMD.

AM_LIGHT · Apr 12, 2018

That's why I am happy waiting for next generation on 2020

Instro · Apr 12, 2018

SantaC said:
So 2 generations later AMD ties last gen from nvidia. Am I suppose to be impressed?

What's with so many people responding to threads without even bothering to read the OP. I feel like I'm seeing it constantly lately.

Deleted member 34239 · Apr 12, 2018

AM_LIGHT said:
That's why I am happy waiting for next generation on 2020

I'm not sure why this news would make you or anyone in this thread happy. GTX 1080 performance is ~9-10TF when overclocked to > 1.8ghz. If the next gen consoles launch with 10TF after waiting till 2020, that would be a complete embarrassment as far as I'm concerned. If it's less than 12TF, they shouldn't even bother.

gueras · Apr 12, 2018

12 Tflops is a good guess for Ps5 now. We are talking for a new GPU in 2019 $199 with 12TFLOPS if PS5 is 2020 I'm sure they can get that for less than $150.

Carbon · Apr 12, 2018

georaldc said:
Didn't the original xbox have a GPU comparable to the Geforce 3 Ti, which was fairly new and a very high end GPU then?

Different time, different priorities. Consoles are firmly in the mid-to-high range now. The tech is not improving at NEARLY the rate it was in the 2000s, so throwing the absolute best thing possible and hoping for it to get massively cheaper in a few years due to advancements is no longer a viable strategy. PS4 was at or near profitability on day 1, and I expect the PS5 will be as well.

psilocybe · Apr 12, 2018

I'm interested in this die-stacking. I'm with NVIDIA now, but I would switch to AMD if they start getting competitive again.

Beef Stallmer · Apr 12, 2018

DocSeuss said:
Since the 6th gen, consoles don't use next-gen tech, they use last-gen tech (in terms of 'gen' I'm referring to GPU gens, not console gens). If previous gens are anything to go by, we'll be looking at 2018 or 2019 tech in 2020 consoles.

I believe your timeline and theory is wrong.
consoles have always used next gen tech. xbox 360=EDRAM and unified shaders before they were available on consumer pc, first more than 2 core cpu. PS3 had cell which would have been like a next generation PC architecture, but Intel was never able to complete larabee. PS4 and Xbox One both were hUMA-like architectures.

Looking at AMDs excellent work with console manufacturers, I'd say there is a big chance a 2019 PS5 will have the next-gen GPU cores

AMD Navi Mainstream GPU: gtx1080-class performance - but Next Gen architecture is the “Zen" of GPUs

One Winged Slayer

User requested account closure

Deploying the stealth Cruise Missile

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account

One Winged Slayer

User requested account closure

Deploying the stealth Cruise Missile