By definition they all do, but i think criticizing a game for being kill a group -> story -> kill a group -> story is totally valid
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Best storytellers in the industry?
- Thread starter Master Chuuster
- Start date
By definition they all do, but i think criticizing a game for being kill a group -> story -> kill a group -> story is totally valid
For me, it would have to be Bioware, nothing beats SWTOR/KOTOR storytelling in my eyes (well maybe Obsidian with KOTOR II just slightly). The original Mass Effect was also a great story imo, and I'm hoping that the story in Anthem will be great too.
I've always been a big fan of Brian Mitsoda (Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines) -- specifically his characters and dialogue.
1st - Wander is both brave and caring. He's willing to fight "deities" to save a certain girl.
2nd - Dormin is a god, but "is it a god of malice like Loki?" is left to be determined. The Pursuers came to get the girl back from Wander, who is trying to save her. Also, they looked like knights coming to save the "princess". Maybe they are not aware that she might have been cursed or they just didn't want to tamper with their gods' powers to bring the "princess" back, because they knew what the cost would be. They even destroy the bridge after. Maybe they were forbidden lands? Are these parts of the world cursed by an ancient evil? (Similar things can be in The Last Guardian)
3nd - Wander grows horns because he chose to trade his life and soul with Dormin to save the girl in white. The demon form is his soul being taken over by the Colossi he killed and the baby could symbolize his life starting anew (as in with life comes death and vice-versa).
4th - It is important, because in the worlds that Fumito Ueda creates, there's always these themes of light and darkness. The hero having to overcome this darkness to save a person or creature, despite their age or strength. These characters will even go to great lengths to free or save those other people/creature, no matter how difficult or challenging the task can be. I believe there must also be an artistic reason to why the control schemes in his games are unintuitive. My guess is that Fumito Ueda may want to convey the difficulty of these quests and physical challenges through all his main characters (and the controls). They are usually kids or young teens, who are not the usual experienced adventurer. They look like normal kids. Kids who have to deal with greater-than-nature locals and foes. I believe Fumito Ueda use a more artistic approach when it comes to his games.
5th - One of the most powerful scenes in the game is the first time you kill a colossi for Dormin. You get infected with the monster's darkness or spirit through a painful transfer. Even the hero collapses every time he kills one.
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Wander's personality is pretty obvious if you ask me and the game does more than enough to convey to the player what type of character he is. Its not really subjective at all no matter how much you keep making that claim. There is nothing to make up.
Its also pretty rich that its somehow a cop out for a story to be up to interpretation.
In the case of Fumito Ueda, it is more of an artistic approach when it comes to the storytelling of his games. The writing in them is closer to Minimalism, because he provides with enough elements for you to come up with your own interpretation of the story (of what happened and what's happening). You'll see similar approaches with the more "modern" paintings. Artists can express emotions, concepts, ideas through visual cues, design and composition. There's no wrong meaning or story. Everyone have different interpretations of colors and visual language. What can be seen as a rude behaviour for one person, can be considered normal for another. It is always a matter of perspective.
They make the big new movies/games that everyone talks about when they come out. They take their time and they are sort of reclusive as developers/filmmakers, their movies are massive productions and works of passion but the dialogue is really questionable and yet it's still above the industry standard.
I appreciate the effort you went into to answer my questions but I would still say a lot of what you wrote is subjective.
How do you know Wander is caring? Maybe he feels compelled to a sense of duty? Could that not be equally as valid?
I also read that the pursuer was trying to stop Wander from using the forbidden spell. (The ramifications of this are never explained). I noticed you did not mention this.
Your horn theory is also speculation. In ICO there is a child who has horns and I don't think he was a demon. It seems to me this is another vague attempt at tying SOTC to ICO without any explanation or reason given.
When you say unintuitive controls are a metaphor for the challenges he has to face I once again see the squinting I was referring to earlier. It seems to me you are justifying something to how you want it to be seen.
I didn't find killing the first Colossus an emotional scene. I thought the music preceding it was brilliant though.
Not every story needs to be completely filled out. Not every character needs a rich history. Every aspect doesn't need to be explained. If you play SotC and pay attention, it is easy to see what is happening. It isn't about being "correct". the major plat points and themes are very understandable.
What can you tell me about someone who carries a dead girl on a long journey to a forbidden land with a stolen relic sword to talk to a demon he was told to never talk to in hopes that it can bring that dead person to life? In the first 10 minutes with hardly any speaking the game tells you a great deal about him. It tells you plenty about Dormin in that opening conversation as well, you just don't come to realize it until later. The pursuer is obviously trying to stop the wanderer from interacting with Dormin. Why you would want to know more than that or more about him, I don't know. He has a pretty easily identifiable purpose in the story. If you don't understand why the wanderer starts growing horns...... then I really don't know what to tell you besides play the game again and pay attention. The baby thing is probably the only thing that isn't simple to understand. I haven't played the game in over 10 years but i remember the pursuer saying something about hoping the wanderer can atone for his sin and the baby is what is left of him after the ordeal. The horns a mark of his sin. And yes I can. Agro falling off the cliff after bucking his master off to safety was incredibly powerful.
The baby is implied to be him because the player has a semblence of control over it during the credits
Also, while you can absolutely discern a lot of character from wander in-game, the game importantly leaves out what happened before. You dont know if wander is searching for a way to help her out of guilt, love, need, etc. You dont know if he's the one who made her like this.
Also, while you can absolutely discern a lot of character from wander in-game, the game importantly leaves out what happened before. You dont know if wander is searching for a way to help her out of guilt, love, need, etc. You dont know if he's the one who made her like this.
I'm glad you were able to say that the story elements of the game are subjective because some people are in denial about that. In my eyes the lack of detail and character depth is a flaw in the writing for mine because I haven't been squinting.
There are tons of subjective moments and elements of Ueda's games. I would never say otherwise but you're asking some questions that have fairly obvious and straight forward answers only to keep saying that isn't the case or asking questions like,"name a powerful scene in the story" which is a question that is going to get a subjective answer by its very nature and acting as if that somehow proves your other points. Hell I am fine with you disliking how he tells his stories and can agree to disagree on that fact but I feel you come off as a bit disingenuous with how you're trying to argue your point. A lot of people absolutely love his story telling and we're not making anything up to compensate for him, I'll be the first to state his games have notable issues from technical problems to actual story telling issues like TLG having a rather blunt and superfluous narrator.
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Yeah mocking Nintendo in threads like this is pretty dumb, not focusing on story =/= they can't write shit.
When they do try to make good stuff, like in Majora's Mask, the results can be great. Although to be fair, both Eternal Darkness and all Earthbound games were developed and written by mostly external people.
Without a doubt, Team Yakuza. Not only do they create great rollercoaster rides, but they make you care about every character, even the bad ones.
Yakuza 0 really reminded me how damn good they are at what they do as they can bounce from life and death serious scenes to totally bonkers off the wall zany antics before amping things up for a hype filled battle scene that just keeps escalating and going. Yet they rarely ever miss a beat with it. Even the random side mission stories often turn out great even if the gameplay along is just the same old stuff.
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He worked narrative design on New Vegas and its DLCs (project director of Dead Money, Old World Blues, and Lonesome Road). He wrote Durance and Grieving Mother in Pillars of Eternity.
I can't make a definite conclusion about a man carrying dead girl on a horse to a forbidden land because the game never tells you. It poses the question but never suggests an answer. It could be love, guilt, duty. It's up to the player. It's also a copout.
Why is the Pursuer trying to stop Wander from using the forbidden spell? What are the ramifications. Is it ever explained?
I don't have a definitive answer as to why Wander grows horns and neither do you. It's a vague reference to ICO. That's all that can be said. Again it's subjective.
Also Agro falling off the cliff is one example where Ueda should have not bothered explaining something like everything else but did on this one occasion and messed it up. I'll grant you that Agro falling off the cliff can be seen as an emotional moment but then it is cheapened by finding out he survived anyway. Yet we are supposed to believe Ueda is one of the great storytellers?
Still Nintendo IP, published under Nintendo.
I also personally think that Pokemon Red, Thousand Year Door, A Link Between Worlds and Xenoblade 1 deserve credit too. Hell, even Metroid, Xenoblade and Kid Icarus have their moments.
That's the thing. You're saying the answers are obvious yet we can see there are different answers for the questions I posed.
I'm not trying to be disingenuous but when a game has such a lack of depth and detail in its writing I really do struggle to find any well written scenes. The topic is about great storytellers and I see Ueda being praised as a great story teller when he seems to be introducing ideas only to throw his hands in the air and say you figure it out. I find it utterly baffling.
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That sense of duty is usually and often conveyed through a more experienced or veteran adventurer (like Nathan Drake, Lara Croft, Link) or warrior (like Geralt, any of the main assassins in Assassins' Creed, Batman). And no, you don't use a "normal-looking" teen to convey that sense of duty in a story of "epic" scale.
I was when I said "tampering with their gods' powers". As the spell in the context of the game's story, summons Dormin. The deity that Wander deals with to save the girl in white.
I am not sure I would qualify this as speculation. As these things are kinda subtly explained when you summon Dormin at the beginning of the game. Also, like I said, Ueda used a more artistic approach to the themes and ideas he wanted to illustrate in his games. As for ICO, several times in the game, you are hinted that some kids are selected/picked by their respective villages to become sacrifice material for their deities. These same kids become the dark monsters/spirits slowing your progression on the island/prison. Also, Fumito Ueda already said before that his games are not part of the same game universe. Although, they do share similar themes. That's one of the reasons why some people complained about easter eggs like the neon Butterfly crate in The Shadow of Colossus remake.
Not to be presumptuous, but it's the kind of stuff you learn when you study Fine Art or Media Art in College (in Canada, it's between High School and Uni) and University. From what I've learned at school, I noticed that the way he approaches each of his games is more like a painting or an art piece. He wants something that can become timeless and universal. A game that can be understood by anyone, anywhere, no matter when it is played. The themes and ideas can be seen and lived anywhere by anyone. Hence why he doesn't want to force a specific narrative frame on his games, as such narrative can dramatically change depending of the context in which it is played.
Maybe for you, it didn't leave a mark, but a lot of people it did. The reason why I believe it is one of the most important scene of the game is because it's the first "enemy" you encounter, one who is passive until you decide to attack it.
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Personally I feel you're being incredibly obtuse to prove a point. What -Tetsuo- stated about the opening telling you exactly who Wander is as a person is spot on. You don't need things stated outright for them to not be speculative. Wander is the type of person who will throw his life and everything he know's, travel gigantic distances to a place you're never supposed to go and do things you're never supposed to do and all for a women he wants to bring back. The entire intro is a sequence to not simply set up the story but the person at its forefront and I don't think there is much to speculate about its intentions or what its telling us.
Edit: There are most certainly many speculative portions of SotC's story and characters but I feel you're hung up on the stuff that is rather straight forward all things considered. We can certainly speculate what the ending means or on connections with Ueda's other games and so on.
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IIRC he's publicly disavowed the PoE companions, saying they changed so much in being integrated into the game he didn't consider them 'his'.
You say I'm being obtuse because you're refusing to acknowledge that the narrative is potentially different to how you view the story. Can you prove without a shadow of doubt what Wander's actions are based on? Is it love, guilt, duty? I don't know for sure and neither do you. That's not good story telling. It's just throwing out a bunch of ideas and telling the audience to make up their own conclusion. A cop out.
I would love to continue this talk as I do find it interesting but I have to sleep for work. I'll reply to this discussion tomorrow if it's still ongoing.
I'd have to go with Naughty Dog, Rockstar, 2K Games and CD Projekt.
There are other developers, franchises and games that have incredible stories and characters, eg Mass Effect, Horizon Zero Dawn, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid, Half-Life, Deus Ex, Shenmue, Max Payne, Fallout, Star Wars and so on, but in terms of the devs who are the most consistent with narrative and characterisation, and who's characters and writing require the least amount of suspension of disbelief, its got to be games/franchises like Uncharted, The Last of Us, Bioshock, Grand Theft Auto, Red Dead and The Witcher that take the cake.
I'd have put Guerilla Games up there as I consider Horizon some of the best story telling in games, but the Killzone games were fairly poor in these areas so I can't give it to them just yet.
In terms of the absolute best of the best, I'd have to go with Naughty Dog. No other developer for me has writing and characters that are as well written, nuanced, believable or realistic, with narratives, dialogue or moments that are as emotionally resonant, effective or poignant.
There are other developers, franchises and games that have incredible stories and characters, eg Mass Effect, Horizon Zero Dawn, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid, Half-Life, Deus Ex, Shenmue, Max Payne, Fallout, Star Wars and so on, but in terms of the devs who are the most consistent with narrative and characterisation, and who's characters and writing require the least amount of suspension of disbelief, its got to be games/franchises like Uncharted, The Last of Us, Bioshock, Grand Theft Auto, Red Dead and The Witcher that take the cake.
I'd have put Guerilla Games up there as I consider Horizon some of the best story telling in games, but the Killzone games were fairly poor in these areas so I can't give it to them just yet.
In terms of the absolute best of the best, I'd have to go with Naughty Dog. No other developer for me has writing and characters that are as well written, nuanced, believable or realistic, with narratives, dialogue or moments that are as emotionally resonant, effective or poignant.
Like I said before, it is neither bad or good storytelling. It's minimalist storytelling. You can't convey a specific meaning to a "modern" painting as you would to one of Fumito Ueda's games (Ico, SotC, The Last Guardian).
To help me illustrate what I am trying to say
To me there are multiple similarities between the picture seen above and AAA gaming in general. Back in the days, patrons like publishers today would commission an artist (like nowadays game dev. studio) to create a product to their liking. They usually offer beautiful renditions of lands far far away in time and space. We get lost in these small and meticulous details of the grand picture. We are often in awe before the textures and density of those renditions. As we travel in the picture with our eyes and analyze the elements we notice, we can't help but to feel the need of going there and explore it ourselves. Furthermore, most of the time all the information is usually and often on the painting or on the side, giving details on how, where, when and why it was made and what's happening in the image. Which in the end leaves very little to interpretation.
As for Fumito Ueda's games, the themes and stories are usually simple, to the extend of being minimalist. The visual techniques used often shift between surrealism and impressionism with its grand-scale "closed and limited" world versus the unnatural events that take place in it. Worlds visually verging between high fantasy, bizarre or even dreamy, Team ICO's games convey their core ideas of light vs darkness, courage vs fear, childhood vs adulthood (just to name a few) through visual cues, design, layers and lighting. Portraying feelings through their different compositions in masterful ways. The way this team approached these design elements show that they will often prioritize the artistic aspect of their games to reinforce their themes and stories, whether it's through pacing, level design, control layout, game mechanics, etc.
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For me It's Druckmann, he writes the best characters with the most natural dialogues in the industry.
Honorable mentions go to: Dan Houser, Fumito Ueda, Myazaki, Kojima, CD Project Red and possibly Cory Barlog (haven't played GoW yet, but reviewers are praising the narrative). They are all fantastic for different reasons.
Honorable mentions go to: Dan Houser, Fumito Ueda, Myazaki, Kojima, CD Project Red and possibly Cory Barlog (haven't played GoW yet, but reviewers are praising the narrative). They are all fantastic for different reasons.
Chris Avellone
Yoshitaka Murayama
Ken Levine
Tim Schafer
Erik Wolpaw
Yoko Taro
Fumito Ueda
Hidetaka Miyazaki
Game starts with Dante fucking two strippers and ends with him grabbing Kat's butt.
Yoshitaka Murayama
Ken Levine
Tim Schafer
Erik Wolpaw
Yoko Taro
Fumito Ueda
Hidetaka Miyazaki
Game starts with Dante fucking two strippers and ends with him grabbing Kat's butt.
I mean, insofar as they were trying to be the greatest narrative in 3D, yes, I would say that the narrative is failure if it didn't take advantage of the 3D itself. This isn't saying games should use every single gaming mechanic available to tell their stories, but that they should attempt to weave a level of interactivity within them.
It's not unreasonable to expect a game narrative to take advantage of the fact it is a game, as opposed to a movie, just as we expect a film to take advantage of the fact it is a film, as opposed to just projecting the text of a book on the screen and slowly scrolling down. That's not to say Star Wars shouldn't have an opening text crawl- but that the whole movie shouldn't be a text crawl. Similarly, it's not to say games should completely abandon movie-like cut scenes to tell their stories, but that they could offer more than that.
All too often, I feel that a game's narrative can start to resemble watching an episode of network TV- you get chunks of story interspersed with game play as arbitrary as the advertisements between scenes. Or there are the adventures game where your level of interaction- pressing 'a' to advance the dialogue- is no more deep than pressing 'a' in netflix to select a film. And in the worst case scenario, the gameplay can result in a real dissonance between the story the player is presented and the interactions performed by the player- an example of this, to me, is Uncharted, wherein the fun pulpy adventure is interspersed with the hero brazenly slaughtering hundreds and hundreds of people, with no ability to offer mercy. The best storytelling in video games, therefore, should be storytelling that uses the game's own interactivity to enhance the storytelling.
I'm picking on Uncharted, but what is the justification for it being a video game and not a movie or tv show? As a gamer, my answer would be that it's more fun to play than watch, hence it's a videogame and not a movie/show. But I can't really think of a reason why it's storytelling demands that it be told as a videogame. That's not to say it shouldn't be a videogame- I think the rule of fun is a perfectly fine justification- but as an example of videogame storytelling, it ultimately falls short. By comparison, the story in What Remains of Edith Finch is memorable precisely because the story is interactive. You could remake it as a movie, and the movie might be excellent on its own merits- some might even prefer the film to the game- but it would never be able to replace the experience of playing the game. To use a real world example, I watched one of those 'all cutscenes full movie' youtube videos for Injustice 2. I liked it a lot, but felt no desire to play through the story on my own. That, to me, can never be the pinnacle of video game storytelling- it could certainly end up being the pinnacle of cinematic storytelling, but that's a different medium.
I think that's kinda the point though- all videogame stories, insofar as they are video games, use some level of interactivity to tell their stories. The best video game stories are the ones that use this interactivity in a meaningful way, as opposed to those that only use their interactivity for moving from scene 1 to scene 2. Apparently there's a parallel fight over Ueda happening on this thread, but Ico is a good example of interactivity used to enhance the story. You advance the game by leading Yorda from point a to point b, but you do this by holding Yorda's hand, which is accomplished by holding down a button on the controller. Instead of just advancing the story forward, the 'hold hand' mechanic enhances the story by allowing the player to identify Ico and Yorda's emotional bond by being an active part of it. Obviously there's more to a video game story than interactivity, just as there's more to a film's story than its cinematography, but it's an essential element for a video game story to achieve it's full potential.
Team Yakuza are head and shoulders above everyone else when it comes to anything outside of indie stuff. There's some really interesting stories in the indie side but I couldn't tell you their names unfortunately, but games like Kentucky Route Zero etc.
He wrote the best character in Original Sin 2 who's pretty integral to main story imo.
MCA, whomever the writers are at CDPR they have done a masterful job over 3 games, Bioware has been uneven at times but they definitely have some high points.
A game that goes largely unnoticed for some valid reasons I suppose is the 2012 Game of Thrones game by Cyanide. One of the best written stories I've played in a game and it fits in well with the GoT lore.
A game that goes largely unnoticed for some valid reasons I suppose is the 2012 Game of Thrones game by Cyanide. One of the best written stories I've played in a game and it fits in well with the GoT lore.
Chris Avellone is more of a consultant these days, but all the projects he's worked on lately have been lauded for their storytelling. I do wish he could direct again, as I imagine he could make a creative game by combining his Black Isle/Obsidian roots with whatever he's learned from the developers he's been working with lately (Larian, Arkane, Subset Games, etc). He just doesn't seem to have any interest in going that route again.
edit - as others have noted, he still does some direct writing like the companions in PoE, Wasteland 2, Divinity OS2, and a lot of the background lore in Prey.
In terms of current developers, CDPR is an obvious choice. I find From Software's unusual storytelling style to be quite fascinating in the Soulsborne games. Obsidian is still at the top, though I am anxious for their return to 3D development.
edit - as others have noted, he still does some direct writing like the companions in PoE, Wasteland 2, Divinity OS2, and a lot of the background lore in Prey.
In terms of current developers, CDPR is an obvious choice. I find From Software's unusual storytelling style to be quite fascinating in the Soulsborne games. Obsidian is still at the top, though I am anxious for their return to 3D development.
Actually, well my memory is foggy right now, but I think I remember reading an interview where he said someday he wants to do that someday with an RPG.
And what did he write in Prey, exactly?
IIRC, he conceptualized the character but did not do a whole lot of direct writing.
I will say that Larian really stepped things up in a big way with OS2 and if their next project is of similar or better writing quality then I would put them on this list.
Some of my favourites over the years:
Dave Cummins
Ron Gilbert
Tim Schafer
Dave Gilbert
Kensuke Tanabe
Shu Takumi
Yuji Horii
Makoto Ikehara
Dave Cummins
Ron Gilbert
Tim Schafer
Dave Gilbert
Kensuke Tanabe
Shu Takumi
Yuji Horii
Makoto Ikehara
He was brought in as a narrative consultant for the presentation of the overall narrative. It was largely written when he got there, he just tightened it up. I think he also put some work into the quest NPCs. Additionally, he wrote some of the background details like emails and notes that really flesh out Talos-1 and make it feel so well-realized (the running gag about the piece of equipment that everyone wants in their office but no one knows what it actually does, the D&D group, etc).
Maybe he's changed his mind on directing, but the last few interviews I read a while back made it seem like he didn't want the stress of directing and preferred to focus on writing.