Audiences keep missing the point of asshole characters- Should authors stop writing them?

[PSqueak]

Kinda inspired from the reactions from the Scott Pilgrim vs the World thread.

I think it's well understood by most of us that a protagonist doesn't have to necessarily a paragon of virtue and someone we should look up to, not all stories have to be about Superman, and great stories about awful people can be incredibly enjoyable.

But it seems that some of these stories about awful people just, like, fly over the head of people.

Walter White, Rick Sanchez, Bojack Horseman, Scott Pilgrim, Don Draper, these are all incredibly awful people that are protagonists and their stories are interesting, but they were never meant to be people you wanted to be like, they were just supposed to be interesting to watch, not role models.

Yet an embarrassingly large number of people saw these characters and thought, "man these guys are awesome, i want to be like them!", literally taking the opposite lessons than intended from all of them.

And i get it, there will always be idiots that just don't get it, but we live in the age of the incel and the MRA, these idiots idolizing this kind of character can be pretty worrisome, do we really want these assholes watching Rick babble about how Being an asshole is just a side effect of being smart and feeling validated?

It's kinda of a sad affair, because the authors are not to blame, it's people with the emotional maturity of a child that apparently cannot understand any depth in story telling unless it's explicitly pointed out for them.

How do y'all feel about this?

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

For me it just depends if they are one demintional and don't have a reason for their actions. Basically like how well written villains need to believe they are doing the right thing.

We are talking protagonist, but it's still a situation of building a world that needs a villain or anti-hero.

 

[spam musubi]

Let me quote a relevant post I made yesterday (re: writing characters as assholes):

I mean, writing characters as such needs to serve a purpose, as does any other writing choice, especially in a story driven game. If you don't really do anything meaningful with behavior like that then it's just crass and potentially comes off as endorsing it. Depictions have consequences. You could make a game where you represent a realistic slave owner in a plantation, but it's just cheap and exploitative if you don't use that to make a point and treat the subject with required gravity. So I don't see "it's realistic" as a valid defense on its own.

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[Gustaf]

like you said is not about the authors of the characters because, being honest, rick and walter for example show so much deep in their personas that you really can say they are just "asshole"

is that deepness what makes them great.


obviously idiots like you say never see that deepness they just want validation for their assholery

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Writers shouldn't necessarily have to be held accountable for the ways socially maladjusted young men misinterpret their characters. People have been doing it forever - there are people who idolize Holden freaking Caulfield.

 

[ironjoe]

In all seriousness, it would seem people miss the point on these characters all the time. If an idiot somewhere wants to idolize a maniac, or start their own fight club, what can you do? Some of these characters are designed to be awful, and there's not much you can do if equally awful people want to be them.

 

[HulkMansfield]

Just because dumbasses exist doesn't mean good material should cease. You can learn a lot about how a person reacts and thinks by absorbing characters with depth. If someone has no concept of what it means to be a good person otherwise, I'm not sure converting a movie theater into a school is really the place to begin.

Edit: I don't mean "i'm not sure". I'm 100% fuckin positive of it.

 

[Bakercat]

Youre supposed to laugh at Eric Cartman, not laugh with him.

 

[faceless]

it's not just fiction, people idolize Steve Jobs and Elon Musk.

 

[Zippedpinhead]

Its not hard to identify with some of these characters (specifically Walter White's plight especially at the beginning of season 1), or see traits that you wish you had (like Don Draper, living the rich, american dream in a time which we don't really understand outside of the saturday morning howdy doody/ leave it to Beaver/ andy Griffith shows previously shown).

By seeing these traits and wishes, you start to idealize them before it is truly realized how bad they are (see "I am the one who knocks" for Walter). And then if you already idolized them, you continue to do so even with them being terrible people.

 

[etrain911]

I don't think it is on authors to change their authorial intent or write stories that they don't want to write just because some people who consume them are misguided.

 

[CopyOfACopy]

I don't know what you mean

 

[SliceSabre]

Just because people misinterpret character doesn't mean a character type should stop being used.

 

[SeeingeyeDug]

People always forget Vic Mackey from the Shield in these kinds of lists. That was the first real memorable asshole protagonist for me and that show was amazing.

 

[Francesco]

Yes, we must all lower our standards for the good of the democratic idiocy.

 

[marrec]

We have to have stories about assholes, in fact, we've ALWAYS had stories about assholes and they've always been misunderstood or misinterpreted.

I suppose back in Dostoevsky's day his writings weren't reaching the scale of something like Breaking Bad, but something like Breaking Bad is also complete pop culture drivel compared to actual impactful media.

 

[ak1287]

No.
I don't even really feel the need to qualify this statement; it should be self evident that there is no inherent need to water down a narrative or stop using a narrative device because people don't understand it.

 

[jay]

By seeing these traits and wishes, you start to idealize them before it is truly realized how bad they are (see "I am the one who knocks" for Walter).

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Oh man, is that the sweet episode where Walter finally owns becoming the total badass we all wish we could be?

 

[bye]

with Walter White the show kind of frames him in a more heroic light though, even through him becoming a piece of shit. It's easy to see why people would excuse his behavior away as him being a "badass"

 

[-JD-]

imagine a figurative scale that balances tenuously between power fantasy and critique. I believe the problem with some of these writers and their characters is the frequency of which they indulge in the power fantasy, which irrevocably tips that scale for certain audiences. It's the issue with characters like Don Draper and Walter White.

On the other side, I think the Sopranos found this balance with Tony Soprano. At no point, even from the jump, did you mistake him for anything other than an awful human being.

 

[itwasTuesday]

 

[PSqueak]

I don't know what you mean

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I like your style.

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I realized after i hit post that i forgot to also mention this, possibly the scariest example of all.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

with Walter White the show kind of frames him in a more heroic light though, even through him becoming a piece of shit. It's easy to see why people would excuse his behavior away as him being a "badass"

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Walt's story starts out kind of heroic (he's dying, he's trying to provide for his family the best way he can!), but it becomes clear pretty quickly that we're not watching the rise of a hero but the prolonged and tragic collapse of a desperate man pushed to his limit.

The problem is that, like Scarface, people never seem to remember that stories like these are cautionary tales and character studies more than they are aspirational fiction.

 

[Deleted member 13798]

No?

It's not a creators fault that people are dumb and take things at face value. But some creators also write very shallow assholess without nuance.

 

[Titik]

The problem with the Scot pilgrim movie was that it was Sera playing as Sera. I had a hard time believing that he was an asshole *and* able to get all these girls. Mind you that someone like that definitely exists. Just not the way Sera portrayed it. Sera's pilgrim was just an asshole.

 

[DJGolfClap]

Tony Montana is the poster child for this.

 

[Deleted member 9479]

I'm kinda offended by the suggestion it should even be considered.

 

[y2kyle89]

Bojack does address this in Season 5.


Also has a catchy musical about how terrible it would be to be Bojack.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I think BoJack Horseman is an extremely effective and inspiring protagonist (by way of negative example), so perhaps what's needed for asshole protagonists is to:
- Also be losers, and I don't mean "lovable losers" like Scott Pilgrim, that in the end defeat the villain and get the girl anyway; but life-crushingly depressing losers like BoJack. I cannot imagine anyone watching BoJack Horseman and wanting to be like him in pretty much any conceivable sense. Ideally, being a loser is a consequence of being an asshole.
- Show the asshole realizing they are assholes, and actually struggle to be better. This is also inspirational for obvious reasons, not to mention an excellent source of drama.

BoJack also shows why he's like that (truly messed up childhood), and in a nice twist we get to see why his mother was like that, too. I'm ambivalent on this, because while it makes for great character and world building, it's a double edged sword in the sense that people justify being assholes all the fucking time because of past events. And in most cases, they actually had it better than many other people, but of course the core defining feature of assholes is self-centeredness. A lot of people suffered during childhood; some people just turn that suffering into empathy towards everyone else who suffers, instead.

 

[Greg NYC3]

Youre supposed to laugh at Eric Cartman, not laugh with him.

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I honestly thought that Cartman was the focus of this thread before I read the OP. I can't think of a better example of a character that was meant to be a representation of everything you're not supposed to want to be but somehow became the most influential instead. After watching a bit of a marathon of it yesterday though I feel like Parker and Stone deliberately changed the way his character's actions were presented over time to make it less obvious that you shouldn't want to be like him.

 

[SweetVermouth]

They shouldn't stop writing them, but I am so confused by people who actively like and root for such characters. Like damn you are not supposed to like them. They're also portrayed through cinematogrophy, music and dialogue as bad, the whole movie basically screams at you "you are not supposed to root for or like this character" and yet people still do that. People are not watching movies anymore, they just brainlessly look at pretty moving images.

 

[meowdi gras]

Here's an AMC publicity shot of Walter White from Breaking Bad. Yeah, men viewers aren't supposed to think he's cool or badass or someone to root for at all:

 

[collige]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone idolize Bojack in the same way as Walter, Scarface, etc

Walt's story starts out kind of heroic (he's dying, he's trying to provide for his family the best way he can!), but it becomes clear pretty quickly that we're not watching the rise of a hero but the prolonged and tragic collapse of a desperate man pushed to his limit.

The problem is that, like Scarface, people never seem to remember that stories like these are cautionary tales and character studies more than they are aspirational fiction.

Click to shrink...

Maybe for the first episode, but he very very quickly goes off the rails after he turns down free treatment out of pride then borderline sexually assault his wife while on an adrenaline-fueled power trip. Breaking Bad is kind of a special case for this phenomenon since the entire point of the show was to initially frame Walter as a relatively good guy even though his actions revealed him to be full of shit right from the start.

 

[a916]

it's not just fiction, people idolize Steve Jobs and Elon Musk.

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Do they, or do they idolize the money/success and the adoration that comes with it, bad person traits be damned, they want that money?

 

[Deleted member 15240]

Some of these are absolutely written to be liked. You're supposed to get a kick out of seeing Walter go from a literally impotent put upon loser to a cold confident druglord. Hell, the finale allowed Walter to go out exactly as he wanted so the writers probably liked him just as much as some members of the audience. Same goes for Rick. So I don't think it's fair to put it all on the audience. In fact, liking these characters is kind of the point because it makes seeing them cross lines that much worse.

 

[PSqueak]

I think BoJack Horseman is an extremely effective and inspiring protagonist (by way of negative example), so perhaps what's needed for asshole protagonists is to:
- Also be losers, and I don't mean "lovable losers" like Scott Pilgrim, that in the end defeat the villain and get the girl anyway; but life-crushingly depressing losers like BoJack. I cannot imagine anyone watching BoJack Horseman and wanting to be like him in pretty much any conceivable sense. Ideally, being a loser is a consequence of being an asshole.
- Show the asshole realizing they are assholes, and actually struggle to be better. This is also inspirational for obvious reasons, not to mention an excellent source of drama.

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Bold is why i think the best way to consume Scott Pilgrim media is by actually commiting to reading the comic before going to the game or movie, comic Scott is handled much better because he doesn't beat the Villian (Ramona does it for herself) and he actually realizes he's been an asshole.

 

[adj_noun]

Why should I care if I'm "not supposed" to like a character?

 

[Volimar]

Back when Cribs was a thing, seeing all the people who idolized Scarface was confusing to me. Not only was he a criminal asshole who died terribly, but he was miserable pretty much the whole time.

It's a little different when the asshole character is never punished for being who they are. Why try to be a good person when you can be an asshole and get the great job or the attractive spouse?

 

[ClickyCal']

The extreme case of this is ed norton in american history x, where he became an actual icon to neo nazis.

 

[Doomsayer]

It's not the fault of the author that some of their viewing/reading audience can't pick up nuance or that these people are not to be idolized. I think it's really unfair to even pose this question--if everyone is going to be a fantastic character with no faults the allure of most mediums will slowly fade. People tune into these shows because of conflict and because sometimes you root for the asshole to fail. Sometimes, you even root for the asshole to succeed because he is so charming.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

I still think Tyler Durden is the one that gets me most. Him an Alex De Large.

It's like people don't understand the media they consume and get the wrong ideas because they can't digest it. Absolutely nothing in Fight Club ever gave me the idea Tyler was someone I should aspire to be and, yet, people think the point is that's what we should be and that's how we should behave.

I think the issue is that too many people see "protagonist" as hero.

Here's an AMC publicity shot of Walter White from Breaking Bad. Yeah, men viewers aren't supposed to think he's cool or badass or someone to root for at all:

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To be fair, I'm fairly certain all the publicity shots for Breaking Bad characters were like that though.

 

[Zippedpinhead]

Oh man, is that the sweet episode where Walter finally owns becoming the total badass we all wish we could be?

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Don't you mean where walter realizes and emotes to his wife (and thus the audience) that he realizes that he is a bad guy, not some misplaced, trying to do well by his family teacher, but a truly evil man bent on owning the drug trade in his part of New Mexico?

your post was probably sarcasm though.

 

[Grenchel]

I have to say, they definitely gave a Walter White a heroic ending at the series end. True, he sacrificed a lot, destroyed his family, etc. But he wiped out his enemies nearly completely in a very action movie esque way.

 

[Christian]

I'll always be amazed that writers for the last couple seasons of Dexter totally missed the point of the character, too. People are just dumb. That doesn't mean you stop creating different types of characters.

 

[collige]

Some of these are absolutely written to be liked. You're supposed to get a kick out of seeing Walter go from a literally impotent put upon loser to a cold confident druglord. Hell, the finale allowed Walter to go out exactly as he wanted so the writers probably liked him just as much as some members of the audience. Same goes for Rick. So I don't think it's fair to put it all on the audience. In fact, liking these characters is kind of the point because it makes seeing them cross lines that much worse.

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I don't think this is a very good reading of the BB finale. Walter ended up dead in a gunfight with his family hating him and his fortune wrapped in an idiotic scheme to pass it on to his children.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Do they, or do they idolize the money/success and the adoration that comes with it, bad person traits be damned, they want that money?

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I mean, that's absolutely why people like Scarface even though Tony Montana dies pathetically like an idiot.

Maybe for the first episode, but he very very quickly goes off the rails after he turns down free treatment out of pride then borderline sexually assault his wife while on an adrenaline-fueled power trip. Breaking Bad is kind of a special case for this phenomenon since the entire point of the show was to initially frame Walter as a relatively good guy even though his actions revealed him to be full of shit right from the start.

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That's pretty much what I mean. You're supposed to identify with him at the beginning and then watch in horror as he blows up everything in his life.

 

[tommyv2]

People always forget Vic Mackey from the Shield in these kinds of lists. That was the first real memorable asshole protagonist for me and that show was amazing.

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We should be besties. This is the best opinion I've read around here.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

BoJack Horseman is like the only piece of media that goes out of the way to point out that they're not cool or good.

Though BoJack is really trying to become a good person :(

Well, Harry Potter was pretttttty blatant about Snape being bad.

Like, the bullying orphans thing was a bit on the nose.

But Snape still ended up being loved.

So BoJack Horseman had to directly spell out what they were trying to say because they were worried about BoJack's abusiveness being taken as inspiration.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Yes, only lowest denominator stories from now on please

 

[Weltall Zero]

Bold is why i think the best way to consume Scott Pilgrim media is by actually commiting to reading the comic before going to the game or movie, comic Scott is handled much better because he doesn't beat the Villian (Ramona does it for herself) and he actually realizes he's been an asshole.

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I actually read the comic before watching the movie, but it was pretty close together so a lot of things are nebulous. I didn't remember he doesn't beat Gideon in the comic, but I also didn't remember he doesn't admit to being an asshole in the movie.

In any case, comic Scott isn't really that much different from movie Scott in terms of "loserness" or even moral compass, especially if you compare it to someone like BoJack. It is conceivable for someone to want to be like either version of Scott; not so with BoJack (or at least I want to think nobody could be that crazy).