dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,225


Requests 2 and 32 show some chutzpah, to say the least. Rarely will you see a finer example of lawyer-ese than this:

"Apple's Request 2 is very narrow. It simply requests documents sufficient to show Valve's: (a) total yearly sales of apps and in-app products; (b) annual advertising revenues from Steam; (c) annual sales of external products attributable to Steam; (d) annual revenues from Steam; and (e) annual earnings (whether gross or net) from Steam. Apple has gone as far as requesting this information in any readily accessible format, but Valve refuses to produce it."

Now if you thought that demand from Apple was ballsy (and bear in mind Steam is a non-party to this main dispute) hold on to your hat, because Request 32 piles-on to demand documents showing:

"(a) the name of each App on Steam; (b) the date range when the App was available on Steam; and (c) the price of the App and any in-app product available on Steam."

That is, Apple wants Valve to provide the names, prices, configurations and dates of every product on Steam, as well as detailed accounts of exactly how much money Steam makes and how it is all divvied-up. Apple argues that this information is necessary for its case against Epic, is not available elsewhere, and "does not raise risk of any competitive harm."
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
Bit cheeky when Apple doesn't release the same data for the App store, no?
 
May 25, 2019
6,096
London
Why should Valve do this? Apple makes the Steam experience worse for me a user on their devices. The Steam Link app has a subset of features it has on other platforms.
 

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
Valve is doing fuck all. Not their fight and they haven't changed their attitude and stance since Epic launched their own Store
 

cowbanana

Member
Feb 2, 2018
14,271
a Socialist Utopia
How about no? Tim Apple and Tim Epic should concentrate on their own businesses. But surely they would both love that info from Valve. But I don't see why Valve should divulge very sensitive information like this.
 

Oddhouse

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,049
Good for Value. Apple abuses its position in the world.

I hope Epic win. Ultimately I think what they are doing, fighting for more money in the hands of developers is a good thing. I love Steam but they have enough money and 30% is to much to be a store.
 

Dis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,026
Yeah I hope that's a big no that the courts accept is a no and is not a reasonable request. I know valve being a privately owned company doesn't protect them from legal requirements of a court but the fact apple wants this info handed over from a private company while they don't even give that info out as a publicly traded company is kind of a wtf to me. There's a reason apple doesn't go around handing that same exact info out to third parties and valve isn't even involved in this shit with apple. Plus I know it isn't the same thing exactly but valve let you add apps from other places to steam so they aren't exactly going about things the same way apple does. I'm not obligated to buy a game on steam to use any steam functions of their service with it, some sure, but not all.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,852
Valve makes almost all of its money selling software on a platform (Windows, Mac, Linux) that it does not own. Why would it ever comply with a request of a company that wants full control over their platform on a lawsuit it has nothing to do with?
 

toy_brain

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,253
Fun.
I hope Valve fails to get the subpoena request thrown out, then they'd be legally obliged to provide the info, whether they want to or not.

Legal battles like this are always more interesting due to the amount of dirty laundry that gets aired, rather than who actually wins.
 

cw_sasuke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,729
Why would Valve go against Epic ? If Epic were to win Valve would be able to put Steam on iOS as well lol.
 

Soulflarz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,861
Yeah I hope that's a big no that the courts accept is a no and is not a reasonable request. I know valve being a privately owned company doesn't protect them from legal requirements of a court but the fact apple wants this info handed over from a private company while they don't even give that info out as a publicly traded company is kind of a wtf to me. There's a reason apple doesn't go around handing that same exact info out to third parties and valve isn't even involved in this shit with apple. Plus I know it isn't the same thing exactly but valve let you add apps from other places to steam so they aren't exactly going about things the same way apple does. I'm not obligated to buy a game on steam to use any steam functions of their service with it, some sure, but not all.
This

Why the hell is apple asking a private company to give out margins THEY dont give out.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,196
Request 2 makes sense from Apple side as a way to show the PC market that Epic is competing against. Request 32 is so ludicrous they might as well ask Valve to tell them get extra money from Mac sales. Asking for all the sales info is basically asking Valve to give all their (and their business partners) secret info for shit and giggles.

Also Valve will fight tooth and nail not to show how bug their slice of the pie is. They are mever giving clear numbers on how much Steam makes.
 

Deleted member 862

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,646
I'm not sure "look how successful Valve are as a third-party platform in a competitive market" is the sort of energy Apple would want to put out there when trying to defend their walled garden
 
Dec 21, 2020
5,073
This whole fiasco reads like a reality TV show where one tells a third party in the argument "back me up!" but the third party talks to the camera about how they aren't doing that.

Dramatized
 

Deleted member 3196

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,280
Valve aren't going to willingly reveal the specifics of their cut. They're also not going to reveal any special deals they struck with third parties to get games on Steam.

If they're compelled to give it, there's going to be a fuckton of pissed off third parties out there - everyone's going to be comparing the deal they got with the deal their competitors got.

The toxicity spilled out from this lawsuit keeps on getting worse.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,469
Weird move by Apple. Sure are asking a lot.

I love Steam but they have enough money and 30% is to much to be a store.

Well thankfully Steam is more than just a store, so all good then! 😸 I don't disagree that they could be asking less of course.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
30,492
Tampa
So it looks like Valve has given some information to Apple but they are also not deranged.

Valve has co-operated to what it believes to be a reasonable extent—"Valve already produced documents regarding its revenue share, competition with Epic, Steam distribution contracts, and other documents"—before going on to outline the nature of Apple's requests: "that Valve (i) recreate six years' worth of PC game and item sales for hundreds of third party video games, then (ii) produce a massive amount of confidential information about these games and Valve's revenues."

In a masterpiece of understatement, Valve's legal counsel writes: "Apple wrongly claims those requests are narrow. They are not."
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
44,768
ArcticMarvelousHamadryas-size_restricted.gif
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,279
The fact they need data from another company to support their case instead of using the data from their own platform is pretty damning. Specially so when Steam isn't like the App Store at all.
 
Dec 9, 2019
262
Fuck Apple. I hope they'll get regulated to shit and finally are forced to allow sideloading.
Also fuck Epic. But in this case, I'm on their side, even though for other reasons.
 

GhostofWar

Member
Apr 5, 2019
512
Why didn't they "ask" sony, microsoft, google & nintendo for the same info lol. Would seem if your trying to say everyone takes 30% you may aswell go the whole way.
 

ngower

Member
Nov 20, 2017
4,144
I don't think it's unreasonable to make this request given the ease with which it refutes Epic's claims. But I don't think Valve should ever be required to provide this.
 

Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,431
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
Why didn't they "ask" sony, microsoft, google & nintendo for the same info lol. Would seem if your trying to say everyone takes 30% you may aswell go the whole way.
Asking Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo honestly makes a hell of a lot more sense here since those are closed platforms like the iPhone. Steam is so very far from what Apple is trying to do.
 

nampad

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,238
Even if Valve would want to provide that information, I would not be surprised if this would take huge amounts of work.
Anyway, nice try.
 

Deleted member 18324

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
678
Not sure what's dumber here:

a) expecting a private company to volunteer information that the other, publicly traded company, would never publish, in a case that has nothing to do with said private company
b) a company that has done everything possible to close off its platform, including antagonising Valve themselves, now asking for evidence from Valve of how competitive they are on an open platform model

Yet another great outcome from Tim Epic's boneheaded crusade for More Profits For Me Personally, Now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,499
Not sure what's dumber here:

a) expecting a private company to volunteer information that the other, publicly traded company, would never publish, in a case that has nothing to do with said private company
b) a company that has done everything possible to close off its platform, including antagonising Valve themselves, now asking for evidence from Valve of how competitive they are on an open platform model

Yet another great outcome from Tim Epic's boneheaded crusade for More Profits For Me Personally, Now.
Shit, I forgot about this. Makes it so much more brazen.
 

Bardeh

Member
Jun 15, 2018
2,869
This data is HUGELY valuable, they must have known Valve wouldn't ever consider sharing it.