Bill Maher apparently thinks its ridiculous to apologize for blackface,homophobic jokes,sexual assault,racism and being friends with a war criminal

[Jade1962]

I've listened to enough Ben Shapiro to confidently say no. Ben Shapiro's world view is based on the dogmatic idea that the old testament is the word of god that defines moral truth and informs normative behavior. With the exception of one person (I've actually had this conversation with him), I don't think any of my other co-workers share that belief and I don't recall any conversation were we talked about Ben Shapiro or anything he said.

The point I am was tying to make (rather unsuccessfully) is that it is a false belief to think all Trump voters are stupid, low-information, racist, bigots, or 1%ers. There are other reasons for why people vote against liberals. Some of these reason are complicated and I tried to share some personal experience to illustrate, but it appears that many people in this thread aren't convinced. I've already shared my experience in previous posts so I will leave it at that.




I've actually had a similar conversation with a buddy of mine. George Wallace died only 25 years ago; his children's generation are still in power. These ideas didn't just go away when civil rights legislation was passed. If anything, these ideas and people went underground and became more insidious and difficult to root out. The only people I've ever met that don't get this were obviously racist; I avoid these people once this becomes clear. However, I do know a couple of people who understand the history of systemic racism in this country, who believe it is still a very real problem, but don't put it as their number one priority to solve in the hypothetical "lets fix all the problems in the US" game. They just have different values (and yes of course, they have the benefit of white privilege). I guess I don't see the simple answers and explanations that many in this thread espouse. I think people and issues are much more complicated. Going through this thread and having this conversation makes me realize the size of the bubble I live in, and it is probably a very small bubble. This is going to sound really pretentious and bad, but when my friends, co-workers, and I talk about politics and society, we don't reference Ben Shapiro or Bill Maher. We talk about Hobbs, Niebuhr, and Calvinism and we debate ideas based on the latest research from journals and academics. I am not friends with or work with anybody who is a conspiracy theorist, a Trump cultist, an obvious racist, or anybody who is not capable of changing their mind based on a conversation or debate. I've never seen these cartoon versions of people in real life (with the exception of one person). I try to keep an open mind and talk to as many people as possible in life, but I can never seem to reconcile my life experiences with what I see online. Maybe most people are simple cartoon versions of a person and I am just trapped in my bubble.

EDIT: Let me add, I think the idea that most people are racists only holds true for certain parts of the country. I do think that everybody has racial biases; it is the cultural bagged left over from slavery and segregation, but in general I don't think that most people want to go back to a segregation style society.



Please don't to twist my words. If something appears a certain way to you, then ask me about it and I will clarify. I am sure you would want me to extend the same benefit to you.

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You come across as a nice enough poster but America is segregated currently it's not a thing of the past. I just think you're happy in your bubble and don't want to think about how the country truly is. Also most people aren't cartoon characters and the fact that your describe racist in that manner leads me to believe you're that type of person that thinks racism only exist is you're burning a cross in a klan hood. I will say as a 38 year old black man growing up in Texas I've found it quite amazing that I've never met a single racist, sexist, or bigot at least according to themselves. Maybe this clip will better put into perspective how most white people are unable to see their racism. When it's a part of the culture it's hard to recognize.

 

[Sanka]

I can't fathom watching this bullshit. But Bill Maher basically represents most of america so I'm not suprised he is popular at all.

 

[ken_matthews]

You come across as a nice enough poster but America is segregated currently it's not a thing of the past. I just think you're happy in your bubble and don't want to think about how the country truly is.

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I never said it wasn't; it's the legacy of slavery and legally enforced segregation. But if you put segregation, explicitly enforced by the law, on the ballot across the country then I don't think most white people will vote for it. Sure, there will be parts of the country where they will, but I don't think the majority of white people support that. Now that doesn't mean that there isn't still a widespread problem with systemic/institutional racism, of course there is. I guess in my mind there is a difference of degree, with white supremacists/nationalists on one side, and the racial biases that everybody has on the other. I think most people's racism is somewhere closer to the middle, and skews more to the racial bias side for the younger generations. However, I do believe that there are way too may people in positions of power that are much closer to/entirely on the white nationalist side of the spectrum. Those people also tend to be older white males, so that's not really a surprise.

Also most people aren't cartoon characters and the fact that your describe racist in that manner leads me to believe you're that type of person that thinks racism only exist is you're burning a cross in a klan hood. I will say as a 38 year old black man growing up in Texas I've found it quite amazing that I've never met a single racist, sexist, or bigot at least according to themselves. Maybe this clip will better put into perspective how most white people are unable to see their racism. When it's a part of the culture it's hard to recognize.

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When I use the phrase "cartoon character", I mean something along the lines of "a two dimensional description of a person that captures their motives and wants with just a few lines". So to me, when somebody says that all Trump voters are low-information racists, it paints a cartoon version of a person that. Of course some people are low-information racists, but I think it is more often a distortion caused by projecting internal biases and blind spots onto other people. I am not trying to be disrespectful, but the way you described me kind of makes my point. You said:

"...the fact that your describe racist in that manner leads me to believe you're that type of person that thinks racism only exist is you're burning a cross in a klan hood."

even though I said:

"George Wallace died only 25 years ago; his children's generation are still in power. These ideas didn't just go away when civil rights legislation was passed. If anything, these ideas and people went underground and became more insidious and difficult to root out."

I literally said the opposite of your impression. You linked me to a video that highlighted issues that I would never argue against (and never have). This is what I was attempting to get at. I tried to use my personal experiences to show that people really are more complicated, that they have different values, and they have views that often don't have anything to do with the cartoon versions of them. This is the blind spot Maher highlighted in the video; that there are other reason why people vote against liberals. Some of these reason are false impression (i.e. associating "soft culture" with liberal values) that can be overcome by recognizing the blind spots and engaging people on their ideas and views, not on what you think they are. Of course there are bad faith actors, but it is silly to assume that somebody is acting in bad faith solely based on the fact that they don't agree with you. And I really do take Rapoport's Rules very seriously. I try to have as many conversations as possible with people who think differently than me, and I make an effort to understand their positions as best as I can, without judgment or hostility. I didn't make up any of the anecdotes in my previous posts. This wasn't some ruse to smuggle in my own beliefs under the cover of factious people for whatever reason you want. These were real conversation with people I know who are very likely not racist (except for one person who probably is racist).

 

[Jade1962]

I never said it wasn't; it's the legacy of slavery and legally enforced segregation. But if you put segregation, explicitly enforced by the law, on the ballot across the country then I don't think most white people will vote for it. Sure, there will be parts of the country where they will, but I don't think the majority of white people support that. Now that doesn't mean that there isn't still a widespread problem with systemic/institutional racism, of course there is. I guess in my mind there is a difference of degree, with white supremacists/nationalists on one side, and the racial biases that everybody has on the other. I think most people's racism is somewhere closer to the middle, and skews more to the racial bias side for the younger generations. However, I do believe that there are way too may people in positions of power that are much closer to/entirely on the white nationalist side of the spectrum. Those people also tend to be older white males, so that's not really a surprise.




When I use the phrase "cartoon character", I mean something along the lines of "a two dimensional description of a person that captures their motives and wants with just a few lines". So to me, when somebody says that all Trump voters are low-information racists, it paints a cartoon version of a person that. Of course some people are low-information racists, but I think it is more often a distortion caused by projecting internal biases and blind spots onto other people. I am not trying to be disrespectful, but the way you described me kind of makes my point. You said:

"...the fact that your describe racist in that manner leads me to believe you're that type of person that thinks racism only exist is you're burning a cross in a klan hood."

even though I said:

"George Wallace died only 25 years ago; his children's generation are still in power. These ideas didn't just go away when civil rights legislation was passed. If anything, these ideas and people went underground and became more insidious and difficult to root out."

I literally said the opposite of your impression. You linked me to a video that highlighted issues that I would never argue against (and never have). This is what I was attempting to get at. I tried to use my personal experiences to show that people really are more complicated, that they have different values, and they have views that often don't have anything to do with the cartoon versions of them. This is the blind spot Maher highlighted in the video; that there are other reason why people vote against liberals. Some of these reason are false impression (i.e. associating "soft culture" with liberal values) that can be overcome by recognizing the blind spots and engaging people on their ideas and views, not on what you think they are. Of course there are bad faith actors, but it is silly to assume that somebody is acting in bad faith solely based on the fact that they don't agree with you. And I really do take Rapoport's Rules very seriously. I try to have as many conversations as possible with people who think differently than me, and I make an effort to understand their positions as best as I can, without judgment or hostility. I didn't make up any of the anecdotes in my previous posts. This wasn't some ruse to smuggle in my own beliefs under the cover of factious people for whatever reason you want. These were real conversation with people I know who are very likely not racist (except for one person who probably is racist).

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I don't know what else really to say to you. I feel like you speak out of both sides of your mouth and maybe it's because you switch from your personal beliefs to your coworkers beliefs. In the end I don't think we are going to come to a conclusion considering you insist that segregation is not a thing. White flight is not a thing of the past and gentrification actively removes people of color from their neighborhoods through police action to allow the white people moving in to be more comfortable. If you insist on saying that people are not cartoon characters how else am I to interpret your ideas on racism. Yes people have a spectrum of beliefs and vote for different reasons but their beliefs are informed by their values. They can't be separated. Also people can say whatever they like it's their actions that have consequences. So yes if you did a poll I'm sure white people will say they are against segregation but when integration policies are put into place or merely suggested their true feelings come out. I'll never buy that "soft culture" or whatever else overrides all other things democrats stand for and causes some one to not just vote republican but for Donald Trump. Also I've never once painted all Trump voters as low information voters and I don't think most are. I don't think education matters when its comes to someone's core values and beliefs. I work in physiological research and the amount second guessing and out right ignoring of my ideas is palatable. Too many look at me like I don't belong, so my experience with my coworkers who are nice enough and mostly vote democrat lets me know racial bias is very much a thing across the board republican or democrat. I will end this conversation just by saying it's not a coincidence that these voters who really want to vote democrat but just can't get over "soft culture" or whatever else are almost always white or white adjacent. My friends and family are very conservative when it comes to "family values", are strict and believe in spankings, church going christians and have no problem with guns but guess what they vote democrat. How is it that black people don't suffer from this affliction of not being able to look past their potential differences in certain "values" when it comes to voting for progressives?

 

[Software Update]

Bill Maher is an asshole. Who likes him? Neoliberals?

 

[ken_matthews]

I don't know what else really to say to you. I feel like you speak out of both sides of your mouth and maybe it's because you switch from your personal beliefs to your coworkers beliefs. In the end I don't think we are going to come to a conclusion considering you insist that segregation is not a thing. White flight is not a thing of the past and gentrification actively removes people of color from their neighborhoods through police action to allow the white people moving in to be more comfortable.

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Well, you don't have to say anything else to me, it is just a conversation and you can choose to continue it or not. And maybe I am just not a clear communicator, but I don't think I ever insist that segregation is not a thing. I agreed with you and said our current segregation is the result of our previous legally enforced segregation. It tried to make the distinction clear by saying "explicitly enforced by the law", meaning that there are no more laws that say black people cannot use a "whites only" bathroom. Also I tried to make it clear in my first post that I intended to share my personal experiences with others, not argue my personal position.

If you insist on saying that people are not cartoon characters how else am I to interpret your ideas on racism.

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You can just ask instead of trying to guess. I will tell you and then you can make up your mind on whether you believe I am being honest or not.

Yes people have a spectrum of beliefs and vote for different reasons but their beliefs are informed by their values. They can't be separated.

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I don't think I ever communicated something along those lines. If I wrote something specifically that gave you that impression, please point it out and I will correct that because I never intended to suggest that.

Also people can say whatever they like it's their actions that have consequences. So yes if you did a poll I'm sure white people will say they are against segregation but when integration policies are put into place or merely suggested their true feelings come out. I'll never buy that "soft culture" or whatever else overrides all other things democrats stand for and causes some one to not just vote republican but for Donald Trump.
Also I've never once painted all Trump voters as low information voters and I don't think most are. I don't think education matters when its comes to someone's core values and beliefs. I work in physiological research and the amount second guessing and out right ignoring of my ideas is palatable. Too many look at me like I don't belong, so my experience with my coworkers who are nice enough and mostly vote democrat lets me know racial bias is very much a thing across the board republican or democrat. I will end this conversation just by saying it's not a coincidence that these voters who really want to vote democrat but just can't get over "soft culture" or whatever else are almost always white or white adjacent. My friends and family are very conservative when it comes to "family values", are strict and believe in spankings, church going christians and have no problem with guns but guess what they vote democrat. How is it that black people don't suffer from this affliction of not being able to look past their potential differences in certain "values" when it comes to voting for progressives?

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I agree with you, there are more than just a few instances of self proclaimed liberals acting against social justice and reform. I think classism plays a role, but this where I believe white privilege really has an effect. I think a lot of these people don't have to deal with racism on a personal level so their priorities are motivated by other things. But not all of these people are white, one of my co-workers (I don't actually know how she voted) is an Asian woman who is married to a Mexican man, who openly hates Trump but very much buys into the liberal "soft culture" perception (she is the person I was talking about when I brought up teen suicide in a previous post). I understand your impression on the "soft culture" argument because your values (and mine) are different then some of theirs. As a liberal, I don't think there is anything soft about liberal values, and bad parenting has nothing to do with political affiliation. However, it is a very real perception that many people have. The problem is complicated because it is not entirely baseless. There is a lot of research that shows authoritative parenting has a positive correlation with a child's academic and future life success. There is a lot of research into childhood resilience and grit, and how learning to deal with/overcome adversity is an important quality for children to have (I provided links in my previous posts). Somehow, a lot of people have the impression that liberals aren't capable of instilling these values and qualities in their children. This idea constantly gets reinforced through anecdotes like the one Maher described about the guy he met in the Midwest. And for many of these people, it's not just about screaming kids in a parking lot and the apologizing parent, instead it is about today and the future of the country. Again, in Maher's story, he recalls that the guy said that "he can't have these people running the country". These are real beliefs for a lot of people who would otherwise agree on most liberal causes. They view this as an existential concern and prioritize it over other issues like racism and social justice. These aren't bad faith actors that just want to hide their racism. These are real people with different beliefs, values, and priorities that motivate them to vote against liberals.

Also I've never once painted all Trump voters as low information voters and I don't think most are.

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I never said you did, and I didn't mean to suggest so. However, others in this thread have. I brought that up just as an example to better explain what I mean when I say "cartoon character".

I don't think education matters when its comes to someone's core values and beliefs.

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If you are talking about credentials and degrees, then yes I completely agree with you. However I really do think childhood education plays a significant role in how a person's core values and beliefs develop.