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Suicide King

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
I believe it would be smarter to just use an SSD and a better screen, as well as a more efficient but downclocked SoC. Games run slightly better, but load times are diminished and heat/battery is less of a problem. I don't like the idea of a Switch Pro allowing developers to make exclusive titles for it.
 
Aug 26, 2018
1,793
I definitely think atleast a native 1080p capable machine ( In the 1.5- 2.5TF) with a faster drive & MUCH better screen is worth it. Atleast in Fall 2021.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,888
really, I thought it required hardware DXR support
The API doesn't specify how a support for some feature is provided by the driver / h/w. 16 series (and 10 series but it lacks other features which are required for FL12_2) support DXR via general compute on CUDA cores. So technically it's compliant. Performance though...
 

NineTailSage

Member
Jan 26, 2020
1,449
Hidden Leaf
Whoever found this information it is pretty intriguing to consider an ssd like this for a future Switch.

Not Found | KIOXIA


Yes full bore it wouldn't be feasible to dedicate 3+ watts just to the ssd, but Nintendo wouldn't need 2GB/s read speeds and could get away with 1GB or slightly less than that would be highly impressive and a wattage they could spare in portable mode. Question isn't if Nintendo can use ssd because there's clearly a possible option for them, but can they also come up with the next generation game cards that read fast enough to produce a similar effect.

What's the perfect balance to strike with mobile hardware that will allow gamers to just game directly from the storage medium without waiting forever or installing everything? Clearly the lower cpu cores has a major factor in this as well, since they introduced those boost modes to reduce load times in certain games.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
eMMC is a type of solid state storage. Unless there's some new definition of SSD I'm not aware of it's a type of SSD.

There's a clear difference between solid-state storage (referring to the use of electric charge + circuitry to hold information) and a solid-state drive (accomplishes that with flash, DRAM, 3D Xpoint, etc. In other words, it uses a lot more interfaces than eMMC. You'd have to consider whether it's travelling through PCIe, or M.2, or even m/SATA). You cannot conflate the two as if it's the same thing. eMMC is solid-state storage, but it is not a solid-state drive. This is why I brought up the fact that eMMC functions close to a microSD because it uses similar builds to what SD and microSD cards use. No one in their right mind would say that an SD/microSD card is a solid-state drive.
 

Onix555

Member
Apr 23, 2019
3,381
UK
Whoever found this information it is pretty intriguing to consider an ssd like this for a future Switch.

Not Found | KIOXIA


Yes full bore it wouldn't be feasible to dedicate 3+ watts just to the ssd, but Nintendo wouldn't need 2GB/s read speeds and could get away with 1GB or slightly less than that would be highly impressive and a wattage they could spare in portable mode. Question isn't if Nintendo can use ssd because there's clearly a possible option for them, but can they also come up with the next generation game cards that read fast enough to produce a similar effect.

What's the perfect balance to strike with mobile hardware that will allow gamers to just game directly from the storage medium without waiting forever or installing everything? Clearly the lower cpu cores has a major factor in this as well, since they introduced those boost modes to reduce load times in certain games.
Problem with that is it's only 0.3GB/s faster then UFS3.1, but uses more power and likely costs significantly more.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
There's a clear difference between solid-state storage (referring to the use of electric charge + circuitry to hold information) and a solid-state drive (accomplishes that with flash, DRAM, 3D Xpoint, etc. In other words, it uses a lot more interfaces than eMMC. You'd have to consider whether it's travelling through PCIe, or M.2, or even m/SATA). You cannot conflate the two as if it's the same thing. eMMC is solid-state storage, but it is not a solid-state drive. This is why I brought up the fact that eMMC functions close to a microSD because it uses similar builds to what SD and microSD cards use. No one in their right mind would say that an SD/microSD card is a solid-state drive.

Interesting, I honestly didn't think SSD had such a specific definition. From what I can tell the primary difference is that a SSD will generally have a bunch of higher quality NAND chips and a controller that makes the most efficient use of those chips, while eMMC is basically a single slower chip with a simpler controller.

I was under the impression that any solid state storage solution that was built into a device to act as a permanent storage drive (which is how SD cards are excluded) was a solid state drive, I really didn't think it had a more narrow definition. Maybe that's a relatively new thing?
 

Dakhil

Member
Mar 26, 2019
4,459
Orange County, CA
If there's a possibility that Nintendo's considering using an magnesium alloy body for future iterations of the Nintendo Switch ("Nintendo Switch Pro", "Nintendo Switch 2", etc.), could there potentially be issues with being hot to the touch whilst playing graphically demanding games and with Wi-Fi reception being terrible due to the bad placement of Wi-Fi antennas? (Unless the magnesium alloy body is solely referring to the motherboard shielding.)
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,237
Spain
But what is the actual tech behind that? And somehow I highly doubt we get a performance of a pro in such a tablet.
You can't have it be as powerful as a PS4 Pro but you can definitely make a handheld that can run a game that the PS4 pro originally ran at 1800p or whatever, at 720p undocked and 1080p/900p docked with otherwise identical graphics.

Reminder that the only people who want the next Switch to have a higher res than 720p are people who have no idea what they're talking about and just think "big number good"
 

NineTailSage

Member
Jan 26, 2020
1,449
Hidden Leaf
You can't have it be as powerful as a PS4 Pro but you can definitely make a handheld that can run a game that the PS4 pro originally ran at 1800p or whatever, at 720p undocked and 1080p/900p docked with otherwise identical graphics.

Reminder that the only people who want the next Switch to have a higher res than 720p are people who have no idea what they're talking about and just think "big number good"

I don't think for anyone having a guesstimate of a theoretical Switch Pro aiming for PS4 Pro levels of performance are claiming an exact number comparison. More on the lines of what level Nvidia gpu would it take to out perform a PS4 Pro spec machine, which is why the somewhere around 2.5Tflop number was thrown out there!
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
Switch 2 might have a huge disadvantage on SD cards read speed compared to next and current gen
 

NineTailSage

Member
Jan 26, 2020
1,449
Hidden Leaf
Switch 2 might have a huge disadvantage on SD cards read speed compared to next and current gen

As someone above has stated if Nintendo could adopt something like eUFS 3.1, it would kind of put them into a similar position as both Sony and Microsoft. Having a super fast internal storage for playing games directly off of, but using sd cards for extra storage, game archives and data save backup.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
there is an upcoming SD Card update that will allow for read speeds up to 985MB/s and allow for backwards compatibility

sandisk-128gb-microsd-express.jpg


www.theverge.com

Memory cards are about to get much faster with new microSD Express spec

The new format announced at MWC 2019 promises speeds up to 985 MB/s
 
OP
OP
ItWasMeantToBe19
Oct 26, 2017
20,440

NineTailSage

Member
Jan 26, 2020
1,449
Hidden Leaf
If there's a possibility that Nintendo's considering using an magnesium alloy body for future iterations of the Nintendo Switch ("Nintendo Switch Pro", "Nintendo Switch 2", etc.), could there potentially be issues with being hot to the touch whilst playing graphically demanding games and with Wi-Fi reception being terrible due to the bad placement of Wi-Fi antennas? (Unless the magnesium alloy body is solely referring to the motherboard shielding.)

My guess is it would be used similar to the Microsoft Surface as an exoskeleton, which that has wifi antennae and works fine... The Switch Pro using a casing like this would probably get warm but not hot to the touch, as the system would still be aiming for under 10 watts in portable mode.

Magnesium alloy would also be beneficial in dissipating heat quicker, sturdier rails for joycons, thinner design, possible higher clocks in dock and taking care of the Switch's potential to warp.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
How expensive are 128 GB versions of these going to be in 2021/2022?

Because Switch 2 games will be 32 GBs at least probably.
who knows. but at some point decisions will have to be made regarding how storage will be handled. if you sit an wait for an inexpensive alternative to pop up, then playing games off SD will be nonviable until a hardware revision comes up. or they could just bite the bullet and support the new and expensive, but backwards compatible, evolution of the current format and weather the storm. either way, a large amount of built-in storage is gonna be need to help.

or they could just make the Switch 2 thick enough to slap in an 2230 m.2 drive like the Surface products have

SSD.png
 

Deleted member 11276

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,223
The API doesn't specify how a support for some feature is provided by the driver / h/w. 16 series (and 10 series but it lacks other features which are required for FL12_2) support DXR via general compute on CUDA cores. So technically it's compliant. Performance though...
Your logic is correct, however Nvidia states on their website that only RTX GPUs support DX12 Ultimate and will get that "seal of quality" so to speak. So I guess HW-RT is a requirement after all.
 

Onix555

Member
Apr 23, 2019
3,381
UK
You can't have it be as powerful as a PS4 Pro but you can definitely make a handheld that can run a game that the PS4 pro originally ran at 1800p or whatever, at 720p undocked and 1080p/900p docked with otherwise identical graphics.

Reminder that the only people who want the next Switch to have a higher res than 720p are people who have no idea what they're talking about and just think "big number good"
Thats quite an aggressive statement.
1080p screens have come way down in price since 2017 and they also use far less power if theyre standard 60hz. So while I dont think a Switch Pro is ever coming, I do think Switch in like 2023 will have a 1080p display.

Also I dont think there are any PS4P enhanced graphics games, just upressed base games. In that sense you could probably have a GPU inbetween the base and Pro (though far more modern and advanced) and run them at 1440p docked.
 

Dakhil

Member
Mar 26, 2019
4,459
Orange County, CA
As someone above has stated if Nintendo could adopt something like eUFS 3.1, it would kind of put them into a similar position as both Sony and Microsoft. Having a super fast internal storage for playing games directly off of, but using sd cards for extra storage, game archives and data save backup.

The problem is UFS cards are still fairly expensive. Whilst UFS cards are currently faster than current microSD cards, UFS cards are also slower than microSD Express cards. And I don't believe any mobile device supports using UFS cards. (Keep in mind I'm not talking about UFS in terms of internal storage since many smartphones use UFS for internal storage.)

And of course, whilst microSD cards are fairly inexpensive and many mobile devices supports using microSD cards, the speeds are slower in comparison to UFS cards. And whilst microSD Express cards are faster than UFS cards and microSD cards, the speeds are slower in comparison to UFS 3.1.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
at this point why not go with HDR if they're gonna go 1080p? though they might be limited as most HDR panels are now OLED
 

Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,843
If next gen consoles are both priced at 499 then a switch 2 at 399 would still be 100 bucks cheaper. Plus they might need the higher price to justify putting more power inside the console to keep getting console ports.

But do we really think Nintendo is not gonna do a Switch Pro soon-ish? Nintendo has released "Pro" versions of their portables since the DS, and "Pro" consoles became commonplace this gen.
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
As someone above has stated if Nintendo could adopt something like eUFS 3.1, it would kind of put them into a similar position as both Sony and Microsoft. Having a super fast internal storage for playing games directly off of, but using sd cards for extra storage, game archives and data save backup.
That would be a solution but pretty expensive seeing as they only have 32GB Switches now 🤔
 

Ayirek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,255
The switch will be 4 years old in 2021. Nintendo typically has shorter console lifecycles than Sony and Microsoft. I do not expect to see a switch pro at this point, but a new iteration in 2022.
I imagine it'd be around PS4 Pro in terms of performance.
 

Deleted member 11276

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,223
Those new SD speeds sound very cool, I mean 2.4 GB/s on the XSX versus 900 MB/s is quite a difference, but it will still make third party ports possible on the machine while keeping it on the cool and tiny side.

I think the ideal Switch 2 specs would be similar to this:

Tegra custom SOC
5nm ARM 8 Core CPU using A7x whatever releases this year and dual A55 cores for the OS.
7nm refresh of Ampere with all of its features, 1,2 TFLOPs portable, 2,7 TFLOPs docked with DLSS support. Thanks to DLSS the Switch can run Lockhart 1080p ports at 900p and then reconstruct it to 4K in docked mode using the more powerful tensor cores. In portable mode, if they chose to built in a 1080p screen, they can run the games at a bit higher than 1024x576 and then reconstruct it to 1080p. This should allow for awesome next gen visuals in a handheld.
4 GB LPDDR5, 6 GB GDDR6
Storage would be using the these new SD cards, should be fast enough.

This would release in 2021, one year after the required tech released, so Nintendo has some time to implement it in the console.
 
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UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
The switch will be 4 years old in 2021. Nintendo typically has shorter console lifecycles than Sony and Microsoft. I do not expect to see a switch pro at this point, but a new iteration in 2022.
I imagine it'd be around PS4 Pro in terms of performance.


Yeah they're better off just moving to Switch 2 for 2022 and continuing support for Switch 1 as a cheaper platform for kids from that point on for a couple of years. Switch 1 can continue to get some new games (which will run fine on Switch 2, probably at higher resolution) through 2023 or 2024 even.

$349.99 Switch 2

$229.99 regular Switch

$149.99 Switch Mini

We're already well into 2020, honestly 2022 is not that far off and there's still plenty of content that Switch has.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
My guesses for Switch 2 (not Pro) now that we have a better idea of what PS5/XBSX are

- 7nm Ampere based processor

- 1.6 TF undocked, 3.2 TF docked

- New "Overdrive" mode, system can run at full 3.2 TF even portably with cheap modular battery pack + stand accessorie ($24.99)

- 8GB LPDDR5x RAM + 4GB LPDDR4 RAM.

- 128GB internal flash

- 7.2 inch 1920x1080 IGZO display

- No DLSS, but will have Image Sharpening Filter tech that doesn't require a hardware hit. Can make a 720p image look comparable to 1080p or 1440p.

- August 2022 release, Mario Kart 9 launch title. $349.99.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Interesting, I honestly didn't think SSD had such a specific definition. From what I can tell the primary difference is that a SSD will generally have a bunch of higher quality NAND chips and a controller that makes the most efficient use of those chips, while eMMC is basically a single slower chip with a simpler controller.

I was under the impression that any solid state storage solution that was built into a device to act as a permanent storage drive (which is how SD cards are excluded) was a solid state drive, I really didn't think it had a more narrow definition. Maybe that's a relatively new thing?

It's always been like that. There's the overarching definition, which is solid-state storage, and then there are the devices that use that solid-state storage in multiple different ways. The common ones are: SSDs, micro/SD cards (which is more of a successor to MMCs), USB flash drives. Each of them have different ways of achieving the storage process, whether it's through interfaces or otherwise.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,888
Your logic is correct, however Nvidia states on their website that only RTX GPUs support DX12 Ultimate and will get that "seal of quality" so to speak. So I guess HW-RT is a requirement after all.
RT is an important part of DX12U so it would be weird for them to include 16 series into their statements when it's nowhere near powerful enough to pull off RT even in the fastest titles on the market.
But regardless of what they are or will be "stating", 16 series support FL12_2 feature set right now, so these cards will support "DX12U" once it will become available.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
I don't really see anything odd with my setup. LPDDR4 will be dirt cheap, they could use it to help loading times, OS features, etc. as a secondary RAM pool.
there's only so much space you can fit ram chips on a mobile-oriented mainboard. two kinds of ram means they can't even stack them. two of the same chips would be better than one chip for bandwidth and probably cheaper as they can use multiple less dense chips. at this small size, there's not much reason to go split like a traditional console or PC
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
of all the companies to spend time and money on RT for mobile hardware, Nvidia is one of the two who'd do just that (the other being Imagination). and not only that, they'd need the Switch 2 to fit into the development pipeline that's taken up by the Series X and PS5. that means it needs to be DX12U compliant. I don't see Nvidia doing 16 series Turing again. it's all RT or bust from here on out
There's still a huge market for budget GPU video cards. Not everyone wants to spend a grand or two on a laptop. They are here to stay, Turing or ampere, for another decade/generation. It just seems redundant to me to use ray tracing on anything below 6 TFLOPs/Nvidia 2060. It takes up a ton of processing power, dedicated cores or not . Hell, Nvidia 2060 isn't even a good graphics card for it. And knowing nintendo's history with affordability over power and tech, they will go with the former and something like ray tracing could be a generation after switch 2, or some kind of pro home model.
 

SiG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,485
XFMEXPRESS would be a better form factor than 2230.

Fully agreed that microsd needs to be retired for something faster. UFS seems like an interim step right now. Would rather have an NVMe solution. Question is if NVIDIA and Nintendo would build in the PCIe lanes to support it.
It's impractical to adopt UFS as an external storage media given its price and how it isn't ubiquitous like SD. Adopting a proprietary storage solution for external drives will be like Sony's Memory Sticks all over again.

SD Express might be a better option as it is cheaper and more readily available.
 
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NineTailSage

Member
Jan 26, 2020
1,449
Hidden Leaf
It's impractical to adopt UFS as an external storage media given its price and how it isn't ubiquitous like SD. Adopting a proprietary storage solution for external drives will be like Sony's Memory Sticks all over again.

SD Express might be a better option as it is cheaper and more readily available.

I see a lot of people stating this but how expensive is expensive, because Nintendo will need some variation of UFS or NME to have closer parity going forward to Sony and Microsoft.
 

SiG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,485
I see a lot of people stating this but how expensive is expensive, because Nintendo will need some variation of UFS or NME to have closer parity going forward to Sony and Microsoft.
It's still quite expensive for the mass consumer (256GB is $100!). Alternatively, SD Express could be deemed a better option.

As for requiring fast storage to establish parity, they can likewise utilize caching or some sort of a fast memory pool for offloading too. If, for example, they have an internal UFS drive, they can reserve some amount of space on it so to copy the game data off the SD Card and store it internally for each game booted.
 

bmfrosty

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,894
SF Bay Area
It's impractical to adopt UFS as an external storage media given its price and how it isn't ubiquitous like SD. Adopting a proprietary storage solution for external drives will be like Sony's Memory Sticks all over again.

SD Express might be a better option as it is cheaper and more readily available.
I wasn't aware of it. It looks like it's single lane NVMe. I can't find any for sale. UFS is on the market though.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
I wasn't aware of it. It looks like it's single lane NVMe. I can't find any for sale. UFS is on the market though.
SD Express is relatively recent, with the announcement for microSD express happening just last year. one problem adoption will have is phones phasing out memory cards, and not necessitating super fast cards. Switch just might be the most popular device using them
 

SiG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,485
SD Express is relatively recent, with the announcement for microSD express happening just last year. one problem adoption will have is phones phasing out memory cards, and not necessitating super fast cards. Switch just might be the most popular device using them
Does a new "Switch 2" need to utilize the micro format though? Wouldn't it be beneficial for them to adopt a "slightly larger" form factor (as in system wise, with the screen being larger than a regular Switch), which mould make regular SD support practical?
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Does a new "Switch 2" need to utilize the micro format though? Wouldn't it be beneficial for them to adopt a "slightly larger" form factor (as in system wise, with the screen being larger than a regular Switch), which mould make regular SD support practical?
I brought it up to highlight the recency. the standard card was announced the year before that. will probably take awhile to get supported but for stuff like IoT could use it.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
So this thread is still alive. I think the Virus is going to change more of this discussion, I think we are close to having next gen consoles delayed into 2021. Looking at one of the largest recessions in history as well. We shouldn't be talking about a pro switch anymore, even if it does come out next year, it won't be a focus for Nintendo and just a hardware refresh like the lite.
 

SiG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,485
So this thread is still alive. I think the Virus is going to change more of this discussion, I think we are close to having next gen consoles delayed into 2021. Looking at one of the largest recessions in history as well. We shouldn't be talking about a pro switch anymore, even if it does come out next year, it won't be a focus for Nintendo and just a hardware refresh like the lite.
I have the feeling they've changed from a hardware refresh to a full on successor even prior to this pandemic. Something tells me they were ready to announce their "pro" model but their momentum with Switch rev. 2 was doing quite well and that they didn't have any clear new direction/"gimmick" with said "pro" model so they instead started focusing on a next-gen successor.

The question is what will this new Switch successor's "hook" be this time? They just can't simply rely on the promise of better specs alone.
 
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