Vertpin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,999
We did consider community driven, that is the entire point of members reporting it. The fact that we need to screen it for moderation purposes doesn't really change that. If something is decided by the community but turns out to be a problem in the view of moderation, it will be removed regardless. Just like every other feature be they poll, thread creation, gift bot abuse, avatar shenanigans etc. The point of making moderation screening it before the highlight applies is to try and prevent problems rather than having to deal with them as a reaction. I'm looking for abuse/issues, not doing a "is this funny" check or whether or not I personally like it.

Here are some things we simply don't want to deal with: inappropriate/insensitive comments being highlighted by members, reducing discussion or replies, highlighted posts being used to win fights, highlighted posts being used to troll or otherwise antagonise members in subtle ways, getting into an argument with members because we removed a highlight. A post can be 90% fantastic but have a small element that is also not ok. A post can be 100% correct but the user is still being an asshole about it. The point is, we don't want to be too picky with these but there are considerations that we need to make as staff that we don't expect other users to be able to make. Users might not be happy with not being able to choose but I'd bet that is still better than when we're taking highlights down that they feel are 100% correct to users/communities. There will also be a cascading affect where you can then highlight posts that call out mods/users taking down the highlight. Community tends to react faster than moderators, this is why reports are often a game of catchup, find out what is happening, decide on it. You already see posts that were reported go unaction for a long time, imagine such a post highlighted... It will be frustrating to everyone involved. All of this nonsense is really far and away from the purpose of this feature which is simply an option to try and highlight some positivity or fun. I'm sure there will still be mistakes and issues now and then but it will be far less and easier for us to manage.

Nothing stops you from both reporting it for a highlight and posting to tell the member you appreciate them/their post. If anything, posting to say something can be nice in and of itself which is sort of the intent of this feature any way.

The "is or is not likes" calling argument feels pointless. This isn't how I use likes. Maybe it is how you use it and how you will use this feature. Cool. Moving on.

This feature is also not intended to replace threadmarks which are a more permanent feature to highlight important updates or informational posts within a thread. These features might work together but generally speaking serve different purposes. If you see a threadmark, you should probably read it to better understand either the rules or the topic at hand.

On the concern for moderator workload front, sure. It is more work for us, it will not always be quick either but I'll be honest. Seeing a maybe not funny post in the report queue will not do anything too much for me. The report queue can be at times a queue of some of the forums most toxic and tiring posts. Adding some "Is this worth highlighting?" into the mix is not going to be a problem personally and I'll be honest, I don't see a huge number of members using this feature regularly any way.

The way this feature works is a bit clumsy. It is one of the many features we have wanted for a while but also on the backend of things it isn't exactly the what it appears to be. It is a bit complicated but this isn't a feature built from scratch to do what we want so what we can change is also limited. It frustrates staff too and while we turning it back off is always an option I still hope there is stuff we can enjoy from this. I'm not sure what else we can add or change to this all I know is that it isn't easy to work with so try not to take our lack of commentary on people posting "This is a better method" type posts as us dismissing the idea entirely. Even if I like some ideas I can't even really comment on the feasibility of it right now.

Jokes will always be subjective and how familiar you are with the context definitely affects how well it lands. For this reason I personally didn't really want jokes and funnies to be highlighted. With that said though I also recognise it isn't just about me. Who am I to say that others shouldn't get to have a look at a maybe funny. I did consider that if it becomes just a jokes and funnies feed it would be a bit disappointing but I can add that to the considerations when the time comes. I can't exactly force members to make the content I want and then other users to report it for highlighting. This is still going to be something that needs to happen as users post, as others react and choose to report and then moderator reviews.

In any case, if this isn't a feature you want to use that is fine too. I've yet to do tournaments myself, not everything is for everybody. If you don't like any of the highlighted posts, that is fine too. If you do like the highlighted posts, that is great. There will always be some disagreements in this. When I clicked this thread I was expecting to see more discussion on what type of posts people wanted to highlight and examples. If you don't like what we have, give us examples of the cool stuff, the good stuff. We can add to the examples as well.


I've talked with mods endlessly about giving things to the community, this is one of them. I want more but honestly, some of the reactions make me question whether it is worth it at all.

Have you seen how discouraging the poll results were for things like inclusitivity and representation. Probably not because we ended up killing such polls almost every time. If you think that our forum is full of compassionate, understanding people who are also not internet users who have been over multiple decades now, conditioned by consumerism, social media and entertainment to be reactionary and often hyperbolic or worse yet dismissive in their online interactions I don't know what to tell you.

It isn't just important topics either. There is endless console wars. Trolling each other "for some fun and laughs" in typical internet fashion. Sometimes there are valid criticism that can be subtle or dogwhistling or inappropriate in some ways. You could read an otherwise great post and maybe highlight it. You might not catch the comment that calls out the problematic nature within the post. Others might not as well and so a post with inflammatory or inappropriate content continues on highlighted. This will only further serve to frustrate members. The amount of of "fuck you, got mine" type posts that users will casually endorse. The "I'm just here to talk about games, this is issue is important but I'm not here to talk about that and it doesn't need to be in this topic". The "this is fine to me" handwaving. "All the [minority status] friends I have say..." type posts. The dogpiling over something minor. The snark that made you laugh at the expense of another member. The us vs them mentality across threads, against different communities, against staff etc.

As a moderator, I have been forced to view things with a lot of intersectional considerations. I still make a lot of mistakes. So yes. Forgive me if I don't feel confident that giving users the keys won't result in messes that we'll have to step into and moderate, likely leading to pointless bans and frustrations all around. You have something? Our users will argue over it. Some of them to the graves of their accounts if they are passionate enough. Look no further than this thread where users feel like quitting over it. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, people feel how they feel and will have disagreements. I trust members to make mistakes. We all do. I don't want to ban people for them/situations caused so if looking through and denying some of the highlight requests leads to less of it then so be it.

I realise your post probably didn't deserve all of this response but I'm tired of people trying to paint moderators like the forum's biggest asshole.

No offense, but your response's tone and the depiction of Era members as untrustworthy speaks volumes about the recent moderation this board has employed in recent years. Recently, it's been seeming as if the mods here have been choosing to deflect criticism instead of addressing it constructively (typically in long-winded posts that beat around the bush). Judging by how often the mods here are ignoring concerns, as well as not addressing criticism (but pushing their own "nah, it's my way or the highway") responses...it's been pretty revealing. The Constructive Community and general meta commentary in this message board have been sharing insights about some of the poor moderation practices here. Why is nothing changing?
 

JasoNsider

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,246
Canada
I realise your post probably didn't deserve all of this response but I'm tired of people trying to paint moderators like the forum's biggest asshole.

I don't think people are trying to paint you all as the forum's biggest assholes. Obviously a lot of work goes into weeding out the riffraff. But this post and others like it really come across as the forum elite thinking they know better than us regular users. The moderators in this thread have made it pretty clear they 1) do not trust the community (as a whole) to promote better posts and 2) see no issue in them being sole tastemaker/king maker in discussions themselves. I think those who are frustrated in this thread are running out of ways to express why this is so concerning. When we voice concern, we are effectively hearing (literally) "nah" and that mods will have an even heavier thumb tipping the scales in our discussions.

It frustrates staff too and while we turning it back off is always an option I still hope there is stuff we can enjoy from this. I'm not sure what else we can add or change to this all I know is that it isn't easy to work with so try not to take our lack of commentary on people posting "This is a better method" type posts as us dismissing the idea entirely. Even if I like some ideas I can't even really comment on the feasibility of it right now.

I'm glad you said this, but the tone and content of the other half of your post comes across as dismissive.

The "is or is not likes" calling argument feels pointless. This isn't how I use likes. Maybe it is how you use it and how you will use this feature. Cool. Moving on.

...like this here. Many of us brought up what I believe are pretty salient reasons on why this is pretty contradictory position the moderators are taking here. It feels cynical and hand-wavy.

And finally, I believe you're revealing quite a lot about the type of discourse the moderators want to take a heavy hand with here, making me doubly uncertain that a "Mods Like" feature will be used in ways the community actually agrees with. Obviously I don't expect the mods to get everything "right" (as that's pretty subjective), but I see no reason to give even more leverage for influencing the "correct opinions" in a discussion between average users. If anything, I'd advocate that a lighter touch on moderation would be better, by letting the community navigate hearty debates for itself.

Anyway, I feel like all of us have stated our positions about as conclusively as we can at this point. No need for me to drag this on further. If the mods are truly this dead-set on rolling it out as-is, then I wish you luck and hope we can have good conversations in future threads.
 

Bladelaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,805
I appreciate the staff looking for ways to make things less dire. Truly, anyone reading through any marginally contentious topic knows tensions are high and folks are one misread comment from a dogpile so any effort to combat that is appreciated because it's coming from a good place.

I think there's issues with the current implementation that are going to feed into perceived biases between users and staff (see this thread for examples).

That said if I was going to implement this feature the design might look like this:
1) Every post as a "submit for highlighting" (because we can't call it "like") button
2) User toggleable, both seeing the highlight graphic/border, and the ability to see/use the "submit for highlighting" button
3) when a post reaches a staff determined threshold a report is generated for that post just like highlights are now.
4) staff decides if the post is highlightable

If folks don't want to interact with the system, toggle it off. Staff keeps the option to guard against problematic brigading by having the final say. If you want to further guard against brigading keep it to "member" status accounts to prevent folks from signing up just to highlight some junk.
 
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Spoit

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,182
I appreciate the staff looking for ways to make things less dire. Truly, anyone reading through any marginally contentious topic knows tensions are high and folks are one misread comment from a dogpile so any effort to combat that is appreciated because it's coming from a good place.

I think there's issues with the current implementation that are going to feed into perceived biases between users and staff (see this thread for examples).

That said if I was going to implement this feature the design might look like this:
1) Every post as a "submit for highlighting" (because we can't call it "like") button
2) User toggleable, both seeing the highlight graphic/border, and the ability to see/use the "submit for highlighting" button
3) when a post reaches a staff determined threshold a report is generated for that post just like highlights are now.
4) staff decides if the post is highlightable

If folks don't want to interact with the system, toggle it off. Staff keeps the option to guard against problematic brigading by having the final say. If you want to further guard against brigading keep it to "member" status accounts to prevent folks from signing up just to highlight some junk.
And having something like that could also put it in a separate, lower priority, queue instead of clogging up the main report queue with stuff that isn't actually reportable
 

echoshifting

very salt heavy
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,423
The Negative Zone
I've talked with mods endlessly about giving things to the community, this is one of them. I want more but honestly, some of the reactions make me question whether it is worth it at all.

Have you seen how discouraging the poll results were for things like inclusitivity and representation. Probably not because we ended up killing such polls almost every time. If you think that our forum is full of compassionate, understanding people who are also not internet users who have been over multiple decades now, conditioned by consumerism, social media and entertainment to be reactionary and often hyperbolic or worse yet dismissive in their online interactions I don't know what to tell you.

It isn't just important topics either. There is endless console wars. Trolling each other "for some fun and laughs" in typical internet fashion. Sometimes there are valid criticism that can be subtle or dogwhistling or inappropriate in some ways. You could read an otherwise great post and maybe highlight it. You might not catch the comment that calls out the problematic nature within the post. Others might not as well and so a post with inflammatory or inappropriate content continues on highlighted. This will only further serve to frustrate members. The amount of of "fuck you, got mine" type posts that users will casually endorse. The "I'm just here to talk about games, this is issue is important but I'm not here to talk about that and it doesn't need to be in this topic". The "this is fine to me" handwaving. "All the [minority status] friends I have say..." type posts. The dogpiling over something minor. The snark that made you laugh at the expense of another member. The us vs them mentality across threads, against different communities, against staff etc.

As a moderator, I have been forced to view things with a lot of intersectional considerations. I still make a lot of mistakes. So yes. Forgive me if I don't feel confident that giving users the keys won't result in messes that we'll have to step into and moderate, likely leading to pointless bans and frustrations all around. You have something? Our users will argue over it. Some of them to the graves of their accounts if they are passionate enough. Look no further than this thread where users feel like quitting over it. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, people feel how they feel and will have disagreements. I trust members to make mistakes. We all do. I don't want to ban people for them/situations caused so if looking through and denying some of the highlight requests leads to less of it then so be it.

Respectfully, and with appreciation for your honesty, this doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in this endeavor. I know you all go through a lot of things with this community I can't see and do not understand, but if that's how you feel about the community as a whole, you're not well-positioned to highlight the things that make this a cool and fun place to be.

Especially the bolded. Users saying they want to quit over this? That's not a driving sentiment in this thread that I have seen. It's maybe one or two hyperbolic, apoplectic people at best. It's not even worthy of a call-out, let alone a sentiment that should be painted across the community. I'm not sure why it's even worth mentioning in your post, in fact it undermines every point you are trying to make here.
 

SCUMMbag

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,809
I realise your post probably didn't deserve all of this response but I'm tired of people trying to paint moderators like the forum's biggest asshole.

I don't think anyone who posts regularly and engages with the community at large thinks that the mods are the biggest assholes but if moderators plan on having a heavier hand in discussions at large on the forum, then there needs to be more transparency, openness and impactful discourse with the community on the direction of the site as a whole.

If the site has gone to the point that moderation can't trust the community to highlight their best content, then I think it's only natural that the community won't have faith in moderation to behave within the best interest of the community and ultimately widen the rift.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,206
Respectfully, and with appreciation for your honesty, this doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in this endeavor. I know you all go through a lot of things with this community I can't see and do not understand, but if that's how you feel about the community as a whole, you're not well-positioned to highlight the things that make this a cool and fun place to be.

Especially the bolded. Users saying they want to quit over this? That's not a driving sentiment in this thread that I have seen. It's maybe one or two hyperbolic, apoplectic people at best. It's not even worthy of a call-out, let alone a sentiment that should be painted across the community. I'm not sure why it's even worth mentioning in your post, in fact it undermines every point you are trying to make here.

You make a good point, and this is something I mentioned earlier - there was not universal opposition to this feature. The early reactions to the thread were positive, and I was kind of surprised to come back to people being negative. I myself only saw one person threatening to quit over this feature, so I don't think that is really worth entertaining.

One thing that seems certain however, is that a few criteria have become blatantly obvious with any feature (including this one) that draws attention to positive posts:
  • The first being that community involvement appears to be something that those vocal in this thread desire. To what degree of involvement would be required and/or acceptable is up in the air right now. The only way anyone is going to find that out is to trial run features and see how well the community gets involved.
  • The second being that staff is unquestionably going to want to take preemptive, rather than a reactive approach, to abuse of any feature that is added. That means them screening and ultimately having the final say. Snormy's post makes that clear, and that's probably something that staff won't move on. So it is what it is, essentially.
Regarding the first of those two criteria - the report feature doesn't really seem like a good way to get that community involvement, and I can understand why people in this thread are suggesting everything from a reaction system to just full blown likes instead. When I think of reports, I typically associate them with "someone doing something bad", and I imagine that others do as well. I rarely think "It's a good idea to submit a POSITIVE report." So, I'm not really certain what the solution to that would be, and it sounds like the system is, as Snormy indicated, clumsy. But I would think that something else might be needed to make people actively suggest good posts to be highlighted?

I am still all in favor of such a system, and echo my previous statement of wanting to see the highlighting post feature have a genuine trial run. I also appreciate Snormy coming into this thread to offer their perspective. It is nice to hear more about the how and why behind the system, and why something is the way that it is.
 

Cenauru

Dragon Girl Supremacy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,174
I've talked with mods endlessly about giving things to the community, this is one of them. I want more but honestly, some of the reactions make me question whether it is worth it at all.

Have you seen how discouraging the poll results were for things like inclusitivity and representation. Probably not because we ended up killing such polls almost every time. If you think that our forum is full of compassionate, understanding people who are also not internet users who have been over multiple decades now, conditioned by consumerism, social media and entertainment to be reactionary and often hyperbolic or worse yet dismissive in their online interactions I don't know what to tell you.

It isn't just important topics either. There is endless console wars. Trolling each other "for some fun and laughs" in typical internet fashion. Sometimes there are valid criticism that can be subtle or dogwhistling or inappropriate in some ways. You could read an otherwise great post and maybe highlight it. You might not catch the comment that calls out the problematic nature within the post. Others might not as well and so a post with inflammatory or inappropriate content continues on highlighted. This will only further serve to frustrate members. The amount of of "fuck you, got mine" type posts that users will casually endorse. The "I'm just here to talk about games, this is issue is important but I'm not here to talk about that and it doesn't need to be in this topic". The "this is fine to me" handwaving. "All the [minority status] friends I have say..." type posts. The dogpiling over something minor. The snark that made you laugh at the expense of another member. The us vs them mentality across threads, against different communities, against staff etc.

As a moderator, I have been forced to view things with a lot of intersectional considerations. I still make a lot of mistakes. So yes. Forgive me if I don't feel confident that giving users the keys won't result in messes that we'll have to step into and moderate, likely leading to pointless bans and frustrations all around. You have something? Our users will argue over it. Some of them to the graves of their accounts if they are passionate enough. Look no further than this thread where users feel like quitting over it. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, people feel how they feel and will have disagreements. I trust members to make mistakes. We all do. I don't want to ban people for them/situations caused so if looking through and denying some of the highlight requests leads to less of it then so be it.

I realise your post probably didn't deserve all of this response but I'm tired of people trying to paint moderators like the forum's biggest asshole.
Yeah, all of this. I've seen how uncharitable members can be, I've personally experienced it firsthand both to me directly, and in threads involving trans people in general. I find it hard to trust the community with full control with features like these.
 
Feb 16, 2022
15,263
Based on all the suggestions here, one way this could be implemented taking into account both sides here is something like:

- Make an easier "button" to submit a post for highlight consideration, i.e. the proposed "hidden like" system
- Only notify moderators when the "likes" on a post have reached a certain threshold, to make it easier for mods to just see the ones the community feel strongly about
- Mods make a decision on whether to highlight the posts that have reached the "likes" threshold

I feel like that's a decent compromise. It's not fully in the hands of the community, but the community helps the mods see which posts they'd like to be considered. It feels like a better system than simply using the report feature.
 

Katana_Strikes

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,227
Based on all the suggestions here, one way this could be implemented taking into account both sides here is something like:

- Make an easier "button" to submit a post for highlight consideration, i.e. the proposed "hidden like" system
- Only notify moderators when the "likes" on a post have reached a certain threshold, to make it easier for mods to just see the ones the community feel strongly about
- Mods make a decision on whether to highlight the posts that have reached the "likes" threshold

I feel like that's a decent compromise. It's not fully in the hands of the community, but the community helps the mods see which posts they'd like to be considered. It feels like a better system than simply using the report feature.
And then when youve done all that is there any point? Like the threads probably moved on and no one gonna see it anyways. Seems a lot of effort to implement a feature, do all the busy work for everyone involved and then bam! We've moved on. Could only see the point in that in an OT but then just threadmark the comment. Why make another system.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,189
Morizora's Forest
If I came across as elitist and condescending then I apologise. It is not my intention. I have a tendency to get a bit wordy and I also can try to cushion sometimes where I might be cynical or critical based on having to view some of the worst of the forum. This type of cushioning can feel a bit condescending in a different as well and I ultimately went back and cut out some of stuff to try and keep the post a bit smaller and easier to read. I tried to be a bit more neutral and honest but yes certainly my cynicism and frustration came through when I was trying to express some of the difficulties in handling disagreements within the community at times. I know that members want to feel trusted and I'll say that trust, for me at least is not a binary/yes or no thing. I look at what is presented in front of me and try to navigate it as best I can. Every mistake a member makes is one that a mod is capable of as well. Moderators try to catch each other's mistakes and cover blind spots as best we can.

It isn't that I don't trust our members to make the good posts and highlights. I believe they will, truly. However I believe that there will be misuse, abuse and problems that will come with unrestricted usage. They may be accidental. They may only come from a minority of members but at the same time they can be damaging to the community and that is what I want to prevent as much as possible.

The likes or not likes argument simply feels pointless to me because don't see it changing anyone's opinions. Again, people will disagree and it is not really my place to say how you feel about it. I'm not really interested in joining the argument nor do I want to pick a side. I think the focus on whether it is or is not a like system doesn't change the feature from being what it currently is. While it is ultimately not important to me I accept it might be important to distinguish it for others. I simply don't have that much thought on it but given it was a bit of back and forth I felt I'd offer my thoughts which weren't much but ultimately came across as a bit dismissive because of it. When reading some of the comments and back and forth I just struggled to find anything meaningful to add to it. The only unique thought about it was a stray thought of "Maybe we should just call it Highlikes"... This error is an example of something we see in our community too. Sometimes a member makes a comment that comes across as dismissive. It is challenged and expanded upon later or sometimes the user doesn't respond and ends up moderated then details in an appeal which is unfortunately a little bit late but we still take into consideration. So yeah, you're not wrong to call this part of my post out.

I guess the argument is not about the naming but the perception that moderators are the gatekeepers and this isn't what the community likes but what the moderator likes. That isn't really how I view it but at the same time I stand by that it isn't my place to say how you should or shouldn't feel about it. Arguing this feels a little pointless to me and it feels like we retread familiar ground on the community vs mods stuff.

I understand people might not like this kind of thing where moderators might come in and say no to something. Where moderators explicitly lay out what is our expectations. Some members feel we are too light handed as well. I'm not going to pretend that I have never been 'my way or the highway' about some things before, in fact I have a recent example!
Information
Support and understanding towards fighting against sexism in our hobby is an expectation. Regardless of how you feel about the specifics of this game, this dev or whatever instance or example, this is an area we expect members to be mindful of. Do not be dismissive, troll or antagonistic.
I don't think I could be clearer on what I expect of our members in the above example. However, my expectations on how members feel about this feature isn't really an example of my way or the highway for me personally. Nor do I feel this way about looking at reports for highlight suggestions. I'm not going to ban or not ban your thoughts on this thing. If anything I simply wanted to acknowledge your thoughts on the feature and be ok with it. Also, while nobody challenged me on this staff post above I like to think there are exceptions to just about everything and no rule can be right 100% of the time, there is always the possibility I am wrong or could be better and so so I'm ultimately trying to be open minded about counter arguments to the above... but as a general rule, nah. My way or the highway for 99.9% of the times the post is relevant.

That's not a driving sentiment in this thread that I have seen. It's maybe one or two hyperbolic, apoplectic people at best. It's not even worthy of a call-out, let alone a sentiment that should be painted across the community. I'm not sure why it's even worth mentioning in your post, in fact it undermines every point you are trying to make here.
I also appreciate your honesty. It is clear that the example isn't interpreted entirely as I wanted and my cynicism after seeing some of the worse of the site and trying to express it has come off as a bit of an attack against the community. That is not what I want.

I've been told I give some members more time than I should. For better or worse, I have tried to listen to and understand even unpopular opinions, ones that I disagree with. I think it is incredibly easy to throw away a post you disagree with, especially if you dislike how it is written and it is unpopular or any number of reasons really. I could dive into my read and thoughts on the post itself but that isn't the point. The post is just a convenient on hand example of an opinion in the minority, it was less about whether I agree with it but rather I didn't expect it. I'm not trying to paint the community with it, that is the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying the community is not monolithic and we will disagree with each other in ways that you won't expect or sometimes fully comprehend. I'm saying that in disagreement, even if you are ultimately on the same side we can end up saying some rather insensitive things to our fellow members and it can escalate out of control.

Think of a post you shared in another thread about a different subject that falls into a minority opinion. Imagine if someone made a passing comment on it the way you have described this member's post. It doesn't feel very nice. This is perhaps a frustrating and unfavourable read of your current post though right? Unfortunately as a moderator I see situations like this that end up escalating regularly. It is part of what I want to avoid where possible.

A majority opinion doesn't necessarily make minority ones invalid. A lot of the other opinions in this thread, majority or otherwise I mostly agree with in some way. It was mostly the comment about lack of trust that I wanted to push back on. I trust that on the internet there will be trolls. I trust that among friends we sometimes might feel like being a bit cheeky and poke at each other. I am not doubting that majority of our members will use this feature correctly and responsibly. I am however doubting moderators would be able to keep up if the system is misused or other issues happening at scale. I am concerned with the fallout and frustrations from such possible occurrences. This doesn't mean I expect everyone to rush into doing this if I gave them the chance and again I apologise if I came off as painting everyone that way.

Regarding the first of those two criteria - the report feature doesn't really seem like a good way to get that community involvement, and I can understand why people in this thread are suggesting everything from a reaction system to just full blown likes instead. When I think of reports, I typically associate them with "someone doing something bad", and I imagine that others do as well. I rarely think "It's a good idea to submit a POSITIVE report." So, I'm not really certain what the solution to that would be, and it sounds like the system is, as Snormy indicated, clumsy. But I would think that something else might be needed to make people actively suggest good posts to be highlighted?

I am still all in favor of such a system, and echo my previous statement of wanting to see the highlighting post feature have a genuine trial run. I also appreciate Snormy coming into this thread to offer their perspective. It is nice to hear more about the how and why behind the system, and why something is the way that it is.

This is where I'm at too. The reporting stuff feels off. It was my primary issue at the beginning but it is what we have to work with am I'm still hoping it works out for the better despite the road bumps along the way. There are a number of ideas from other members that staff ultimately agree with in that it would pretty much be a straight up improvement. Such as not relying on reports. Counting hidden votes that fire off a report automatically sounds like instant improvement over what we have. I don't know if it is feasible change at this time. This system is what we got today and I suspect there are technical reasons for it being so clumsy. In theory if the feature as is gets some use and we get some feedback it would be easier to justify allocating resources to make the tool from scratch. On the other hand, if it doesn't work then it can go back to the drawing board and we move onto other ideas or it stays as a bit of a dormant feature for a while. I think tech team is still thinking on suggestions and possibilities as feedback comes in but this isn't going to magically change into a feature everyone wants over night. I also don't want to speak for the tech team on what happens and why. I literally do not really know.

I'm curious to see what posts members wants to highlight. Especially from threads I would probably not enter otherwise.

And then when youve done all that is there any point? Like the threads probably moved on and no one gonna see it anyways. Seems a lot of effort to implement a feature, do all the busy work for everyone involved and then bam! No one sees it anyways.
We have a highlights widget on the front page. It feels tucked away and not great to read/access. Front page, right side, scroll down and might need to be expanded to out. This is part of what I meant by it feels clumsy. I also believe the search of highlighted only posts is not working properly yet.
The idea is, maybe you just wanted to see what some other members thought was good or nice or funny and you can check this widget. And sure, it might not be for you or me but hopefully someone finds something they like or enjoy. That also includes finding a highlight organically just browsing.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,818
And then when youve done all that is there any point? Like the threads probably moved on and no one gonna see it anyways. Seems a lot of effort to implement a feature, do all the busy work for everyone involved and then bam! We've moved on. Could only see the point in that in an OT but then just threadmark the comment. Why make another system.

It makes even less sense to implement as-is. Staff already talk about being overwhelmed with the report queue. If anyone meaningfully engages with this highlight system, the report queue would increase multiple times over.

Likewise, it can already take days for a report to be actioned. Making it take substantially longer due to highlights is already bad, but what's the point of highilghts that arrive a week later when no one cares?
 

SCUMMbag

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,809
I understand people might not like this kind of thing where moderators might come in and say no to something. Where moderators explicitly lay out what is our expectations. Some members feel we are too light handed as well. I'm not going to pretend that I have never been 'my way or the highway' about some things before, in fact I have a recent example!

The issue isn't that a moderator comes in and says no to something. That's absolutely the role you folk do a good a job at shutting down unnecessary and/or inflammatory discussion.

The issue is that the moderators are the only ones with the power to say "yes" to something. I think the feature is underestimating the power of positive reinforcement has when it comes to influencing discussion. What it's going to lead to people is posters writing to please moderators as that's how you gain recognition and highlight on the forum.

Making and enforcing forum rules and a TOS to say "here's the things which we don't allow here" is much easier and clearer to the community at large than "do the thing we like and you may get a cookie". Will we have a list of things mods like or posting practices that are more likely to get highlighted? Cause if not, you're going to get people claiming favouritism and preferential treatment because you've created a black box that spits out highlights to the community at large.
 

construct

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Jun 5, 2020
8,217
東京
i don't think there's a good way to implement this. and any suggestions for more "like"-like features i find… disgusting

maybe i like era for different reasons than others, but for me forums are part of the golden age of the internet. while every other platform is feature-garbage'd out, forums specifically like resetera are stripped, simple and discussion driven. "quoting" is kind of already serves the same purpose, quoting drives the discussions in the way that communities want naturally. for better or worse obviously.

i've kind of always thought forum software being essentially impossible to modify as a blessing more than a curse. the less is more ethos that comes with that is a feature. i would love all features that are added to be completely optional and a priority at the inception of the feature.

that said, threadmarking is one of the few "recent" additions to forum software that is very much a net positive and has a lot of overlap with this idea. i would much rather take the color from this feature and add it to threadmarking instead.

there's also a whole site-politics part to this that i won't get into other than to say that maybe this isnt a great time for this.
 
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Snormy

I'll think about it
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,189
Morizora's Forest
The issue isn't that a moderator comes in and says no to something. That's absolutely the role you folk do a good a job at shutting down unnecessary and/or inflammatory discussion.

The issue is that the moderators are the only ones with the power to say "yes" to something. I think the feature is underestimating the power of positive reinforcement has when it comes to influencing discussion. What it's going to lead to people is posters writing to please moderators as that's how you gain recognition and highlight on the forum.

Making and enforcing forum rules and a TOS to say "here's the things which we don't allow here" is much easier and clearer to the community at large than "do the thing we like and you may get a cookie". Will we have a list of things mods like or posting practices that are more likely to get highlighted? Cause if not, you're going to get people claiming favouritism and preferential treatment because you've created a black box that spits out highlights to the community at large.

I think I understand it better now. Thanks for explaining it to me. I guess in my mind the users were the first to say yes when it was reported but I can see what you mean. However since it ultimately comes through moderation it feels less like the highlight is in the spirit of the community than it is in spirit of staff/moderators. There is a concern that members will then try to make posts based on what staff likes rather than what the community likes. I'll think on this.

Having done both making and enforcing rules as well as trying to explain on how to post a bit better I'm of the opinion it is situational and both can be quite difficult depending on what you're dealing with. I'll think on this also tho.

Got a few busy days ahead. I'll prob not be back in here for a while. Thanks for the feedback and please try to give the system a shot any way.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,206
So just an FYI to staff - if five or more posts get highlighted at once, there is no way to see the previous highlighted post, and know way to tell if either exactly five posts or more than five posts. This creates a User Experience (UX) problem as the current widget can only show five at a time.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,177
UK
I'm not as down on this as a lot of posters, and I just checked the latest highlighted posts and found some funny ones in threads I'd never normally have looked in, so that's a plus

I think a lot of the issue is these new features are just announced and rolled out at the same time, with no possible way for the community to provide their views and feedback. I do get that it's cool to work on stuff behind the scenes and then surprise us with something cool, but this has been the strategy for 7 years now and more often than not features come out with some huge issues that could have been addressed if they were demoed first

I'm talking about the new themes using a weirdly bright purple colour (which was changed after endless complaints) the way tags were implemented that made the forum a mess to read (the option to hide them was then added after endless complaints) the whole forum restructure (which was then reversed after endless complaints) etc

After 7 years, it's probably time to change how new features are rolled out. Maybe once you think something can be done, make a thread and ask for feedback first

The whole point of moderators is to serve the community, to enable it to thrive, and when a lot of stuff is just dumped on the community from the top down, without any consultation, then it kind of goes against the spirt of that.

Personally, I don't mind this feature, it's easy enough to ignore anyway if you don't like it, so really I just think new ideas and features need to be approached from a more community centric angle, and a less top down one. It's really depressing seeing how excited you are in the OP to announce something, only for users to pick apart all the things that were not considered, and it always results in long mod posts where we're told the community are a problem and can't be trusted which is another bummer

These threads would go so much better if you gave everyone a week to pitch their views and ideas first, then you could actually launch a feature in a state people are generally happy with from the get go.

Either way, I appreciate the hard work you put in behind the scenes, and I'm glad features and policy are being looked at that try and highlight the more positive aspects of the community
 
Aug 31, 2019
2,827
I don't have a concrete opinion on whether this is a good idea one way or another, I'd want to wait and see. But I do have some specific feedback.

Having the feature hidden behind a "(!) Report" button is not great UX, as this button will be seen by the majority as a purely negative action, not also a positive one. If the forum software allows it you should consider splitting it out into two buttons, even if it goes to the same place on the backend.

Some button ideation to get you started:
  • Support / Report
  • Praise / Raise
  • Yay / Nay
  • Hot / Not
  • Promote / Demote
  • Rizz / L Rizz
  • Stan / Can't Stand
  • Neat / Delete
  • Rate / Debate
  • Mate / Maaaaate
  • Fire / Fire this out of a cannon
  • ... and so on
 

BrandoBoySP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,196
This feature is also not intended to replace threadmarks which are a more permanent feature to highlight important updates or informational posts within a thread. These features might work together but generally speaking serve different purposes. If you see a threadmark, you should probably read it to better understand either the rules or the topic at hand.

Thanks for this - it actually helped me understand the point of highlighting a bit better. I'd initially thought that it would be better to just add a highlighted border to threadmarks, but I can see the difference between informational posts (updates on a situation; sources; cultural context) and what highlights aim to do now. Since highlights are intended to encourage better discussion and behavior, I personally don't think that highlighting funny posts fall within that scope, FWIW.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,490
It isn't that I don't trust our members to make the good posts and highlights. I believe they will, truly. However I believe that there will be misuse, abuse and problems that will come with unrestricted usage. They may be accidental. They may only come from a minority of members but at the same time they can be damaging to the community and that is what I want to prevent as much as possible.

Yes...but that is why moderators exist. Using that logic, then even posting shouldn't be allowed, since some people do it very poorly and with bad intentions. I think the main thrust of all this discussion is that mods (perhaps correctly) don't trust the community to highlight posts, and that the community (perhaps correctly) don't trust mods to highlight posts. Scrap the whole thing.
 

Vertpin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,999
Yes...but that is why moderators exist. Using that logic, then even posting shouldn't be allowed, since some people do it very poorly and with bad intentions. I think the main thrust of all this discussion is that mods (perhaps correctly) don't trust the community to highlight posts, and that the community (perhaps correctly) don't trust mods to highlight posts. Scrap the whole thing.
Judging by how B-Dubs changed his mind (deleted post where he mentions they won't be rolling this out, then post claiming "nah"), and how the mods have abandoned this thread...I doubt they care, and will launch this.

I wonder how much of this is being enforced by higher level staff? This feature seems like something that based on the critical feedback should not be rolled out, easily. Instead, the mods here are choosing to defend it and deflect criticism about it (and yes, it is a 'like' system, no matter how much you claim it isn't one).
 

Spoit

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,182
Though looking at the homepage, there haven't been any highlighted posts since the 18th either
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,206
Though looking at the homepage, there haven't been any highlighted posts since the 18th either

The date on the highlighted post is misleading - that shows when the post was made, not when it was highlighted.

There was just a new highlighted post added today, and as Dakkon noted, one of theirs just got highlighted yesterday.