Deleted member 8106

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,451
It's been a while I wanted to do a thread like this, but I think it's worth doing it.
Those days common users playing beta are basically the new QA guys, except they work totally for free.
We all know games ship in a bugged state those days, some of them are so bugged you can consider them a beta, even if those are 1.0.

I see threads like the PS4 Firmware 6.01 beta and I wonder how much money software houses are just saving with those practices. We know about some of them find ways to avoid paying taxes, the QA those days is pretty much non-existent, leading to situations like the recent Shenmue Collection, the Silent Hill Collection in the past, Assassin's Creed Unity, PUBG. People are often paying to beta-test products or, much worse, they just pay for products which remain broken even after the official release.

Why someone would beta-test a firmware for a new console if there is not a single benefit if not an early access to the update, with the risk of breaking your console (I still remember some official PS3 firmware updates that bricked several console) or compromising your account? It sounds like a suicidal procedure to me with literally no benefit. The only benefit is for the producer/software house which can avoid paying people to make sure the update/software works as intended. The Microsoft Insider program is indicative of this, with huge bugs passing under the radar of common users and ended up to be in an official update retired the day after released because it could nuke some personal data.

And still in this industry there are people willing to pay even more for their games, because 60$ (which are really 60$ in THEIR country, while they are 70 or 75€ in Europe) isn't enough. Games costed much less to produce in the past, of course, but it's also true they used to sell much less and SH weren't used to spend insane amount of money just for marketing, also avoid to paying taxes if they can, charging additional money for microtransactions, dlcs, season passes, even early access to the game or, like the title of this thread suggest, cutting cost where they should spend money instead.

EDIT: Maybe I used the term QA employee improperly, what I mean is people actually paid to test the game. If they are not the same of QA guys, well, I'm referring to actual, paid beta-testers.
 
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BY2K

Membero Americo
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,711
Québec, Canada
As a QA Tester myself, let me just say.

You have no idea what we do. And it's nothing like beta testing or being in a beta.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,859
First of all, you don't seem to have any concept of what real QA people do. Second, early access is the benefit for beta users.

There is no amount of testing resources available in the world to simulate an open beta. It's either do that or release to production significantly buggier than it already is.
 

OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,800
Canada
QA here, QA and Beta testers are very different.

Beta is to test a wide variety of environments that is not typically seen or not easily reproducible in a QA environment. So seeing strange issues that you think "How did anyone miss this!" happens a lot, because it's not possible to reproduce in house unless you have a control device/account/etc that stops being a control when you perform the test.
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,645
Beta tests are not real tests, they are hype machines and a final "hey, does anything break badly when 1 million real users run this stuff?" But mostly they are there to get twitch/youtube streamers to start hyping your game.

I mean there isn't even a way to report bugs anymore with the most recent round of betas like black ops, Fallout 76, bf 5, etc.
 

hydrophilic attack

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,614
Sweden
i don't think that's really what QA does

that said, i really don't understand why people risk their hardware to participate in these beta programmes. the benefits don't seem to outweigh the risks, but each to their own i guess

(talking about OS update betas, not multiplayer game "betas")
 

alexbull_uk

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,927
UK
Haha, I've never seen so many people with developer tags post in a thread before. Think you may have missed the mark on this one OP!
 

Seedy87

Member
Jan 4, 2018
255
Christ. Participating in a beta, and working in QA are nothing alike. If nothing more, assuming that shows complete ignorance of how important a role QA has in game development.

These days, consumers treat beta tests as glorified demos. Everyone gets to try a game out before release to see whether they like it or not, and, from that, only a minority will actually take the time to provide feedback (broadly speaking). Sure, it helps to test the servers out, but how else can companies easily get /that/ many people to play a game before release? The data captured behind the scenes from these tests is invaluable for preparing it, otherwise they wouldn't run them.

The whole reason for running them is to broaden what has been internally tested on a smaller scale out to a larger audience. With more people involved, you're likely to spot an issue to then make sure it can be addressed before it becomes a far larger problem in the public domain.

Sure, games still release with bugs that are present. But, that doesn't mean that a QA team hasn't reported them to the development team. When one bug gets fixed another can pop up. It's like whack-a-mole. You're wrong, and I'd even dare say naive, in your base assumptions.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,771
I wish there were better resources out there for people to see what QA actually is lol
Ditto.

So....who wants to tell OP that despite games being much more complex than they were at the start of the gen that the average AAA is more polished in this day and age...?

Kind of a giant elephant in the room, you know, besides the one where OP has no idea what QA actually is lol.
 

kdillman

Member
May 12, 2018
13
Hi there,

That's not how that works. Research would be helpful for the point you are attempting to make.

Sincerely,
"a QA guy"
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
The entire point of public beta tests is to have as many people test software as possible, often testing things impossible to test in QA houses like pushing servers with hundreds of players to see what breaks. Beta tests have always been this way. The definition of beta means software is pretty much feature complete but buggy. So this isn't something new. If you don't want to test for bugs, don't play betas.

And you should just post in the Fallout thread since that's obviously what you are complaining about.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
There are tons of bugs that can only be found in the wild, not in a testing group. Plus QA does way more than find bugs.

Plus a lot of the betas you see are also network tests so that devs can get an idea of how many servers they'll need to provision in anticipation of a game being released.
 

Adamska

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,042
Fantastic backfire, OP, you should maybe have submitted your thread to QA before posting.
 

Vilam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,069
lol at the QA folks dog piling this hot take. You're way off base on the work QA does OP. Thousands of bugs that never get out to you are found and filed per project, as a very conservative estimate.
 

Kevin360

OG Direct OP
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,717
So, I'm seeing a lot of mockery of OP's clear misunderstanding of what QA actually is, but not really any constructive information about QA.

I think that could go a long way in furthering the discussion. I understand OP's point, albeit with a flawed understanding of some terminology.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
It's been a while I wanted to do a thread like this, but I think it's worth doing it.
Those days common users playing beta are basically the new QA guys, except they work totally for free.
We all know games ship in a bugged state those days, some of them are so bugged you can consider them a beta, even if those are 1.0.

I see threads like the PS4 Firmware 6.01 beta and I wonder how much money software houses are just saving with those practices. We know about some of them find ways to avoid paying taxes, the QA those days is pretty much non-existent, leading to situations like the recent Shenmue Collection, the Silent Hill Collection in the past, Assassin's Creed Unity, PUBG. People are often paying to beta-test products or, much worse, they just pay for products which remain broken even after the official release.

Why someone would beta-test a firmware for a new console if there is not a single benefit if not an early access to the update, with the risk of breaking your console (I still remember some official PS3 firmware updates that bricked several console) or compromising your account? It sounds like a suicidal procedure to me with literally no benefit. The only benefit is for the producer/software house which can avoid paying people to make sure the update/software works as intended. The Microsoft Insider program is indicative of this, with huge bugs passing under the radar of common users and ended up to be in an official update retired the day after released because it could nuke some personal data.

And still in this industry there are people willing to pay even more for their games, because 60$ (which are really 60$ in THEIR country, while they are 70 or 75€ in Europe) isn't enough. Games costed much less to produce in the past, of course, but it's also true they used to sell much less and SH weren't used to spend insane amount of money just for marketing, also avoid to paying taxes if they can, charging additional money for microtransactions, dlcs, season passes, even early access to the game or, like the title of this thread suggest, cutting cost where they should spend money instead.

EDIT: Maybe I used the term QA employee improperly, what I mean is people actually paid to test the game. If they are not the same of QA guys, well, I'm referring to actual, paid beta-testers.
QA guys continue to exist today and are paid for it. There's more of them are than ever before
 

dantevsninjas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
520
No. Beta tests are really just demos at this point. It's an incentive to pre-order or a way to drum up buzz. At best, they're stress testing, but they happen way too close to launch of a game to actually be meaningful. For paid beta tests, I've done some of that as well, and they are also generally just stress tests, but the testers are able to be guided to specific objectives to make them more targeted. Neither of those functions can replace actual QA.
 

1080peace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,148
So, I'm seeing a lot of mockery of OP's clear misunderstanding of what QA actually is, but not really any constructive information about QA.

I think that could go a long way in furthering the discussion. I understand OP's point, albeit with a flawed understanding of some terminology.
Maybe the onus is on the OP to first read up on the subject before starting a thread, no?
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
It should be obvious that players in a beta and QA testers aren't even remotely similar from the simple fact that a beta player has no responsibility.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,969
Beta testing is more like letting people in for a test screening of a movie. QA would be closer to the film editor (or the film editor editor). Not completely but close.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,372
So, I'm seeing a lot of mockery of OP's clear misunderstanding of what QA actually is, but not really any constructive information about QA.

I think that could go a long way in furthering the discussion. I understand OP's point, albeit with a flawed understanding of some terminology.

There are a few posts already doing this. Not sure why you didn't include the info needed yourself.
 

Vankash

Member
Oct 27, 2017
174
Germany
Fantastic backfire, OP, you should maybe have submitted your thread to QA before posting.
tenor.gif
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,728
Hey look I'm just as miffed as anyone that games seem to be released with a "fuck it we will fix it later" attitude. I mean shit look at the nonsense tweet Bethesda popped off with in regards to the fallout 76 release fuckery....but no, you are wrong OP. QA is an entirely different ballgame than beta testing.
 

Taker34

QA Tester
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,122
building stone people
QA person here, it's not the same really. What most public beta tests are nowadays are network tests at best.
I've never heard of people doing Paid Beta testing... Focus testing, which is to determine if a feature is worthwhile? Sure. Paid Beta? no.
Not sure if OP refers to that, because I'm confused as well but yeah "paid beta testing" was and still is a thing. EA had such a program back in the days too but that actually involved the usage of QA analytic tools. Everyone in the industry considers "paid beta testing" as QA work anyway.
 

Kevin360

OG Direct OP
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,717
Maybe the onus is on the OP to first read up on the subject before starting a thread, no?

Sometimes we speak in confidence out of ignorance, and I think OP is a good example of this.

There are a few posts already doing this. Not sure why you didn't include the info needed yourself.

I didn't include the information because I don't have the information. I'm not an expert on what QA actually does.

I may have a better understanding of it than OP, but not nearly informed enough to be the one explaining to OP what isn't understood here.

No animosity from me, I suppose I was making a drive-by observation.
 

Akai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,065
I've never heard of people doing Paid Beta testing... Focus testing, which is to determine if a feature is worthwhile? Sure. Paid Beta? no.

VMC does this with their Global Beta Test Network. You get tasks that you have to do in actual (Pre) Alpha or Beta builds and you get paid for it. Everything from home and under an NDA. Doesn't come close to actual QA testing, though.

Fantastic backfire, OP, you should maybe have submitted your thread to QA before posting.

Might be one of the best responses that I have read in a while. lol