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Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,417
apnews.com

Visa fees for international artists to tour in the US shot up 250% in April. It could be devastating

Artists, advocacy groups and immigration lawyers are concerned it could have devastating effects on emerging talent worldwide and local music economies in the U.S.

On April 1, the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services instituted a 250% visa fee increase for global musicians hoping to tour in the U.S.

Artists, advocacy groups and immigration lawyers are concerned it could have devastating effects on emerging talent worldwide and local music economies in the U.S.

WHAT ARE THE COSTS?


If you're a musician from outside of the United States hoping to perform stateside and you filed visa paperwork before April 1, the cost per application was $460. After that date? $1,615 to $1,655.

Bands and ensemble groups pay per performer. A standard rock band of four members went from paying $1,840 to around $6,460. And if you can't wait a few months for approval, add $2,805 per application for expedited processing.

If the application is not accepted, that money is not refunded — on top of losses from a canceled tour and missing out on "significant, potentially career-changing opportunities," says Jen Jacobsen, executive director at The Artist Rights Alliance.

If a musician has support staff, a backing band or other employees to bring on the tour, these individuals need visas, too.

WHO DOES THIS HARM?


Independent and emerging talent, as well as ensembles and groups.

" Dua Lipa, the Rolling Stones, they're going to pay these fees. It's not even a rounding error. They could misplace $1,200 in their budgets and they wouldn't even notice," says Castro. "It's the indie rock bands, niche acts, jazz musicians from Japan who will be affected."

Jacobsen points out that there will be ripple effects as well: Musicians, drivers, tour managers and beyond who would be hired to work with international talent will lose work, venues will lose fruitful bookings, festivals that focus on international talent will reduce in size, the costs of tickets could increase and so on.

She says these fee increases could affect U.S. music culture — "the richness of the music ecosystem in terms of diversity of genres."

If lesser known, global genre artists cannot perform in the U.S., audiences will miss out on a critical cultural exchange. "We need the marketplace to be friendly and accessible to all those different types of musicians," she says.
Local economies, too, will feel the result: "It's not just the mid-sized venue in Cleveland that will feel it, but the parking lot down the street, the restaurants and bars people go to before and after."

And there could be long-term consequences that have yet to be seen. "There is an absolute concern that there would be a reciprocal effect," says Jacobson.

If the U.S. is making it increasingly difficult and expensive for musicians to come here, "Why wouldn't other countries do the same to our artists?"

This fucking sucks. Canada will also likely be affected by this, since a lot of international bands tour Canada as part of wider North American/US tours. Now, they might not bother.

Another thing that the article doesn't really go into, is that it will affect local US bands too. A lot of local bands get exposure by being openers for international artists. Losing those artists means local artists may lose out too. And of course everyone else in the industry, from running merch, promoters, venues etc
 

XShagrath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,203
That fucking blows.

I know some promoters that are not going to be too happy, and the fest I typically go to every year is probably gonna get its ticket prices increased by quite a bit since almost every band is international.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,368
Seattle
They need to institute a sliding scale for performers that can pay more

Looks like they haven't had a price increase in 8 years, but should still need a sliding scale
 

Ceerious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,232
Asian
This is one example of a trend of recent visa policy changes in North America. For example, many North American colleges have increased the non-refundable fee for international students to reserve a seat to study this year. As a result, many international students who've been offered the opportunity to study in North America are unable to start their education as anticipated. A $500 or $1,000 increase is enough to dramatically change the path of their lives.
 

btags

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,095
Gaithersburg MD
Everything in terms of immigration fees has shot up ridiculously over the past few years. Glad my wife got her h1b and green card when she did.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,301
It's the small artists that will always take the brunt of the impact. They should just collect a percentage after the tour is over.

They need to institute a sliding scale for performers that can pay more

Looks like they haven't had a price increase in 8 years, but should still need a sliding scale

100%. You make more = You pay more.
 

Jiffy Smooth

Member
Dec 12, 2018
465
This is good, indie bands have had it too easy lately. Squash touring like we squashed album sales and everything else. Then we'll see who the real stars are: the immigration officials.
 

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,876
this explains why some of my fav international artists didnt announce any american dates for their new albums
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,074
Oh hey, my industry getting traction in mainstream news. Yeah, fee increases were long expected, just not that much. Still, frankly I'd say the new fees are mostly all justified.


They need to institute a sliding scale for performers that can pay more

Looks like they haven't had a price increase in 8 years, but should still need a sliding scale

A sliding scale is unlawful.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,393
America
I want to understand why USCIS costs rose by 250% because fees are supposed to only cover processing costs, not making a profit.

So, what was it?
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,718
I want to understand why USCIS costs rose by 250% because fees are supposed to only cover processing costs, not making a profit.

So, what was it?


WHY HAVE THE FEES JUMPED SO MUCH?



Two reasons: They hadn't in some time, and because immigration officials are scrutinizing the process more closely.



The last increase was in 2016, when fees grew from $325 to $460.



The U.S. government is "putting more and more burden on the application process," says Castro of BAL Sports and Entertainment Practice, which specializes in visas for musicians, entertainers and athletes.



He says 20 years ago, applications were just two or three pages. Now, they're 15 or 20 pages.



"And those are just the forms before supporting evidence," he says. "Now I'm submitting documents that are 200 pages, 300 pages long just to explain why this band should be traveling throughout the United States."



Officials "might have done better to look at inefficiencies in the system to save money," he says.



Paisey says he's heard that the increase will allow the USCIS to "get rid of the backlog... But is that because you're going to employ more staff or is it probably because you're going to get less applications?" he wonders, because it's going to benefit "people who can afford to go than rather than who wants to go or has the fan base to go."
 

Jakenbakin

"This guy are sick"
Member
Jun 17, 2018
11,880
That "could" in the title is being very generous. Those costs would be absolutely prohibitive to a TON of bands holy shit.
 
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Morrigan

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,417
Volimar tbh that's kind of a non-answer. Sure, "they hadn't in some time", but it doesn't explain why the increase is so high. And they say the process now has more pages, but it doesn't explain why it needed to increase this way beyond vague "oh we gotta prevent abuse" BS. It's ridiculous.

Still, frankly I'd say the new fees are mostly all justified.
How so? This could destroy the touring industry and harm small and medium artists the most. Justified my arse.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,285
Like the article says, this is going to fuck everyone from the stadiums to the dive bars to the places everyone goes to eat once the show is over.
 

Emwitus

The Fallen
Feb 28, 2018
4,333
apnews.com

Visa fees for international artists to tour in the US shot up 250% in April. It could be devastating

Artists, advocacy groups and immigration lawyers are concerned it could have devastating effects on emerging talent worldwide and local music economies in the U.S.










This fucking sucks. Canada will also likely be affected by this, since a lot of international bands tour Canada as part of wider North American/US tours. Now, they might not bother.

Another thing that the article doesn't really go into, is that it will affect local US bands too. A lot of local bands get exposure by being openers for international artists. Losing those artists means local artists may lose out too. And of course everyone else in the industry, from running merch, promoters, venues etc
Don't nobody look up the cost of a typical green card application For poor people immigrating here.
 

Melody Shreds

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,609
Terminal Dogma
Oh hey, my industry getting traction in mainstream news. Yeah, fee increases were long expected, just not that much. Still, frankly I'd say the new fees are mostly all justified.




A sliding scale is unlawful.
Big artists won't even feel it while it will will destroy smaller artists.
All this does is give the already well off less competition. This will massively hurt the underground and indie scenes. most metal bands can barely afford to tour as it is.
 

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,699
It affects the big artists too. If you stifle the activity of the smaller artists, then they will have fewer ideas to rip off!
 

Ephonk

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,951
Belgium
All the fees will be passed down to the customer/fans and things will remain as normal. Still fucked.
It's not really. Most smaller european bands (for example) will just decide not to go. It was already very expensive to tour in the US. Besides the often expensive airline tickets, difficulties in getting equipment there and the already complicated (and expensive) VISA work.

We once had the opportunity to play 3 free showcases (not payed shows, showcases!) on SXSW, one of them for a Billboard event, and we were denied entrance because of stricter VISA problems (it was also the first month of the trump presidency where they became a lot stricter on VISA issues).

Doing a small tour of 5-10 shows is now almost impossible cost-wise, and you already need a big network/exposure to do tours with more showdates (and enough time to do them, as most shows are near the end of the week/weekend). And the more time in between, the costlier because you have to arrange hotels/food/travel expenses for the whole band.
I'm not even talking about wages, because it's very well possible you tour with professional musicians who do this for a living. And we don't expect people to work for free.

In comparison - a US band can tour the EU with a regular travel visa (that costs ~ € 100 I think) for up to 90 days. Organizers need to pay a tax on fees payed to foreign artists (in Belgium this is 18%) - but that is a cost for the organizer - not the band. And bands playing in the EU normally get food and hotel arrangements (depending from country to country) as part of the deal (in the US this isn't always the case - you have to arrange it yourself).
 
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julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,390
How is this even minimally reasonable? To most if not all other places in the world, this cost is significantly more difficult than to someone in the US because of lower salaries. This seems custom made to keep people out unless they're making obscene amounts of money.
 

Polk

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
4,254
That's absurd price hike.
Hey, maybe bands will do more EU dates thanks to that.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,074
Volimar tbh that's kind of a non-answer. Sure, "they hadn't in some time", but it doesn't explain why the increase is so high. And they say the process now has more pages, but it doesn't explain why it needed to increase this way beyond vague "oh we gotta prevent abuse" BS. It's ridiculous.

How so? This could destroy the touring industry and harm small and medium artists the most. Justified my arse.

So, this can be quite lengthy to explain and technical. But this is my wheelhouse, so I'll try to explain all the aspects as concise as possible.

First, "small" artists don't get visas to tour the U.S. There is no visa that simply allows for any artist from another country to come to the U.S. to perform. You are either being invited as part of a culturally unique program (P-3 visa), a reciprocal exchange agreement (P-2 visa), or you are a member of an internationally recognized entertainment group (P-1B visa). Internationally recognized meaning that your group has been established for a minimum of one year and is recognized internationally as "outstanding" in the discipline for a sustained and substantial period of time.

So, no small time act is qualifying for a P-1B visa and any such act invited as part of a P-3 or P-2 visa would have their petitioning organization assisting in paying the required fees and assisting with the visa application process.

Now, when it comes to the fees we have to get into how U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) are funded and determine fees. To start, everyone knew fees for all visa categories would have to be raised soon given the fact that they've been the same for a long time now and the increase in the amount of applications USCIS has been receiving over the years. That said, many were a bit shocked by the amount of the increase. It's not completely unjustified, but simply higher than people expected. But, let's get into funding and fees.

USCIS, similar to the Postal Service, is self-funded. They are funded entirely by the fees they charge for these visa applications. Thus, technically, the more applications they receive and the more personnel required to process said applications, the more fees they will have to charge. Unfortunately, because this is the government, it's not so simple. You see, it's not just that USCIS self-funds themselves with their fees and that's it. Rather, USCIS has to calculate and tell Congress each year how much they anticipate they will make each year through their application fees. And then Congress allocates that amount to them. USCIS then MUST actually make that amount back, otherwise they are in violation of the law.

But, to make things more complicated, there is another law that requires USCIS fees to be "reasonable." So, they cannot simply jack up prices to whatever they feel like, their fees must be reasonable and they MUST provide proof regarding how such fees are reasonable. And this is where we get into the aspect that USCIS is legislated to be inefficient. You see, as part of this reasonable analysis, USCIS will show how long it takes an officer to process a specific application type. So let's use the P-2 visa described above, let's say it takes the average officer about 5 hours to process such a P-2 visa. And so, USCIS calculates that 5 hours to argue that processing such a visa costs this much money and so a reasonable fee is $1,000.

Now, let's say USCIS improves efficiency, such as by allowing filing online, and manages to cut that 5 hours down to 2 hours. What does that mean? Well, it means that the fee is no longer reasonable. So, they are required to lower fees. But lowered fees means they make less money, which also means they cannot process as many applications in a timely manner. And they can only request money from Congress as they can show they will make every year. And so, USCIS is essentially legislated to be inefficient. Which is also why the majority of applications are still handled physically, through paper filings. And they must perform a balancing act of raising fees to meet the increased demand in U.S. visa sponsorship, but also be an amount that is still reasonable which also means just inefficient enough to justify the increased fees.


So...yeah.
 
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Morrigan

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,417
So, this can be quite lengthy to explain and technical. But this is my wheelhouse, so I'll try to explain all the aspects as concise as possible.

(snip)

So...yeah.
All this tells me is that the law regarding touring artists is completely stupid, unsustainable, and hostile to the arts. A self-made bureaucratic nightmare, that no other country goes through.

Don't defend this nonsense just because "it's the law". If the law is broken then it must be repealed or changed.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,074
All this tells me is that the law regarding touring artists is completely stupid, unsustainable, and hostile to the arts. A self-made bureaucratic nightmare, that no other country goes through.

Don't defend this nonsense just because "it's the law". If the law is broken then it must be repealed or changed.

That won't be happening for the foreseeable future. And even if an immigration reform bill ever does get passed, I doubt any changes would be made to artist visas. There is zero desire to decrease the requirements for artists coming to the U.S. to perform.