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Oct 25, 2017
7,523
Do you know what anti-semitic tropes are and why they're bad? As if they're not something which exist. I can link you to the other threads if you want to see what that was about, rather than rehashing it here. Nobody is disagreeing that she was incorrect.



Except I was completely ignoring what they had to say on this, my concern was for the Jewish Democrats. Why would I care what the GOP have to say about anything?



If it was just me this would be a nothing burger and we wouldn't be on the third thread discussing this.



You've built up a straw man to fight against. Nobody here, including me, cares what about false bad faith anti-semitism charges of Omar by the GOP and Israel. It's false choice between choosing their side, or not acknowledging the racism, Islamophobia and xenophobia Omar goes through when you're ignoring the third party in this discussion - the Democratic party and their minority members who are not acting on their bad faith arguments and coming at a good faith angle on racist language. I don't know what your argument is with the hypothetic future anti-semitism, all the instances I've argued with her have been in the present and the past. There was nothing "hypothetic" about it.



It's not bullshit to care about anti-semitism, and you're ignoring that I'm not calling her that in the first place - it's about appearing like an anti-semite. However, this does raise questions - what's the line here? I'm all for supporting your allies but if she had said something homophobic or transphobic would you still be defending her? What gets me about this is that you've become the mirror image of the people you oppose, that you're missing the nuance involved to score political points rather than be flexible in attacking your enemies without sacrificing political careers pointlessly. Rashida Tlaib is able to do this, why can't Omar?

Are you angry about AOC's response to all this? Because she's doing exactly what I've been trying to tell you or do you think she's unsalvageable because she's trying to use language which brings people together, without falling into landmines which offend Jewish Democrats in the process.



I wasn't arguing that she was, either.



Except I'm not defending what the white dudes in the GOP are doing. I could give a fuck about Lindsay Graham, McCarthy or anyone else in the GOP have to say on this subject, they're all operating in bad faith. I'm speaking strictly of the Democratic party



You don't accept that racist language exists? The reason why Omar is getting raked over the coals is how she used that term from that song, not because that song itself is anti-Semite. Context and phrasing. Saying certain things in certain ways will get you in hot water on numerous sensitive topics: from homophobia, to misogny to racism. Anti-Semitism is included, naturally. No, it's not that Omar said it - it's how she framed it which was a context that could be view as anti-semite. She didn't simply post it out of nowhere because she liked a Jay Z song on twitter. Nobody would give a shit about that context.



Sure.

Then you need to stop thinking like we're all enemies because we simply disagree with you about antisemitic language, while we agree with many, many things on Palestine and Israel. Of course people are less likely to engage in threads like that, despite agreeing with you, when regardless of what they say or how they say it you'll view them as the enemy. What is to be gained by encounters like that? Look how this thread has gone.

"I'm totally an ally and I don't think she is an anti-Semite or said anything anti-Semitic but I'm going to write a dozen mini-essays in every Ilhan Omar thread deliberately misinterpreting her words"

You still haven't said exactly what wording she should use to not be called anti-semitic. (Because there isn't any. She'd be called an anti-semite even if she kept her mouth shut). You seem to think that just because someone is a Democrat then the dogpiling on Ilhan Omar is in good faith, which is nonsense.

The only reason there is a real conversation about Ilhan Omar "appearing" like an anti-Semite is because fake ass allies keep twisting what she is saying to make her appear anti-Semitic.

But you know what, keep on telling us how progressive you are while you join everybody dogpiling onto her for being a black, Muslim, immigrant woman.
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,231
South East Asia
Seriously why are these fools still allowed to derail these conversations? Shouldn't it be pretty obvious by now they're arguing in bad faith or am I just crazy?
 
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Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
She made the situation worse yesterday with her tweet. So I'm not surprised there's something coming.

By defending something you said would not be an issue she actually made it an issue? I think you need to recognize there's no meaningful difference between the GOP and the AIPAC wing (really almost the entire bird) of the Democratic party.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
By defending something you said would not be an issue she actually made it an issue? I think you need to recognize there's no meaningful difference between the GOP and the AIPAC wing (really almost the entire bird) of the Democratic party.
She took the bait and engaged on the personal-level framing Chait and co were misrepresenting her original policy-based statement as.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
She took the bait and engaged on the personal-level framing Chait and co were misrepresenting her original policy-based statement as.

You're really twisting yourself in knots here. You made an inaccurate prediction because you gave too much benefit of the doubt to people simply because they have a D after their name. Now you're blaming her for other people's racist attacks on her, which is quite the move.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
You're really twisting yourself in knots here. You made an inaccurate prediction because you gave too much benefit of the doubt to people simply because they have a D after their name. Now you're blaming her for other people's racist attacks on her, which is quite the move.
I am not. I made a prediction based on what had occurred at the time. Subsequent events changed my opinion.
Lowey condemned Omar's use of "offensive, painful stereotypes," leading to a fight on Twitter as Omar dug in on her comments and was cheered by some on the left.

"Our democracy is built on debate, Congresswoman!" Omar wrote, later adding, "I have not mischaracterized our relationship with Israel, I have questioned it and that has been clear from my end." Omar declined to be interviewed for this story.

Staffers for several Jewish lawmakers, including Engel and Lowey, soon began working with Democratic leaders on the resolution.
My post a few hours after that twitter exchange:
Omar's twitter response is going to make things worse here. It's a bad response because it takes the state-level framing of her original statement and makes it citizen-level, which is exactly what the out-of-context framing of her original statement was trying to do.
This should have been put to bed over the weekend and instead gasoline got poured on.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
I am not. I made a prediction based on what had occurred at the time. Subsequent events changed my opinion.

My post a few hours after that twitter exchange:

This should have been put to bed over the weekend and instead gasoline got poured on.

Yes, gasoline was poured on by Lowey and Wasserman Schulz. I've already explained why your priors rendered you unable to predict that would happen when it was obvious to many. I have no idea what "state level/citizen level framing" is supposed to mean. This seems similar to the "Benjamins" faketroversy where you took the rather bizarre position that her retweet was a critical factor in the reaction.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Yes, gasoline was poured on by Lowey and Wasserman Schulz. Why you were unable to predict that would happen, when it was obvious to many. I have no idea what "state level framing" is supposed to mean. This seems similar to the "Benjamins" faketroversy where you took the rather bizarre position that her retweet was a critical factor in the reaction.
Framing "pledge of allegiance" as a policy outcome being pushed for via the shitty anti-BDS laws and foreign policy that's too deferential to Israel and doesn't push on them enough to actually change their behavior? That's state-level framing. That was how her original statement was laid out.

In her reply, she specifically makes it about *herself* being asked to have support/pledge allegiance, with the implication that it's the status quo for the people she serves alongside in the legislature. That's no longer about policy, it's about people's personal motivations. And that's going to upset people she works alongside in congress, especially Jewish ones.

And yes, you would think my position was bizarre if you thought the whole thing was fake and illegitimate.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Framing "pledge of allegiance" as a policy outcome being pushed for via the shitty anti-BDS laws and foreign policy that's too deferential to Israel and doesn't push on them enough to actually change their behavior? That's state-level framing. That was how her original statement was laid out.

In her reply, she specifically makes it about *herself* being asked to have support/pledge allegiance, with the implication that it's the status quo for the people she serves alongside in the legislature. That's no longer about policy, it's about people's personal motivations. And that's going to upset people she works alongside in congress, especially Jewish ones.

And yes, you would think my position was bizarre if you thought the whole thing was fake and illegitimate.
There's an actual pledge that people are asked to sign, how the fuck are you supposed to talk about it?
I'm being silly of course, you're not supposed to talk about it, that's the whole point, because again, for the GOP BDS = antisemtism, it's in their fucking platform.
But you keep pretending like there is some magical playbook that allow a black muslim woman to support BDS and that wouldn't make all those asshole call her an antisemite.

Man, you're sure betting a whole lot that the white racist assholes who hated every Muslim person and every black person and every woman they have ever met, just happen to have a point with the first black Muslim woman in congress.
You really want to be the guy who was like "I'm not saying black people can't play baseball, but Jackie Robinson swing look iffy to me, and I'm not sure he got into the league on merit"?

You honestly see a world that in 10 years we look back and think "Kevin McCarthy was sure a racist asshole about everything else, but man, he sure sniffed that racist black social Democrat from Minnesota"?
 

Gamonbozia

Member
Feb 25, 2019
78
The way the mainstream media portrays progressives and democrats in a negative light makes me sick.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
By specifically referring to it, which her original statement on friday did by referring to the Pledge shit as a policy outcome.
Again, you keep ignoring that -
a. it's in the GOP platform that BDS = antisemitism
b. That whole thing started when Kevin McCarthy tried to punish her and the other muslim woman that was elected to congress, and that was before she did the in thinkable hate crime of [check notes] empty RT some guy.

Straight up, do you believe it's a legitimate opinion to support BDS?
Do you think she should be allowed to express that position?
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Again, you keep ignoring that -
a. it's in the GOP platform that BDS = antisemitism
b. That whole thing started when Kevin McCarthy tried to punish her and the other muslim woman that was elected to congress, and that was before she did the in thinkable hate crime of [check notes] empty RT some guy.

Straight up, do you believe it's a legitimate opinion to support BDS?
Do you think she should be allowed to express that position?
I'm not ignoring it. The GOP has been doing this shit for months targeting Omar and Tilab. I fundamentally don't care about that because they're always going to be coming for Muslim, Jewish, Gay, female, liberal, left, etc. people regardless with bad faith arguments. It's noise you learn to just ignore.

Yes. I disagree with the position (Sanders and I actually have the same stance on this!) but I don't think it's inherently anti-semitic.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
These democrats are some of the most spineless, most coward people I have ever seen. Fuck them and fuck Israel.

It makes me mad they keep doing this shit and getting away with it. People need to see what is happening and I hope Ilhan is able to do so. More power to her.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I'm not ignoring it. The GOP has been doing this shit for months targeting Omar and Tilab. I fundamentally don't care about that because they're always going to be coming for Muslim, Jewish, Gay, female, liberal, left, etc. people regardless with bad faith arguments. It's noise you learn to just ignore.

Yes. I disagree with the position (Sanders and I actually have the same stance on this!) but I don't think it's inherently anti-semitic.
Take a step back for one second and see what the fuck is going on.
There is a planned and coordinated effort to paint the first muslim woman in the congress as antisemitic.
This has nothing to do with omg rap lyrics or Racist Tropes, this was going to happen no matter what. And you look at all that shit and decide the smart move is to lecture Ilhan Omar.

But that's always the trick right? never talk about the substance, like, you don't want to talk about why you're against economic sanctions on Israel because you know it's a very difficult position to defend.
So you go for pages talking about vague shit instead the stuff that you should care about, the fact that you really disagree with her on the big policy issue - whether or not the US should apply economic pressure on Israel to end its apartheid state.
Like, that's a way bigger deal that quoting puff daddy or whatever.

And then you wonder why people think you argue in bad faith.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Take a step back for one second and see what the fuck is going on.
There is a planned and coordinated effort to paint the first muslim woman in the congress as antisemitic.
This has nothing to do with omg rap lyrics or Racist Tropes, this was going to happen no matter what. And you look at all that shit and decide the smart move is to lecture Ilhan Omar.

But that's always the trick right? never talk about the substance, like, you don't want to talk about why you're against economic sanctions on Israel because you know it's a very difficult position to defend.
So you go for pages talking about vague shit instead the stuff that you should care about, the fact that you really disagree with here on the big policy issue - whether or not the US should apply economic pressure on Israel to end its apartheid state.

And then you wonder why people think you argue in bad faith.
There is a coordinated effort. She's also fucking up basic stuff when discussing this issue and should hire someone to run her social media for her. Both are true at once.

I'm not against economic sanctions, neither is Sanders. I'm against blanket-joining in with the BDS ones, we absolutely should be pressuring Israel to stop shit like the settlement expansions, but those sanctions should be independent of the BDS framework.
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,475
Kitchener, ON
The way the mainstream media portrays progressives and democrats in a negative light makes me sick.
It should make you sick. It should make you angry and outraged and want to actively protest against them. Especially in a world where regressives get a slap on the wrist for virtually everything.

Harness that anger and use it to guide your decisions as both a voter and a consumer.
 

effingvic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,415
The only way for Rep Omar to not "fuck up" about this issue is for her to stop talking about it completely. No matter what she says on the matter, however harmless, it will be misconstrued and people will go to crazy lengths to find an anti-semitic angle. I'm glad she's bringing up these issues and all this stupidity is proving her right.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
The only way for Rep Omar to not "fuck up" about this issue is for her to stop talking about it completely. No matter what she says on the matter, however harmless, it will be misconstrued and people will go to crazy lengths to find an anti-semitic angle. I'm glad she's bringing up these issues and all this stupidity is proving her right.
Tilab is Palestinian-American, been in Congress longer, and she's never had an issue with her statements igniting firestorms like this despite being the target of the exact same buillshit bad faith stuff as Omar from the right wing.
 

effingvic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,415
Tilab is Palestinian-American, been in Congress longer, and she's never had an issue with her statements igniting firestorms like this despite being the target of the exact same buillshit bad faith stuff as Omar from the right wing.

I 100% guarantee her being hijabi has a lot to do with it. She's extremely visibly Muslim which makes her an easy target. It's why she's on that islamophobic poster in WV and not Rep Tlaib.

Did we also forget the "outrage" when Rep Tlaib said the word "motherfucker"?
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,250
Sydney
The only way for Rep Omar to not "fuck up" about this issue is for her to stop talking about it completely. No matter what she says on the matter, however harmless, it will be misconstrued and people will go to crazy lengths to find an anti-semitic angle. I'm glad she's bringing up these issues and all this stupidity is proving her right.

Correct. She's been straight up told it's an off limits topic.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Tilab is Palestinian-American, been in Congress longer, and she's never had an issue with her statements igniting firestorms like this despite being the target of the exact same buillshit bad faith stuff as Omar from the right wing.

Tlaib and Omar entered Congress at the same time. Tlaib has gotten flack, too, but she's not black and doesn't wear a headscarf, making her less of a target (i.e., plastering photos of her as the "enemy" is not as effective).
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Tlaib and Omar entered Congress at the same time. Tlaib has gotten flack, too, but she's not black and doesn't wear a headscarf, making her less of a target (i.e., plastering photos of her as the "enemy" is not as effective).
Found my mistake- I knew she ran for a special election, I didn't realize she lost that primary and won the general primary. (that is a weird set of outcomes.)
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,539
Bandung Indonesia
It seems some people would only be satisfied if Omar is just shutting her mouth up and don't say anything anymore. She doesn't even have the privilege of reassessing her stance and to answer other's accusations towards her, before people coming in and told her to "be careful" (while in truth only an euphemism of "just shut the fuck up")

Has Pelosi even said anything about her picture in front of that Twin Tower? She's so quick to tell her to be quiet during the Benjamins thing, what about now?
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
Framing "pledge of allegiance" as a policy outcome being pushed for via the shitty anti-BDS laws and foreign policy that's too deferential to Israel and doesn't push on them enough to actually change their behavior? That's state-level framing. That was how her original statement was laid out.

In her reply, she specifically makes it about *herself* being asked to have support/pledge allegiance, with the implication that it's the status quo for the people she serves alongside in the legislature. That's no longer about policy, it's about people's personal motivations. And that's going to upset people she works alongside in congress, especially Jewish ones.

And yes, you would think my position was bizarre if you thought the whole thing was fake and illegitimate.

This is so strained and implausible I doubt you sincerely believe it. Again, nobody but you has even suggested the problem was this farcical shift in framing or that the first comment would have been ok. Anyone who's followed politics for more than 10 minutes could predict this would happen as soon as the word "allegiance" was used in conjunction with Israel. Vargas made very clear what the problem is. You don't have to constantly make excuses for the shittiest Democrats.
 

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
"I'm totally an ally and I don't think she is an anti-Semite or said anything anti-Semitic but I'm going to write a dozen mini-essays in every Ilhan Omar thread deliberately misinterpreting her words"

the amount of energy expended, if used somewhere more productive could probably make the USA carbon neutral
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
"I'm totally an ally and I don't think she is an anti-Semite or said anything anti-Semitic but I'm going to write a dozen mini-essays in every Ilhan Omar thread deliberately misinterpreting her words"

You still haven't said exactly what wording she should use to not be called anti-semitic. (Because there isn't any. She'd be called an anti-semite even if she kept her mouth shut). You seem to think that just because someone is a Democrat then the dogpiling on Ilhan Omar is in good faith, which is nonsense.

AOC is really good at doing this.



I don't expect you to consider this in good faith, as you've made up your mind already about this subject and regardless of where critics come from will be seen as bad faith.

She'd be called that by the GOP/AIPAC, not Democrats. Don't conflate the two, as if they had one mind. Dogpiling in itself is a neutral term, which can be for good or bad causes, and this ignores the complexity involved in why the Dems are doing so. It can be done in good faith for the right reasons, for instance. What's worrying is that Omar can't seem to do wrong by you, even hypothetically.

Ignoring large swathes of what I had to say, always a good sign I'm talking to someone arguing in good faith there. Disappointing that you'd throw LGBT under this bus if Omar did that, though.

You won't bother engaging with me about what anti-Semitism is, so your argument that your taking that seriously isn't as potent as you're posturing about. You're don't seem that concerned about it, period, whether it's real or an appearance - which is disturbing. Yet you're painting me as a fake progressive when all the issues surrounding Omar deserve our respect regarding racism because the Dems are a big tent party, everyone is welcome here.

The only reason there is a real conversation about Ilhan Omar "appearing" like an anti-Semite is because fake ass allies keep twisting what she is saying to make her appear anti-Semitic.

This is about perception, and being seen as not being an anti-semite should be cause for concern particularly on your own side. I've routinely talked about that I don't see her an anti-semite, that this is strictly phrasing and context while this is ignored over sensitive issues which apply to various subjects regarding racism, sexism, homophobia etc but you're going to pretend this isn't a thing in society around the world? There's nothing fake about this.

But you know what, keep on telling us how progressive you are while you join everybody dogpiling onto her for being a black, Muslim, immigrant woman.

Except that's not what we're doing, not on the Democratic side. This is about anti-semitic phrasing, nothing to do with who she is. She gets a lot of shit for that, which she shouldn't, but don't confuse us with the GOP, Israel or AIPAC. What's frustrating is that you're coming at this more from an excuse for justification to attack us rather than introspect someone you admire who might have screwed up every once and a while, because she's human.

The crucial aspect you're missing is that there isn't a wide gulf between us on this, ideologically, on the issues of Israel or Palestine. You're imagining fighting a straw man when all this is an argument over minor phrasing issues. You're right that Omar is fighting a huge war on this with the odds against her, but rather than listen to doing this from within you seem determined to castigate anyone who disagrees as the same as a Republican or that she can do good works without being so controversial. Fighting AIPAC and Israel is good, I support that, but to do that requires a lot more than simply saying things on twitter (financially, severing off ties with the Dems etc) and she can do so much more when she isn't being isolated from the Dems. But to do that requires playing ball, since she's not in position to make the change she wants that's just how it is right now. Maybe it'll change in the future but for that change to happen means not becoming AIPAC's new trophy and feeding into the reputation of anti-semitism on the left and the right and this continues to happen. :(
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
This is so strained and implausible I doubt you sincerely believe it. Again, nobody but you has even suggested the problem was this farcical shift in framing or that the first comment would have been ok. Anyone who's followed politics for more than 10 minutes could predict this would happen as soon as the word "allegiance" was used in conjunction with Israel. Vargas made very clear what the problem is. You don't have to constantly make excuses for the shittiest Democrats.
If you, Chikor and OW don't believe I'm posting in good faith, please stop responding to me. Because I am. And it's not worth engaging with you if you're just going to be trying to bait something out over and over again that isn't there.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
lol dems are killing themselves, omar is 100% right

Yes, she is. Which nobody was arguing with her about.

Dems going all in on any bad mouthing Israel is antisemitic suddenly. They were missing when Trump was yelling Soros and globalist.

Did you miss the part where Dems criticise him for that? That's Tuesday for us.

I think we all need to start tweeting our democratic reps and say if they try to oust her we will sit out next election. This is ridiculous

Tried in the mid-terms. Failed miserably.

I want them to try or do boot her. I want it be very public that the democrats kicked out one of the 2 Muslim members who is black and a woman because she said she should have a right to criticize the policies of Israel

Or how about she stay a congresswoman and try to get her work done there?

People need to be shown by example what is going on

How about working on a plan to do something about their influence, rather than talk about it.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
He says on a video game message board where he posted as much as anyone in the thread.

Among those posts, what actions to be taken to do more than talking. Video game message boards are able to have complex discussions on complex issues, like this one and posters are allowed to share opinions and details from the leaders they support in politics and activism - those are where the real change will occur, of course - I'm not asking everyone personally to do something themselves here. That's be silly. Strangely, when these questions are asked I may as well get crickets because nobody seems to care about that aspect.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
Among those posts, what actions to be taken to do more than talking. Video game message boards are able to have complex discussions on complex issues, like this one and posters are allowed to share opinions and details from the leaders they support in politics and activism - those are where the real change will occur, of course - I'm not asking everyone personally to do something themselves here. That's be silly. Strangely, when these questions are asked I may as well get crickets because nobody seems to care about that aspect.

What actions? BDS? Of course there is nothing wrong with sharing opinions, but it's lame to castigate others for just talking when that's all you're doing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
ffs, the issue is not whether allegations of antisemitism are being made in good faith here. the issue is whether they're correct, and more broadly, exactly why the people alleging it should be granted power to determine the boundaries of the entire debate over Israel/Palestine
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,313
It's a bit strange to say how about you act instead of talk when... Well, let's see...
Center-left people don't consider a politician's extreme support for Israel and a relationship with AIPAC to be a dealbreaker the same way they do for far more minor flaws of politicians they don't like.
They don't want you to advocate for boycotts and sanctions.
The most they do for Israeli atrocities is some meek condemnations. If they even bother to pay lip service, that is.
And they'll tone police the tamest of criticism towards Israel if not outright mischaracterize said criticism.

It doesn't seem to me that'll lead to lessening their influence now, does it?
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,261
It's gonna take a lot to shift a lot of US politicians' views on Israel. Even when the IDF bulldozed an American woman to death they were unnerved. One of the best things that could happen is an increase in politicians like Omar and AOC. The latter caused a mild international stir last year when she mentioned Israeli occupation - generally a huge faux pas amongst US politicos to the point it is unheard of.