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SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,389
São Paulo - Brazil
But as with the point on gender, I am not really bothered by this decision. Would a small village (the player's settlement) have multiple characters from other continents in 9th century England? Almost certainly not. But would there have been traders from far off lands in England? Absolutely, although one would expect that many of the 'exotic foreigners' would be Spaniards (including, of course, Spanish Muslims, given the date) or Italians. Could there have been Middle Eastern or even East Asian traders, travelers, merchants and the like in 9th century England? Sure – not many – but sure.

My only problem with this all is that, of course, nearly all of the foreign characters are in your settlement – rather than in the big cities with big markets where you would actually expect to see people from far off lands – which further heightens the Norse-Saxon contrast I am going to complain about in a moment.

We should be clear about what is happening in England in c. 875 when the game takes place. After almost a century of repeated Norse and Danish viking raids on the English coast (which, to be clear, were not merely raids for physical goods; they were slave raids as trading in slaves ('thralls') was an important part of the Scandinavian economy), the arrival of what the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle calls the 'Great Heathen Army' (in 865) turned that into a war of conquest. The Norse and Danes overran the English kingdoms (save Wessex) and settled in the area, subjugating the population, taking the best farmland from its former owners and generally wrecking the place in the process. Our sources are very clear that this was not a particularly pleasant process for the existing population and the surviving English kingdom of Wessex responded to it with a series of reforms that radically militarized the kingdom.

To say that the game sanitizes this history is a profound understatement.
Instead the early game missions generally represent the Norse and Danish invaders as a positive impact on the local population. The first two mission chains in England involve replacing the 'bad guy' anti-pagan king of Mercia with a good guy reasonable king Ceolwulf (and his good guy reasonable son) and rescuing the Dane-ruled settlement of Grantebridge where, I kid you not, we are told that this settlement was just a tiny village when the Danes moved in and built it up into a big, multi-cultural trading town and all of the local English folks are just totally OK with this and it is just the mean nasty Saxon army (led by a bad guy member of an evil conspiracy) who are ruining everything. Apparently all of the Danish vikings only really came by for infrastructure week.

This problem is infinitely compounded by the way the game treats, or more correctly does not treat, the Norse practice of slavery. Thralls – that is, enslaved persons forced to work, typically, as menial laborers – are mentioned only at the very beginning of the game and never subsequently recur. This is an enormous problem in terms of representing Norse society and a stunning one given that slavery was not left out of Odyssey. Slavery was extremely common in the Norse and Danish world of this period. As far as we can tell most free households would have had at least a few enslaved 'thralls' and larger households would often have had dozens. Eivor and Sigurd – the main characters – being effectively nobility (a Huscarl) and royalty (a jarl and king's son) respectively would both have many enslaved thralls in their households.
Imagine the equivalent of a game set in the American South or the Caribbean pre-1865 in which slavery was simply not present at all and you have the rough scope of the problem here (I should point out that the Assassin's Creed games actually set in the Caribbean did acknowledge the presence of slavery, quite explicitly)
And that, of course is the problem: the broader implications of this kind of game design for thinking about colonialism. I do not think we are all collectively bothered by how Viking-themed products make us think about 9th century settler colonialism in Northern Europe. But colonialism more broadly, and the still popular fantasy of colonists finding empty 'virgin' lands to settle, is still a major issue in the consciousness and politics of many countries. Obviously in the United States this is a big issue because we are a country where a colonial population and an indigenous population live side by side; the morality and ethics of who owns what and how is fiendishly complex and still very much in flux. Meanwhile, the People's Republic of China is doing some ethnic cleansing in order to engage in settler-colonialism right now (in case anyone was under the truly silly beliefs that imperialism and colonialism was somehow unique or particular to Europeans or that colonialism was somehow incompatible with anti-capitalist regimes).
but this version, where the lands are not only not empty but actively improved by being invaded and violently subjugated by a superior people (and we're going to get there in a minute) modeled off of an actual historical event is just stunningly irresponsible storytelling.
If this were just an issue of the presentation of religious, I wouldn't be so bothered – this is fairly mild stuff (except for the Anchoress bit) – obnoxious and offensive, but only mildly so. But the problem is intensified by how this fuses together with the previous point: just as the Danes and Norse seem to arrive and immediately show their superiority by improving the place through colonialism (oof), they are also presented as being in possession of a superior culture, particularly in the form of what is presented as a superior religion (which unlike the game's Christianity is, as noted, sanitized of its distasteful elements – Christianity is still hegemonic, but no Norse blood sacrifices) as your Norse faith repeatedly solves problems and presents unique wisdom, whereas the local Christians never do this.
And of course that plays straight back into the problem with sanitizing Scandinavian raiding, slavery, and gender roles: the Christian Saxons do not get the same treatment, setting up this stark contrast between an a-historically pure and moral set of Norse characters and a more historically grounded, flawed Christian Saxon society (all the more awkward because one of the things the Christian church militated against in Scandinavian society was slavery, since many of the enslaved people there were Christian).
But, as I just implied two paragraphs ago, I think there is an extra layer of irresponsibility here. Any historian who works on this period will tell you – and I know mostly because they keep telling me – that pre-Christian 'viking' (read: Scandinavian) imagery and history is routinely mobilized by the modern incarnations of white supremacist and frankly Nazi ideologies. Scandinavian runic writing, the Scandinavian 'cross of Odin,' and even the under-cut hairstyle often associated (falsely, by the by, even though TV shows keep using it) with 'vikings' have all been appropriated by racist extremists as symbols of their movement.
Now, do I think that the developers set out to create a sanitized defense of colonialism (much less an apologia for Nazi race ideology)? Of course not. But they ended up doing it anyway.
Does all of that matter? Yes, I think it does. As I have argued here many times, fiction is often how the public conceptualizes the past and that concept of the past shapes the decisions we make in the present. Is one video game going to lead to a return to colonialist thinking? Of course not. But a culture in which such sanitized narratives are common is a culture far more willing to make those decisions; these stories matter in the aggregate. And so it is incumbent on designers and developers to construct their stories and their worlds with care, especially when they are set in the very real past.
Assassin's Creed: Valhalla is willing to show the player nudity and gore. It will show, in intense detail, hands and heads being cut off, people being speared. It is perfectly happy to use profane language. But it blushes at showing the player anything like the reality of this historical period and in the process constructs a deceptive apology for colonialism. It is a decently fun, but deeply irresponsible game.

acoup.blog

Collections: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

We’re going to be a bit silly this week (in part because the ending of this compressed semester has left me with little time) and talk about the recently released historical action-RPG comput…

I don't know if this is an excessive use of quotes, but the article is very rich and thorough, I actually had to cut many quotes out and. I highly recommend reading the entire thing.

TL;DR: The article tries to show how Vahalla ends portraying imperialism in a extremely positive light, by making the Vikings a superior and very distinctive people when compared to the Saxons (and in doing so ignoring history) and force of progress that seemingly only improves the land and the lives of people living there before they arrived.
 

Deleted member 79517

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 31, 2020
472
This is good, and a lot of this could have been seen from a mile away. Ubisoft has a tendency to sanitize the past/present in service of providing their games with cool settings.
 

Deleted member 9306

Self-requested temporary ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
962
Thanks so much for this article. I don't play this game and I'm not ever planning on buying it (Not related to this, I'm just bored of Vikings), but I'm glad that more people are paying attention to the subtle ways that certain games promote/excuse the horrors done by western powers.
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
Its unfortunate of ubisoft toothless direction and writting to sell 20 million copies of each game. AC games especially are treated and marketed as period power fantasy games. To show realities of certain periods, to make some kind of commentary and to portray characters and events without filter would be against the philosohpies of ubisoft marketing and general philosophy of how they produce these games.
Even as sanitized and toothles as Vallhalla is , it still makes some people uncomfortable, especially raiding monasteries n such. Theres one person who has an issue with that in OT and its a valid issue to have for him/her
 
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ciddative

Member
Apr 5, 2018
4,633
Tone was immediately weird from the trailers, happy go lucky invader simulator, those cheeky rapscallions!
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,389
São Paulo - Brazil
Thanks so much for this article. I don't play this game and I'm not ever planning on buying it (Not related to this, I'm just bored of Vikings), but I'm glad that more people are paying attention to the subtle ways that certain games promote/excuse the horrors done by western powers.

I think the fact that both the attackers and defenders are westerns in this case make it more palatable and tolerable for the wider audience, one of the quotes I had to cut from the OP was this one:

Let's consider this through our heuristic of "what would we think about this if it were a religion other than Christianity?" Imagine a game where your character comes upon a Buddhist monk in a small shrine and easily talks them into violating their vows by acquiring some property or engaging in sexual intercourse (using reasoning from your religious tradition, no less), after which they thank you and then the game rewards you experience for having desecrated their sacred vows. This is roughly what you do with the anchoress (whose vow is to stay isolated and in place).
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,290
Yeah, most of the AC games make one side "good" when both sides were complicated.

Unity and Origins both tried to tackle the duplicitous mature of humans, but most of these games turn into 'MY SIDE GOOD'

I mean, I literally burn villages to the ground but it's ok because I don't kill the peasants only the soldiers and then destroy everything they own but they'll be fine come winter, and the game never ever questions if this is ok behaviour.
 

Greywaren

Member
Jul 16, 2019
9,959
Spain
This has been an issue with Assassin's Creed for a while now. Most games in the series picture your side as the good guys and the other side as the bad guys and they have little to no redeeming qualities, so anything you do to them is positive and good.

It's not great and it's good to make people aware of it, because people who don't know about the specific time period can get a very wrong idea of how things actually were.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,389
São Paulo - Brazil
This has been an issue with Assassin's Creed for a while now. Most games in the series picture your side as the good guys and the other side as the bad guys and they have little to no redeeming qualities, so anything you do to them is positive and good.

It's not great and it's good to make people aware of it, because people who don't know about the specific time period can get a very wrong idea of how things actually were.

I think this Vahalla might be considerably worse though, and one of the reasons is that you're actually playing the invader this time. In Origins, for example, you were not playing a Roman or a Greek, you were playing an egyptian. In Odyssey you were playing a greek. Now in a game about people invading england you're not playing a local.

And a lot of the problems that the article shows come from the fact that they had to show the invading force as the good guys.
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,388
Seoul
Yeah I'm enjoying the game but it'd be way better if the tone actually fit. Like even if we're not the "bad" guy we're not the good guy either. I'm pillaging churches and villages but am the good guy somehow.


Idk why protagonist = good guy ,in so many things
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,942
I guess in the AC fiction, the idea of The Victors Get to Write History means it's written directly into their DNA.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
That's what I've been wondering about. Slavery was the backbone of scandinavian culture back in the day as it was in likely most places. But we generally don't glorify or celebrate those doing the kidnapping and colonization. Don't know why this white-washing of vikings is so common now.

Crazy how a japanese manga has the best and most honest depiction of vikings in popular media.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,875
It has always been the case in the franchise. They always make the faction the player is part of "less shitty" than it was in reality. AC3 : US founding fathers where all good guys, yeah, right. Black Flag : pirates where good guys, yeah, right. Odyssey, Spartans are good guys, totally not eugenistic or xenophobic, no no no.

So yeah, obviously, making us play a Viking in england, they "had" to edulcorate plenty of things. I mean, even with this edulcoration, there's still players that are turned off by their percieved shittyness of the Danes and Eivor in the game. So...
 

Edgar

User requested ban
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Oct 29, 2017
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That's what I've been wondering about. Slavery was the backbone of scandinavian culture back in the day as it was in likely most places. But we generally don't glorify or celebrate those doing the kidnapping and colonization. Don't know why this white-washing of vikings is so common now.

Crazy how a japanese manga has the best and most honest depiction of vikings in popular media.
Well, vinland saga is one of a kind
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,934
Yeah, most of the AC games make one side "good" when both sides were complicated.

Unity and Origins both tried to tackle the duplicitous mature of humans, but most of these games turn into 'MY SIDE GOOD'

I mean, I literally burn villages to the ground but it's ok because I don't kill the peasants only the soldiers and then destroy everything they own but they'll be fine come winter, and the game never ever questions if this is ok behaviour.
I think AC 1 and 3 were much, much better at not blowing smoke up the players ass than most of the later games. It was cool when AC games actually focused on the history and scifi stuff.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,970
Oh god I never noticed the mixed use of the Oxford comma in the Ubisoft diversity line, I'll never be able to look past it again.

Not at all surprised the game drops the ball here, it always sounded like a very questionable premise that would be difficult to reconcile with the mechanical needs of a big budget open world game like this.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Reminds me of the show Vikings. The show is about Vikings doing Viking stuff and the show doesn't shy away from showing how brutal and barbaric Vikings can be. They did a good job humanizing the characters but still kept them true to how the vikings were thought to be.

Yet, you had people actually hating the Saxons whenever they do something bad against the Vikings. It is like people just see Vikings and the "badassery" they do so they root for them without thinking about what they are doing to innocent people that are getting invaded, raped and robbed.

Ubisoft seem like they are the above group of people.
 

labx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,326
Medellín, Colombia
Yes, I think it does. As I have argued here many times, fiction is often how the public conceptualizes the past and that concept of the past shapes the decisions we make in the present. Is one video game going to lead to a return to colonialist thinking? Of course not

This quote is fire. And one of the reasons why society is so fucked up right now.

Assassin's Creed: Valhalla is willing to show the player nudity and gore. It will show, in intense detail, hands and heads being cut off, people being speared. It is perfectly happy to use profane language. But it blushes at showing the player anything like the reality of this historical period and in the process constructs a deceptive apology for colonialism. It is a decently fun, but deeply irresponsible game.

Thank you for this Thread OP, very interesting.
 

CrazyDude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,749
Reminds me of the show Vikings. The show is about Vikings doing Viking stuff and the show doesn't shy away from showing how brutal and barbaric Vikings can be. They did a good job humanizing the characters but still kept them true to how the vikings were thought to be.

Yet, you had people actually hating the Saxons whenever they do something bad against the Vikings. It is like people just see Vikings and the "badassery" they do so they root for them without thinking about what they are doing to innocent people that are getting invaded, raped and robbed.

Ubisoft seem like they are the above group of people.
I mean Saxons were the invaders and colonizers at one point themselves when they took over from the Britons. Also let's not pretend that the Saxons were not raping and pillaging each other before the Vikings arrived. The vikings were not anymore evil or brutal than anyone else around that time.
 

Trigger

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,934
Atlanta, GA
At this point, I don't know why they choose to set AC games in historical settings. The plots are usually ahistorical and you can't drool over the beauty of these environments without acknowledging the actual culture that created it.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
And this is why we need the abilitiy to judge the (entertainment) media we consume critically and this should be teached and pointed out (like in such articles).

I find it strange at first in Vikings (TV show), too, when I watched it a few years ago, that we side with the raiders, rapists and murderers. Sure, the Anglo-Saxons weren't innocent, either, as the assimilation and repression of the Romano-British that lived there before wasn't always peaceful, too. But killing monks in a monestary just for shits and giggles and gold and silver isn't really what I'd call sympathatic, "I like to see and bond with these characters!".

So they need to add some extra layers (far from historical truth) so you can actually sympathise with them and I think AC:V has the same issue: Why would I want to go on a killing spree as the bad guys? There are games like Manhunt or GTA where you do exactly that but these games don't take themselves seriously while AC (any others games) rely on real history, they don't create fantasy and stories out of thin air; these raids had happened.

Then again, stories are mostly about the characters that inhabit them and even bad guys don't do bad shit all day long and everyone has their own side of perspective. Someone's terrorist is another one's freedom fighter and it depends on how you describe the perspective and how (or if) the good sides outweights the bad sides enough. We've seen this lately in TLOU2, or TV shows like You or The Boys. The quality may vary but it's the same principle.

In the end I don't expect an AC game to be a history-accurate game or simulation. I mean, if you just look at the combat system it is clear what they targeting; it's about spectacle and feeling powerful (and being kept busy with tons of content).

The same goes for pirate games. Ultimately, we sometimes just want to be the bad guy.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I mean Saxons were the invaders and colonizers at one point themselves when they took over from the Britons. Also let's not pretend that the Saxons were not raping and pillaging each other before the Vikings arrived. The vikings were not anymore evil or brutal than anyone else around that time.
I am not saying it is black or white. It is just that when it comes to the Vikings tv series you have people rooting for the vikings compared to the saxons and others even though the show makes it clear that the Vikings are in the wrong most of the times. Like rooting for characters isn't that bad of a thing (especially because the characters are humanized instead of cartoony written) but people should understand that rooting for someone doesn't mean they are right.

Ubisoft to me felt as if they watched a lot of Viking related media and made them the good guys instead of portraying them in a human but realistic way.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
Using history for your virtual toybox usually means the nuance and complications of that history will be lost in favor of checking boxes and design by committee shit. At least Dynasty Warriors doesn't pretend to be anything but a rock stupid Saturday morning cartoon about history where your guy is basically a walking dynamo that shoots lasers from a spear.

Assassin's Creed usually wants it both ways and as a result does neither very well.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,591
The crazy thing is that they've got a ready-made out for this sort of thing: the whole point of the franchise is it's about two secret societies at war with each other behind the scenes. Yet for presumably narrative and gameplay purposes, they feel they have to attach the Assassins and Templars to 'sides' and have them fight big epic proxy battles.

The even crazier thing is that they've leant on this sort of meta-commentary before. In a bunch of the games, the evil plot by the Templars was to conceal their own indiscretions throughout history and paint Assassins as the baddies, by selling doctored historical simulations as entertainment. They're absolutely aware of it, to the point where the in-game Montreal-based Abstergo is clearly a stand-in for Ubisoft themselves (with all sorts of in-jokes and sardonic gamedev humour if you explore the offices).
 

N7_Kovalski

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,460
Should have went all in and included everything. Maybe make the player character go along with it all at first to make you feel uncomfortable but question if what they are doing is right. Maybe that could have been the catalyst for them joining the Assassin's and maybe even fighting back against their "way of life." Idk, I just dont think most big devs/pubs want to deal with stuff like that. Instead we get, "Hey, Vikings are rad!"
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
Should have went all in and included everything. Maybe make the player character go along with it all at first to make you feel uncomfortable but question if what they are doing is right. Maybe that could have been the catalyst for them joining the Assassin's and maybe even fighting back against their "way of life." Idk, I just dont think most big devs/pubs want to deal with stuff like that. Instead we get, "Hey, Vikings are rad!"
Ubisoft games love to tread in the political/historical while simultaneously saying absolutely nothing about those subjects at all. Depth of a puddle and all that.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,389
São Paulo - Brazil
And this is why we need the abilitiy to judge the (entertainment) media we consume critically and this should be teached and pointed out (like in such articles).

I find it strange at first in Vikings (TV show), too, when I watched it a few years ago, that we side with the raiders, rapists and murderers. Sure, the Anglo-Saxons weren't innocent, either, as the assimilation and repression of the Romano-British that lived there before wasn't always peaceful, too. But killing monks in a monestary just for shits and giggles and gold and silver isn't really what I'd call sympathatic, "I like to see and bond with these characters!".

So they need to add some extra layers (far from historical truth) so you can actually sympathise with them and I think AC:V has the same issue: Why would I want to go on a killing spree as the bad guys? There are games like Manhunt or GTA where you do exactly that but these games don't take themselves seriously while AC (any others games) rely on real history, they don't create fantasy and stories out of thin air; these raids had happened.

Then again, stories are mostly about the characters that inhabit them and even bad guys don't do bad shit all day long and everyone has their own side of perspective. Someone's terrorist is another one's freedom fighter and it depends on how you describe the perspective and how (or if) the good sides outweights the bad sides enough. We've seen this lately in TLOU2, or TV shows like You or The Boys. The quality may vary but it's the same principle.

In the end I don't expect an AC game to be a history-accurate game or simulation. I mean, if you just look at the combat system it is clear what they targeting; it's about spectacle and feeling powerful (and being kept busy with tons of content).

The same goes for pirate games. Ultimately, we sometimes just want to be the bad guy.

The funny thing is: we're not really playing the bad guys here. The article tries to show how the game portrays the Vikings as the good guys and a force for progress.

A few quotes that I had to cut from the OP dealt with how genders are portrayed in the game. Basically the Vikings are more progressive than the Saxons, with female warriors and leaders, while the other group is much more patriarchal. And historically this is very much false, the Vikings were just as patriarchal as the Saxons, or very closely so.

And the author is very happy in pointing out why this can be a problem. Adding more female roles in not a problem, but when you do it on only one side, the implication is that this side is better tha the other. And when this side in the invaders, this become one more element that compounds into the portrail of imperialism as a good thing.
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,753
As a game, I'm sure the goal was to make sure the player character was the "good guy". They're probably also figuring that you're playing as the invader, and the invaders never saw themselves as being the bad guys (i.e. "I'm gonna free the shit out of you").

It's definitely good that games like this can inspire people to read more into what really happened in historical times that we don't often think about these days, but I wouldn't expect the game itself to try to make any profound statements like that.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
The funny thing is: we're not really playing the bad guys here. The article tries to show how the game portrays the Vikings as the good guys and a force for progress.

A few quotes that I had to cut from the OP dealt with how genders are portrayed in the game. Basically the Vikings are more progressive than the Saxons, with female warriors and leaders, while the other group is much more patriarchal. And historically this is very much false, the Vikings were just as patriarchal as the Saxons, or very closely so.

And the author is very happy in pointing out why this can be a problem. Adding more female roles in not a problem, but when you do it on only one side, the implication is that this side is better tha the other. And when this side in the invaders, this become one more element that compounds into the portrail of imperialism as a good thing.
Discourse about female representation in a game about an invading army who raped, pillaged and took slaves in reality is the video game version of this

28c.png
 

Deleted member 8468

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
9,109
I've been getting a strong "are we the baddies?" vibe from this game and I don't like it one bit. Gameplay is fun, but I feel like nothing I'm doing is good for the majority of people in England.
 

Irminsul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,041
That's what I've been wondering about. Slavery was the backbone of scandinavian culture back in the day as it was in likely most places. But we generally don't glorify or celebrate those doing the kidnapping and colonization. Don't know why this white-washing of vikings is so common now.

Crazy how a japanese manga has the best and most honest depiction of vikings in popular media.
Eh, I'd say "The Last Kingdom" is up there too (and the fights are a bit more realistic 😉), though the mostly-Saxon perspective helps a bit, of course.

This has been an issue with Assassin's Creed for a while now. Most games in the series picture your side as the good guys and the other side as the bad guys and they have little to no redeeming qualities, so anything you do to them is positive and good.

It's not great and it's good to make people aware of it, because people who don't know about the specific time period can get a very wrong idea of how things actually were.
Well, the author argues that it's particularly egregious in this case because in past AC games, Ubisoft did not shy away from showing slavery, while here they very much do. And sure, you interacted with people in past games that weren't really "good guys", but not really outright invasion forces.

Thanks so much for this article. I don't play this game and I'm not ever planning on buying it (Not related to this, I'm just bored of Vikings), but I'm glad that more people are paying attention to the subtle ways that certain games promote/excuse the horrors done by western powers.
I don't think that's the point the author wants to get across at all, especially w.r.t. "western powers". They mention multiple times that colonialism is the problem and non-"Western" cultures are very well capable of doing that themselves (as well as "Western" cultures among themselves). In fact, one of their points is that the fact that the weird tone and message of this game isn't more scrutinized is because the ill-portrayed "bad guys" are Christian Saxons, when that shouldn't change anything at all.
 

Deleted member 46804

User requested account closure
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Aug 17, 2018
4,129
Yeah I'm enjoying the game but it'd be way better if the tone actually fit. Like even if we're not the "bad" guy we're not the good guy either. I'm pillaging churches and villages but am the good guy somehow.


Idk why protagonist = good guy ,in so many things
Because gamers can't accept their main character being scumbags. The reaction to Kane and Lynch being irredeemable characters that players had to play as put a lot of people off. It is an unfortunate reality. People are comfortable watching bad people in movies but not controlling them in video games.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Interesting topic OP!

I've talked about parts of this in the OT and got some helpful replies, I nearly stopped playing the game because I really don't feel like I have any choice at all in this game to play as the "good guy", which I always do in other games. The devs has chosen to tell a story that is difficult to swallow for me, it's about a bunch of hateful shitheads that only think about themselves. How do we get resources? We raid and plunder churches and villages. We're not freedom fighters here. How do we make ourselves important in the history of this country? We team up with even shittier shitheads and raid and plunder and take over the land.

Some in the OT explained that there are some good pay-offs later on but so far I've seen nothing that justifies what the vikings do. You're simply playing the villain here, that's my take. I decided to just shut off my brain instead and play the game for the gameplay instead of the story. Only time will tell if it's interesting enough to finish that way.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
Because gamers can't accept their main character being scumbags. The reaction to Kane and Lynch being irredeemable characters that players had to play as put a lot of people off. It is an unfortunate reality. People are comfortable watching bad people in movies but not controlling them in video games.
I mean it would help if Kane and Lynch were actually an enjoyable to play shooter with those themes vs. what it actually is: a substandard TPS that looks like someone poured a can of soup on the camera. If the aim of those games was to actually make an unpleasant feeling game like Manhunt then great but I don't think that was the actual intention.
 

Edgar

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Oct 29, 2017
7,180
Because gamers can't accept their main character being scumbags. The reaction to Kane and Lynch being irredeemable characters that players had to play as put a lot of people off. It is an unfortunate reality. People are comfortable watching bad people in movies but not controlling them in video games.
you dont even need to go to kane and lynch. People still think to this day that Joel is a piece of shit , a monster without any redeeming qualities and he deservered what he got .
 

obeast

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
559
I think the fact that both the attackers and defenders are westerns in this case make it more palatable and tolerable for the wider audience.

I agree. I don't think the monastery-sacking theme and general bemusement/contempt for the local religion would have been palatable to a 21st century audience with pretty much any other religion other than Christianity.

I have to say that personally I don't mind the whitewashing. I know very little about this historical period, but it was obvious to me while playing, even in my ignorance, that viking raids were probably pretty ugly things, and that the gender relations where almost certainly ahistorical (I think my tribe may be more progressive than nearly every modern country).

I think that it helps that it was so, so long ago. If you were making a game about 20th century Europe or 19th century America you would obviously have certain obligations to capture the ugly side of things, but for societies that existed more than a millennium ago I just don't see the need to capture the true immorality of things, as seen from a modern perspective. This is a fantasy game, with a deeply silly sci-fi premise. Maybe it would be interesting to make a game that actually grappled with the fact that your main character (and also literally everyone else) is an asshole as perceived by modern people, but the AC franchise is probably not the place for it.
 

angelgrievous

Middle fingers up
Member
Nov 8, 2017
9,142
Ohio
Because gamers can't accept their main character being scumbags. The reaction to Kane and Lynch being irredeemable characters that players had to play as put a lot of people off. It is an unfortunate reality. People are comfortable watching bad people in movies but not controlling them in video games.
But what about Joel and Ellie?
 

AuroraMusisAmica

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 16, 2018
701
While this game was making its media rounds over the past months, I was in the middle of my Irish history course. We were reading primary documents, many of them from monastic monks from 700-1000 praising God for another stormy night. It may mean being wet and miserable, but a storm meant that the vikings wouldn't arrive tomorrow to kill, rape, enslave, and pillage.

Archeological digs are still finding Nordic warlords buried with their ships, surrounded by hordes of Irish valuables (Ireland was pretty rich in gold in ancient times)

On the other hand, it was the Nords who settled and founded Dublin, and many Vikings in the later age settled down and became part of the greater Irish landscape and culture. Same thing happened with the Normans when they invaded later on.

Games are driven by narratives, within the lens of understanding (and goals: the game is primarily an entertainment device pushed at the mass market) of those who create it. History is a lot more complex, ugly, beautiful, terrible, etc. because human agency is often all of those things.

It'd be nice if games that took history for the sake of entertainment to wrestle with the lived experiences of those before them with more tact and humility.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Because gamers can't accept their main character being scumbags. The reaction to Kane and Lynch being irredeemable characters that players had to play as put a lot of people off. It is an unfortunate reality. People are comfortable watching bad people in movies but not controlling them in video games.
That really sucks.

Kane & Lynch was great because it was fresh. You play as two idiots who fuck up all the time and have no redeeming quality what so ever.

I miss when games did this.
 

Deleted member 46804

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Aug 17, 2018
4,129
I mean it would help if Kane and Lynch were actually an enjoyable to play shooter with those themes vs. what it actually is: a substandard TPS that looks like someone poured a can of soup on the camera. If the aim of those games was to actually make an unpleasant feeling game like Manhunt then great but I don't think that was the actual intention.
We can disagree on the gameplay but why does it have to be portrayed as unpleasant? The characters are portrayed as who they are, nothing more or less. There's zero glorification of them like say GTA or even the example you give of Manhunt where the protagonist is fighting a dude who is making literal snuff films. The whole point of the game is two bad dudes, making bad choices and continually fucking themselves and those around them. They aren't good guys. They aren't cool dudes. They are irredeemable filth and that's the point.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,991
This is why I'm always so uncomfortable with modern media's weird attempts to fetishize the Vikings. You have to do so much work to sanitize them.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
The funny thing is: we're not really playing the bad guys here. The article tries to show how the game portrays the Vikings as the good guys and a force for progress.
Oh, yes, I've read that. I was refering to what Vikings were in reality behind the facade Ubisoft trying to paint (of course bad vs good is still a bit too simplistic in reality). That's the layer that tries to make these guys look good I was talking about; they probably needed to paint the Vikings as good guys to reach their mainstream target audience.

In regards of gender and what I've read is that there's little evidence that Scandinavians were equally patriarchal because we know comparatively so little, but on the other hand we have much evidence that Britons were exactly that: very much patriarchal. I think this may result from a few DNA findings that showed there were women warriors among Vikings so the media probably picked up on that and liked depicting this positive "equality" picture to gain more traction and positive recognition despite seeing them murdering and rampaging on daily basis. Many sources suggest that women could own land and request divorces, although I'm not sure from where and what exactly the sources conclude that. So, from that perspective and what some findings tell us they had probably (slightly) more rights than the average woman in other European regions but it definitely had its limits and they were not near being equal to men. I think AC:V, as much as other Viking era shows and games, like to double down on the idea to make otherwise formidable characters more sympathetic.

This whole topic reminds me of AC: Syndicate that had some issues in regards to child labour. The game simplistically addressed the issue in side activities when you're the good guy (or woman) that frees children from the factories... into what exactly? The poverty was real and there's nothing you could done about it on a gameplay level except for "save" a few children, feel good and earn XP. Done. From a historical point of view, this is problematic as well to shrug off that issue as simplistic as Syndicate done it.

But you probably can't expect a mainstream video game to handle everything in detail (and critically).

Because gamers can't accept their main character being scumbags.
Wasn't Watch Dogs 1 being critised for that, too? I personally found it refreshing playing a scumbag without any twisted logic that tries to paint him as good guy. IIRC most people didn't like the idea and Ubisoft went another route in WD2.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
We can disagree on the gameplay but why does it have to be portrayed as unpleasant? The characters are portrayed as who they are, nothing more or less. There's zero glorification of them like say GTA or even the example you give of Manhunt where the protagonist is fighting a dude who is making literal snuff films. The whole point of the game is two bad dudes, making bad choices and continually fucking themselves and those around them. They aren't good guys. They aren't cool dudes. They are irredeemable filth and that's the point.
Max Payne 3 basically does the same thing but is actually enjoyable to play (albeit it's probably more generic than K&L). We can agree to disagree.
 

Deleted member 46804

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Aug 17, 2018
4,129
But what about Joel and Ellie?
What about them? They are given redeemable qualities and made as characters the player can't completely hate. They have relatable human goals whether you agree with them or not. They are written in such a way that the player can feel okay playing as them. They are charming and funny and witty in a lot of scenarios.