Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,668
You need proportionate vote per state to not ignore the flyover states but still have everyone matter.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but what you're saying sounds like the actual opposite of reality. Candidates still ignore most states. Between most states being red or blue and winner takes all, along with the fact that the EC is increasingly out of touch with actual popular will and geographic reality, our system is almost straight up tailored to make a bunch of people feel like their votes don't matter or at least matter much, much less.

The EC causes far more problems than it solves.
 

NearingZero

Member
Jul 1, 2020
1,233
So I'm no math wizard here but I have been pouring over E.C. maps obsessively for about 20 years, and this argument generally boils down to "Well, if you pretend that Biden didn't win Pennsylvania and Michigan, then this election is actually a tie," and it's like, oh, ok, but Biden did win Pennsylvania and Michigan, and by wider margins than Trump did in 2016... "Yeah but pretend that he didn't and it's a tie." Oh, ok.
You're completely misunderstanding the argument. Biden clearly won PA and MI, but that only got him to 269. He needed more than just PA and MI. Any one of WI, AZ, or GA would do it, but they were all very close. See my earlier post regarding each of the winners' least close but necessary states.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but what you're saying sounds like the actual opposite of reality. Candidates still ignore most states. Between most states being red or blue and winner takes all, along with the fact that the EC is increasingly out of touch with actual popular will and geographic reality, our system is almost straight up tailored to make a bunch of people feel like their votes don't matter or at least matter much, much less.

The EC causes far more problems than it solves.
You can't solve the issue by recreating the same issue with other states. That is what I was trying to say. The issue isn't the electoral college but how those votes are attributed. All or nothing is the issue.
 

Deleted member 3017

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,653
Geez, when the Republican wins, Republicans scream how it's a landslide. When the Democrat wins, Democrats try to find ways to lessen the impact of the win.
Democrats tend to be more introspective than Republicans. Most on the left don't see this as a sport. We actually want this country to improve more than we want power or bragging rights over "owning" the other side.
 

qaopjlll

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,846
It's like Biden is being punished by the conclusions in the OP for winning Georgia and Arizona. Georgia, a state that no Democrat has won since 1992 and that Clinton only won in 1992 because 13% of Republicans in Georgia voted for Ross Perot. And Arizona, a state that no Democrat has won since 1952. No, you don't get punished in the narrative game for narrowly winning states.

He's not being punished for winning AZ and GA. If he had lost those states and all other results remained the same then his total margin of victory would have been the ~20.5k votes that he won Wisconsin by.
 

NearingZero

Member
Jul 1, 2020
1,233
The EC has a fair amount of problems, but I'm not sure this is the best analysis on the topic. AZ, GA, and WI were brought as examples of how much Biden won by, but that seems uncharitable. He could've won if he won literally any of those three states in this scenario, but to lose all three was highly unlikely. The same winds that lifted Biden across the US lifted him in these states.

Compare Biden's MOV in other key states to 2016, and the story is much different.

EDIT: for example, since in this scenario he only needed to win one of those three states, I selected WI as the only one he won and said that the MOV in Wisconsin was the same nationwide. The margin was 0.7%. If you compare this on the whole vote, he won the popular vote by 1.1M, which is surely a lot more than the actual number he won WI by.

The first and second examples of why the EC sucks are 2000 and 2016, and literally nothing else needs to be said.
Trump also only needed one of three outcomes in 2016, and he achieved each of them more easily than Biden in 2020 (the 3rd outcome was about equal).
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
OP's point isn't wrong regardless of framing people want to argue about. The fact is, democratic voters are very poorly distributed wrt the electoral college. Of course, that really comes down to the fact that the more rural a state is, the more republican it is and we got a lot of empty land states. Or, really, our electoral system and the Senate are complete shit.
You and your OP's problem is that you only want the popular vote to matter in the election and that agenda blinds you to the fact that when looking at electoral college votes Biden comfortably crushed it.

No one, absolutely no one, here has ever argued that electoral college doesn't need to be changed. Everyone here is supportive of your agenda.

Everyone is arguing against you that you are using bad logic to make Biden's electoral college victory to be worse than Trump's against Clinton.


Well, at the very least that is exactly what the OP is doing. If your intentions doesn't involve making Biden did worse than Trump with electoral college votes than move along because you are defending an OP who is and that's what everyone else has been pushing against.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
It's a bit misleading because the narrative always was that if Biden rebuilt the Blue Wall, he wins the election. He did that, pretty resoundingly.

Arizona and Georgia were just nice bonuses, no one really was going into the election saying Biden had to win those states.
 

rhindle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
368
The main takekaway from this, and from the 2016 election, is that the Democrat candidate goes into a general election with about a 3.5% handicap. If they win the popular vote by just above that margin (which Biden did) chances are they'll squeak by in enough battleground states to win an electoral college majority. Anything less and they're joining the Hillary Clinton club.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
You and your OP's problem is that you only want the popular vote to matter in the election and that agenda blinds you to the fact that when looking at electoral college votes Biden comfortably crushed it.

No one, absolutely no one, here has ever argued that electoral college doesn't need to be changed. Everyone here is supportive of your agenda.

Everyone is arguing against you that you are using bad logic to make Biden's electoral college victory to be worse than Trump's against Clinton.


Well, at the very least that is exactly what the OP is doing. If your intentions doesn't involve making Biden did worse than Trump with electoral college votes than move along because you are defending an OP who is and that's what everyone else has been pushing against.
You're coming in way too hot. The OP's point is that Biden absolutely fucking crushed it in the popular vote, biggest incumbent flip margin in a century and... it's the same amount of ECVs as Trump 2016, where Trump lost the popular vote.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,934
The EC has a fair amount of problems, but I'm not sure this is the best analysis on the topic. AZ, GA, and WI were brought as examples of how much Biden won by, but that seems uncharitable. He could've won if he won literally any of those three states in this scenario, but to lose all three was highly unlikely. The same winds that lifted Biden across the US lifted him in these states.

Compare Biden's MOV in other key states to 2016, and the story is much different.

This post is the best argument for why the exercise is a bit pointless, and not because most of this thread is bad at math.

The OP is correct about the absolute vote margin that could hand Trump a victory; but it's not realistic to say those specific votes could be micro-targeted to flip without it carrying across much of the vote around the country.

Of course, then it's also arguable that talking about the absolute vote margin in 2016 was beside the point too.

If Hillary had garnered *just enough* in the blue wall states in 2016 then she *also* probably would have performed significantly better nationwide. (Probably Biden's margin, unsurprisingly!)
 

qaopjlll

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,846
It's a bit misleading because the narrative always was that if Biden rebuilt the Blue Wall, he wins the election. He did that, pretty resoundingly.

Arizona and Georgia were just nice bonuses, no one really was going into the election saying Biden had to win those states.

He didn't win the blue wall resoundingly. He won Wisconsin by only 20.5k votes -- smaller than Trump's margin of victory in WI in 2016.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,562
While I disagree with the pretense of the OP (I Still think that Michigan and PA matter when determining whether 2020 was closer than 2016), I still think the question of where Democrats go from 2020 is important.

I think it's right to see 2016 and 2020 as unusual elections, too. Trump is very difficult to gage, and so many white working class voters tie their white identity to Trump, it'll be interesting to see not having Trump on the ticket produces results more like 2012 and 2008 (where white working class voters really didn't feel the same attachment to John McCain and Mitt Romney, and this is even true in 2004, where GWB's re-election was more contingent on a broader coalition of voters than Trump's in 2016). Trump has an effect on the electorate unlike any candidate in generations, both for and against him... Though, about 6million more against him than for him.

The electoral college going forward is more than just subtracting or adding math and getting to 270. There are actual issues that inform the future. No state is bankable. I think more and more, Arizona is going to start to resemble New Mexico and Nevada. I wouldn't consider Georgia to be blue at all going forward, and that this election may be anathema for another 8 year. Demographically, though, I suspect that Georgia will begin to resemble North Carolina more so than it would resemble ... Alabama or South Carolina. North Carolina and Georgia have progressively blue suburbs, and NOrth Carolina may continue to look more like Virginia than it does South Carolina.

I'm more depressed about Ohio than just about anything. Ohio seems lost. Meanwhile, the North East is as democratic as it has ever been.

THe E.C. map still favors Republicans, and it will for ages, beyond where we can expect future political lines to be drawn, where celebrity candidates or celebrity-like candidates can still shake up an election. Trump was that celebrity-like candidate, but so was Obama in his affect on the electorate. It's hard to know what the norm is after the last 16 year, so if we look at demographic shiifts, they seem to be in Democrats' favor, even while the institutions like the E.C. and Senate makeup clearly benefit Republicans.

He's not being punished for winning AZ and GA. If he had lost those states and all other results remained the same then his total margin of victory would have been the ~20.5k votes that he won Wisconsin by.

Yes, but he won them, and Pennsylvania and Michigan, and NEB-2. I get it, if Biden lost the states he won then he would have lost the election. But he won them, and drawing up analysis as if he lost them, or as if winning by 20,000 is the same as losing by 23,000 is a weird excercize. No, that's a swing of ~43,000 votes in Wisconsin to the Democrat from the Republican. It's a swing in PA of ~150,000. In Michigan of ~160,000, 100,000 in Arizona, 140,000 in Georgia. This isn't even considering states that Trump narrowly lost (NH, MN, NEV) or the states that Trump lost by just over or around ~4-5% in 2016, that were functional blowouts in 2020 like Colorado and Maine.

I get it as a thought experiment. "What if Biden lost Wisconsin, ARizona, and Georgia, he would have lost the election." Sure, ok, but by that same token, what if Trump didn't win MI, WI, PA or Florida...? I get it from the sense of "these were close elections and less than 1% of the American population decided the results," but beyond that it's coming up with weird counter-factual scenarios and I don't know what the point of that is. I don't think that anybody seriously thinks that 2020 or 2016 were blowouts, sure, Donald Trump says that 2016 was a historic blowout, but he's an idiot, and everybody else knows that both of these are very slim wins... but they're still wins, and 2020 is a marginally larger win for Biden than 2016 was for Trump.
 
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SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,823
Whether OP's logic is specious or not is a lot less relevant to me than the fact that we had to sit there and give a shit about how a city in PA voted while Biden was already up several million votes.

Cities are only gonna get bigger, and we need to figure out a way to wrest all this power from rural America that's making decisions about cities they won't ever even come to.
 

CerealKi11a

Chicken Chaser
Member
May 3, 2018
1,969
Trump also only needed one of three outcomes in 2016, and he achieved each of them more easily than Biden in 2020 (the 3rd outcome was about equal).
How easily he won them by isn't the most important metric here. The WI margin alone led to a 1.1M popular vote margin if extrapolated nationwide. That is far from the 20K he won by and is why I find this post uncharitable.

Elections aren't isolated incidents. Biden had to win back the margin Trump won by and then some, which he did. This isn't a vacuum and is emblematic of the trend seen nationwide which is why Biden ended up winning the EC as well.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
He didn't win the blue wall resoundingly. He won Wisconsin by only 20.5k votes -- smaller than Trump's margin of victory in WI in 2016.

When you hold Pennsylvania and Michigan it basically forces Republicans to have to run a perfect election and not lose their grip on any other major state ... that's a big ask.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,792
BuT dEmOcRaTs MuSt LoVe ThE EleCtOrAl CoLlEgE nOw!

Seriously, if by some miracle Democrats get the Senate, we need to dismantle it ASAP. It still dramatically swings in favor towards Republicans, and it's only because Trump was so hated that we squeaked out a margin in the majority of states. We may not be so lucky with a less manic Republican candidate in 2024 or 2028.

The National Popular Vote Interstate Compact needs to be adopted by the majority of state legislatures ASAP so we will never have another phenomenon where the loser of the popular vote ends up President. It's such a violation of Democracy to see people's votes in so many states dramatically underrepresented.

You can't dismantle the electoral college in the US. What you can do though is assign those electoral votes in a % based way instead of them being all or nothing.

That's the system we have in most EU countries, where in some cases they also give more weight to votes from the most rural areas, because otherwise the politicians could just make policies that benefited the wealthiest, most pupulated regions, in order to secure re-election, making the disparities even bigger.

In my country for example the rural regions are the left-leaning ones, and the more wealthy regions tend to be the right-leaning ones, so that has always been in the agenda of the right to try to change.

Edit: What you could also do i addition of assigning EV based on the % of the votes, is increase the number of electoral votes of the States that are growing in population
 

NearingZero

Member
Jul 1, 2020
1,233
How easily he won them by isn't the most important metric here. The WI margin alone led to a 1.1M popular vote margin if extrapolated nationwide. That is far from the 20K he won by and is why I find this post uncharitable.

Elections aren't isolated incidents. Biden had to win back the margin Trump won by and then some, which he did. This isn't a vacuum and is emblematic of the trend seen nationwide which is why Biden ended up winning the EC as well.
The premise of the thread seems to be compare how "safely" Biden won, compared to Trump in 2016. Despite a popular vote walloping, Biden's win was less safe than Trump's.

That doesn't diminish Biden's win, especially against an incumbent. Instead it shows how precariously close we were to disaster because of the structure of our electoral system.
 

CerealKi11a

Chicken Chaser
Member
May 3, 2018
1,969
The premise of the thread seems to be compare how "safely" Biden won, compared to Trump in 2016. Despite a popular vote walloping, Biden's win was less safe than Trump's.

That doesn't diminish Biden's win, especially against an incumbent. Instead it shows how precariously close we were to disaster because of the structure of our electoral system.
We are close to disaster, and we've seen disasters. These trends are concerning, yes, but I think it's better messaging to hammer how we have seen these trends break in favor of the popular vote loser twice in very recent memory rather than muddy the message with analysis that relies on hypotheticals.
 

Skytylz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
781
Biden won the electoral college by 43,692 votes. That's the total win margin of three closest states Biden won combined: 1) Arizona (10,457 votes), 2) Georgia (12,670 votes), and Wisconsin (20,565 votes). Biden won 306 electoral votes, but take away those 3 states, and you have a 269/269 tie, which Trump would have won. By contrast, Trump won the electoral college by 77k votes in 2016, with the three closest states being Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, all decided by less than 1 percent, just like the three deciding states in 2020.

People need to read this paragraph in the OP closer if they don't understand what is being compared. We are talking about the tipping point states. The closest states the winner won and how many votes they won them by. It just happens that this is 3 states both years, but the idea is you take the closest states until the winner is no longer at 270+ and the margin in those is how close the election was in raw vote count. It might be better to consider margin of victory in % for each state rather than raw vote count, but the logic in the OP is perfectly valid and shows that this election was very close.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,934
The premise of the thread seems to be compare how "safely" Biden won, compared to Trump in 2016. Despite a popular vote walloping, Biden's win was less safe than Trump's.

That doesn't diminish Biden's win, especially against an incumbent. Instead it shows how precariously close we were to disaster because of the structure of our electoral system.
And that poster's argument is that the "closeness" is at least a *bit* illusory, because the same tide that carried Biden to six million more popular votes also carried him to those thousands of votes in the tipping point states.

Those tipping point votes are probably tied to several million votes nationwide.

(That still means he could have lost the EC with a three million popular vote lead, of course.)
 

OfficerRob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,196
As others have pointed out, using the three closest when two of those were basically bonus states, to make things seem closer than they are is pretty misleading
 

NearingZero

Member
Jul 1, 2020
1,233
And that poster's argument is that the "closeness" is at least a *bit* illusory, because the same tide that carried Biden to six million more popular votes also carried him to those thousands of votes in the tipping point states.

Those tipping point votes are probably tied to several million votes nationwide.

(That still means he could have lost the EC with a three million popular vote lead, of course.)
Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense to me, and I do agree somewhat.

However, because states can vary wildly in how they conduct elections, there can be a disconnect. GA and WI Republicans especially have tried to disenfranchise voters in significant ways, I believe. If they had been a bit more successful in those efforts, the results may have changed without any national change. I think AZ has been voting early and by mail for a while, so that result is probably more directly tied to the national trend.

I don't know a lot of the specifics of voting procedures for each of the states, so I apologize if I got something grossly wrong.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,272
As others have pointed out, using the three closest when two of those were basically bonus states, to make things seem closer than they are is pretty misleading

People need to read this paragraph in the OP closer if they don't understand what is being compared. We are talking about the tipping point states. The closest states the winner won and how many votes they won them by. It just happens that this is 3 states both years, but the idea is you take the closest states until the winner is no longer at 270+ and the margin in those is how close the election was in raw vote count. It might be better to consider margin of victory in % for each state rather than raw vote count, but the logic in the OP is perfectly valid and shows that this election was very close.

This is why those states are being used as a point of comparison. They were the tipping point states.
 

Captain_Vyse

Member
Jun 24, 2020
6,855
Democrats tend to be more introspective than Republicans. Most on the left don't see this as a sport. We actually want this country to improve more than we want power or bragging rights over "owning" the other side.
I agree. Introspection is good. However, I fail to see how talking down a win has positive impact. Look at the Republicans, even when Bush barely won in 2000, they still acted like they won big. We can be both introspective, and not talk down our victories. Negative attitudes become a self fulfilling prophecy.
 

Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
People really overlook how hard it is for an incumbent president to lose

this is a major indictment of trump as a person and his awful job at being president
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,652
Again the narrative of 2016 stuck because Clinton losing the Wall killed her

There'd have been little discussion if Trump won via Georgia and Arizona.

If Biden held the Wall but failed in AZ and GA then the conversation would be about the drifting of Florida and Ohio

But the 3 state margin argument would be he tripled Trump.

The differential margin between Wisconsin on 2016 and 2020 is a rounding error.
 

Rats

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,148
I literally don't understand how anybody reads this OP and sees it as an attack on Biden. Step away and stop internalizing everything.
 

Deleted member 3017

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,653
I agree. Introspection is good. However, I fail to see how talking down a win has positive impact. Look at the Republicans, even when Bush barely won in 2000, they still acted like they won big. We can be both introspective, and not talk down our victories. Negative attitudes become a self fulfilling prophecy.
Oh I agree Dems take it too far a lot of the time.
 

NearingZero

Member
Jul 1, 2020
1,233
I literally don't understand how anybody reads this OP and sees it as an attack on Biden. Step away and stop internalizing everything.
Seriously. It's basically:

How fucked up is it that Biden did REALLY well, but the electoral college victory was a squeaker? How do we realistically fix that?
 

NearingZero

Member
Jul 1, 2020
1,233
Stricter redistricting laws, mainly. Then stronger efforts to combat misinformation (no idea how this is realistically done).
Or win both GA senate seats, add DC and PR, expand the House, and dominate! (I don't think those steps would guarantee Democratic presidents by any means, but I think they'd make things much more comfortable).
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
That's the system we have in most EU countries, where in some cases they also give more weight to votes from the most rural areas, because otherwise the politicians could just make policies that benefited the wealthiest, most pupulated regions, in order to secure re-election, making the disparities even bigger.
The problem is that that's entirely redundant with the Senate giving 2 senators no matter what the population of a state is AND the House having rural area bias. Not that it's really feasible for the EC to be abolished in the U.S., but there's some massive card stacking.
 

Deleted member 4461

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Oct 25, 2017
8,010
Or win both GA senate seats, add DC and PR, expand the House, and dominate! (I don't think those steps would guarantee Democratic presidents by any means, but I think they'd make things much more comfortable).

Yeah, I think that theoretically helps Dems, but as you said it doesn't really guarantee Dem Presidents/that this situation improves.

Still a good thing to do! Just doesn't necessarily change things.

And as AOC pointed out:

 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,342
Or win both GA senate seats, add DC and PR, expand the House, and dominate! (I don't think those steps would guarantee Democratic presidents by any means, but I think they'd make things much more comfortable).

win the ga runoffs, add, dc + pr (not a guarantee to get a net gain of dem reps though), and then consider other options to sincerely hold onto the senate for the future. with paths getting harder and harder, consider efforts like making socal counties into states. san diego county, los angeles county, riverside county, and san bernadino counties would generally be blue states each with populations in the millions, while the rest of california would still be blue. it would help democrats in the electoral college too because the makeup of ec votes is # of house of representatives + # of senators.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 31923

User requested account closure
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5,826
Yeah, I think that theoretically helps Dems, but as you said it doesn't really guarantee Dem Presidents/that this situation improves.

Still a good thing to do! Just doesn't necessarily change things.

And as AOC pointed out:



Yeah, I think the election results in 2020 along the Texas border and in Miami showed that Latinos are incredibly diverse and can swing to the GOP sometimes. At least DC is as close as a guarantee as two Democratic senators as you are going to get.

It may sound crazy, but what about splitting certain blue states into two? East and West Hawaii, North and South California, etc. It doesn't work everywhere. If you split New York into North and South, you just made a new red state.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
About the house stuff didn't some lawyer toss out the idea that as long as the dems controlled the house the whole 269 stuff doesn't mean an automatic Trump victory. Something about the Speaker having more control then people realize and can swear in the dem state delegations first, hold the vote for president, then swear in the republican states after the president was already decided. Don't remember the exact argument, but it was something about the speaker being able to use the wording in the constitution to make it work in his/her favour.

Yes. House decides its own procedures and no one can say otherwise. Speaker gets sworn in alone first and she can go about things however she wants. Legally. Of course it will lead to violent backlash.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, Iā€™m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,452
Yeah, I think the election results in 2020 along the Texas border and in Miami showed that Latinos are incredibly diverse and can swing to the GOP sometimes. At least DC is as close as a guarantee as two Democratic senators as you are going to get.

It may sound crazy, but what about splitting certain blue states into two? East and West Hawaii, North and South California, etc. It doesn't work everywhere. If you split New York into North and South, you just made a new red state.

meh I say merge some rural states together. We don't need North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wyoming
I say we just have Dakoming pronounced Da Coming
 

rickyson33

Banned
Nov 23, 2017
3,053
It will probably end up much more than that. There are a lot of outstanding New York votes.

Either way, the way around this is new states. Which means we have to win the Georgia runoffs and give Manchin enough pork to create new states.

I guess every little bit helps but overturning the 1929 Reapportionment act would make a much bigger difference for this than new states would

although that also needs the Senate so yeah
 

Deleted member 4461

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Oct 25, 2017
8,010
Yeah, I think the election results in 2020 along the Texas border and in Miami showed that Latinos are incredibly diverse and can swing to the GOP sometimes. At least DC is as close as a guarantee as two Democratic senators as you are going to get.

It may sound crazy, but what about splitting certain blue states into two? East and West Hawaii, North and South California, etc. It doesn't work everywhere. If you split New York into North and South, you just made a new red state.

The issue with splitting the states like this (besides potential to backfire down the road) is that there's A) no precedent and B) no justification for it.

There's no logic you can sell to the country that says "lets cut these states up specifically based around blue counties for reasons"