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Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,309
So this has been bugging me for a while now. Open world games are a big deal right now and have been for ages. They've been a staple of the AAA space since the 6th generation, with even the likes of Nintendo and From Software going all-in on creating them now. They're a trend that has seen many iterations, improvements, experiments, etc over the years.

Yet... it seems that the style of open world games popularised by Bethesda's 7th generation titles is almost non-existent in gaming today.

What do I mean by this? Well, first I'll explain what I mean by Bethesda's 'style' compared to other styles of open world. I've spoilered this because it's not truly essential to my point here, but please do read it if you want full context :)

To me there are three primary types of open-world games when you refer to games with significant open worlds. So stuff like Deus Ex: Mankind Divided or the Yakuza games, which have small open worlds, aren't being counted here for simplicity's sake. Also note that games can be multiple types at once; Breath of the Wild, for instance, can be all three of these depending on how you look at it. It's got Ubisoft towers, Bethesda-styled

Ubisoft-Style
These are by-far the most common. The open worlds in these types of games are ones where you, essentially, choose from a list of activities to do at any one time. Even if you may discover them via different methods, the primary interaction one has with these open worlds is not through its 'places' (i.e. dungeons, towns, etc), but through small, bite-sized chunks of gameplay scattered about it all. Your enjoyment comes specifically from clearing out as these chunks of gameplay, not from exploring or interacting with said places in any meaningful way. Your exploration is done to find these chunks of gameplay; the chunks of gameplay themselves are generally not major sources of 'exploration'.

In these open worlds there is a very clear designation to be found between enemies, gameplay/story-related NPCs, and 'filler' NPCs. There are the enemies you fight, NPCs which are designated as quest-givers, or shop-keepers, or whoever, and then the NPCs that offer no purpose than to be 'set dressing'. Very often you literally can't interact with the latter two groups in any meaningful way. The middle group are rarely given proper names or contexts for what their situation is in that world.

Examples include:
- Practically every Ubisoft open world game since Assassin's Creed 1
- Ghost of Tshushima
- The Witcher 3
- Marvel's Spider-Man

Rockstar-Style
These kinds of open-world games have definitely died off in recent years but they're still very much in use by Rockstar themselves. They're the kind where the world is there for self-contained story missions and side quests, miscellanous activities, and any general chaos that the player wishes to create. They are definitely more dynamic than the former style, but even to this day there's a clear distinction between. Exploration in these kinds of open worlds isn't really encouraged too much as your primary fun comes down from the kinds of scenarios the game can create, or the chaos you yourself can create, in the world. You're either going between story missions, or using the world as a sandbox; the exploration is not the focus, essentially.

A similar dichotomy between the three types of NPC can be found here as well.

Examples include:
- Grand Theft Auto 3 onwards
- RDR1 and 2
- Mafia 1 and 2

Bethesda-Style
Now, this is where things get interesting. Bethesda-style open worlds are ones that I personally feel are defined by exploration of unique space. The 'chunks of gameplay' in Bethesda's open worlds are not referred to and contextualised as "Bandit Camps," or "Jumping challenges," but as actual places within the world. Similarly, exploration is the primary way in which one discovers these chunks of gameplay, but most importantly you are not told what a given location is there for when you first discover it. Unlike, say, a Shrine in Breath of the WIld you don't know whether a dungeon in Skyrim is a small place filled with a few enemies or the entrance to a brand new area. Similarly, unlike the towns in an Assassin's Creed game, the quests you can find in New Vegas' Freeside or Fallout 4's Diamond City are not signposted to you upon entry.

Another difference comes in how this type of open world treats NPCs. In these games shop-keepers, blacksmiths, etc are actual named people within these places instead of being defined solely by their profession. Whilst contextualisation can be lacking in some games, Bethesda-styled open worlds also at least try to contextualise the lives of most of their important NPCs. This means a lot of 'useless space', or places that have little significant loot or any real gameplay purpose, but are purely there to show you that "X character actually has a place to sleep."

In terms of overall design the open worlds of Bethesda games are likely the smallest of these three types. Their towns and cities are rarely more than small settlements and there are generally no 'fast' modes of transport due to you not really needing them. This is a downside to some, but this also means that there is rarely any 'wasted space'. No buildings you can't enter, or areas that offer nothing all that unique to see, etc.

To further help exemplify these three types, take a look at these maps:

Marvel's Spider-Man - Ubisoft Style
spider_man__0002_Layer_4.jpg

- A bunch of icons showing you what 'chunks of gameplay' there are and where.
- Story missions and side-missions are presented to you as separate from everything else

Red Dead Redemption 2 - Rockstar Style
red-dead-2-map-shot-1.jpg

- Few icons, with most only pointing to
- Story missions and 'Stranger Missions' are the only defined chunks of gameplay on the map

Fallout 4 - Bethesda Style
fallout-4-has-major-bug-linked-to-monsignor-plaza-workarounds-are-available-496239-2.jpg

Now, with that cleared up

I, personally, feel that the Bethesda-style of open world design is woefully underused in gaming, and I honestly don't know why. I feel that, when it comes to raw exploration, the emphasis on place and context over activity-types that Bethesda's open worlds show is something almost unparalleled within the gaming industry. Personally, I feel that it's the thing that makes their games so popular despite their generally lacklustre core gameplay. Fallout 4 with a Ubisoft-styled open world, for instance, would be an almost totally different game, and not a better one.

Even Breath of the Wild, which is heralded as one of the best examples of open-world design in recent years, tends to de-emphasize place in favour of hunting down context-less activities to do within the open world. The Shrines in BotW are memorable for their unique gameplay scenarios, not because they're any more different than the last one. Meanwhile Bleak Falls Barrow, or Vault 22, or the Dunwich Building are all memorable to me despite essentially just being 'dungeons' to fight and loot through.

And that above point is disappointing to me because Breath of the Wild is perhaps the closest a game has really come to aping Bethesda's style of open world well. It's emphasis on finding stuff for yourself is brilliant, and there are some outdoor locations that are incredibly memorable, but even then most of your playtime is spent finding context-less chunks of gameplay instead of actual places to explore. It gets close, but no way does it scratch the itch I have for Bethesda-style open worlds unfortunately.

The primary reason I really love these kinds of open worlds is because, unlike the other two types, exploration is your primary method of interaction. You're not 'ticking off boxes' and you're not creating your own fun. You can play these games in both of those ways, for sure, but because emphasis is put onto contextualising place instead of showing you 'chunks of gameplay' you aren't driven to do so nearly as much. You can actually wander because you know that, eventually, you'll reach something fun; whereas in the other games wandering done without purpose is wasted time. Similarly, the fact that things are not defined by their gameplay purpose means that you have less desire to do 'as much as you can'. If Skyrim gave you a big checklist of "x/100 dungeons," to complete then you'd feel more inclined to visit as many as possible even if you wouldn't go there naturally.

Similarly, the contextualising of these spaces means I care more about individual ones than I would for any 'Fox's Nest' in Ghost of Tshushima or 'Gang Hideout' in RDR2. This is because your interactions with these places are not solely via the gameplay that they offer you. The aforementioned locations are just a few of the many that I can remember from modern-era Bethesda titles; I could not tell you a single Bandit Camp that I truly cared about in my 60+ hours of playing AC: Odyssey.

Finally, the significant reductions in NPC counts actually makes these worlds feel more 'human' to me than others. Even RDR2, which painstakingly created routines for its NPCs, feels different to Skyrim where you can actually go see where that random guy you ran into sleeps at night. Though, again, this does vary, but it's still something I do love about these open worlds when done right.

Essentially, I feel that Bethesda Open Worlds are the most natural type of open-world design and I wish that we'd see them in gaming beyond Bethesda's own titles.

So, do you agree with me? Think my rambling is silly and that I should just shut up? Please comment below :)
 
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PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,022
Yea despite the lacking quest design of late, the open world nature and design of Bethesda games have been hard to beat. No one really does them the same. Despite all their issues they create some cool worlds. Even Fallout 76 with all it's issues, its world design and feel is still fantastic. There is a care put to their design, I like to read the little journals and learn about whats going on in the area. It's not just copy and pasted structures with no story behind it. Even if there is no actual story or quest involved, they usually put in story and reason for that building to be there even.
 

CountAntonio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,735
They are on another level. Sure I love driving around GTA and other rpgs have cool looking worlds but they are largely lifeless and not worth exploring. Entering houses or random caverns in morrowind only to find some strange way out questline or a strong item that will carry you for sometime is what made the genre great and what many games still lack.
 

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,022
They are on another level. Sure I love driving around GTA and other rpgs have cool looking worlds but they are largely lifeless and not worth exploring. Entering houses or random caverns in morrowind only to find some strange way out questline or a strong item that will carry you for sometime is what made the genre great and what many games still lack.

So many games now focus on creating big worlds, but they instead of having meaningful design to the world, just have this pretty landscape created for you to do redundant grind quests instead.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,187
say what you will about BGS (or "bethesda") they still have the secret sauce when it comes to open world dynamics. you don't have to like RDR, GTA, Horizon ect better than skyrim, fallout 3/4 ect but you can't deny there's virtually nothing like the latter
 

CountAntonio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,735
So many games now focus on creating big worlds, but they instead of having meaningful design to the world, just have this pretty landscape created for you to do redundant grind quests instead.
Yep. I'm always excited to explore a new open world only to be letdown how little it's worth exploring. For all their faults and they have many I desperately want to see what a next gen Bethesda open world is capable of. I've still enjoyed fallout 76 because of it's world.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
Probably because they are infinitely harder and more complex to make.
Yeah, there's a reason Bethesda's engine and tools have remained fairly similar the last 15+ years, these types of games and the world that accompanies them are a lot of work and much more complex than making something that looks prettier but is much more shallow. Most studios would have to invest years into the engine to be able to even begin making something as complex.
 

The Lord of Cereal

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Jan 9, 2020
9,675
I really liked The Outer Worlds because it honestly felt like a AA approach to Bethesda-style Fallout and it was a total blast to play. Same with Breath of the Wild, it honestly was the closest any game has come (in my opinion at least) to giving me the same energy exploring the world as in Morrowind, which I still believe to have the best open world (and corresponding sandbox) in any game I have played.

But yeah, Bethesda style worlds are severely lacking, and I hope that Avowed and any Outer Worlds sequels are able to make their own style of Bethesda open world games, and Bethesda style open world games being lacking is one of the reasons I am most excited for Starfield.


The Creation engine really is a magical engine to have been able to make the worlds as open ended as they are honestly
 

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,022
Yep. I'm always excited to explore a new open world only to be letdown how little it's worth exploring. For all their faults and they have many I desperately want to see what a next gen Bethesda open world is capable of. I've still enjoyed fallout 76 because of it's world.

FO 76 is one of the best Fallout worlds they've created in a long time. Shame about other aspects of the game, but it's a massive and super detailed world they made in 76, and it's loaded with lore and story behind almost everything. Lot of fun design just to visually stroll through and notice the unique touches they put into it. Say what you will about the game, they create fantastic worlds still.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,351
Seattle
Agree absolutely; I love pretty much everything about Bethesda RPGs... A large map, things exist on that map, you can choose to interact with that giant map in an array of different "orders." There's something to do around every corner, a basic economy to participate in, and a leveling system that you can take in a lot of different ways. And as you point out, the places you go.. are places.. and while they do kinda have some "check-list" elements (bar owners having quests, jarls always having quests, etc.) like you said, they are still all actually given by a unique person in the game with their own 24/7 day/night cycle. You can go into their house and throw their books all over the place and come back to it 100 hours later and find the same books on the ground lol

The way that is all put together makes those games what they are.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,369
Canada
I'd imagine it's because their engine and tools are specifically designed for this. Josh Sawyer recently mentioned on a live stream that with any other engine, they wouldn't have been able to put the amount of content in New Vegas in the amount of time they have.

People often knock Bethesda-style games for their visuals and animations, but it's one of the trade offs they make. And honestly, they've improved with each iteration. I always thought Skyrim and Fallout 4 looked pretty good for their time. I'm really excited to see Starfield.
 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,414
Nice OP. I've felt the same for a long time. There are very few non-Bethesda-style open world games that I've enjoyed over the years. Breath of the Wild was close, but still not quite what I felt playing Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 3, and NV, for the first time.

It's really hard I think. I really hope Starfield has this same feel.
 

Dranakin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,970
Great write up OP, and I agree with you, I miss the exploration of small, dungeon-like spaces and having no idea what they'll lead to.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,351
Seattle
FO 76 is one of the best Fallout worlds they've created in a long time. Shame about other aspects of the game, but it's a massive and super detailed world they made in 76, and it's loaded with lore and story behind almost everything. Lot of fun design just to visually stroll through and notice the unique touches they put into it. Say what you will about the game, they create fantastic worlds still.
Yes; it's the best Fallout world to me. I really enjoy every other Fallout map, but 76 takes the cake and I'm not even close to being done exploring it personally.
 

m_shortpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,264
Yup. I'm sure they are quite difficult to pull off technically as well.

Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind are always special experiences when you play them.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Ubisoft style is quicker and easier to make, but I would also say it's much more adaptable for a bigger number of game styles. I struggle to think of a good way to fit something like Ghost of Tsushima or Dying Light into a Bethesda style open world.

Rockstar open worlds also require massive money and time investments from the devs to keep the side stuff consistently entertaining. You cant make the level of interaction in GTAV or RDR2 have on a budget or with time constraints in the modern day. Even mafia 3 started aping the ubi style stuff.
 

hydruxo

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,450
Great thread OP. Bethesda's open world exploration is fantastic. They have shortcomings in other aspects of their games, but the feeling of exploring the map in Skyrim/FO3 and not knowing what you're getting into is unmatched. The amount of unique locations with environmental storytelling + unique weapons and gear is also a big reason why I love their open worlds. There's always something interesting around every corner and it's great. RDR2 came pretty close to Bethesda style exploration but it is more tailored for main and side missions.
 

beelulzebub

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,603
OP, you've so beautifully articulated why I've fallen out of love with open world games. Ubisoft style open world feels like checklists and busy work to me, and exploration and cities are simply a means to an end for more gameplay rather than something that feels organic. There's a greatly diminished joy of discovery. Since mostly what we've been getting as of late are Ubisoft style games, I figured maybe I just fell out of favor with open world games, but perhaps not, perhaps it's just this particular style of them.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
Bethesda has certainly nailed the "explore, fight, loot" mechanics of open worlds. Storywise is a bit iffy from them for sure.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,364
Yeah, while sometimes bits of Bethesda's worlds feel a little too much like a carefully arranged diorama, ultimately no one makes worlds like they do. They really feel like worlds, and the NPCs really feel like individual people with lives.

You could just wander the landscape in Skyrim for hours, and happen upon random forts and caves and stuff with their own storylines and characters. And I'd always get excited any time I happened to find a new vault in Fallout 3 or 4, because you knew it was going to have a story to tell that would be interesting.

I think that feeling of being a living, breathing place - janky as it can be - is what inspires the mod community to spend SO much time enhancing and improving Bethesda's games. Their games have always been greater than the sum of their parts.

I'm extremely excited to see what Starfield looks like.
 
OP
OP
Plum

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,309
Probably because they are infinitely harder and more complex to make.

I can understand that, but I feel that the amount of games Bethesda has been able to put out relative to their competition shows that there's not really much of a problem making these games if a developer wishes to build their tools/design philosophies around it. FO76 did only take a few years to make even if it was buggy and unfinished at launch. Personally I think that Starfield and TES6 will happen a lot close to one another than people may expect (3 years at most); it's the wait for that initial release that will be quite long, and that's due to how big an engine change those games are going to need.
 

Deimos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,779
Barren, empty wastelands with generic, randomly generated content. No thanks. They can stay under-used.
 

Tatsu91

Banned
Apr 7, 2019
3,147
Yea despite the lacking quest design of late, the open world nature and design of Bethesda games have been hard to beat. No one really does them the same. Despite all their issues they create some cool worlds. Even Fallout 76 with all it's issues, its world design and feel is still fantastic. There is a care put to their design, I like to read the little journals and learn about whats going on in the area. It's not just copy and pasted structures with no story behind it. Even if there is no actual story or quest involved, they usually put in story and reason for that building to be there even.
Say what one wants about FO 76 that world map is one of the best open world designs in recent years and their best overall.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,364
OP, you've so beautifully articulated why I've fallen out of love with open world games. Ubisoft style open world feels like checklists and busy work to me, and exploration and cities are simply a means to an end for more gameplay rather than something that feels organic. There's a greatly diminished joy of discovery. Since mostly what we've been getting as of late are Ubisoft style games, I figured maybe I just fell out of favor with open world games, but perhaps not, perhaps it's just this particular style of them.

Ubisoft makes huge, beautifully detailed worlds, but they still ultimately just feel like jungle gyms where you complete checklists. Just look at the last AC game - find the Roman artifacts, find the ingots, find the armor chests, find the treasure maps, find the trasure hoards, find find find find. Tons of it never really organically placed anywhere.

Of course, this is because they release those games at such a quick cadence, and collect-a-thons are much easier and quicker content to create.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,064
What really sets apart Bethesda games is that their systems and AI are far more complex and the world reacts to you in more complex ways. They're open-world immersive sims.

NPCs have daily routines, will try to eat and sleep, and react to situations procedurally. If you take away or destroy an enemy's gun in Fallout 3, he'll try to pick up another weapon. You can sneak grenades into people's pants by manipulating their inventories -- their inventories reflect what that kind of character would actually carry on their person.

I feel like the only non-Bethesda game this gen to get close to that is Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Cyberpunk is mostly a Ubisoft-style open world with a little bit of Bethesda in it. Breath of the Wild is mostly the Ubisoft formula but with the fat trimmed from it.
 

Deleted member 1238

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,070
Bethesda's emphasis on player freedom and exploration is simply unmatched. It's why I think so many people give Bethesda a break when their games are a bit buggy. Creating a world like that is no easy task. While open work games are more common than ever and the gap between a typical open world and a Bethesda style open world has certainly closed, there's still nothing quite like the worlds Bethesda gives us.

Fallout 4 is not the greatest RPG, but exploring that world was a blast. I loved wandering around Cyrodiil and Skyrim. I love how you can just go anywhere and find something fun and interesting to do. I love how open these games are from the very start. I was a freshman in college when Skyrim came out. My friends and I would meet up for dinner every night and talk about what we were doing in Skyrim and we all had different stories to tell. We were all doing such different things that you might have thought we were playing completely different games had you just overheard us with no context. The closest any game has really come to that sensation is BOTW.
 
Jul 26, 2018
2,464
Great read, thanks for this! It's pretty illuminating, even if I played many of the games you mentioned never gave world design a thought.
 
OP
OP
Plum

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,309
What really sets apart Bethesda games is that their systems and AI are far more complex and the world reacts to you in more complex ways. They're open-world immersive sims.

NPCs have daily routines, will try to eat and sleep, and react to situations procedurally. If you take away or destroy an enemy's gun in Fallout 3, he'll try to pick up another weapon. You can sneak grenades into people's pants by manipulating their inventories -- their inventories reflect what that kind of character would actually carry on their person.

I feel like the only non-Bethesda game this gen to get close to that is Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Cyberpunk is mostly a Ubisoft-style open world with a little bit of Bethesda in it.

The way Bethesda games treat NPCs is definitely the hardest part to replicate, I feel. However I do disagree that it's the only thing that sets these games apart. As FO76's base version showed even a game completely devoid of NPCs can still have the same open-world design that is very rare in other titles. Even in the Bethesda open worlds with a lot of NPCs the vast majority of your game-time will be focused around exploring unique places devoid of complex systems and UI.

Barren, empty wastelands with generic, randomly generated content. No thanks. They can stay under-used.
Can count me in this camp. Bethesda's open worlds are terrible. They destroyed the Fallout franchise with them.

Honestly these posts sound like you just don't like the post-Oblivion Fallout/TES games so... I'm not really seeing what they add to the discussion. The first one could be applied to most every open-world game if you think Bethesda's open worlds are like that, and the second one makes no sense unless you think New Vegas helped 'destroy the Fallout Franchise'.

This is not to say I'm unwilling to have disagreement here, but if you're not gonna elaborate, or explain why you perhaps prefer other open-world types, then what's the point? It'll just turn into a shouting match at that point.
 

Greywaren

Member
Jul 16, 2019
9,947
Spain
They are insanely hard to make and most studios probably just don't think it's worth it to spend that amount of time, money and resources on it when a simpler world usually does the trick.
 
Apr 30, 2019
1,182
Im playing Skyrim now for the first time and I'm blown away by how much better it is than any other open world game I've played recently.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,153
Bethesda style open worlds feel procedurally generated and doing things feels pointless. Probably because they're procedurally generated and doing things are mostly pointless. They're awful.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
Agreed.

There is reason the Elder Scrolls series is so beloved.

Now, Bethesda, just remove all Fast Travel options, quest markers and minimap options for future games.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
Bethesda's RPGs are outdated in a number of ways, but they offer a sandbox RPG experience that can't be found anywhere else. It's why they're the juggernaut that they are.

Barren, empty wastelands with generic, randomly generated content. No thanks. They can stay under-used.

Random encounters are hardly the meat of the content throughout the game as you're exploring and the reason why Bethesda open worlds are unlike any other are because their worlds aren't actually empty, like most open worlds.

So, I don't know what alternative universe you live in where your Bethesda games are the exact opposite of a Bethesda game.
 

KingK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,859
I enjoy all 3 styles for different reasons, but I strongly agree, OP. Well articulated post.

I was really disappointed with Fallout 4, so really I've been waiting for something new to scratch that itch since Skyrim. New Vegas is in my top 5 of all time, easily. Nothing comes close to these in actual role-playing for me.

I'm hopeful that Avowed, Starfield, and ES6 all deliver on that front this gen.

Although with Microsoft now literally having a monopoly on that genre, I would hope some other developer/publisher would realize how much of an undeserved market this is and try something new.
 

ASilentProtagonist

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,888
Bethesda nails handcrafted open world sandboxes, and world building. Curious to see how they approach a big sci-fi open world with Starfield.
 

Nameless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,370
I disagree with slotting Witcher 3 under Ubisoft. If anything it's closer to the Bioware formula applied to an Open World. The world primarily functions as narrative set dressing, meant to add texture, context, and a sense of place to the character drama(s) at the heart of everything. If anything Ubi has attempted to ape aspects of that style in recent years.

RDR2 actually borrows a lot from Bethesda in terms of exploration & discovery. The world is filled with meaningful things to unpack and mysteries to unravel without any hand-holding.

Beyond that I agree 100%. Great thread. Not sure anything will ever top the magic of Morrowind.
 

NabiscoFelt

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 15, 2019
7,643
My only experience with Bethesda Open Worlds are Skyrim, and in which case, they can stay under-used for all I care.

Then again, I might be conflating Skyrim's world design with its gameplay. Skyrim's world design honestly wasn't terrible. Its gameplay is extremely boring though, which kinda soured the experience for me. Maybe a open world designed like Skyrim but with gameplay that was more exciting than watching paint dry would hook me though.
 

Moose

Prophet of Truth - Hero of Bowerstone
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,180
Barren, empty wastelands with generic, randomly generated content. No thanks. They can stay under-used.
Bethesda style open worlds feel procedurally generated and doing things feels pointless. Probably because they're procedurally generated and doing things are mostly pointless. They're awful.
I could be wrong but I thought Oblivion was the only game that used a procedurally generated map from their modern 3D games. Morrowind, Skyrim and the Fallouts were all handcrafted. I also remember an article stating Starfield will be using procedurally generated environments.
 

ZeroDotFlow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
928
No way. Bethesda's problem with their open world design is that there's almost little connection between the gameplay and world itself. Every encounter, dungeon or what have you ends up playing out the same way as every other encounter or dungeon barring the few number of unique set pieces used by some of the higher quality quests. This makes exploring remarkably dull because no matter what you find it's going to play out in the same way.

Base Skyrim is a dreadful experience.
 

dunkzilla

alt account
Banned
Dec 13, 2018
4,762
Barren, empty wastelands with generic, randomly generated content. No thanks. They can stay under-used.
Yep. This is me. I see absolutely nothing special about Bethesda open worlds. They're boring as sin to traverse, and have very little meaningful, unique content. Once you've done a single "dungeon" (calling them dungeons is being extremely generous) you've done them all.
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
I think type two is "easier" to build and type one even more.
Type 3 must required a loooooots of interaction between each dev team, constantly.
To simplify, I think type one map is built around gameplay segment.
Type two gameplay segment are built around the map.
Type three is built simultaneously.
 

meenseen84

Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,943
Minneapolis
I do think there is something special about their games. I think Skyrim is my favorite game of all time, RDR 2 is probably the most impressive, and AC odyssey is the one I put the most hours into. They could all learn from each other.
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
I could be wrong but I thought Oblivion was the only game that used a procedurally generated map from their modern 3D games. Morrowind, Skyrim and the Fallouts were all handcrafted. I also remember an article stating Starfield will be using procedurally generated environments.
Depends where you put the limits between handcraft and procedurally generated. Speed Tree is procedural but this is still a human being chosing where trees are put in place.
 

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I could be wrong but I thought Oblivion was the only game that used a procedurally generated map from their modern 3D games. Morrowind, Skyrim and the Fallouts were all handcrafted. I also remember an article stating Starfield will be using procedurally generated environments.
I think all of Bethesda's games use some amount of procedural generation to create land and what not, but so do the vast majority of other big open world games. Obviously the devs then go in and touch stuff up and hand craft things where they want to.