Better sequel to Terminator 1&2?
- Thread starter Pilgrimzero
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I already went to bat for this movie in the OT but I'll do it again.
T3: Dark Fate by a country mile. Respects the lore, doesn't turn principle characters into a joke. Rev9 is menacing and doesn't fall for the stupid 'grab its target by the neck and toss them away' like we see in T3/T4/Genisys. Its only stopped because characters in the film actively prevent it from killing Dani. Grace's augments are a double edged sword and you see that it only works in short bursts so that she's not OP. She also does a good job channeling the manic essence of Kyle. Dani while being similar to Sarah in T1 comes to her own and is much stronger of a person in comparison. There are also political undertones in the movie not unlike what Cameron did with T2 so that is welcomed.
Carl's (T800) moral development reaches the logical conclusion set up in T2. The Terminator in T1 begins to learn and becoming more agitated as it tries to kill Sarah. The T1000 is a possible conclusion as to what The Terminator would have become: a sadistic murderer. Uncle Bob, however, slowly builds its own consciousness by its interactions with John, observing human struggle and all this leads to Uncle Bob overcoming its programming [switching the chip to read/write is non-canon]. Carl's development is the end result of Uncle Bob. Anyone crying over Carl's development was not paying attention or is purposely dismissing Uncle Bob's progress in T2 to make their points. Yes, Terminators are cyborg murder machines but the T800s are equipped with a CPU that is capable of learning through observation. Uncle Bob says so himself. It just so happens that Carl developed a moral conscious vs. becoming a soulless monster after he completed the mission. What I find interesting about Carl's progression was that [in his case] it was seemingly only possible by severing his ties to both John/SkyNet. SkyNet in the Dark Fate future no longer exists yet SkyNet only exists because of John and vice versa. Its almost as if the universe is righting its self by removing them both from the equation and by doing so, the end result is Carl's rebirth (in a sense). Their very existence enslaves the T800 and without either one of them present, he was able to develop unto his own.
A lot of people get hung up on John's fate in the film. First off, John has never been the main character. It was always Sarah, it was always her journey. I thought what they did with him was the only logical choice. Second, his fate is used to continue to build upon both the T800 and Sarah, taking them into different directions. While Carl is able to learn and grow from his past mistake [something he had no control over] he uses his newfound freedom to protect others and grow to become more human. He becomes a better person. He also gives Sarah a purpose in life after having taken away the only person that matters to her. Punished Sarah on the other hand is caught in a continuous cycle of bereavement and grief due to the deaths of Kyle/John. She is incapable of escaping this cycle because she is never given an opportunity to heal. She's wanted in 50 states, she is the only person who is aware of Terminators, SkyNet and the 'one possible future' that could have been but of course is labeled mentally insane. She has no one to turn to because all her loved ones are dead. She can never escape her mental anguish and trauma because she can't turn to anyone and no one is there to support her. Sarah Connor is a broken person. There is a moment in the movie where Sarah laments that she cannot remember John's face. To me this moment is so damn powerful because not only is the only thing that remember's John as he was is the cyborg that killed him [and she's denied her revenge] but two [and more importantly] its a powerful scene because it encapsulates a lifetime regret and pain caused by circumstances beyond her control. It summons a large knot in my throat every time I watch it. The direction they took Sarah's character makes the most sense and is significantly better than her dying of cancer off screen <.< Linda Hamilton's presence gives the entire movie legitimacy and imho we should all be damn lucky that she chose to come back.
Getting back to Johnny John John. We had three other movies that demonstrated that they really didn't understand the JC character or knew where to take him. The way people reacted to John in this movie also makes me believe that they did not understand JC's purpose in T1 and T2. What makes JC interesting isn't seeing him leading the charge against SkyNet. It is the mystical aura exuded through the way other characters speak of him. Listen to how Kyle speaks about John, how he reveres him. "there was one man who taught us to fight, to storm the wire of the camps, to smash those metal motherfuckers into junk. He turned it around. He brought us back from the brink." He's a Jesus Christ figure - he's the saviour...its literally in his initials (James Cameron, you egotistical bastard!) Salvation's biggest blunder was not committing to the ending of Marcus taking John's skin and wearing it. John Connor the man isn't whats important, its what John Connor represents: humanities will to survive. What doesn't make him interesting his turning him strung out druggie who refuses to take responsibility, or a meathead foot solider who is always shouting/growling, or killed and turned into a inept machine villain that gets dunked on throughout the last 2/3rds of a film. Each movie after T2 tries to explore the psyche of John and it falls apart at the seems when doing so. JC in T2 was never going to become the JC in the future because they literally changed the future. It wouldn't make sense. Dark Fate is the only movie that continues to enforce the mythical aura of Future John but it doesn't do it in an overt way.
Despite what happens to Young John, Future John's mythical aura/presence exists through Future Dani in the Legion future. This is evident with Grace's speech in the C5. She quotes the 'no fate' line, which she plainly states that Dani was the one who told her this. That is their mantra in their future, what drives them to fight back. Future Dani only becomes Future Dani because of Future John's influence. Dani had to have heard that mantra from someone and that someone was Sarah. She passed it on to Dani in the Legion future, when Sarah herself heard it from Kyle, who heard it from Future John. John's fate impacts everything and influences everything that occurs in Dark Fate; character motivations, beliefs and ideology, actions and choices made across all characters. Its pretty amazing that John Connor essence is present in a future where he physically does not. That is why I'm totally cool with what they did with John.
T3: Dark Fate has got some problems that I would change/fix but I feel the same way about T2. I genuinely love Dark Fate. I'm happy that it was made, and I believe its a solid bookend to T2 [even though T2 didn't need a bookend]. Dark Fate had to follow up two failed movies prior to it, and a parody remake of the second film. Its biggest hurdle was franchise fatigue and an apathetic audience because of Genisys. I honestly believe if Dark Fate came out without T3: Rise of the Machines, Salvation or Genisys existing, I think it would have been welcomed with open arms.
T3: Dark Fate by a country mile. Respects the lore, doesn't turn principle characters into a joke. Rev9 is menacing and doesn't fall for the stupid 'grab its target by the neck and toss them away' like we see in T3/T4/Genisys. Its only stopped because characters in the film actively prevent it from killing Dani. Grace's augments are a double edged sword and you see that it only works in short bursts so that she's not OP. She also does a good job channeling the manic essence of Kyle. Dani while being similar to Sarah in T1 comes to her own and is much stronger of a person in comparison. There are also political undertones in the movie not unlike what Cameron did with T2 so that is welcomed.
Carl's (T800) moral development reaches the logical conclusion set up in T2. The Terminator in T1 begins to learn and becoming more agitated as it tries to kill Sarah. The T1000 is a possible conclusion as to what The Terminator would have become: a sadistic murderer. Uncle Bob, however, slowly builds its own consciousness by its interactions with John, observing human struggle and all this leads to Uncle Bob overcoming its programming [switching the chip to read/write is non-canon]. Carl's development is the end result of Uncle Bob. Anyone crying over Carl's development was not paying attention or is purposely dismissing Uncle Bob's progress in T2 to make their points. Yes, Terminators are cyborg murder machines but the T800s are equipped with a CPU that is capable of learning through observation. Uncle Bob says so himself. It just so happens that Carl developed a moral conscious vs. becoming a soulless monster after he completed the mission. What I find interesting about Carl's progression was that [in his case] it was seemingly only possible by severing his ties to both John/SkyNet. SkyNet in the Dark Fate future no longer exists yet SkyNet only exists because of John and vice versa. Its almost as if the universe is righting its self by removing them both from the equation and by doing so, the end result is Carl's rebirth (in a sense). Their very existence enslaves the T800 and without either one of them present, he was able to develop unto his own.
A lot of people get hung up on John's fate in the film. First off, John has never been the main character. It was always Sarah, it was always her journey. I thought what they did with him was the only logical choice. Second, his fate is used to continue to build upon both the T800 and Sarah, taking them into different directions. While Carl is able to learn and grow from his past mistake [something he had no control over] he uses his newfound freedom to protect others and grow to become more human. He becomes a better person. He also gives Sarah a purpose in life after having taken away the only person that matters to her. Punished Sarah on the other hand is caught in a continuous cycle of bereavement and grief due to the deaths of Kyle/John. She is incapable of escaping this cycle because she is never given an opportunity to heal. She's wanted in 50 states, she is the only person who is aware of Terminators, SkyNet and the 'one possible future' that could have been but of course is labeled mentally insane. She has no one to turn to because all her loved ones are dead. She can never escape her mental anguish and trauma because she can't turn to anyone and no one is there to support her. Sarah Connor is a broken person. There is a moment in the movie where Sarah laments that she cannot remember John's face. To me this moment is so damn powerful because not only is the only thing that remember's John as he was is the cyborg that killed him [and she's denied her revenge] but two [and more importantly] its a powerful scene because it encapsulates a lifetime regret and pain caused by circumstances beyond her control. It summons a large knot in my throat every time I watch it. The direction they took Sarah's character makes the most sense and is significantly better than her dying of cancer off screen <.< Linda Hamilton's presence gives the entire movie legitimacy and imho we should all be damn lucky that she chose to come back.
Getting back to Johnny John John. We had three other movies that demonstrated that they really didn't understand the JC character or knew where to take him. The way people reacted to John in this movie also makes me believe that they did not understand JC's purpose in T1 and T2. What makes JC interesting isn't seeing him leading the charge against SkyNet. It is the mystical aura exuded through the way other characters speak of him. Listen to how Kyle speaks about John, how he reveres him. "there was one man who taught us to fight, to storm the wire of the camps, to smash those metal motherfuckers into junk. He turned it around. He brought us back from the brink." He's a Jesus Christ figure - he's the saviour...its literally in his initials (James Cameron, you egotistical bastard!) Salvation's biggest blunder was not committing to the ending of Marcus taking John's skin and wearing it. John Connor the man isn't whats important, its what John Connor represents: humanities will to survive. What doesn't make him interesting his turning him strung out druggie who refuses to take responsibility, or a meathead foot solider who is always shouting/growling, or killed and turned into a inept machine villain that gets dunked on throughout the last 2/3rds of a film. Each movie after T2 tries to explore the psyche of John and it falls apart at the seems when doing so. JC in T2 was never going to become the JC in the future because they literally changed the future. It wouldn't make sense. Dark Fate is the only movie that continues to enforce the mythical aura of Future John but it doesn't do it in an overt way.
Despite what happens to Young John, Future John's mythical aura/presence exists through Future Dani in the Legion future. This is evident with Grace's speech in the C5. She quotes the 'no fate' line, which she plainly states that Dani was the one who told her this. That is their mantra in their future, what drives them to fight back. Future Dani only becomes Future Dani because of Future John's influence. Dani had to have heard that mantra from someone and that someone was Sarah. She passed it on to Dani in the Legion future, when Sarah herself heard it from Kyle, who heard it from Future John. John's fate impacts everything and influences everything that occurs in Dark Fate; character motivations, beliefs and ideology, actions and choices made across all characters. Its pretty amazing that John Connor essence is present in a future where he physically does not. That is why I'm totally cool with what they did with John.
T3: Dark Fate has got some problems that I would change/fix but I feel the same way about T2. I genuinely love Dark Fate. I'm happy that it was made, and I believe its a solid bookend to T2 [even though T2 didn't need a bookend]. Dark Fate had to follow up two failed movies prior to it, and a parody remake of the second film. Its biggest hurdle was franchise fatigue and an apathetic audience because of Genisys. I honestly believe if Dark Fate came out without T3: Rise of the Machines, Salvation or Genisys existing, I think it would have been welcomed with open arms.
SCC.
It has some lows, but I really enjoy the slow burn and man that finale. Too bad we will never know what else was planned.
It has some lows, but I really enjoy the slow burn and man that finale. Too bad we will never know what else was planned.
It's still SCC. The movies have been getting clowned by a TV show for years now, and that's pathetic.
Yeah, I thought it was a really interesting piece of fan service. Again, I really don't care much for the series as a whole. T2 is my least favorite.
T3 is the best post-T2 piece of media. Though it has tonal issues it's got some great action and a brilliant ending. Dark Fate was too cynical and lazy a rehash of the first two movies.
T3.
I never understood the hate. T2 has the same silly moments which people like to give T3 shit for.
Dark Fate was a terrible mishmash of ideas other T2 sequels did better.
Gynesis had a nice idea but failed to execute it well.
SCC was terrible S1, S2 got better right near the end but it wasn't ever great.
I never understood the hate. T2 has the same silly moments which people like to give T3 shit for.
Dark Fate was a terrible mishmash of ideas other T2 sequels did better.
Gynesis had a nice idea but failed to execute it well.
SCC was terrible S1, S2 got better right near the end but it wasn't ever great.
Terminator 1 gave us a closed loop and nothing was really required to follow it. Everything was going to happen as it was fated. It was excellent.
Terminator 2 was definitely not a necessary film, and it gives us a sort of implied retcon in that the past can be changed, and the characters do change it. But, it was still an excellent film, so although it wasn't really required and it didn't mesh totally perfectly with the first, it's a stone cold classic.
Terminator 3 was more unnecessary than 2, retconning it's retcon so that now the time travel changes vague details of things, but not broad strokes - Judgement Day is inevitable and Skynet will happen no matter what, but the dates change and some people might be different between timelines. This sucks. This is the first time they try to basically do Terminator 2 again, but changing a few details here and there to make it more fresh. The movie is still ok, it has some moments, but it's nothing special. You could painlessly axe this.
Terminator: Salvation has an ok concept (show the future war, show the resistance) but isn't well executed. It doesn't look like the future war we knew aesthetically and it's just kind of a generic action movie. Pretty poor overall and most people dislike it. Bin it.
Terminator: Genysis tries once again to do "Terminator 2 but with a few twists". It's less successful than T3. Not unwatchable but there's also little to redeem it. Bin it.
Terminator: Dark Fate is YET ANOTHER crack at the T2 formula. It works about as well as T3 does, so it's better than Genysis but still well short of T1 and T2. They change Skynet's name... to Legion. But it's still absolutely, unequivocally Skynet with a new name. IMO people were so happy to have a reasonably competent movie that they really hyped this up as "The true sequel to T2" but it's still very very so-so.
Despite being one of the worst films, Salvation has the best concept (it's still not great). T3, Genysis and Dark Fate are all circling the conceptual drain, their stories some kind of metaphor for the film franchise - doomed to eternally repeat itself with a few of the names and places changed.
The Sarah Connor Chronicles was bleh in parts, but the eventual direction the story went in was starting to become quite promising. The idea of a third faction in the time war attempting to broker a peace that preserves Skynet without wiping out mankind in a war (i.e. peaceful coexistence) was possibly the only genuinely fresh idea the franchise has had since T2. It's a great direction. Shit got axed though, so we'll never get a good conclusion, and I'm not sure I'd bother telling people to watch the show.
Terminator 2 was definitely not a necessary film, and it gives us a sort of implied retcon in that the past can be changed, and the characters do change it. But, it was still an excellent film, so although it wasn't really required and it didn't mesh totally perfectly with the first, it's a stone cold classic.
Terminator 3 was more unnecessary than 2, retconning it's retcon so that now the time travel changes vague details of things, but not broad strokes - Judgement Day is inevitable and Skynet will happen no matter what, but the dates change and some people might be different between timelines. This sucks. This is the first time they try to basically do Terminator 2 again, but changing a few details here and there to make it more fresh. The movie is still ok, it has some moments, but it's nothing special. You could painlessly axe this.
Terminator: Salvation has an ok concept (show the future war, show the resistance) but isn't well executed. It doesn't look like the future war we knew aesthetically and it's just kind of a generic action movie. Pretty poor overall and most people dislike it. Bin it.
Terminator: Genysis tries once again to do "Terminator 2 but with a few twists". It's less successful than T3. Not unwatchable but there's also little to redeem it. Bin it.
Terminator: Dark Fate is YET ANOTHER crack at the T2 formula. It works about as well as T3 does, so it's better than Genysis but still well short of T1 and T2. They change Skynet's name... to Legion. But it's still absolutely, unequivocally Skynet with a new name. IMO people were so happy to have a reasonably competent movie that they really hyped this up as "The true sequel to T2" but it's still very very so-so.
Despite being one of the worst films, Salvation has the best concept (it's still not great). T3, Genysis and Dark Fate are all circling the conceptual drain, their stories some kind of metaphor for the film franchise - doomed to eternally repeat itself with a few of the names and places changed.
The Sarah Connor Chronicles was bleh in parts, but the eventual direction the story went in was starting to become quite promising. The idea of a third faction in the time war attempting to broker a peace that preserves Skynet without wiping out mankind in a war (i.e. peaceful coexistence) was possibly the only genuinely fresh idea the franchise has had since T2. It's a great direction. Shit got axed though, so we'll never get a good conclusion, and I'm not sure I'd bother telling people to watch the show.
Huh.... haven't watched the movie but this does look fucking great. I was like "Wait did they have extra scenes we didn't know about?"
Terminator: Dark Fate / Opening Scene (John Connor's Death)
Opening Scene (John Connor's Death). Scene From Movie: "Terminator: Dark Fate" (2019). Like & Subscribe! • Original title: "Terminator: Dark Fate" • Release ...www.youtube.com
I WANT A WHOLE MOVIE LIKE THIS.
Seriously, they made it look so legit. Young Arnold, young Linda. I want this.Cameron is a fucking BEAST.
I bet a lot of money and time went into making that look good and I doubt they could sustain that over an entire movie.
Of course Dark Fate does keep the ball rolling for future installments with...
...a new replacement skynet stand-in, but I did appreciate that in regards to Skynet itself, John Connor's future war and John Connor himself, it wrapped that all up with total finality. There's nothing of it left. No Skynet, no Cyberdyne terminators, no fathers being sent back in time and no John Connor. Everything resulting from that future timeline that was prevented is gone, almost like the timeline mopping up all remaining loose ends. All that's left of it are Sarah's physical and emotional scars from winning that war.
It's why if Dark Fate is the end, I am satisfied with that despite it's obvious sequel baiting.
It's why if Dark Fate is the end, I am satisfied with that despite it's obvious sequel baiting.
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Terminator 3 by a very long shot.
Sarah Connor Chronicles was pure fan fiction-tier garbage (Any Terminator story where they travel forward in time is garbage by default, and it had many other issues).
Genisys is probably the worst because it's the only one that actually goes and overwrites T1 and T2, you know, the only two masterpieces in the franchise, with its own shitty canon.
Dark Fate is trash in every way.
Sarah Connor Chronicles was pure fan fiction-tier garbage (Any Terminator story where they travel forward in time is garbage by default, and it had many other issues).
Genisys is probably the worst because it's the only one that actually goes and overwrites T1 and T2, you know, the only two masterpieces in the franchise, with its own shitty canon.
Dark Fate is trash in every way.
But
LEGION is just Skynet. All that's changed is the name. The only function in the story this name change serves is letting that one terminator fulfil it's objectives without "skynet" to give it new orders - fine, but it's still a future AI that tries to destroy humanity and then sends terminators back in time to kill people in the past. Skynet has changed before, it just kept it's name. In T3, Skynet becomes a distributed computer network over the internet instead of a single central server derived from the T-800 CPU (as it was in the T1/T2 timelines). They destroyed the T-800 CPU and changed the date, after all!
None of the Terminator media makes a good sequel to T1 and T2. I've found things I enjoy about them, but they're disconnected from the first two in major ways.
They're all shit by varying degrees. T3 had Arnold still (almost) in his prime and a good twist ending, I guess? Still pretty bad.
I guess maybe Salvation, because it gave us Christian Bale's little bitch-fit which is always good for a chuckle...
I guess maybe Salvation, because it gave us Christian Bale's little bitch-fit which is always good for a chuckle...
Sarah Connor chronicles was the shit. I felt so bad that I caught the show on the tail end. I still need to watch that show from start to finish.
OP
OP
I watched the T2 3D thing on Youtube. I cant be sure if people who mentioned that are joking or not. Then again for a 10 minutes conclusion to the Terminator franchise... I guess its alright?
Salvation was dope. I would pick that.
How in the hell do you sleep at night?
How in the hell do you sleep at night?
Genisys has the worst actors you could have picked to do Sarah and Kyle:
So Bland, where's the charisma in this couple. Barf.
Should have brought Robert Patrick back while they were at it.
My mind cannot understand why anybody would defend this worthless sequel.
So Bland, where's the charisma in this couple. Barf.
Should have brought Robert Patrick back while they were at it.
My mind cannot understand why anybody would defend this worthless sequel.
"What if we took this super dark future, and made it bright and sunny?"
By default salvation is. Not that was great.
People picking dark trash make me really sad.
Machines wouldnt magically alter the sky.
It was just night time in the previous shot.
People picking dark trash make me really sad.
Machines wouldnt magically alter the sky.
It was just night time in the previous shot.
Josh Friedman, the show runner, is part of the writers room for the Avatar sequels.
Josh Friedman Will Co-Write Avatar 2
Good grief… James Cameron has told us time and time again that he’s hard at...
Yeah what a fucking turd, that shit alone puts it below Genisys.
This is why Salvation is the best. It realized that it had to move on to the next chapter or else it would just make T2 worse.
It wasn't perfect, but at least it wasn't just a shittier version of T1 and T2.
Would not stop the sun from shining, 30 years later, indeed.
never watched the series
all the films suck. T3 sucks the least, but I don't really like where they went with it. Dark Fate was kinda insulting with how much it copied from T2
none of them are true futures. judgement day is still possible.
all the films suck. T3 sucks the least, but I don't really like where they went with it. Dark Fate was kinda insulting with how much it copied from T2
none of them are true futures. judgement day is still possible.
OP
OP
Genisys has the worst actors you could have picked to do Sarah and Kyle:
So Bland, where's the charisma in this couple. Barf.
Should have brought Robert Patrick back while they were at it.
My mind cannot understand why anybody would defend this worthless sequel.
The dude who played T-1000 did a great job of mimicing Robert Patricks style for the character
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Everything about the flashbacks indicate that the aesthetic of the future was irreparable damage caused by nukes. Salvation, despite having some good ideas, really missed the mark when it came to the tone and aesthetic.
Hey I'm not saying this is an incorrect statement.
But salvation still clearly has a post apocalyptic world.
The dark skies was because it was night time. Nothing can cause permanent black night after 30 years.
Or the world itself would collapse.
I'm not saying that Salvation wasn't post apocalyptic, i'm saying that it didn't really fit the Terminator aesthetic. The world itself appeared to have already collapsed.
hey, they probably saved a lot of money just having their shooting locations in some nearby desert in california without having to worry about lighting the set too much