cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
Landlords are unethical because people need shelter to live and landlords hold it for ransom to suck profit out of people while doing no labor of their own.

You don't really think maintaining a building is "no labor", do you? That all that shit just fixes itself?

I'm not even counting the additional labor involved in renting a space to tenants, I'm just referring to basic cleaning, upkeep and repairs. Depending on the size of the building and the lot, the labor amounts to a full-time job.
 

VeePs

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,411
Landlords are unethical because people need shelter to live and landlords hold it for ransom to suck profit out of people while doing no labor of their own.

What if a landlord buys land and builds apartments to rent? the Amount of time and effort it takes for any time of construction is pretty long. Loans, meetings, phone calls, emails, blueprints, approvals, etc. Then you have upkeep, hiring employees, etc etc.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
People who don't yet own property rarely understand this. I'm not saying it's intense labor or anything, but any homeowner will tell you that maintaining their own property is no easy task, and that's from people who are trying their best to take care of their own living space.

The issue is that the only reason you're trying to maintain the land is your own personal standards. There is nothing inherit about being a landlord that actually requires landlords to work to maintain their property and there are plenty of stories of slumlords and crappy landlords not doing anything to help maintain their property to show this is the case.

Capitalism only cares about maximizing profit, you caring about things other than that makes you a bad capitalist. Of course, ideally the system which allows landlords would not exist but there are plenty of landlords that are "bad" at the job of extracting as much profit as possible.


I wouldn't say there are "good" landlords, I'd say that there are "Polite" landlords, still doing something that's not good thanks to failings of our society, but much better than the alternative.
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
People who don't yet own property rarely understand this. I'm not saying it's intense labor or anything, but any homeowner will tell you that maintaining their own property is no easy task, and that's from people who are trying their best to take care of their own living space.

I just had to chase a squirrel out of my attic and block any possible path of entry/exit, fix my gutters and the eroded soil below, recaulk my bathrooms and kitchen sink, patch some rotted wood on the siding of my shed and I still have to call an electrician to find out why my GFCI outlet in my bathroom isn't working. There is always something to fix/maintain while you are a homeowner.
 

RSTEIN

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,892
Landlords are unethical because people need shelter to live and landlords hold it for ransom to suck profit out of people while doing no labor of their own.

This is just so wrong.

Most people own their own homes. Above age 35, about 80% of people own their own homes.

The 20% or so that don't own a home rent. Why? Newly divorced. Don't have $ for a down payment (saving for home). Want the flexibility renting provides. Don't want to make a commitment. Financial circumstances (job loss, catastrophic loss, etc). Uncertain outlook about their future job prospects. Sold house for retirement and now rent.

In other words, It's very simple. Most people own, a % of population rents for a variety of reasons. The people who own property say to the 20% of people, here, you can rent this form me. Cover my costs (borrowing, maintenance (incl. of labor), utilities, taxes) and away we go.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,800
The issue is that the only reason you're trying to maintain the land is your own personal standards. There is nothing inherit about being a landlord that actually requires landlords to work to maintain their property and there are plenty of stories of slumlords and crappy landlords not doing anything to help maintain their property to show this is the case.

Capitalism only cares about maximizing profit, you caring about things other than that makes you a bad capitalist. Of course, ideally the system which allows landlords would not exist but there are plenty of landlords that are "bad" at the job of extracting as much profit as possible.


I wouldn't say there are "good" landlords, I'd say that there are "Polite" landlords, still doing something that's not good thanks to failings of our society, but much better than the alternative.
This is completely false. Yes billionaire slumlords that the government wont touch exist. They're scumbags. But anytime a tenant leaves my building I have to spend at least 4k getting it back up to code to be in compliance with housing laws in NYC. Every unit I rent out has to pass an inspection that it will surely fail after a long term tenant has moved on. I also cannot legally allow my tenants to go without heat, water, electricity etc. I cannot allow any infestations which is fairly difficult in an apartment building in Brooklyn that half the tenants don't seem to care about.

And that's just the stuff I do because it's legally required. You also have the stuff you do to make the living space better for your tenants which also will cost money and require work.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
This is just so wrong.

Most people own their own homes. Above age 35, about 80% of people own their own homes.

The 20% or so that don't own a home rent. Why? Newly divorced. Don't have $ for a down payment (saving for home). Want the flexibility renting provides. Don't want to make a commitment. Financial circumstances (job loss, catastrophic loss, etc). Uncertain outlook about their future job prospects. Sold house for retirement and now rent.

In other words, It's very simple. Most people own, a % of population rents for a variety of reasons. The people who own property say to the 20% of people, here, you can rent this form me. Cover my costs (borrowing, maintenance (incl. of labor), utilities, taxes) and away we go.
Yes you're describing the realities of our current system

This very system itself is unethical. Landlords are unethical but they wouldn't exist if the broader unethical system didn't create a need for landlords.

Like, just for example, if somebody didn't want to buy a house why not set up free communal housing?
 

RSTEIN

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,892
Yes you're describing the realities of our current system

This very system itself is unethical. Landlords are unethical but they wouldn't exist if the broader unethical system didn't create a need for landlords.

Like, just for example, if somebody didn't want to buy a house why not set up free communal housing?

Subsidized housing coexists alongside normal course owning and renting.

You're free to pursue communal housing provided you can find someone to foot the bill for you (government or organization). For example, Home Depot is spending $50 million to combat youth homelessness here in Canada.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,829
Chicago
And that's just the stuff I do because it's legally required. You also have the stuff you do to make the living space better for your tenants which also will cost money and require work.

Any advice to someone just starting out? I think I am going to start with a condo and rent out the other room to get a hang of it.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Regarding this though...no labor? Like maintaining it and paying the mortgage, taxes and fees? Assuming the market based financial risk? Providing a service to avoid large upfront costs and previously mentioned maintenance and tax responsibilities? Lots of people rent because they want to.

There is some value in subsuming risk I suppose, but usually repairs are done by contractors and a lot of contractors allow their work to be financed anyway; I just paid to have like a foot of new insulation blasted in my roof and I'll be making payments on the level of what had been my heating/cooling bills over the next 5 years for that. This is with me having mortgage payments that allow me to build equity and also the whole property value thing as a result of maintenance, that I wouldn't have if I were a tenant somewhere.

Profit motive means that the people taking on these risks don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts, and without strong rent controls the rent will go up in order to offset those costs + profit anyway (and in situations where there ARE strong rent controls, well, that's why all the property owners are so eager to find ways to evict people who are struggling). There's nothing that makes rent payments better than financed upkeep, and in fact if the people who are in the property don't have to set aside the majority of their monthly pay in order to retain shelter they may well have more savings to put forth as down payment on maintenance operations in the first place.

This is why people say that rent-seeking is an inefficiency.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
There is some value in subsuming risk I suppose, but usually repairs are done by contractors and a lot of contractors allow their work to be financed anyway; I just paid to have like a foot of new insulation blasted in my roof and I'll be making payments on the level of what had been my heating/cooling bills over the next 5 years for that. This is with me having mortgage payments that allow me to build equity and also the whole property value thing as a result of maintenance, that I wouldn't have if I were a tenant somewhere.

Profit motive means that the people taking on these risks don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts, and without strong rent controls the rent will go up in order to offset those costs + profit anyway (and in situations where there ARE strong rent controls, well, that's why all the property owners are so eager to find ways to evict people who are struggling). There's nothing that makes rent payments better than financed upkeep, and in fact if the people who are in the property don't have to set aside the majority of their monthly pay in order to retain shelter they may well have more savings to put forth as down payment on maintenance operations in the first place.

This is why people say that rent-seeking is an inefficiency.

Wanting anything you don't need to keep living is an inefficiency. It's a practically useless characterization. The freedom and convenience of renting is appealing to tons and tons of people.

And how does saying you can finance maintenance mean it isn't paid? That's just paying more in interest to accomplish the same thing. I don't understand how that's a response to listing it as labor or expense.
 
OP
OP
Midramble

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,507
San Francisco
Working on page and argument summaries for this thread but it's moving a lot faster than I thought.

In the meantime, what about non-managing landlords/owners?

For instance (and to be transparent about my conflicts of interest) I rent in SF in a 4 unit building. The manager is quite nice and lenient. The property was purchased over 50 years ago so I assume it's paid off. The owner keeps raising rent to match market. The owner also only upgrades units when the renter leaves and they can charge a lot more for rent. I've offered to pay for the upgrades they've done in other apartments to be applied to mine out of my own pocket but I've been denied, presumably because they would prefer that I leave my rent controlled place so they can jump the amount significantly (my apartment's clone accross the hall goes for $1k more a month. I've lived in this apartment for 5 years-ish). Is this ethical because it is the owner's property?

This is a common occurrence in SF.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,071
That's a very complicated and more than thorough requirement for online discussion regarding big issues. Asking impossible questions is just an easy way to shoot down positions. I am sure someone can give him answers but not right now. He knows this. Y'all fell for it.

This is simply ignoring and deflecting pointing out the flaws in your stance. If you're going to propose an outlandish way to approach the problem, you better be ready for people critiquing and pointing out the issues to your solution.

Landlords are unethical because people need shelter to live and landlords hold it for ransom to suck profit out of people while doing no labor of their own.

No labor of their own? This is such bullshit and is clear you either have no idea what you're talking about or your trolling.
 

Doomsayer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,621
Working on page and argument summaries for this thread but it's moving a lot faster than I thought.

In the meantime, what about non-managing landlords/owners?

For instance (and to be transparent about my conflicts of interest) I rent in SF in a 4 unit building. The manager is quite nice and lenient. The property was purchased over 50 years ago so I assume it's paid off. The owner keeps raising rent to match market. The owner also only upgrades units when the renter leaves and they can charge a lot more for rent. I've offered to pay for the upgrades they've done in other apartments to be applied to mine out of my own pocket but I've been denied, presumably because they would prefer that I leave my rent controlled place so they can jump the amount significantly (my apartment's clone accross the hall goes for $1k more a month. I've lived in this apartment for 5 years-ish). Is this ethical because it is the owner's property?

This is a common occurrence in SF.
Of course not, this is what people are calling rent-seekers.

They do nothing and upcharge because they can THAT is unethical. There are a myriad of other examples in this thread, from both tenants and landlords, that are ethical.

There seems to be two arguments going on in here; one about the meta commentary of capitalism and landlords and the other about property owners. Oh, and other people have no sense what it is actually like to own a property acting like they do.
 
OP
OP
Midramble

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,507
San Francisco
Of course not, this is what people are calling rent-seekers.

They do nothing and upcharge because they can THAT is unethical. There are a myriad of other examples in this thread, from both tenants and landlords, that are ethical.

There seems to be two arguments going on in here; one about the meta commentary of capitalism and landlords and the other about property owners.

Completely. Want to point that out in the summaries. Also would like to bring up peoples solutions instead of just grievances such as TiCs, co-ops, and land trusts.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,324
Working on page and argument summaries for this thread but it's moving a lot faster than I thought.

In the meantime, what about non-managing landlords/owners?

For instance (and to be transparent about my conflicts of interest) I rent in SF in a 4 unit building. The manager is quite nice and lenient. The property was purchased over 50 years ago so I assume it's paid off. The owner keeps raising rent to match market. The owner also only upgrades units when the renter leaves and they can charge a lot more for rent. I've offered to pay for the upgrades they've done in other apartments to be applied to mine out of my own pocket but I've been denied, presumably because they would prefer that I leave my rent controlled place so they can jump the amount significantly (my apartment's clone accross the hall goes for $1k more a month. I've lived in this apartment for 5 years-ish). Is this ethical because it is the owner's property?

This is a common occurrence in SF.
It is not unethical to make a profit through renting property but it is unethical to make an exorbitant profit through renting property and if that action will make them a lot more money that is not proportional to the costs of running the property, then it should be considered unethical.
 

FeliciaFelix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,778
For instance (and to be transparent about my conflicts of interest) I rent in SF in a 4 unit building. The manager is quite nice and lenient. The property was purchased over 50 years ago so I assume it's paid off. The owner keeps raising rent to match market. The owner also only upgrades units when the renter leaves and they can charge a lot more for rent. I've offered to pay for the upgrades they've done in other apartments to be applied to mine out of my own pocket but I've been denied, presumably because they would prefer that I leave my rent controlled place so they can jump the amount significantly (my apartment's clone accross the hall goes for $1k more a month. I've lived in this apartment for 5 years-ish). Is this ethical because it is the owner's property?

This is a common occurrence in SF.

You NEED to read this, it pertains to you:
rent control last year.)
San Francisco has had rent control for some time, and a new paper shines a very bright light on how rent control there has affected housing affordability and the local rental market. The paper is entitled, "The Effects of Rent Control Expansion on Tenants, Landlords, and Inequality: Evidence from San Francisco," and is by Stanford economists Rebecca Diamond, Tim McQuade and Franklin Qian. From a research design perspective, the paper harnesses a unique aspect of San Francisco's rent control law. When originally adopted in 1979, the city rent control ordinance exempted small, "mom and pop" structures of four units or less. That changed in 1994, when a voter initiative extended rent control to smaller units built before 1980.
This discontinuity in San Francisco's rent control system provides a convenient quasi-experiment for testing various hypotheses about the effects of rent control. As an experimental or treatment group, the study uses those pre-1980 1-4 unit homes that were subjected to rent control by the later 1994 changes to the ordinance. The control group is 1-4 unit homes built after 1980 but before 1992. One to four unit buildings may be the "missing middle" in other cities, but in San Francisco, they're a major component of the housing stock, making up nearly 30 percent of rental housing in the city in 1990.
Rent control confers benefits for some, but raises rents for others
Those who are lucky enough to have a rent-controlled apartment garner substantial economic benefits, which Diamond, et al estimate as being worth about $2,300 to 6,600 per person annually, with total benefits of nearly $400 million per year. The benefits tend to go disproportionately to older and longer tenured renters. Those who are younger and have live in an apartment a shorter period of time are more likely to move out, allowing landlords to adjust rents upward (so called "vacancy decontrol").
The standard economic argument against rent control is that it decreases the supply of rental housing: owners of current buildings have strong incentives to convert them to other uses (reducing the housing stock, and thereby pushing up market rents). Proponents of rent control point to some jurisdictions where rent control has had little apparent affect on housing stock, but these tend to be cities that have very weak or lenient systems of rent control: Laws that don't limit rent increases don't have adverse housing supply impacts. So what about San Francisco? It obviously lowers rents for those covered by the ordinance, but what has been the effect on housing supply?
"The study estimates that rent control has diminished rental housing supply by about 6 percent, and had the effect of driving rents up 7 percent."
Because rent controlled apartments give landlords a lower rate of return on their investment, many are looking for ways to opt out of rent control. Under California law, owners can evict tenants if they plan to occupy units themselves or if they resell the units as condominiums. In addition, landlords can offer tenants a buyout if they agree to vacate. As Diamond et al report, a key effect of San Francisco's rent control ordinance has been to lower the supply of rental housing:
. . . compared to the control group, there is a 15 percent decline in the number of renters living in these buildings and a 25 percent reduction in the number of renters living in rent-controlled units, relative to 1994 levels.
As the pool of rental housing shrinks due to rent control, lower supply tends to push up rents market-wide. Diamond et al estimate that rent control has diminished rental housing supply by about 6 percent, and had the effect of driving rents up 7 percent. It doesn't sound like much, but summed over the entire market, the value of the loss in welfare to renters is estimated at $5 billion.
Has rent control backfired?
One of the principal reasons for imposing rent control was to protect the ability of households of limited means to continue to be able to live in the city of San Francisco. And for some renters, it has clearly held down rents. But Diamond et al point out that the indirect impact on housing supply has had the opposite effect, for several reasons. First, as we've related, owners have engaged in condo-conversions and buyouts, reducing the rental housing stock, with the effect that market-wide rents have risen. Landlords can also demolish older buildings, and their replacements aren't subject to rent control. In addition, because landlords can raise rents to cover the costs of improvements, some landlords have renovated older units, raising their rents beyond the means of existing tenants. All of these actions are disproportionately concentrated in the city's higher income and better educated neighborhoods.
Diamond and her co-authors explain the results:
"Rent control has actually fueled the gentrification of San Francisco, the exact opposite of the policy's intended goal."
Taken together, we see rent controlled increased property investment, demolition and reconstruction of new buildings, conversion to owner occupied housing and a decline of the number of renters per building. All of these responses lead to a housing stock which caters to higher income individuals. Rent control has actually fueled the gentrification of San Francisco, the exact opposite of the policy's intended goal.

From here. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/11/2/winners-and-losers-from-rent-control?rq=Rent control

Excellent site about all things housing. Location location location is all that matters, there's no size fits all to housing.
 

moonie

Member
Oct 25, 2019
240
I just had to chase a squirrel out of my attic and block any possible path of entry/exit, fix my gutters and the eroded soil below, recaulk my bathrooms and kitchen sink, patch some rotted wood on the siding of my shed and I still have to call an electrician to find out why my GFCI outlet in my bathroom isn't working. There is always something to fix/maintain while you are a homeowner.

Same. It's frankly, exhausting and there is never enough time to do everything yourself.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,800
Any advice to someone just starting out? I think I am going to start with a condo and rent out the other room to get a hang of it.
I started out with roommates as well. I feel that's a lot easier since you're in the place with them. Just make sure the rules and terms are clearly defined in a written rent agreement and if you don't know the person at all, it wont hurt to do a credit check if you're weary about their ability to pay. Many might advise against this but I found that renting to people I already knew to be a really smooth process.
 

Puroresu_kid

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,477
I would say no but the system is the problem where many people have no choice but to rent privately to the benefit of landlords when in reality the state should be housing these people at a much lower cost.

When housing is a scarcity it doesn't feel right that some people will profit greatly from a basic necessity such as shelter.
 

RSTEIN

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,892
Working on page and argument summaries for this thread but it's moving a lot faster than I thought.

In the meantime, what about non-managing landlords/owners?

For instance (and to be transparent about my conflicts of interest) I rent in SF in a 4 unit building. The manager is quite nice and lenient. The property was purchased over 50 years ago so I assume it's paid off. The owner keeps raising rent to match market. The owner also only upgrades units when the renter leaves and they can charge a lot more for rent. I've offered to pay for the upgrades they've done in other apartments to be applied to mine out of my own pocket but I've been denied, presumably because they would prefer that I leave my rent controlled place so they can jump the amount significantly (my apartment's clone accross the hall goes for $1k more a month. I've lived in this apartment for 5 years-ish). Is this ethical because it is the owner's property?

This is a common occurrence in SF.

I would not assume it has been paid off. In fact it has probably been refinanced numerous times as rents and property values have gone up dramatically in SF. That excess money has likely been deployed into other properties or investments.

I do not do any major upgrades when a tenant is in the apartment. Why? Because it's more costly and difficult. You need to give the tenant notice & work around their schedule. Contractors do not like to do that. It's far easier to wait for a tenant to leave on their own, get a crew in their to do a fast gut job, and then re-list the unit as "newly renovated, fresh paint, brand new counter tops" etc.

Rent control is a complicated issue and I don't know enough about SF to comment on that. I'm not sure why exactly they would deny you specific upgrades or whatever.
 

BMW

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,703
DoNSflB.jpg

This meme makes zero sense.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Wanting anything you don't need to keep living is an inefficiency. It's a practically useless characterization. The freedom and convenience of renting is appealing to tons and tons of people.

And how does saying you can finance maintenance mean it isn't paid? That's just paying more in interest to accomplish the same thing. I don't understand how that's a response to listing it as labor or expense.

Well, if I didn't have to make mortgage payments the amount of money I'd be paying long-term for these improvements is significantly lower than the actual rents being charged in my area, which is further offset by the fact that these specific improvements have their costs offset by the lowered associated costs in energy for powering, heating, and cooling the home.

That said, yes, financing isn't inherently better than paying rent -- that's why people are saying the problems of rental income are a symptom of a larger capitalist problem.
 
OP
OP
Midramble

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,507
San Francisco
You NEED to read this, it pertains to you:


From here. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/11/2/winners-and-losers-from-rent-control?rq=Rent control

Excellent site about all things housing. Location location location is all that matters, there's no size fits all to housing.

Oh I'm well aware of rent control being a problem in itself and have mentioned it in many other threads. Rent control was also a poor bandaid solution to a larger problem that exacerbates the issue as a whole. The source of the SF problem is zoning limiting supply though. Rent control is a symptom. I would happily give up rent control and pay higher rates if I could trade it for changed zoning and a larger supply pool.
 

Coyote Zamora

alt account
Banned
Jul 19, 2019
766
You can fuck off with your hypothetical bullshit when people are talking about real problems. The housing situation in Dublin is awful.
No, people are in here talking about hypothetical bullshit in here. No country in here is going to become socialist or communist within anyone's lifetime yet people keep bringing it up like it's on the horizon. This happens every other generation Take issue with then not me if you don't like it.
 

Coyote Zamora

alt account
Banned
Jul 19, 2019
766
I don't have children. I share with my partner. We both have decent jobs and decent pay. This idea that social housing looks like a gulag is ridiculous. There are plenty of European examples of good social housing programs.

Hell, look at Singapore.
I believe the only person in here that mentioned anything negative was you. I merely asked were these consequences you were prepared to live with in this fantasy of a new world order. Apparently your answer is yes. Don't try to turn me into your convenient boogyman because you'd like to have one to point is at
 

citrusred

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,970
No, people are in here talking about hypothetical bullshit in here. No country in here is going to become socialist or communist within anyone's lifetime yet people keep bringing it up like it's on the horizon. This happens every other generation Take issue with then not me if you don't like it.
and why are you teling me this?

Edit: looked backed through your histroy and saw the comment about dormitories. People are already living in hotels paid by the state because the recession mean no housing was built for a decade. So yeah, the lack of social housing is effectively creating the dormitories your imagining. More social housing will relieve rent pressure since rented homes wont be taken up by people who should be in social housing. Though I'd be surprised if rent prices went down now that people know they can get away with charging half of peoples wages.
 
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Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,829
Chicago
I started out with roommates as well. I feel that's a lot easier since you're in the place with them. Just make sure the rules and terms are clearly defined in a written rent agreement and if you don't know the person at all, it wont hurt to do a credit check if you're weary about their ability to pay. Many might advise against this but I found that renting to people I already knew to be a really smooth process.

Thanks! Will keep this in mind.
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
Alright so I can own an enormous house, y'all would be fine with that. But as soon as I want to rent out one of the rooms and not live in it myself, it becomes unethical. Mind you I'm modest and would never own a huge house to begin with, I'm only speaking hypothetically.
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,125
Arkansas, USA
My grandfather and father both owned a few properties that they rented out. They did most of the repair/maintenance themselves (and drug me along), so they were constantly working.

To hell with that if you ask me, maintaining my own home is more than enough work. Suffice to say not all landlords are evil assholes, my Dad works too damn much maintaining the properties he owns and he isn't a wealthy man.

I laughed when my wife suggested buying a rental property. I'm not going to work 24/7 like my Dad does.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,654
Landlords are unethical because people need shelter to live and landlords hold it for ransom to suck profit out of people while doing no labor of their own.

I know this post has attracted a number of responses because of how obviously daft it is, but it also reminds me of the recent thread where a load of posters declared they didn't want to work.

Can you answer this - do you want a free house? As in one that is provided for you by the State? How does such a house come into being? Does it fall from the sky?
 

Yoss

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,680
Canada
The unethical part is being paid for just owning land.
Do you think property taxes are unethical? What about paying repair people to fix things on the property? There's a cost associated with owning property, it's reasonable to charge the people living on the property to recoup those costs. It's the amount they charge and the way they go about it that's the problem.
 

citrusred

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,970
Can you answer this - do you want a free house? As in one that is provided for you by the State? How does such a house come into being? Does it fall from the sky?
This thread feel like talking to loons, yes social housing exists. Its paid for by the state for people who might not have access to housing otherwise who then pay a small rent back to the local council.

These days this means peope on the dole or are disabled but in the past in included an awful lot of working people becuase in a place like Ireland there was literally no one else with the capitall to build housing that wasn't the state. Even when they stopped building houses local councils still offered mortgages for people who couldn't get one through the bank. (I think this actually returend a few years ago on a smaller scale.)

Not building social housing increases rents for everyone as people still have to live somewhere and rent paid by the state means the available stock of rented houses goes down for everyone.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,156
Limburg
^ more disengenous or misinformed reductionist nonsense about money falling from the sky or some other straw man of actual leftist positions.

you do know that the gubbermint prints money right? And we own our own debt primarily. So the only thing stopping us for paying for housing for every American is literally selfishness.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Alright so I can own an enormous house, y'all would be fine with that. But as soon as I want to rent out one of the rooms and not live in it myself, it becomes unethical. Mind you I'm modest and would never own a huge house to begin with, I'm only speaking hypothetically.

I mean I don't think the people in here complaining about landlords are particularly fond of, say, McMansions either. I'm not.
 
OP
OP
Midramble

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,507
San Francisco
I would not assume it has been paid off. In fact it has probably been refinanced numerous times as rents and property values have gone up dramatically in SF. That excess money has likely been deployed into other properties or investments.

I do not do any major upgrades when a tenant is in the apartment. Why? Because it's more costly and difficult. You need to give the tenant notice & work around their schedule. Contractors do not like to do that. It's far easier to wait for a tenant to leave on their own, get a crew in their to do a fast gut job, and then re-list the unit as "newly renovated, fresh paint, brand new counter tops" etc.

Rent control is a complicated issue and I don't know enough about SF to comment on that. I'm not sure why exactly they would deny you specific upgrades or whatever.

In the basement I found a record of purchase for 1.5 million for the entire property. In totality they charge $12k a month in rent for the 4 apartments so $144k of annual renter revenue. The building has only received a new water heater in the years I've been here. It was built in 1907. Is it still not safe to assume they've paid it off? The manager manages multiple properties for the owner. My rent checks go to the owner's trust. Saying the excess has been deployed into other investments essential says that it could have been paid off at any time but they want to increase their profit making investment. Which, of course they would (I mean that as an observation, not as snark). I get not doing upgrades because it's complicated to do when a tenant is there. What you're saying makes sense, but would you deny a tenant if they offered to pay for the upgrades themselves out of pocket? Hell I'm out of the country for work 3 months of the year, we can empty the unit for the work but we still get denied.

Again though this may be an exception and was more posted in order to specifically bring up rent-seeking owners in the landlord paradigm.

The larger question being, is this an inherent end-state of the landlord system, or is it merely a symptom of wealth disparity in loosely regulated capitalism?
 

Jacknapes

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,219
Newport, South Wales
I've only experienced 1 landlord, and he's fine. Anything that's wrong with the place, he fixes as soon as he can. Prefer renting anyway, anything that goes wrong isn't an issue financially for me.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
^ more disengenous or misinformed reductionist nonsense about money falling from the sky or some other straw man of actual leftist positions.

you do know that the gubbermint prints money right? And we own our own debt primarily. So the only thing stopping us for paying for housing for every American is literally selfishness.

Huh? No it isn't. With regular levels of demand printing too much money causes inflation.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,935
This thread is a bunch of people slowly realizing that there is in fact no ethical consumption under capitalism.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
So: If you live in a society without those pesky unethical landlords, any time you're looking for a new place to live, you'll be required to purchase property because no one will be allowed to rent lodging to you.

Hopefully there will be exception for short-term stays or staying overnight in a city where you don't own property would be pretty difficult. Maybe you're expected to buy a property when you arrive and sell it when you leave?

Luckily, in this society owning property requires no labor at all so maybe a solution will be to just own property in every city you're likely to visit.

Did I get it right?
 

RSTEIN

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,892
In the basement I found a record of purchase for 1.5 million for the entire property. In totality they charge $12k a month in rent for the 4 apartments so $144k of annual renter revenue. The building has only received a new water heater in the years I've been here. It was built in 1907. Is it still not safe to assume they've paid it off? The manager manages multiple properties for the owner. My rent checks go to the owner's trust. Saying the excess has been deployed into other investments essential says that it could have been paid off at any time but they want to increase their profit making investment. Which, of course they would (I mean that as an observation, not as snark). I get not doing upgrades because it's complicated to do when a tenant is there. What you're saying makes sense, but would you deny a tenant if they offered to pay for the upgrades themselves out of pocket? Hell I'm out of the country for work 3 months of the year, we can empty the unit for the work but we still get denied.

Again though this may be an exception and was more posted in order to specifically bring up rent-seeking owners in the landlord paradigm.

The larger question being, is this an inherent end-state of the landlord system, or is it merely a symptom of wealth disparity in loosely regulated capitalism?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Let's say they bought the building in year 1 for $1.5 million. They put down 50% and financed the other 50% (750k). In year 5, rents have risen and the property value has risen. They approach the bank about getting a new appraisal done on the property. The bank says, congratulations, your building is now worth $2.5 million. But, for the owner, this is just paper. They can't get the extra $1 million in appreciation out of the building without selling it (and then they'll pay capital gains tax). But what they can do is take out a new loan or additional loan against the higher appraisal value of the building (assuming there's also been a commensurate rise in rents to cover the additional interest to make the lender happy).

So, now the owner has access to more cash (note they're also paying more in interest, covered by the increase in rents over the last 4 years). They use this cash to go out and buy an additional property or other investment (private company, stocks, bonds, etc.). These other purchases also need to keep the lender happy. There's always a fine line you have to walk--increasing your investments while also making sure all parties are happy.

(As an aside there's been a clamp down on this in Canada which makes explosive growth for most individuals next to impossible. For calculation purposes, income you get from your properties is chopped in half and most lenders will cut you off after you own 5 homes.)

There's no incentive whatsoever for a building to ever be paid off. Interest, depreciation, property taxes, maintenance, etc., are all tax deductible. So you can daisy chain the increase in the value of the property (via loans) with new properties and investments. All while you pay zero in taxes along the way.

I have never had a tenant approach me with upgrades. I mean, they can paint, decorate, etc., all they want without asking. But like for a new appliance or something I've never had that. I can't see why I would deny that.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,071
^ more disengenous or misinformed reductionist nonsense about money falling from the sky or some other straw man of actual leftist positions.

you do know that the gubbermint prints money right? And we own our own debt primarily. So the only thing stopping us for paying for housing for every American is literally selfishness.

You can't just print significant amounts of money without consequences though.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,156
Limburg
You can't just print significant amounts of money without consequences though.

You can when you own enough of your own debt. Look it up, US government + Federal reserve own the most of US debt compared to any other singular source. We bailed out the banks in 08 but we can't print a measly few Hundo billion to house everyone? Disgusting

ITT:

Chocolate covered Republican talking points that don't even taste like chocolate
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,654
This thread feel like talking to loons, yes social housing exists. Its paid for by the state for people who might not have access to housing otherwise who then pay a small rent back to the local council.

These days this means peope on the dole or are disabled but in the past in included an awful lot of working people because in a place like Ireland there was literally no one else with the capitall to build housing that wasn't the state. Even when they stopped building houses local councils still offered mortgages for people who couldn't get one through the bank. (I think this actually returend a few years ago on a smaller scale.)

Not building social housing increases rents for everyone as people still have to live somewhere and rent paid by the state means the available stock of rented houses goes down for everyone.

Mass social housing in Ireland came into being so you didn't have 20 families living in a slum on Henrietta St with no running water and one toilet between everyone. I don't think anyone would argue this was moral or ethical. As you say yourself, social housing in Ireland wasn't free either and many of the tenants would ultimately buy their house. This thread isn't about disabled people either because the State obviously has a duty of care.

The point I was getting at is that in every single one of these threads you'll find some 'socialist' whinging about labour being stolen but also want to reap the benefits of someone else's labour. Every time.