At what point were people chomping at the bit to eschew traditional Legend of Zelda in favor of something radically different?

[beansontoast]

That might be true, but think BOTW attracted a lot people that wasn't into the Zelda franchise before and was a major turn off for many long time fans. Sure, a lot of fans of the franchise also welcomed the changes in BOTW.

Click to shrink...

I know that some long time fans have been turned off, but I genuinely think they actually are a tiny, but vocal, minority.

And while many of the buyers of BOTW were either new to the series, or returning from a hiatus, a large proportion of those were probably potential customers for TP/SS etc, but in a post Oblivion/Skyrim & GTA/Red Dead world, might not have found that very rigid formula interesting.

 

[StreamedHams]

*champing

"chomping at the bit" is not a saying.

Click to shrink...

"one is technically more correct"

Click to shrink...

Which is fine because you stated it was not a saying, not more correct. If people say it, it's a saying. I don't necessarily like it, but that's what English is.

On topic: I feel like the real Zelda standard was created with LttP, with the 3/8 pre/post master sword adventure motif. Locking progression out of items availability was something that happens since Zelda 1. The biggest outliers have been Zelda II, and BotW. I didn't like OoT due to poor performance on the N64. I quite enjoyed Wind Waker due to art direction and performance on the GCN. TP was pretty stale and I my personal preference moved on from the grey and muddy 6th generation accepted color pallet. Never played SS, and haven't seen a compelling reason to play it. BotW is fantastic, and I felt the most interest in exploring since Zelda 1.

 

[Tora]

How can anyone hate on Twilight Princess wtf

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Skyward Sword killed the franchise for me. Hated it and I wasn't fond of Twilight Princess either.

Thank god BOTW happened.

 

[andymcc]

I'm still of the belief that BotW isn't quite the radical change the series has needed/deserved, like so many perceive it to be. If anything (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) but Elden Ring is actually closer to what I hoped/wanted BotW to actually be. Albeit, it too is a game I think is flawed in certain ways.

Click to shrink...

Well, most of the Zelda games are flawed in one way or another. But I'm interested in what you think Elden Ring delivered to satisfy what you wanted out of BOTW? To me, BOTW still has the better open world with a much more "lived in" state— ie NPCs and towns that are worth something, weather impacting mechanics, a true "you can't go anywhere feeling (ER has tons of invisible walls and poorly implemented fall damage), better enemy AI and behavior...

I think the integration of dungeons relative to the world map is the main strength of ER and that's the thing I hope to see in BOTW2

How can anyone hate on Twilight Princess wtf

Click to shrink...

Because it's an overly verbose, ugly chore to play

 

[Efejota]

Apart from it's linearity or lack of side-objectives, Twilight Princess' main flaw for me was the enemy AI and how little health they'd take from you. The darknuts were my favourite enemy because they could get really hard to beat on narrow spaces, but there were very few of them.

If the Bokoblins from TP were as smart as those in BotW and you had some complementary mysteries to discover on your own like on Majora's Mask, I think the game would be regarded much better, because the variety in terms of dungeons/enviroments is pretty great.

Skyward had an interesting idea by making the overworld a big dungeon, but that meant that everything in the overworld had to be mandatory. The only few side objectives we had were all put together on small sky islands, so the game felt much smaller than it actually was.

 

[Glio]

I'm still of the belief that BotW isn't quite the radical change the series has needed/deserved, like so many perceive it to be. If anything (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) but Elden Ring is actually closer to what I hoped/wanted BotW to actually be. Albeit, it too is a game I think is flawed in certain ways.

But to answer the original question: Skyward Sword was so underwhelming for me that after beating it I knew Nintendo had to do something big and bold to keep me interested in the 3D games. A Link Between Worlds I really enjoyed so, at the time, I wasn't particularly worried about smaller-scale Zelda titles going the same way. I think BotW gets about two-thirds of the way there, so here's hoping the sequel rectifies my issues with the copy-paste dungeons/shrines.

Click to shrink...

Do you wanted a Zelda without puzzles?

Why?

 

[slothrop]

How can anyone hate on Twilight Princess wtf

Click to shrink...

it just felt like OoT + bigger. The wolf thing felt like an overreaction to sentiments at the time that games needed to be "dark and cool" after Wind Waker. Idk the game just felt like it was just boxed into a formula for the first time to me, rather than well, basically every game before it in the series, which had not been afraid to take risks or even invent entire mechanics that spread through the industry at times. Obviously it did a number of things quite well regardless though, I mean the team is still quality -- the dungeons were top notch for example.

Even Skyward Sword, which by all means really had a lot more issues, was still a more interesting experiment to me.

 

[LumberPanda]

I think getting to play Oblivion and Skyrim was when people started wanting something different from Zelda - but not for the "every game needs to be open world now" reason that you might think.

Skyward Sword's dungeons were peak dungeons. But once you're outside the dungeons it's a checklist of specific things you need to do to get to those peak dungeons. It doesn't capture the idea of going on an adventure, it captures going for a guided tour at an amusement park.

It's not that the formula is "bad" (it's great, I want more 2D Zelda games with the Zelda formula), but the formula just doesn't inspire the way the old games did when they were cutting edge. When Ocarina of Time came out 3D games that compared to that sense of adventure were limited and the formula wasn't beaten into us yet.

But as time went on, other developers not only caught up to Zelda, but pushed new things - and comparatively the illusion of adventure was gone. Once you try big open worlds, the "do this list of things in order to go to each of the three dungeons you're currently allowed to go to" can be fun but it does not give the feeling of "adventure" anymore.

It didn't necessarily have to come in an open world package though. If they were to iterate on the Zelda formula in a different way, I would love something where all the dungeons were connected in a Metroid-esque layout, and you had to discover shortcuts between dungeons and unlock bigger and bigger puzzles that use steps in all of them. I would feel a sense of adventure exploring this unknown labyrinth and finding the secrets of how it works at my own pace. I know others would hate that though.

 

[Blue_Toad507]

Skyward Sword.
Wander around a slow paced opening for 2 hours, finally get the sword.
Reach dungeon, get item, get boss key, fight boss. Repeat two times.
Get Master Sword.
Reach dungeon, get item, get boss key, fight boss. Repeat two times.
Do final dungeon and fight final boss.

That's not even including all the fetch quests, backtracking and Silent Realms. I realised how tired I was of the Zelda formula. ALBW was a step in the right direction, but BotW was the shake up the series desperately needed.

 

[chrisPjelly]

Definitely started around the time Twilight Princess was revealed. Escalated A LOOOT when the DS games came and went and peaked when Skyward Sword finally released.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Me, personally? Never, really, I would have been fine with whatever as long it was well-made. I'm pretty easygoing!

Click to shrink...

Same here

 

[El Crono]

It wasn't the traditional Zelda formula that weighed me down.

It was all the nonsense baggage attached to it that made me feel less like a hero and more like the game's puppet.

Click to shrink...

This is me. The main gameplay is fine, even with hit-or-miss mechanics in each game (like the navigation aspect of WindWaker, which annoyed me more than it marveled me). But I got really tired by the fact that narrative-wise all Zelda games are the same and you never see any real evolution in Link's character since Ocarina of Time (even if that is by design as Nintendo claims Link is an avatar for the player).

BotW stirred things up a bit by introducing the most interesting cast I've met in any Zelda game. I'm curious as to how Nintendo is gonna follow up with the sequel.

 

[Jencks]

I never really did.

Feels like the most vocal people in this camp are from those who grew up with the original 2-3 and wanted the series to go in a direction different than it did. You'll likely see these same people saying Elden Ring is what Zelda should be.

The best aspect of Zelda is that it's a very good mixture of exploration, puzzles, and combat all wrapped up in a charming bow. Each game pushes this triangle of gameplay elements a slightly different amount which gives each of them a distinct feel. Zelda from WW to SS felt like it was getting increasingly constricting in the puzzle aspect so they sprung in a different direction.

I personally hope this rodeo ride of priorities never changes. Helps keep the series feeling fresh.

 

[lord_of_flood]

In general, the release of Skyward Sword was definitely when that feeling hit its peak, but those feelings were also brewing during a time when games with large open worlds were becoming popular (Skyrim, Fallout 3, etc. came out around that time), so I think it's a mix of franchise fatigue and people wanting Zelda to follow in the footsteps of the big open world games that were starting to crop up.

 

[Hilarious_Bearious]

I was always happy with the Zelda formula. Even Skyward Sword on Switch, with its garbage controls and bloated second half full of filler, was an enjoyable romp for me. When BotW hit, it was like a welcome but unexpected change. If they keep evolving 3D Zelda while keeping 2D Zelda alive with the more traditional format, I'll be very happy.

 

[Hippopuncher12]

I didn't. I'm always fine with evolving formulas and whatnot but I personally hate what they did with BoTW, the open world is fine and I would love one that was filled with tons of traditional Zelda enemies but everything else was just a meh to me. So now my only hope is they keep making 2D games in the traditional way since at least for now the BoTW style isn't gonna go anywhere.

 

[Deleted member 61531]

And because Souls has to be a part of every conversation...

Why did the Zelda formula feel run into the ground after 6 games (LttP, OoT, MM, WW, TP, SS)

But the Souls' formula is chugging along and more popular than ever 6 games in (DeS, DS1, DS2, BB, DS3, ER). They're all pretty similar.

Click to shrink...

On this note, it's a good opportunity to jump in and say I disagree with the entire premise. I think there are certainly players who got tired of the formula at various points, but the loudest outcry since BotW is from people who want to return to the old ways.

I think Zelda could've continued clipping along quite well if it stayed the course, if it had done two things: dropped the weird experimental entries (i.e. Skyward Sword doesn't exist) and focused on a linear, conservative concept of a series, as Souls does (i.e. each entry is bigger, prettier, with more X, Y and Z).

Some in this thread have pointed out Mario Galaxy as an innovative contrast to it's contemporary Zelda counterparts, but I disagree with that too. 3D Mario is absolute proof positive that you can focus on a conservative, iterative approach with graphical updates and minor gameplay changes for a really long time: Odyssey and Mario 64 are very close to each other. If you showed a space alien both games back to back and said they were direct sequels with no entries in between, you would likely be vaporized or abducted, but any human within earshot would think that sounds kind of plausible.

Typical disclaimer text: this is not meant as a dig to Mario, I love all of the 3D games including Sunshine. I'm also not itching for a return to old Zelda: BotW is one of the best games ever made.

 

[SharpX68K]

Imagine if Nintendo 64 had the capabilities of the Gamecube in 1995 and launched in 1995, and Twilight Princess released in 1998 without OoT ever being made. Aside from the extra awe of going from SNES 3D capabilities with SuperFX/FX2, to something than can render 6-12 million polys, what do you think would be the reaction to snd opinion of Twilight Princess in the late 90s as the first 3D Zelda?

 

[andymcc]

Imagine if Nintendo 64 had the capabilities of the Gamecube in 1995 and launched in 1995, and Twilight Princess released in 1998 without OoT ever being made. Aside from the extra awe of going from SNES 3D capabilities with SuperFX/FX2, to something than can render 6-12 million polys, what do you think would be the reaction to snd opinion of Twilight Princess in the late 90s as the first 3D Zelda?

Click to shrink...

i would still think it's an overly verbose game that i would not like to revisit-- much for the same reason that i don't replay a lot of JRPGs from the PS1 era, despite liking them upon release.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Personally, I never got burned out on "traditional Zelda". Loved Twilight Princess, adored Skyward Sword.

However, Breath of the Wild was a sea change and I absolutely enjoyed the change of pace.

In retrospect, I think Skyward Sword was pretty much the limit on pure linear design for the franchise, carried strongly by puzzle design and story beats. With weaker puzzles or weaker characters/emotion, it definitely would have dragged for me in the second half. Even as strong as Skyward Sword was, the Imprisoned fights were a sign that over-repetition did not suit the linear nature of the traditional formula. The repetitive boss fights in Breath of the Wild are often more easily forgiven due to the player setting the pace between those fights or even choosing to skip some of them entirely.

As much as some still wrongly hate on Skyward Sword, even they have to admit we would not have gotten to Breath of the Wild without it.

I'm really hoping Breath of the Wild 2 gives us some more linear game segments with Zelda underground.

Click to shrink...

Your the 1st person I've seen call SS' characters weaker than others which I find interesting as I find SS was universally praised in atleast one category and that was it's characters and story

 

[simmias]

Which is fine because you stated it was not a saying, not more correct. If people say it, it's a saying. I don't necessarily like it, but that's what English is.

Click to shrink...

In the immortal words of George Carlin: "Fuck popular usage."

 

[LumberPanda]

And because Souls has to be a part of every conversation...

Why did the Zelda formula feel run into the ground after 6 games (LttP, OoT, MM, WW, TP, SS)

But the Souls' formula is chugging along and more popular than ever 6 games in (DeS, DS1, DS2, BB, DS3, ER). They're all pretty similar.

Click to shrink...

Firstly, it's not just 6 games. You're missing Link's Awakening, Oracle of Seasons, Oracle of Ages, Minish Cap, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks. BotW isn't the first try ditching the Zelda formula - A Link Between Worlds was.

Secondly, BloodBorne really shouldn't be there. It differs heavily in both the combat department and the world department. The similarities end at things like "there's lock-on (Z-targeting) and a dodge button. Bosses have health bars. You have attacks." That being said, quite a few people have expressed they've felt a bit fatigued by Demon's Souls 5 (Elden Ring). I think by Elden Ring 2 or 3 people who jumped on From with Demon's Souls will feel exhausted at the idea of playing "Demon's Souls 8, but with even more open world padding".

Lastly, it's a very specific formula people were feeling fatigued with. The scripted set of overworld tasks/requirements, followed by 1-3 dungeons, repeat, wasn't particularly exciting anymore. It didn't instill the sense of adventure we wanted from a series where the main selling point of the original was sending you on a grand adventure. From's games are all just pushing forward through combat and you can dabble in NPCs and lore if you want at your own pace, there's not really a "formula" besides "play". People who don't like the combat still make way too many threads but they just don't word it like "I'm fatigued of the formula".

Your the 1st person I've seen call SS' characters weaker than others which I find interesting as I find SS was universally praised in atleast one category and that was it's characters and story

Click to shrink...

I think they're saying SS has the best characters, but if characters were weak then it would drag.

 

[Griffith]

I don't necessarily think Zelda needed to be different. I just think that it just needed to be better.

Twilight Princess, though featuring some amazing dungeons and great art direction, felt unfinished. Skyward Sword felt like a step back and less inspired than previous Zelda games, even though some of the puzzles (like the desert ones), were really cool.

It's worth remembering that A Link Between Worlds came out after Skyward Sword and despite not being radically different from previous Zelda games it was very well received by both fans and newcomers alike.

It's not the formula that got tiring, it's the execution that was poor.

 

[ZiZ]

The formula was never stale for me. I don't recall people having an issue with the formula. It was more specific issues with each release. (e.g. Tutorials take too long, Fi won't shut up, etc)

It wasn't like current open world games where they churn out a bunch of games and they all follow the same formula with slight differences (you unlock towers and clear enemies, there are hundreds of icons on the map that barely give you anything, but in this one you're a viking/you're a samurai/it's an FPS/you fight robot dinosaurs etc).

There really wasn't anyone else doing the Zelda formula except maybe Darksiders.
Add to that every Zelda game had game changing mechanics and played around with all kinds of things like combat, traversal, tone, NPC interactions etc.

 

[BY2K]

This is where I land. I love all the Zeldas. Where I want evolution is from Link and Zelda as characters.

Click to shrink...

And Ganondorf.

PLEASE, Nintendo, do Ganondorf justice in BOTW2.

 

[Lobster Roll]

What is traditional Zelda?

Or aren't they ALL traditional Zelda?

I think the core of pretty much every Zelda game i the same, down to the boss you fight. The weapons you collect, items...etc. Their implementation just varies from game to game.

Guess what I am saying is that all Zelda games feel familiar, most feel very very different. TP was my worst one though. Only Zela I didn't even bother finishing. Stil shocked both SS and TP are over 90 on Metacritic...

Click to shrink...

Core Zelda is exploration and discovery, down to the dungeons themselves. You follow the most interesting path and you find secrets, enemies, NPCs, obstacles, and yes - dungeons. As the game has grown, the 3D side of the series become less about exploring and more about dungeons dungeons dungeons. Like they're great; people enjoy them. But Core Zelda is exploring, getting lost, and discovering cool things. I think that's why BOTW was so popular is because it channeled the core concepts and delivered that sense of wonder again.

 

[Freshmaker]

Since Breath of the Wild for me. Open worlds with no point aren't interesting.

 

[onpoint]

I think Twilight Princess was where I wanted them to go back to how the original game felt. Big, open, mysterious and as little hand holding as possible. Skyward Sword solidified that desire though.

And I feel like I mostly got that in BotW. So hopefully they build off of what that game got right going forward.

 

[Yiepekaiyei]

There's nothing wrong with traditional zelda. It's just that Twilight Princess and Skyward sword were bad games, bad zelda games at least.

 

[Guru Meditation]

Started feeling it in Twilight princess but the dungeons were so good it got a pass. Didn't even finish skyward sword.

 

[ibyea]

I don't understand this notion of getting tired of the zelda formula. There is not a lot of games like it. Other than Zelda, there is what? Okami, Darksiders 1, and then what?

 

[Guru Meditation]

I don't understand this notion of getting tired of the zelda formula. There is not a lot of games like it. Other than Zelda, there is what? Okami, Darksiders 1, and then what?

Click to shrink...

It was becoming predictable. That's ok for some series but Zelda is held to a high standard. It's often been a series that drives the industry forward.

 

[Rizific]

I never got to that point. I know what Zelda is and I like it because it's a Zelda. Botw was certainly amazing, but if I got another game in the same vain of TP or Skyward, I would have been fine.

 

[Silent]

Zelda games are so different from one another that I don't see how people can say they all follow one "Zelda formula." Yes, there are consistent elements across the series, but I think it's a little reductive to say it's stale because it maintains those same elements. You can deconstruct any series this way by hyper focusing on the structure of the game. I don't think there's any series that changes more than Zelda while at the same time criticized for staying the same. I mean, you can't even predict what the next Zelda game will even look like. How many games can claim that?

 

[Jarchafiend]

Probably never. In fact, I miss the traditional Zelda style.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

The specific moments for me were

• The Spinner in TP immediately becoming useless outside Arbiter's Grounds, cementing how the game felt limiting
• Those allies you meet along the way in TP amounting to just a cutscene in the last dungeon
• Losing save data and having to redo the opening of SS
• The second or third imprisoned fight, realising how restrictive snd protracted everything in the game was, from player movement to overall structure

It really felt like each 3D Zelda was more limiting than the last, steadily entrenching itself in a "do this thing in this specific way at this specific time," approach.

To varying degrees, it always felt like I was thinking about what the game wants me to do, compared to BotW where I was always thinking about what I wanted to do,

 

[Mr. Genuine]

Zelda was on a consistent path of progress and innovation from Zelda 1 to Wind Waker. After the juvenile "Cel-da" complaints Nintendo got very conservative and boring with Zelda.

 

[ibyea]

It was becoming predictable. That's ok for some series but Zelda is held to a high standard. It's often been a series that drives the industry forward.

Click to shrink...

I disagree on the notion that the zelda series is predictable and the notion that a franchise should always stay ahead of the industry all the time. There is nothing wrong with expaning on previous structures or changing the balance of various gameplay elements that a new zelda game does almost every time. Heck, the only zelda game that you can accuse of being derivative is twilight princess, which incidentally is my least favorite 3d zeldas.

 

[chocolate]

Never.

I played and loved every Zelda game. Some more than others, but I was pretty happy with what I got for the most part.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Skyward Sword tutorial felt 15 hours long

 

[Lobster Roll]

The specific moments for me were

• The Spinner in TP immediately becoming useless outside Arbiter's Grounds, cementing how the game felt limiting
• Those allies you meet along the way in TP amounting to just a cutscene in the last dungeon
• Losing save data and having to redo the opening of SS
• The second or third imprisoned fight, realising how restrictive snd protracted everything in the game was, from player movement to overall structure

It really felt like each 3D Zelda was more limiting than the last, steadily entrenching itself in a "do this thing in this specific way at this specific time," approach.

To varying degrees, it always felt like I was thinking about what the game wants me to do, compared to BotW where I was always thinking about what I wanted to do,

Click to shrink...

The spinner is the first thing I think of when I picture Zelda McGuffins.

 

[kurt]

I remember this feeling setting in about half-way through The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I was so burned out on the Zelda formula that I had to slog to the end of Twilight Princess and skipped Skyward Sword altogether. I don't know if the formula itself that got stale or how it was executed. Could traditional AAA Zelda (remakes, smaller projects not withstanding) have continued beyond Skyward Sword or was that formula a dead end?

I think traditional Zelda peaked with Majora's Mask but if Wind Waker had been properly finished and followed up with a true sequel I'd be all aboard a continued Trad Zelda timeline. Twilight Princess is exactly where The Legend of Zelda lost its magic for me.

Click to shrink...

I dont think that the formule is the problem.
Both games are great but are not at level of prev zelda games. If they would convert zelda lttp to 3d magical world, you would still playing the old formule. I didnt enjoy zelda tp because of multiple reasons. Things like collecting tears, painfull tutorial mode, generic gfx, etc...

Skyward sword had a bit of the same issues, but was a bit better.

I think zelda besides puzzling and action is about curiosity. That one of the reason why botw is so amazing.

BOTW is too open and has extremely lackluster dungeons, what I feel comfortable in saying is the worst boss designs in the series (considering they're pretty much the same...

As someone who has 0 interest in the Souls series, it sucks that Zelda is apparently being influenced by it and there's no alternative for me to jump to.

Wind Waker to this day is still my favorite game of all time, just an absolute masterpiece.

Click to shrink...

If you would compare botw with a classic zelda game, i would understand your point. But botw is about having the amount of freedom that cant be seen in any open world game. The game where you can go straight to a boss, gliding and climbing every moutain. It was new, fresh, fun. Im sure the sequel one would have better dungeons. The world reflects the artwork of zelda 1 in some ways. But they should develop another zelda "classic style" game like zelda lttp in 3d. A not too open world, but where you can see the huge distance that you can travel.

"it sucks that Zelda is apparently being influenced"
Not sure what you mean. Zelda has zero things taken from souls games. (The otherway around on the otherhand....) Also, souls is a total diff game.

Wind waker is a good game. But has also flaws. Its unfinished to start with. But i prefer it over zelda tp and zelda ss.

 

[dietandexercise]

Huge Zelda fan and I love the dungeons. Hope to see them return. But, I think they were stretching the Zelda formula as a whole quite thin. Still love every individual game, but I think it was high time to mix it up. The level design in the dungeons themselves became largely linear as well, and the puzzles were becoming increasingly trivial. To the point where traversing many of the dungeons became frictionless. In that the puzzles were so obvious they rarely even registered to me as a puzzle. Jus the game prompting me to do XYZ. Still love the theming, etc.

I think many of BOTW's overworld puzzles were more thoughtful and engaging than we'd seen in conventional dungeons for years. And to a lesser extent, many shrine puzzles too, although they were more variable.

That being said, while I admire BOTW's incredibly streamlined approach, focusing every game feature around core design tenants, I do hope to see more traditional dungeons return to the series. I think it can be done without sacrificing any of the innovation brought by BOTW. But if they do return, I hope to see the same level of innovation and thoughtfulness applied to the old dungeon formula that was applied to BOTW as a whole.

I think if you put the dungeons from say twilight princess and inserted them into BOTW as is, adjusting for basic mechanics, they'd feel terribly out of place. I think the 3D zeldas were increasingly made for a younger and younger audience, while BOTW had more broad appeal and was more challenging and seamless.

 

[Watershed]

Like the OP, I felt like Zelda needed a major shake up while playing Twilight Princess. Both the outdated graphics and very formulaic progression clashed harshly along side the HD generation of games. TP ended up being a real slog. Though I finished Skyward Sword at launch and generally enjoyed it, by that time I was convinced that Zelda needed a major refresh. Thank god for ALBW and BOTW.

 

[Tedmilk]

Skyward Sword for me, without a doubt. I loved TP, but didn't even finish SS.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

I remember many Skyward Sword reviews were basically like "This is a serviceable to very good Zelda but outside these (divisive) sword motion controls the formula needs a shakeup."

Click to shrink...

And yet it got a 93 MC :/

 

[KtotheRoc]

You could see Nintendo themselves thinking the franchise needed a shake up. A Link Between Worlds and Hyrule Warriors came about because they felt the formula had gotten stale.

 

[SkyOdin]

It was definitely Twilight Princess. At that point, the game was retreading not just themes but specific dungeons from Ocarina of Time. On top of that, TP had a problem where just about every major item became useless as soon as you left the dungeon where you earned it. TP was the Zelda formula ground down to its least creative form.

 

[Phendrift]

Zelda has a strange history from a certain POV.

Ocarina of Time is seen by many, many people as epitome of the core Zelda formula and design concepts. But compared to non-3D Zelda games it has a lot of problems and limitations: such as its terrible and almost non-existent overworld, to slow and awkward forced sequences gating access to the next dungeon. But the novelty of it being 3D really burned itself into popular consciousness.

After Ocarina, there was never a 3D Zelda game it seems everyone was really happy with.

Majora's Mask: too mechanically strange and thematically weird for many.
WInd Waker: "Celda", sailing mechanics, padding, bad endgame, few dungeons, incredibly easy.
Twilight Princess: Dull brown art direction, by-the-numbers, feels too long, interrupting wolf sequences
Skyward Sword: motion controls, repetitive boss sequences and once again a bad "overworld", lots of dungeons but few unique areas.

Essentially, after Ocarina of Time and before BotW there wasn't a 3D Zelda that the audience seemed generally happy with. Every game was criticized for being pretty flawed and frustrating.

Only the 2D games seemed to retain high approval through all this - except for the two touch-screen games for the DS, due to their highly experimental mechanics. And how different The Adventure of Link is (but it has a strong fanbase). Compared 3D Zelda, it's nearly universal love for:

The Legend of Zelda
A Link to the Past
Link's Awakening
Oracle of Ages
Oracle of Seasons
The Minish Cap
A Link Between Worlds

Personally, I think what the general audience was unhappy with and perhaps blaming on "stale feeling" was the 3D games missing a key element from the 2D side: a robust overworld and feeling of exploration. Even Twilight Princess didn't do a great job of this - Nintendo seemed afraid of a 3D overworld with too much combat or time spent outside of dungeons.

There's some irony here, in that the number 1 complaint about Breath of the Wild is its lack of traditional Zelda dungeons. On the other hand, BotW seems to have massively served a longstanding desire for a 3D Zelda game with a proper overworld and tons of self-directed exploration. I wonder if the enthusiasm for this aspect of BotW has reframed the conversation towards "Zelda players wanting something radically different", when it's really "Players bored and frustrated with 3D Zelda never translating a core element of 2D Zelda."

Click to shrink...

Ehhh I think this misreads the situation kinda wrt the 2D games. 3D Zeldas are just WAY more hyped and scrutinized. You have to remember the general reception to each one when it released is like a bonafide masterpiece except SS. But they're a bigger deal and more popular, so they are more scrutinized and nitpicked, and the vocal minority come out.

I really really don't think the Oracles or Minish Cap are considered the same tier as Twilight Princess even. They're great for what they are, but no one is looking at them to be the high mark of the series, the blockbuster AAA Nintendo title of the generation.