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Anthony Mackie asked about fans who ship Bucky and Sam in the MCU; immediately puts foot in mouth

ZeoVGM

ZeoVGM

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Oct 25, 2017
76,239
Providence, RI
variety.com

Anthony Mackie on His ‘Promotion’ to Captain America, and Sam and Bucky’s ‘Bromance’ on ‘Falcon and Winter Soldier’

Anthony Mackie on his promotion to Captain America, plus "WandaVision's" Paul Bettany on a Marvel episode of Variety Awards Circuit podcast.
variety.com variety.com

The other half of Sam's journey on the show is the transformation of his relationship with Bucky Barnes (Sebastian Stan) from simmering resentment to a lasting and profound friendship. That translated into several scenes of emotional and physical familiarity between Sam and Bucky that some fans interpreted as a budding romance — similar to how some Marvel fans desired Bucky and the first Captain America, Chris Evans' Steve Rogers, to be a couple.
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Mackie points out that he's played in these kinds of waters before, in an episode of "Black Mirror" in which he and Yahya Abdul-Mateen II star as best friends who play an immersive, virtual reality video game that allows them to simulate being a man and woman in a sexual relationship. But he resists an interpretation that Sam and Bucky are sexually or romantically attracted to each other.
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"So many things are twisted and convoluted. There's so many things that people latch on to with their own devices to make themselves relevant and rational," he says. "The idea of two guys being friends and loving each other in 2021 is a problem because of the exploitation of homosexuality. It used to be guys can be friends, we can hang out, and it was cool. You would always meet your friends at the bar, you know. You can't do that anymore, because something as pure and beautiful as homosexuality has been exploited by people who are trying to rationalize themselves. So something that's always been very important to me is showing a sensitive masculine figure. There's nothing more masculine than being a superhero and flying around and beating people up. But there's nothing more sensitive than having emotional conversations and a kindred spirit friendship with someone that you care about and love."
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Naturally, it is now the #3 trend on Twitter:





 
boxter432

boxter432

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
9,384
I can't meet a friend at a bar anymore? well fuck. I mean I couldn't for a year+ due to Covid, but no other reason.

" It used to be guys can be friends, we can hang out, and it was cool. You would always meet your friends at the bar, you know. You can't do that anymore, because something as pure and beautiful as homosexuality has been exploited by people who are trying to rationalize themselves. "
not even sure what his point is lol.
 
Gustaf

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
so if i understand correctly, he is saying everything is now "gay shiping", because gay paople want to rationalize themselves, so they project these things into these characters.

wouldn't be a problem if there were more characters like these, so lgbtq+ people wouln'd need to instert themselves into cis chracters
 
Osu 16 Bit

Osu 16 Bit

QA Lead at NetherRealm Studios
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Oct 27, 2017
2,935
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I don't quite understand what he means. Using the words exploited and rationalize and the phrase "you can't do that anymore" makes it sound negative, but I don't get the impression that's how he meant it to come off. Like, surely he understands why people do it.

I am guessing a follow up where he says he misspoke is coming up.
 
Weiss

Weiss

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Oct 25, 2017
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Bi dude here, kinda feel the need to clarify that.

It's possible I am misreading here or it's specifically about the word choice, I honestly have no idea what the hell he was aiming for with "exploiting", but I do think it is demonstrably true that platonic male friendships are often seen as romantic, or needing to be romantic, and I feel this is something that's come about because we've been so deluged in heteronormative media for so long that now that we've had the curtain removed and seeing how much of a goddamn mess it's been we're in a scramble to start correcting it however we can, and wanting to see romances between Queer men is part of that. I'm not gonna police anyone's ship, but, like, it's okay that the guy playing Falcon says out loud "yeah they're straight and they are close friends who are emotionally open to each other."

Which is to say healthy platonic male friendships and male romances both deserve to exist, and we've been capitulating too long to the standards of toxic masculinity and dudebro culture. I don't think the answer to that is to discount platonic relationships between men as something not worth depicting. To be perfectly frank, yes, even if I am someone who can and has fallen for other men, I do think it's true that emotional availability between straight dudes is something that needs to be depicted, because straight dudes have been fucked up for a long ass time by the standards of toxic masculinity.
 
808s & Villainy

808s & Villainy

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Oct 27, 2017
42,871
I'm not sure what the "exploiting" part means, but he's got a point that you should be able to have close straight male friendships without people assuming they're gay. That's basically just combating toxic masculinity

edit: I guess what he means by the "exploitation of being homosexuality" is media having ambiguously gay characters, without ever confirming them, just to score brownie points despite not committing. And this being conflating with straight male friends who are especially affectionate?
 
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Mr. Snuffleupagus

Mr. Snuffleupagus

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Oct 30, 2017
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Not a great response, doubly so when I felt that he did a great job of portraying a bi/questioning man in Black Mirror's Striking Vipers episode.

I agree with Gustaf 's point about there wouldn't be a need for this if modern media covered a broad range of LGBTQI+ characters and personalities.
 
Geode

Geode

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Oct 27, 2017
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808s & Villainy said:
I'm not sure what the "exploiting" part means, but he's got a point that you should be able to have close straight male friendships without people assuming they're gay. That's basically just combating toxic masculinity
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Yeah, I don't know what he's trying to say either, but I think it's along the lines of what you said.
 

Deleted member 83599

Banned
Oct 22, 2020
6,280
His word choice was questionable, but I get the point that he's making, and as a gay man, I don't see anything particularly wrong with it.
 
shan780

shan780

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Nov 2, 2017
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UK
while I think he's definitely fumbled it a bit, there's something to be said for close platonic friendships between men being allowed to exist without it having to be romantic, and without them having to be secretly gay.

toxic masculinity has led a lot of men to reject and mock the idea of being sensitive and vulnerable with other men, and I think it's important that kind of relationship is normalized. I see it as an extension of the idea that being sensitive and emotional with other dudes is "gay" (used as an insult) that was common when I was in high school

it's totally fine that Sam and Bucky are two men that support each other emotionally in a platonic way. I say all of this as a bi guy myself
 
mopinks

mopinks

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Oct 27, 2017
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yeah I think I'm in the "he was trying to make a reasonable point but completely beefed it" camp on this one
 
MadLaughter

MadLaughter

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Oct 25, 2017
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Mackie's trying to wing it here and just kind of whiffs. There are seeds of ideas about how shipping fandom often rejects the idea of platonic companionship, but I don't know what he's going for with 'exploiting' and saying people are trying to make themselves relevant. He's going off the cuff and trying to be honest that it can be tough when his portrayals are interpreted in ways not intended, and I imagine it burns you out a bit to have to face that every second of every day, but yeah it's probably not something to complain about until you know exactly how to articulate it.
 
Magneto

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808s & Villainy said:
I'm not sure what the "exploiting" part means, but he's got a point that you should be able to have close straight male friendships without people assuming they're gay. That's basically just combating toxic masculinity

edit: I guess what he means by the "exploitation of being homosexuality" is media having ambiguously gay characters, without ever confirming them, just to score brownie points despite not committing. And this being conflating with straight male friends who are especially affectionate?
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This is how i understand what he said tbh.
 
Blader

Blader

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Oct 27, 2017
26,663
Probably not the way I would've phrased it lol, but he's right that some people are def quick to ship same-sex platonic friends as secret gay romances, missing the point of why the platonic element of the relationship is important to begin with.
 
808s & Villainy

808s & Villainy

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Oct 27, 2017
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nonoriri said:


This tweet summarizes my feelings.
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I think " Stop writing queer love off as platonic friendship" is literally what he meant by exploitation. Sort of hinting at queer love, but not really. But at the same time, the solution isn't to call platonic friendships "homosexual friendship". That's problematic in its own regard and no different from people maliciously saying "That's gay"

edit: "homosocial" not "homosexual". Never heard of that term before
 
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SindbadtheSailor

SindbadtheSailor

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Jan 31, 2018
1,430
There is a ridiculous amount of shipping in popular media. It's okay to be platonic friends without and undercurrent of romance. I don't get the exploitation part in the quote but the other part I agree with.
 

Deleted member 83599

Banned
Oct 22, 2020
6,280
People gotta give folks who are earnestly trying to be allies some latitude to express their opinions and support imperfectly.

This applies to any number of situations. People screw up their words sometimes and it doesn't mean they're not allies.
 
DiceHands

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Oct 27, 2017
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Gegz said:
This is how i understand what he said tbh.
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Thats the way I took it as well. Not sure if he means this but there is a very strange crowd out there that loves to pair up fictional characters inappropriately (you see it a lot on twitter and various forums), but Im not sure I would call that "exploitation of homosexuality". Its more so diehard fans of a series that "ship" two characters together in a way that is not depicted on screen, but they would like to see.

The part about not being able to go out to a bar with your buddies without being identified as gay was a weird one though. Not sure I see what he means there.
 

Deleted member 64609

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Mar 18, 2020
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Even with the best intentions there was no way Mackie was getting out of that clean, poor bastard.

I did think it eas weird people were so eager to ship them when they had little chemistry of any kind but as long as people aren't sending you threats, let em cook
 
est1992

est1992

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Oct 27, 2017
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I understand what he's trying to say. A lot of people mad with him about not making his character gay and calling him homophobic when he's demonstrated in the past he doesn't have a problem playing a gay character. The fight is with Marvel for not giving the representation they need.

But for the people that try to actively ship them together, did they just completely ignore when Bucky was flirting with Sam's sister?
 
ItIsOkBro

ItIsOkBro

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I understand what he means but I think he directed his ire at the wrong thing.
 

Deleted member 64609

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Mar 18, 2020
2,434
est1992 said:
I understand what he's trying to say. A lot of people mad with him about not making his character gay and calling him homophobic when he's demonstrated in the past he doesn't have a problem playing a gay character. The fight is with Marvel for not giving the representation they need.

But for the people that try to actively ship them together, did they just completely ignore when Bucky was flirting with Sam's sister?
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James was definitely for the sisters but you know how some shippers are with that…
 
MDSVeritas

MDSVeritas

Gameplay Programmer, Sony Santa Monica
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Oct 25, 2017
1,029
808s & Villainy said:
I think " Stop writing queer love off as platonic friendship" is literally what he meant by exploitation. Sort of hinting at queer love, but not really. But at the same time, the solution isn't to call platonic friendships "homosexual friendship". That's problematic in its own regard and no different from people maliciously saying "That's gay"
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They used the phrase "homosocial friendship" not "homosexual friendship", it's just a way of describing a friendship between two people of the same gender.
 

Nerokis

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Oct 25, 2017
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Bit of a baffling statement right there. There is some truth at the core of it, like that there is a worthwhileness to healthy platonic friendships being represented, but all the stuff surrounding that is odd. Like, what does "exploiting" homosexuality mean, exactly? In what sense is it a problem for two straight guys to hit up a bar in 2021? Also, I think he's misunderstanding shippers to some extent, and I don't put this on him specifically but it kind of annoys me because we're talking about Disney characters here. It's not a matter of getting things twisted, or saying that sensitivity/healthy friendship/whatever else = gay. It's two things, mainly: one, just having fun reading characters this or that way, regardless of authorial intent; and two, claiming space in a world where not enough of it is given, as represented by the amazing dearth of queerness in Disney media.

est1992 said:
I understand what he's trying to say. A lot of people mad with him about not making his character gay and calling him homophobic when he's demonstrated in the past he doesn't have a problem playing a gay character. The fight is with Marvel for not giving the representation they need.

But for the people that try to actively ship them together, did they just completely ignore when Bucky was flirting with Sam's sister?
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Yeah, quite possible he's been exposed to some wilding out shippers and this has affected his wording a bit, lol. Easy to forget how fucking exhausting fandom might be from the perspective of creators.
 
KungFuKunta

KungFuKunta

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Jun 7, 2021
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Every time there's ever been a buddy show/movie there's probably some hopeless romantics shipping them out there, why is this a new thing?
 
FusedAtoms

FusedAtoms

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3,612
808s & Villainy said:
I'm not sure what the "exploiting" part means, but he's got a point that you should be able to have close straight male friendships without people assuming they're gay. That's basically just combating toxic masculinity

edit: I guess what he means by the "exploitation of being homosexuality" is media having ambiguously gay characters, without ever confirming them, just to score brownie points despite not committing. And this being conflating with straight male friends who are especially affectionate?
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Yeah this is what I think he was trying to say but said incredibly poorly. People always try to over explain these things and end up making it sound a million times worse.

My only ship from that show Is Bucky and Sam's sister, and it's just to see Sam spread some premium salt in Cap4 lol
 
nonoriri

nonoriri

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Apr 30, 2020
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808s & Villainy said:
I think " Stop writing queer love off as platonic friendship" is literally what he meant by exploitation. Sort of hinting at queer love, but not really. But at the same time, the solution isn't to call platonic friendships "homosexual friendship". That's problematic in its own regard and no different from people maliciously saying "That's gay"
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Not that I'm trying to intentionally read him badly here, but I really can't see how that makes sense. It wouldn't be exploitative, it would be dismissive?
 
est1992

est1992

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Oct 27, 2017
8,205
Nerokis said:
Yeah, quite possible he's been exposed to some wilding out shippers and this has affected his wording a bit, lol. Easy to forget how fucking exhausting fandom might be from the perspective of creators.
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The artwork that I've seen just scrolling through his trending topic on Twitter is WILD lmao
 
DiceHands

DiceHands

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Oct 27, 2017
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est1992 said:
I understand what he's trying to say. A lot of people mad with him about not making his character gay and calling him homophobic when he's demonstrated in the past he doesn't have a problem playing a gay character. The fight is with Marvel for not giving the representation they need.

But for the people that try to actively ship them together, did they just completely ignore when Bucky was flirting with Sam's sister?
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Im surprised to hear people were getting that vibe from them. Tbh, their relationship on screen didnt scream romantic at all to me, in fact, I dont even think their chemistry on screen is all that great together to begin with, lol.
 
krazen

krazen

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Oct 27, 2017
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So, lets see how the apology post goes. I am expecting Mackie to tell Mahvels lawyers that "Ive got it" and just fucks up further by tomorrow morning, perhaps their relationship becomes canon as a result, lol
 
MDSVeritas

MDSVeritas

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808s & Villainy said:
Lol, I didn't notice that. I've never even heard of that term before. Why not just use the term "platonic"? Is there a difference?
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I mean in this case platonic relationship could mean a non-romantic relationship between anyone of any gender. When discussing this particular topic the term "homosocial" is relevant because the conversation centers on how relationships between two men are perceived. Homosocial is definitely a slightly more academic-y term where they could have just said "friendship between two men" but specifying that it's homosocial friendships in particular being discussed here is relevant here because the topic has a lot to do with how society views specifically relationships between people of the same gender.
 
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